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Blurb statement not allowed; who wins?

1. Force
2. All-out, 15 meters

Depends on how you view the unbalancing the Force thing. Would be inclined to side Vitiate in a combative sense.

Vitiate

Just the novel?

Plagueis.

Force: Vitiate
All out: Plagueis, unless he doesn't bother with the sabers.

Vitiate shits on him completely.

^woah.

#Unexpected

My case for Plagueis is:

1. As a proxy for raw power and overall mastery, shifting the balance of the Force to the point that it had to flee and create the Chosen One through immaculate conception to stop him is more impressive than, say, creating some lightning storms. Vitiate's only feat that remotely compares is his initial performance of Nathema, but that was on a nexus and using the energies of 8000 sith lords, of whom the majority of sources suggest participated willingly.

2. In terms of combat feats, Plagueis's ability to vaporize squads of soldiers with uncharged telekinesis and to deflect blaster fire from hundreds of droids at once is more impressive than getting owned by a drug addled Revan on a dark side nexus, and only winning because he was able to charge his lightning on said nexus, which he won't be able to do here, not with Plagueis's own ranged attacks and speed feats.

3. Did I mention that all of Vitiate's feats at this point are on nexuses?

4. Even if Force power is a wash, Plagueis is much faster and deadlier up close.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
My case for Plagueis is:

1. As a proxy for raw power and overall mastery, shifting the balance of the Force to the point that it had to flee and create the Chosen One through immaculate conception to stop him is more impressive than, say, creating some lightning storms. Vitiate's only feat that remotely compares is his initial performance of Nathema, but that was on a nexus and using the energies of 8000 sith lords, of whom the majority of sources suggest participated willingly.

2. In terms of combat feats, Plagueis's ability to vaporize squads of soldiers with uncharged telekinesis and to deflect blaster fire from hundreds of droids at once is more impressive than getting owned by a drug addled Revan on a dark side nexus, and only winning because he was able to charge his lightning on said nexus, which he won't be able to do here, not with Plagueis's own ranged attacks and speed feats.

3. Did I mention that all of Vitiate's feats at this point are on nexuses?

4. Even if Force power is a wash, Plagueis is much faster and deadlier up close. uh huh

Originally posted by The Ellimist
My case for Plagueis is:

1. As a proxy for raw power and overall mastery, shifting the balance of the Force to the point that it had to flee and create the Chosen One through immaculate conception to stop him is more impressive than, say, creating some lightning storms. Vitiate's only feat that remotely compares is his initial performance of Nathema, but that was on a nexus and using the energies of 8000 sith lords, of whom the majority of sources suggest participated willingly.

2. In terms of combat feats, Plagueis's ability to vaporize squads of soldiers with uncharged telekinesis and to deflect blaster fire from hundreds of droids at once is more impressive than getting owned by a drug addled Revan on a dark side nexus, and only winning because he was able to charge his lightning on said nexus, which he won't be able to do here, not with Plagueis's own ranged attacks and speed feats.

3. Did I mention that all of Vitiate's feats at this point are on nexuses?

4. Even if Force power is a wash, Plagueis is much faster and deadlier up close. Those points do make sense. I can definitely see a case for Plagueis>Novel Vitiate, I think Vitiate's hype is what gets him where he is as far as the novel is concerned.

Revan wouldn't have been drugged going into the fight given he knows how to expel poisons and drugs from his body per PoD. He also wouldn't have been hindered by the nexus either considering he was drawing on both the Light and Darkside at the time. Whatever amp the nexus provided to Vitiate would have been negligible to his overall power unless you see nexuses as a multiplier rather then an addition to what you already have.

Vitiate being greater then Nihilius trumps the combative feats you mentioned as a power comparison.

Plagueis and Sidious were merely conduits of prophecy imho.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Revan wouldn't have been drugged going into the fight given he knows how to expel poisons and drugs from his body per PoD.

Ehhh, that's fair, if we ignore rust.



Not to the same extent as Vitiate, and Revan at this point usually uses the light side.



Korriban's nexus inhibited FotJ Luke, and Vjun's empowered Dooku; there's little evidence that nexuses affect stronger characters less.



That point was about direct combat feats, not guesses of raw power, which unbalancing the Force takes the cake in.



That doesn't change the fact that they were the first to be able to actually wrestle with the Force and win.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Revan at this point usually uses the light side.
The text specifically states that Revan opens up to both sides of the Force, making it clear that he was using the dark side same as the light, meanwhile hinting a oneness like focus, which makes his defeat a more impressive feat for Vitiate, tbh.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
My case for Plagueis is:



getting owned by a drug addled Revan on a dark side nexus, and only winning because he was able to charge his lightning on said nexus,




Ehm....Maybe there is something I am missing here, but it sounds like that drugged up Revan would probably be fine tens of hours later.....I know I am new here, and your a expert, but unless you can tell me where I am wrong, that statement is false.

Originally posted by Sinious
The text specifically states that Revan opens up to both sides of the Force, making it clear that he was using the dark side same as the light, meanwhile hinting a oneness like focus, which makes his defeat a more impressive feat for Vitiate, tbh. Revan never went into Oneness, as Revan is seen using his Force in balance techniques later on as well (Ant can tell you more about that than I can) but in SoR Revan is seen using both sides of the Force in unison. So Revan being in oneness during his fight against Vitiate is unlikely. Revan still would have been weakened for most of the fight, as he mostly used the light side during that encounter, only using the dark side for that specific attack. And Revan's alignment was light at the time as well.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not to the same extent as Vitiate, and Revan at this point usually uses the light side.



Korriban's nexus inhibited FotJ Luke, and Vjun's empowered Dooku; there's little evidence that nexuses affect stronger characters less.



That point was about direct combat feats, not guesses of raw power, which unbalancing the Force takes the cake in.



That doesn't change the fact that they were the first to be able to actually wrestle with the Force and win.

It states he was chanelling both the Dark and Lightside like twin rivers during his mediation before the fight.

Well I'm referring specifically to amps. Is there any proof that a more powerful individual is amped to the same degree as a weaker one? PoD would indicate that that's not the case since it noted Bane was more powerful in the Force then Kas'im yet Kas'im was still able to hold out for a time. If we went by your logic that disparity should have been amplified greatly to the point Kas'im should have been stomped.

Raw power is how we establish what someone is capable of in a combative sense. I didn't include unbalancing the Force because imo it's ambiguous.

But how am I supposed to quantify that? Yoda's apparently able to contend with a Sidious far more powerful then the one who helped Plagueis accomplish the task and yet I know his limits are far less then being able to effect things on a Universal scale let alone a Galactic one which is what the feat itself implies.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Revan never went into Oneness, as Revan is seen using his Force in balance techniques later on as well (Ant can tell you more about that than I can) but in SoR Revan is seen using both sides of the Force in unison. So Revan being in oneness during his fight against Vitiate is unlikely. Revan still would have been weakened for most of the fight, as he mostly used the light side during that encounter, only using the dark side for that specific attack. And Revan's alignment was light at the time as well.

There's nothing indicating that he favored one side over the other. In fact the scene prior where Revan is drawing on both sides of the Force in mediation suggest the opposite.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
It states he was chanelling both the Dark and Lightside like twin rivers during his mediation before the fight.


Yeah, it mentions it for a specific attack. It doesn't mean he's drawing on the dark side constantly, and if he is, it's only half of his reserves.



Kas'im and Bane were both dark siders, so the nexus would roughly cancel.



How's it ambiguous?

1. It shows that Plagueis and Sidious were a greater threat to the Force than Vitiate was.
2. It's something Vitiate certainly would've benefited from if he were capable of doing it.
3. It was done on their raw power, since they were just meditating and wrestling with it.
4. It's reasonable to conclude that doing this with the Force itself would require lots of power.



In the absence of all other evidence it would be reasonable to suggest that Yoda was below Plagueis for that reason. But he has stalemated Sidious, so we can't just ignore that.

By your logic, we should conclude that pre-Nathema Vitiate > novel Vitiate because the former's Nathema feat is more impressive than anything he does in the novel.

On the topic of Revan not being hindered by the nexus; him opening up both sides of the Force, logically, means that on a nexus his use of the Light side would be weakened and the Dark empowered. Also, I think I recall Ant pointing out evidence in the novel for the nexus hindering Revan (Revan felt weakened/clouded by the Dark Side's overwhelming presence, or something similar).

That's without mentioning that bringing the Force into perfect balance while using both the Light and Dark shits in the porridge of Star Wars' most fundamental themes and principles but, hey, Revan.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah, it mentions it for a specific attack. It doesn't mean he's drawing on the dark side constantly, and if he is, it's only half of his reserves.



Kas'im and Bane were both dark siders, so the nexus would roughly cancel.



How's it ambiguous?

1. It shows that Plagueis and Sidious were a greater threat to the Force than Vitiate was.
2. It's something Vitiate certainly would've benefited from if he were capable of doing it.
3. It was done on their raw power, since they were just meditating and wrestling with it.
4. It's reasonable to conclude that doing this with the Force itself would require lots of power.



In the absence of all other evidence it would be reasonable to suggest that Yoda was below Plagueis for that reason. But he has stalemated Sidious, so we can't just ignore that.

By your logic, we should conclude that pre-Nathema Vitiate > novel Vitiate because the former's Nathema feat is more impressive than anything he does in the novel.

I'm referring to the scene prior to the fight during his mediation.

But if it amps individuals to the same degree Bane should have received more of a benefit... That's why I think the effect is additive rather then multiplicative.

1. That doesn't place Plagueis above Vitiate. It places Plagueis and Sidious at the time above him.
2. Fair enough. Read above.
3. Fair enough Refer to 1.
4. Fair enough refer to the last section on my last response. TLDR: It's unmeasurable and doesn't make sense given the demonstrated limits of the individuals in question.

Right so we know that the feat they accomplished is not indicative of power at the level implied and thus I am at a loss on how we should measure it.

Not at all. That feat is measurable. Plagueis's is not.

Originally posted by ILS
On the topic of Revan not being hindered by the nexus; him opening up both sides of the Force, logically, means that on a nexus his use of the Light side would be weakened and the Dark empowered. Also, I think I recall Ant pointing out evidence in the novel for the nexus hindering Revan (Revan felt weakened/clouded by the Dark Side's overwhelming presence, or something similar).

That's without mentioning that bringing the Force into perfect balance while using both the Light and Dark shits in the porridge of Star Wars' most fundamental themes and principles but, hey, Revan.

That was before he had regained the Revan mask and began utilizing the Darkside in conjunction with the Light IIRC.

And Drew. Because he's shit.

Vitiate wins without the blurb. Revan is better than Darth Plagueis without it too.

I'd love to see your comparison.

Woah now Ant. Plagueis was still >= TPM Sidious.

Wait... Oh god.

;-=-0

^niglet

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/c0/96/77/c09677a7dcc044d9d67cd97ec89513c0.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctN5s8z3E8E&t=0m39s

:'(

Plagueis, lol.
We also have scaling from RotS Sidious, who sh!ts on Vitate.

Banite scaling + parity with TPM Sheev > Vitiate, yeah.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Banite scaling + parity with TPM Sheev > Vitiate, yeah.

So Elm, Did I forget something? Was Revan drugged in his fight with vitiate?

He was not.

Good to know even the best of the best can make a mistake from time to time...

I thought he would still be suffering from the symptoms since he had just been drugged not long before, but I forgot about his drug cleansing skill.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate shits on him completely.

Such and intelligent and well thought out post

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate shits on him completely.

Chimp level intelligence.

You already wrote a scathing response to that one. But I suppose that was such a great line that you needed to risk the redundancy anyway.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You already wrote a scathing response to that one. But I suppose that was such a great line that you needed to risk the redundancy anyway.

You really are not saying much

Originally posted by Nephthys
You already wrote a scathing response to that one. But I suppose that was such a great line that you needed to risk the redundancy anyway.

Just report all of the spam.

Plagueis gets annihilated.

Fffffff...