Why Valkorion is more powerful than Palpatine.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



AncientPower
For years we have witnessed the argument that Sidious unbalancing the Force was infact the product of the greatest Force feat of all time. I will prove why it is not.

Firstly and most importantly, the feat was the product of two Sith in unison:



Secondly, the feat was accomplished against no form of serious tangible resistance:





Instead the Force conceived the Chosen One, as a means of restoring the balance from the Sith threat which equated to both Sidious and Plagueis:



This was actually as a result of manipulating Darth Plagueis' own experiments:



This is generally misconstrued and even outright exaggerated to suggest that Sidious and Plagueis are of a premier threat. In actuality, Sidious and Plagueis together shifted the Force against no real form of resistance and Plagueis himself conceived the boy without his own knowledge, by the will of the Force.

This is often used as a counter argument against the Sith Emperor Vitiate, ironically indicating that only Plagueis and Sidious together have performed feats of greater import.

The Sith Emperor was capable of a galactic scale ritual in which all flora and fauna would perish and be consumed by the Sith Emperor himself so as to achieve godhood. Furthermore this act would reduce every star innthe galaxy to a drained black corruption, all planets would be turned to ash and the galaxy would be dead:



This is merely a greater manifestation of the Emperor's prior rituals, which is stated to be the power of the dark side taken to its extreme:





This ritual is dismissed by many for a number of reasons, which I will now seek to debunk as fallacious:

Firstly, we have the idea that the empowerment of a dark side nexus was a reauirement for the Emperor, this is in and of itself ridiculous. The dark side nexus of Dromund Kaas is a product of the Emperor's own rituals, at great expense to his own energy reserves:





The Dread Masters created the incredible dark side nexus of Oricon utilising a mixture of rituals, the seeds and the Phobis Devices:











Yet the combined power of the Dread Masters, and thus Oricon itself, are insignificant compared to the Emperor:



There is a very clear and obvious reason why the Emperor renders any dark side nexus completely insignificant compared to him. Because he absorbed the power of the strongest dark side nexus ever to occur during the Nathema ritual:



He is for all intents and purposes the very embodiment of the dark side itself:







Even Sith such as Darth Bane outgrew the artifacts and relics of ancient times:



Yet the rituals which Vitiate enacted, were far beyond Darth Bane's scope of comprehension:

AncientPower
The second claim made to dismiss Sith Emperor Vitiate's galactic ritual is that he required a Galactic War to fuel him, this is also clearly incorrect. The Emperor sent out numerous agents to enact the necessary sacrifice for the ritual, yet any one agent's success would have achieved that sacrifice:



So a correct measure would be millions of deaths, not the fallacious claim that galactic scale deaths are a requirement.

Considering all of this, one must ask the question which aid is more significant, the fact that Darth Plagueis and Darth Sidious had each other's power fueled by months of intense meditation or millions of Corellian sacrifices. There is no comparison whatsoever, an extremely powerful Sith Lord is immeasurably superior aid to a mere sacrifice of millions.

But the difference doesn't end here, there is an outstanding disadvantage that Vitiate suffered during the ritual that only further proves how fallacious the Sheev supporters dismissal of this feat is. Vitiate was suppressing the powers of his daughter Vaylin simultaneously:





Vitiate's ritual is absolutely and undeniably greater than that of the combined efforts of Darth Plagueis and Darth Sidious; and he was capable of performing the feat whilst simultaneously suppressing the powers of an extremely powerful Force user such as Vaylin, whom as a mere child telekinetically crushed numerous Knights of Zakuul.

Furthermore one must consider the fact that Vitiate is far from his prime as the Immortal Emperor Valkorion:



One must remember that Vitiate enacted the Ziost Cataclysm:





This act of destruction required no rituals as it had at Nathema, as it is pointed out that Vitiate post-Nathema had become so powerful that he no longer required such aid:



Noting that Valkorion had gained a degree of incorporeal immortality after these events, to a degree that even Reborn Emperor Palpatine failed to attain:



Compared to Reborn Palpatine:







Therefore it is entirely possible that Valkorion's superiority over his Vitiate incarnation would make the act of galactic destruction even easier for him to accomplish.

There is infact plenty in the way of evidence to suggest that Vitiate, was infact capable of consuming the galaxy without a ritual at all, given.the vision of what would happen if Revan was not stopped:

https://youtu.be/NAZOn0mPfTU

Naturally the question is why Vitiate didn't pursue this course of action, the answer is twofold. Firstly, upon return Vitiate wasn't as powerful as he would have been if Revan had succeeded:



Secondly, Vitiate became enlightened by the Ziost Catalysm and clearly disowned his desire for galactic extinction:



Naturally, the Sheev supporters will fall back onto the Force Storm power to claim that Palpatine has the most powerful Force feat in history:



His most powerful Force Storm was capable of far more damage than what he had done to the western side of Coruscant. It can't begin to compare to the desolation of the galaxy and the satellite galaxies surrounding it.

Valkorion reigns supreme.

Ursumeles
So...Quotes which put Sidious > Vitate, even as of RotS(I mention this, as most feats you mentionened are from this time) and Quotes which put DE Sidious(one as of RotS, as well) > Valk doesn't apply?
Also, Sidious feats are better.

AncientPower
So no argument then? Accolades have been dismissed handily before.

Ursumeles
Lawl. My argument was that Sidious is canonically superior. But I'll make another one, after eating.
I am waiting for you countering Sidious accolades, btw.

Nephthys
As Nai pointed out recently, they've all been countered already in many threads.

Anyway, bravo AP. This was an excellent read and a thorough debunking of some of the more egregious Sheevite delusions.

The_Tempest
Cite your sources, AP. It will expedite the inevitable dissection.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Nephthys
As Nai pointed out recently, they've all been countered already in many threads

Not really.

AncientPower
More than half of them are in-universe and most others are hardly definitive. Vitiate has the accolade of consuming the largest nexus the galaxy would ever see.

But that is assuming Legends accolades are even relevant when SWTOR is its own universe besides Canon and Legends.

AncientPower
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Cite your sources, AP. It will expedite the inevitable dissection.

I have no need to do so when they're all(mostly) from RTs.

The_Tempest
Per Pablo Hidalgo, SWTOR is Legends.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I have no need to do so when they're all(mostly) from RTs.

You absolutely need to cite your sources in an argument you make. That's, like, debating 101.

Get on it.

Ursumeles
Credit to ShootingNova:

-The Dark Side Sourcebook



-Dark Empire Endnotes


Also, Force Storms and the Lusyanka feat sh!t on all, what valk has done.

AncientPower
SWTOR is not influenced by Disney by any means, Lucasfilm themselves have stated they have no intention of meddling with SWTOR and that it exists within its own alternate SW-verse:

The_Tempest
Originally posted by AncientPower
SWTOR is not influenced by Disney by any means, Lucasfilm themselves have stated they have no intention of meddling with SWTOR and that it exists within its own alternate SW-verse:

When I get in front of my computer, I'll provide you with 2-3 more recent quotes than that from Hidalgo where he flat out says SWTOR is Legends. I already have 'em screenshotted for occasions like these. 👍

That will give you plenty of time to cite your sources and prepare your proverbial anus for the invasion that will commence.

AncientPower
All of which are irrelevant beyond his timeline.

Did you even read thd OP? Valkorion isn't just capable of unbalancing the Force, he can drain the Force from existence and all but destroy the entire galaxy. Who cares about Force Storms?

Ursumeles
Originally posted by AncientPower
he can drain the Force from existence
With prep, as Plagueis and Sidious have done with their unbalancing. Also, the Force > Galaxy.

Sidious Force Storms can consume all space smile

AncientPower
Originally posted by The_Tempest
When I get in front of my computer, I'll provide you with 2-3 more recent quotes than that from Hidalgo where he flat out says SWTOR is Legends. I already have 'em screenshotted for occasions like these. 👍

That will give you plenty of time to cite your sources and prepare your proverbial anus for the invasion that will commence.

I wouldn't hold your breath.

Given 99% of your debates don't actually contain content, I'll be sure to urinate from terror.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by AncientPower
Did you even read thd OP?

Reluctantly.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Valkorion isn't just capable of unbalancing the Force,

The OP never proves that.
But then its author thinks she's above petty things like citing sources, so more demanding aspects of discourse like "proving claims" are probably too much to ask.

Originally posted by AncientPower
he can drain the Force from existence and all but destroy the entire galaxy. Who cares about Force Storms?

Force storms can consume all of space and don't need centuries or galactic war to be triggered.

AncientPower
Originally posted by Ursumeles
With prep, as Plagueis and Sidious have done with their unbalance. Also, the Force > Galaxy.

Sidious Force Storms can consume all space smile

You mean like the months of meditation Plagueis and Sidious needed? Oh and they definitely didn't end the Force itself. Oh and the Force is merely part and parcel of said galaxy.

It 'threatened' to consume a completely undefined measurement of space in their vicinity. (Black holes can't destroy a galaxy, let alone the universe. Physics101)

The_Tempest
Originally posted by AncientPower
I wouldn't hold your breath.

Given 99% of your debates don't actually contain content, I'll be sure to urinate from terror.

Well I could always take a page from your playbook and just tell you SWTOR is Legends without citing the evidence and demand you concede. laughing out loud

cs_zoltan
http://puu.sh/s2MsO/25ae94e3e3.jpg

Beniboybling
It never really made sense to me that simply by killing a few billion people Vitiate could harness the power to destroy the galaxy, when Sidious was siphoning the life force of Byss' 20 billion population, and never achieved that kind of power.

On the other hand we know from KOTOR II and other sources that sudden simultaneous deaths cause immense disturbances in the Force. In fact as I recall the Triumvirate's plan was to harness such a disturbance to deafen everyone to the Force, a key concept in KOTOR II being how small acts can build into potent crescendos. A few quotes:
I infer that Vitiate is attempting to harness a similar disturbance, as opposed to simply siphoning the life force of some muggles, i.e. trigger some kind of wound in the Force that would begin expanding exponentially and consuming everything in its path, a wound that presumably fuel Vitiate with power of actual substance, and in turn give him the power to keep the wound expanding.

That is at least my interpretation and it puts a different spin on the feat, more akin to a chain reaction that triggers a feedback loop causing Vitiate to become exponentially more powerful. Rather than him simply being able to consume the entire galaxy Ziost style. Certainly a very clever and potent artifice but not necessarily a direct reflection of sheer Force might, but rather his intricate knowledge and mastery over Sith sorcery.

-------------------------

Now to make a few points in regards to Plagueis and Sidious unbalancing the Force.

1. My interpretation of the Force offering no resistance to their attempts to unbalance it merely reflects the extent of their sheer power. The presence of a powerful dark sider alone is enough to cause a significant disturbance in the Force, and by that logic we might in for that Plagueis and Palpatine's sheer presence was enough to leave the Force teetering on the edge between balance and imbalance, in which case all that required was push.

The alternative explanation being that the Force just decided to, concede? Why? Because it knew it was not strong enough to oppose them without creating a divine being? Same difference, only perhaps more impressive.

2. Sidious alone has done much more to unbalance the Force without any kinds of ritual involved, and much more than Valkorion has ever accomplished.

Let's review.

Upon murdering Darth Plagueis the dark side "anointed" Sidious, causing a surge in his strength that caused an imbalance in the Force seemingly even more potent than the one caused by himself and Plagueis years earlier:In fact, it was only after this "gravitic shift" had occurred did Maul sense that the Force was out of balance:And only post-TPM that the Jedi begin to realise this as well:Over the course of the successive decades Sidious went on to spread his dark influence throughout the entire galaxy, in an unprecedented display of power:And it was only upon his death that the balance was restored:However upon his resurrection in Dark Empire, the balance of the Force shifted again:Compare this to Valkorion, whose presence in the Force was simply never as dramatic. Not throughout the entirety of SWTOR is the Force ever noted to be imbalanced, to my knowledge, and this, unlike your ritual shtick, is a direct reflection of power in the dark side.

The_Tempest
Having a hard time formatting an embedded link here while I'm mobile, but here's one from Pablo. 👍

Ursumeles
Great post Beni thumb up

Beniboybling
Thanks.

And nice find Temp. smile

The_Tempest
Shanks.
As regards your response, it alludes to the omnipresent indictment of Valkoriate. Sidious accomplishes things more often than not singlehandedly and without the need of a thousand years and borrowed power from thousands of Sith Lords.

Look, AP: Beni cited his sources. Beni. Me. Even Neph.

The Ellimist
It should be noted that Vitiate had a thousand years to prepare his ritual and that he used a nexus, while Sidious and Plagueis just meditated for a few months.

Beyond the more cosmological impacts, Palpatine's other feats are simply much better than Valkorion's. Even his telepathic feats are.

The Ellimist
Also Beni just curbstomped lmao.

The_Tempest
Yeah, AP's entire worldview has been shattered like a cheap dish.

There's really no point in a point by point dissection until she cites her sources.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Beniboybling
The alternative explanation being that the Force just decided to, concede? Why? Because it knew it was not strong enough to oppose them without creating a divine being? Same difference, only perhaps more impressive.

Because the Force doesn't just blow people up with their midichlorians like the two thought could happen. It works indirectly. Indeed by birthing the Chosen One (or Plagueis birthing it), it solved the problem without even doing anything.

Beniboybling
Also just for the sake of reference:

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
Because the Force doesn't just blow people up with their midichlorians like the two thought could happen. It works indirectly. Indeed by birthing the Chosen One (or Plagueis birthing it), it solved the problem without even doing anything. I didn't suggest that it should have, but alternatively it could have just... resisted.

Or should we infer that any Tom, Dick or Harry could trigger the birth of a prophesied being if they only meditated for long enough?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
This was a good read.

Palpatine is still slightly supreme over the Immortal Emperor, though.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I didn't suggest that it should have, but alternatively it could have just... resisted.

Or should we infer that any Tom, Dick or Harry could trigger the birth of a prophesied being if they only meditated for long enough?

Resisting is still too direct an intervention. The Force just doesn't do shit like that. It's not like it's actually got a (recognizable) intelligence behind it.

Beniboybling
So your answer to my question is yes?

Nephthys
Obviously not everyone would be capable of doing something on that scale. Nobody denies that it's an impressive display that few could manage.

Beniboybling
The proportional god-tier response reflecting the premier power of those who instigated it, quite.

Regardless though not a sentient entity the Force still strives for a natural state of balance, in that respect any attempt to thwart the equilibrium would meet resistance, no different from an attempt to force a river to flow upstream.

DarthAnt66
Great post, AP.

carthage
AP failing as usual to convince anyone

The_Tempest
You defend the OP's textual diarrhea, my son?

Ursumeles
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Great post, AP Beni.
thumb up

DarthAnt66
"Great post" and "Beni" aren't compatible, lmfao.

Beniboybling
Thanks for ur support Ant.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"Great post" and "Beni" aren't compatible, lmfao.
Why did you said that then? mmm

darthbane77
Awesome thread further lending ammo against the Sheevites.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by darthbane77
Awesome thread further lending ammo against the Sheevites.
Interested in a Sheev vs Valk CaV/debate?

darthbane77
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Interested in a Sheev vs Valk CaV/debate? Hmm, not sure. Never done a CaV and not too sure I'm exactly good enough to do one yet. At least not while Ant and Ellim are still in the midst of theirs.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by darthbane77
Hmm, not sure. Never done a CaV and not too sure I'm exactly good enough to do one yet. At least not while Ant and Ellim are still in the midst of theirs.
If you want to, just PM me smile

darthbane77
Originally posted by Ursumeles
If you want to, just PM me smile Will do thumb up

AncientPower
Well given there's only one hilarious attempt at rebuttal, I'll slaughter it soon.

Deronn_solo
AP is demolishing, tbh.

AncientPower
@Beniboybling

You have quite aptly brought to attention one of the most outlying reasons why the double standard nexus wanking that is perpetuating by your Sheev brigade is so outright hilarious. You and those like you have wanked the idea that all of Vitiate's feats are nexus amplified. In the OP I destroyed that argument, but here lies the chief problem:



Just to rephrase this, the entire time Sidious was summoning Force Storms, he was being amplified constantly by the draining of 20,000,000,000 on Byss.

Clearly Force Storms are a feat Sidious achieved by utilising an enormous external source of practically unlimited energy.

Here comes the humorous part, Darth Sidious freely admits that they are an energy pool designed to sustain his 'experiments':



Something reinforced again in The Essential Guide:



Most interesting is the fact that, whereas the Immortal Emperor Valkorion has found a means by which to gain immortality via a ritual:



And then a death field, whilst a disembodied spirit, which not only ended Ziost, but also sapped energy from Ziost's moons and the local star:

http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4579461-0619578816-vZd4b.gif

Darth Sidious on the other hand, freely admits that he has not yet discovered this 'ultimate' secret:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4221875-3643360187-19943.jpg

Nor do we have evidence indicating this has changed, infact upon return to Byss after his death, we have the implication that he merely continued to do what he had done prior:



So far we've established that, the Sith Emperor Vitiate as a disembodied spirit can dominate entire armies, including Jedi:




Whilst creating immortal monstrosities out of pure dark side energy:



Oh and draining a planet, without a ritual, as the distinction is made here:



Whereas Darth Sidious:



Then not only have I established that Darth Sidious doesn't even know how to replicate Vitiate's world devouring power, we've established that the specially designed Byss pool of energy he drains from, is the supply he requires to continue his 'experiments.' What, pray tell, are these 'experiments'?



Now on to the last but certainly not least imbecilic claim.

Beni, you seek to lowball Emperor Vitiate's galactic scale destruction by fallaciously drawing parallels between him and the infinitely inferior Traya's attempt to end the Force with wounds. Not only have you ignore the fact that Meetra specifically states that Malachor V and Nathema aren't remotely on the same level:



You also somehow ignored a link that shows Vitiate's draining the galaxy in mere seconds:

https://youtu.be/NAZOn0mPfTU

DarthAnt66
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YxPFw7lfY0&t=7m21s

AncientPower
I'm not even close to done either, so we'll see where this goes.

The_Tempest
Start here:

Originally posted by AncientPower
More than half of them are in-universe and most others are hardly definitive. Vitiate has the accolade of consuming the largest nexus the galaxy would ever see.

But that is assuming Legends accolades are even relevant when SWTOR is its own universe besides Canon and Legends.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/swtor%20is%20legends_zpsbes627eh.png

SunRazer
I haven't read everything here, but the Force doesn't elapse at the same rate in visions as it does in reality. Plagueis had a Force Vision of what appeared to be Anakin Skywalker's future and the rise of Darth Vader, and that too took only seconds, or at best, minutes. Likewise, Tenebrous saw the future and perceived Sidious in seconds as well.

Visions aren't accurate indications of how long it would take to enact Vitiate's ritual or how long the ritual itself would take.

AncientPower
It isn't even implied to be a ritual anymore. laughing out loud

Beniboybling
AP was that supposed to be a rebuttal to me? laughing

SunRazer
My point is that the time elapsed in the Visions don't indicate the time that will elapse in reality.

Is this supposed to be the galaxy-killing plan he was going to enact in Act III? If so, that's definitely a ritual, and it required the simultaneous deaths of billions to initiate it. I'm not sure why it's being listed here.

AncientPower
Well I'm referring to the mere second in which the galaxy itself appears.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Start here:



http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/swtor%20is%20legends_zpsbes627eh.png

Emperordmb
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Start here:



http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/swtor%20is%20legends_zpsbes627eh.png
Thank god, we can put to rest that bullshit about SWTOR being neither canon or legends and having its own special continuity

The_Tempest
AP's clearly much too intimidated to cross me on this and too prideful to concede.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Thank god, we can put to rest that bullshit about SWTOR being neither canon or legends and having its own special continuity

?? Wait people thought this?....

It started in the Legends continuity....sooo...why wouldn't it be Legends?..

The_Tempest
Because words are hard, man.

AncientPower
You mean you're trying to fall back onto irrelevant accolades long since replaced by Force and Destiny, Temp?

The Ellimist
Content is not "replaced".

The_Tempest
Originally posted by AncientPower
You mean you're trying to fall back onto irrelevant accolades long since replaced by Force and Destiny, Temp?

First:

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Start here:



http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/swtor%20is%20legends_zpsbes627eh.png

smile

Second, Force & Destiny didn't replace anything lmao.

And if that's the case, then your entire argument is stillborn since F&D also says the feats of ancient Jedi and Sith can't be taken at face value since they may very well be exaggerated and hyperbolic.

You're not ready to take me on. I've got you boxed in. Concede and take your place at my feet.

AncientPower
It is when the only ones relevant to both of the characters in question actually refrain from dictating to either side. It went from definitive to debatable in a very quick space of time. Even Darth Plagueis, besides a publishing blurb, fails to state definitively in the narrative whether he is or isn't the most powerful.

But that's only another facet of the argument I can make here.

It is telling that Vitiate completely absorbed and weilds the power of the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see, as in larger than Sidious' 'chaotic nexus' of dark side energy.

AncientPower
I was ready ten years ago, or maybe you've forgotten. laughing out loud

The_Tempest
You aren't particularly memorable lol. Now make your case, servant.

Originally posted by AncientPower
But that's only another facet of the argument I can make here.

It is telling that Vitiate completely absorbed and weilds the power of the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see, as in larger than Sidious' 'chaotic nexus' of dark side energy.

Nathema is a planet. Sidious is a person.

A planet is larger than a person.

AncientPower
We've both undergone makeovers since those days.

Yeh, the wording is not geometrical. laughing out loud

The_Tempest
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Now make your case, servant.

The Ellimist
Where is it stated that Nathema is more potent than Sidious?

And most of that went into making him immortal.

AncientPower
I've already begun, pray I don't finish, big G.

FreshestSlice
The Force still exists on Nathema. It's just "corrupted."

The_Tempest
Originally posted by AncientPower
I've already begun, pray I don't finish, big G.

What you've offered thus far has been nothing short of LeGenD-tier stupidity. All I'm praying for is something better than that.

AncientPower
Then he does the same thing all over again 1,300 years later at Ziost, but this time he doesn't need a ritual or any aid, or even physical form to perform it. He also drains power from the nearby star and causes power fluctuations in a space station from massive distances.

AncientPower
Originally posted by The_Tempest
What you've offered thus far has been nothing short of LeGenD-tier stupidity. All I'm praying for is something better than that.

You honestly think your God complex is going to work on me? Pitiful Gideon, pitiful.

The_Tempest
My prayers go unanswered. erm

Originally posted by AncientPower
Then he does the same thing all over again 1,300 years later at Ziost, but this time he doesn't need a ritual or any aid, or even physical form to perform it. He also drains power from the nearby star and causes power fluctuations in a space station from massive distances.

First, how does this address any of my objections?

Second, Nathema is established as the largest Force nexus, not the most potent lol. (As I said.)

Third, the SWTORE repeatedly mentions that Nathema only prolonged Vitiate's life, it didn't actually grant him immortality.

Fourth, the SWTOR website never says Vitiate destroys Ziost without ritual or aid. It says "rumors" persist of similar catastrophes, but that Ziost represents a "clear display" of such power.

AncientPower
Firstly, because it isn't directed at you.

Secondly, 'largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see' does infact pertain to both size and potency, given the effects of said nexus were the most damaging in the mythos. Malachor V is a footnote by comparison, for example. It is self-explanatory at this point.

Thirdly, it granted him immortality, something he could later pass on to Scourge. Kinda the whole point of Scourge betraying Revan.

Fourth, a ritual requires a physical presence. The codex is quite clearly making a distinction between Nathema and Ziost, the first was the result of a ritual and the second was the result of pure *corrosive* power.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by AncientPower
Firstly, because it isn't directed at you.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Start here:



http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/swtor%20is%20legends_zpsbes627eh.png

Originally posted by AncientPower
Secondly, 'largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see' does infact pertain to both size and potency, given the effects of said nexus were the most damaging in the mythos. Malachor V is a footnote by comparison, for example. It is self-explanatory at this point.

Size and potency are distinct. You're certainly free to present the argument that Nathema was the most potent nexus because of its effects, but you've failed spectacularly to defend the notion that the Encyclopedia really meant "most powerful dark side nexus" when all it said was "largest dark side nexus."

Which leads us back to that critical fact that... a planet is larger than a person. no expression

Originally posted by AncientPower
Thirdly, it granted him immortality, something he could later pass on to Scourge. Kinda the whole point of Scourge betraying Revan.

The Encyclopedia and codex state the ritual merely prolonged his life:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/swtore%20vitiate_zpsccocubym.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/swtor%20codex%20vitiate_zpsmfop5hwy.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/swtore%20vitiate%203_zpsethgktc7.png

And both Encyclopedia and codex say immortality was still the as-of-yet unattained true goal:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/swtore%204_zpstitzyltv.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/swtore%20vitiate%202_zpsxzyknbwz.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/swtore%20vitiate%205_zpsxqe1ufso.png

So... nah.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Fourth, a ritual requires a physical presence.

According to... whom?

Originally posted by AncientPower
The codex is quite clearly making a distinction between Nathema and Ziost, the first was the result of a ritual and the second was the result of pure *corrosive* power.

Indeed the codex is making a distinction: between whispered rumors and clear displays. Not sure what the point of bracketing the word corrosive in asterisks is supposed to do for your argument: clearly the effect on Nathema was corrosive as well lol.

The Ellimist
AP, you should either address the TOR-Legends thing or concede; pretending it's not there looks pretty childish.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by AncientPower
Then he does the same thing all over again 1,300 years later at Ziost, but this time he doesn't need a ritual or any aid, or even physical form to perform it. He also drains power from the nearby star and causes power fluctuations in a space station from massive distances.
That's great. Too bad KotET says the Force is only corrupted there. Guess BioWare doesn't care as much about continuity as you do. Nathema actually makes people who go there more powerful, not less powerful.

Nephthys
erm

Beniboybling
Y'know AP, its time's like this that I'm reminded just how terrible a debater you are. smileOriginally posted by AncientPower
@Beniboybling

You have quite aptly brought to attention one of the most outlying reasons why the double standard nexus wanking that is perpetuating by your Sheev brigade is so outright hilarious. You and those like you have wanked the idea that all of Vitiate's feats are nexus amplified.Translation: In light of my inability to rebut your actual arguments I'm going to offer some vague rejoiner, before throwing in a red herring, and then proceeding to use it as a platform to spam more quotes, more cringe inducing ad hominems and more baseless self-praise.

My response:

https://media.giphy.com/media/d40ImzxOmRC0M/giphy.gif

But really AP, anyone with an IQ score above the single digits can spot this tacky, tactless attempt at evasion, or rather, barring Anthony, I'm pretty sure we can all recognise this for the automatic concession that it is.

That said at least you made an effort to post something (and you actually sourced your evidence this time!), so I'll respond, and maybe after that you can get back to the breadth of the argument you were supposed to be rebutting. thumb up

But for starters, let's address that aspect of the OP, so we can stop pretending that you've "destroyed" anything.

Now, your argument seems to consist of three main points.
That Vitiate was instrumental in creating the nexus on Dromund Kaas at "great expense" of his own power and therefore, shouldn't benefit from it.

That the Dread Masters were insignificant to Vitiate and therefore so was the potent nexus on Oricon.

That Vitiate moved beyond nexuses by consuming the most powerful in history to become uber stronk and immortal.
So let's see how each of these hold up under scrutiny (hint: poorly.)

#1

First, let's do some fact checking, and remind ourselves that Dromund Kaas was already strong in the dark side prior to the Emperor arriving there:And in regards to how strong? Well, simply take note of the fact that thousands of years later, Sidious considered the "transcendent vortex of energy" Plagueis created on Aborah to be akin to something "he would have expected to encounter only on Korriban or some other Sith world."

At which point said Sith planets, such as Ziost, Korriban and indeed Dromund Kaas, had lost much of their luster since the Sith golden age, or in other words, Kaas would have been perhaps more than a "transcendent vortex of energy" when Vitiate discovered it.

The fact that Vitiate was seemingly drawn to this planet because of its tremendous power (see above) only reflecting his desire to harness it, equally telling is the fact the Emperor chose to perform his Sith sorcery within the walls of the Dark Temple, a Sith tomb he had constructed that's architecture typically enhanced and focused the power of the dark side:Moreover the Sith Citadel also appeared to be a focal point for the planet's dark energy:Which begs the question in both cases of why, when this nexus is supposedly oh so out grown and insignificant, and of course the answer is simple, because it was not outgrown, and Vitiate, being a reasonably intelligent fellow, instead sought to harness it. thumb up

Secondly we have the insinuation that because it was of "great expense" to the Emperor to bolster said nexus that somehow he wouldn't have been able to benefit from it? Well that logic is frankly incomplete and really doesn't follow on when we consider that Vitiate had ample time to recover whatever was lost and then proceed to reap what he had sown.

#2

Well first of all let's interrogate the evidence of this:
Which is said by a subjective source. And here in lies are first problem, for though the Wrath is personally familiar with the power of the Dread Masters, they have never fought nor even been in the presence of Vitiate, and therefore knows very little of his capabilities bar exaggerated legend and rumour.

Or rather, from an in-universe perspective, the Wrath's opinion is pretty baseless.

But let's say AP that I throw you a bone regardless and we infer authorial intent. Does the fact that their power is "insignificant" in comparison to his own really make their power insignificant to him as a resource? Well no. Not when Vitiate went to significant pains to siphon the power of those far lesser to them, such as his Hands:And such as spirits of those enemies he entombed in the Dark Temple:Then there's also Revan:Who'd I'd remind you both the Wrath and Darth Marr also seems to be of the opinion is insignificant in comparison towards:Let that all sink even for a moment, particularly the fact that even the lowliest of the Emperor's servants, the kind that the Wrath effortlessly strangulated is still seemingly worth Vitiate actively drawing strength from. And yet a vast power of a planetary nexus isn't? Yeah not likely.

#3

Well I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but with this you've essentially nailed the final coffin in your own case here. Let's just consider for a moment that by absorbing the power of a planetary nexus Vitiate "extends his life and vastly increases his capacity as a practitioner of the Force."

Or rather demonstrates pretty compelling proof that Valkorion can achieve vast gains from a planetary nexus after all. "But teh were 8000 Sith Lords!" you say "and Valkorion is much stronker now!"

But then you went and raised Ziost as well, oh dear, let's review:More considerable gains for Valkorion from harnessing the power that can be from the energies of a planet. thumb up

Granted he drained the whole thing dry in both instances but think relatively for a moment, if Valkorion consuming a planet strong in the dark side is going to result in a permanent and considerable, if not vast transformation in power, him simply drawing on one is going to confer some sizeable amps, and he's certainly not at a point where that kind of power is mere trinkets and baubles to him. Not in the slightest.

Beniboybling
So now that we've reestablished that Vitiate is very much in the buisness of nexuses, let's mop up the rest of your points.Sorry AP but you've dropped the ball again, this time by conveniently forgetting that Palpatine's most powerful Force storm was conjured before the Pinnacle Moon, in Hutt Space, billions of light years away from Byss.

http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/12/124590/4293509-3582770816-19945.jpgAnd of course, as your own sources state, Palpatine's use of said life energies were restricted to use within the Imperial Citadel, not in far flung locations such as the aforementioned:Nor in his Dark Side Compendium does Palpatine describe Byss as an instrumental aspect in conjuring these phenomena, of even an aspect at all:

https://i.imgur.com/9bKMtwr.png

Which rather have its origins within the body of the wielder. Indeed it is instead a reflection of "his own dark power".

http://i.imgur.com/WK8WuIh.png

On the other hand you've failed to provide any conclusive evidence that the aforementioned "experiments" include Force storms. So I would suggest conceding that point, yeah.

Sustain being the key word here. Not create, facilitate or make able, but to sustain that which has already been fashioned. Now what need could Palpatine possibly have for Byss to sustain his experiments, that he himself, the "the Dark Side's most powerful expression", could not manage? Well dear, consider that Palpatine is not only barely ever seen on Byss, but is busy running a Galactic Empire, or rather that being otherwise engaged could benefit from a source of independent, constant energy to keep his experiments going (and his various lackeys empowered).

Altogether not sure how this paints Valkorion as Palpatine's superior, only Palpatine as smarter than Valkorion for employing such an efficient artifice, the latter, for whatever reason, failing to demonstrate the same brilliance, or perhaps simply could not accomplish it. mmm

As Temp has already pointed out, Valkorion was not immortal, simply long-lived. A feat accomplished by various ancient Sith who came before him as Darth Plagueis himself notesmessedith Lords who Palpatine, the dark side's most powerful expression, surpassed. Palpatine's master, Darth Plagueis, also appeared to have discovered how to extend his life as well:And Sidious surpassed him too.

On the other hand true immortality is described as for Valkorion, sadly, an impossible goal that he could never acheive:

http://i.imgur.com/0VC5gqY.png

Shame.

Beniboybling
Oh yes, Vitiate's ability to effect the galaxy in potent ways as a spirit is indeed impressive, and certainly more than Sheev ever accomplished (well aside from clawing his way out of the bodiless void to tear apart the very fabric of the universe and transmigrate his crippled essence across the breadth of the galaxy -- but we won't split hairs) however through either a conveniently selective memory (again) or simply gross oversight (probably the latter) you've forgotten that at the point of death, Vitiate was a babbling mess:Who's disembodied form had to be taken to Yavin 4 were it was indeed indisposed:

http://i.imgur.com/jToDjc2.png

This being of course without the convenience of a potent dark side nexus on which to attach himself to, but at the very least Palpatine didn't need his lackeys to come and pick him up. Lmao.

Anyway, it was only after being taken to Yavin 4, a planet described as Satele as on "another level entirely" to Oricon, itself "immeasurably strong in with the dark side", where his essence was stored within a Massassi temple designed to focus this immense powersadNote that the above refer to before Exar Kun further augmented their effectiveness.)

And having fed off thousands of deaths caused by the conflict:Was our dear Sith Emperor finally able to return and perform the feats that he did.

But what of Valkorion? Well at the very least dying didn't drive him insane but he certainly doesn't seem to be in a position to conjure up dark side monstrosities or consume planets, instead he seems entirely dependent on the player both to survive death and do anything at all, including the defeat of his Children and reclaim of his throne:

http://i.imgur.com/Rkg81q8.png
So why should we assume that when stripped of external aid, Valkorion would be any better off than Sheev? I see none, and in this respect it begs the question as to in what ways he surpasses Valkorion in incorporeal mastery.

On the other hand one critical and recurrent factor in the deaths of Valkorion is that it weakens him. Both after he was struck down the Hero of Tython (see above), and by Arcann:Whereas upon his rebirth in Dark Empire, Palpatine's deaths are described as doing nothing to diminish or even slow the advance of his power, instead with each body he instead came back stronger.And indeed was able to effortlessly shed his coporeal form at will:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4293551-3507920747-19944.jpg

So what exactly, does Valkorion have that compares? Getting trapped in a holocron?And at last, AP rebuts a point.

Shame said rebuttal was hopelessly pathetic. erm

Anyway:

1. Nathema is irrelevant here. Vitiate wasn't going to trigger the ritual by consuming another planet per se, but simply causing countless mass death, which is yes, what created Malachor.

2. The speed of which Vitiate's galaxy draining ritual is also irrelevant to what ultimately triggers it, but regardless as Sunrazer rightly addressed, a Force vision can't be expected to accurately reflect time frames regardless.

And in case you believed this was proof no ritual was involved, the Wrath learns otherwise in SoR.

And I believe that covers everything, I look forward to your response. wink

AncientPower
My god, that's your reply? It is as if ignoring the main point of the thread is your only means of winning.... Oh, right.

Beniboybling
laughing

You mean to inflate your own ego and wank Valkorion? Sry.

AncientPower
Don't worry, I'll be sure to point out the several pieces of inaccurate information in your replies and see that your farcical attempt at redirecting the thread away from the genuinely important factor in this argument, is absolutely exposed for what it is.

But I'll deal with Temp first, funny how the PT Brigade has to come in at strength against me to make its arguments.

Beniboybling
Alright AP, I look forward to discovering what the true masterful purpose of this thread really is.

If not to make you appear like a clown. smile

AncientPower
Stop trying to be Tempest. laughing out loud

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The thread appears to have backfired. The PT Brigade is indeed the superior combative force. smile

Beniboybling
thumb up smile

AP is going through denial atm, but she'll realise this soon.Originally posted by AncientPower
Stop trying to be Tempest. laughing out loud I'd rebut this with a "stop trying to be Y!" - but there is really noone quite as awful as you. smile

The Ellimist
Originally posted by The Ellimist
AP, you should either address the TOR-Legends thing or concede; pretending it's not there looks pretty childish.

LMFAO

AncientPower
I already addressed it, you people have awful attention spans.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Can everyone pls accept that Valkorion is inferior to Palpatine in every way, shape, and form? smile

And I'm contemplating the Plagueis argument...

Beniboybling
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Can everyone pls accept that Valkorion is inferior to Palpatine in every way, shape, and form? smile http://replygif.net/i/163.gif

The Ellimist
yes

AncientPower
Plagueis and Sidious combined with months of intense meditation can unbalance the Force. Valkorion can end the galaxy and the Force simultaneously.

Obvious winner here folks.

The Ellimist
I think I can claim credit for initially pushing the Plagueis > Vitiate movement, but damn, Beni/Azronger/ILS/etc. have really stepped it up. Lightsnake would be proud. thumb up

AncientPower
If ignoring every major argument against it is what you refer to as stepping things up sure. laughing out loud

Beniboybling
The best part is watching the TOR phags flounder, yeah. smile

The_Tempest
Originally posted by AncientPower
But I'll deal with Temp first,

That's an interesting euphemism for "concede."

Originally posted by AncientPower
I already addressed it, you people have awful attention spans.

We all apparently missed it. Link?

The Ellimist
So essentially:

1. Unbalancing the Force to the point that it flees you and then immaculately conceives a Forceful being, a literal in-universe deus ex machina, for the sole purposes of stopping you, in accordance to an ancient prophecy regarding the most cosmically pivotal moment in the Star Wars mythos, is more impressive than anything Vitiate/Valkorion has ever done. We know this because the Force never bothered to conceive a Forceful being to fight him.

2. Meditating together for a few months is not as heavy of an amp as having thousands of years to plot on one of the most powerful nexuses in the galaxy, and then requiring that nexus, the energies of biological life in the galaxy, and then the energies of a galactic war, to pull off.

3. Following the death of his master, Darth Sidious receives a massive power boost that shakes the cosmos, has the ancient sith spirits singing him praises from across space and time, has the dark side itself annointing him, and generates a greater unbalance in the Force than said previous meditation.

4. Darth Sidious by TCW has create a dark cloud of the Force that spreads across the entire galaxy, which has allowed him to diminish the precognitive abilities of 10,000 Jedi, including Master Yoda.

5. Darth Sidious by Dark Empire is a walking Force nexus whose very presence distorts space-time.

6. Darth Sidious by Dark Empire can conjure from pure willpower storms of the dark side capable of ripping the surfaces off of worlds, and which threaten to "consume all of space".

7. In his final death, every Jedi who had ever died teamed up to keep Sidious from returning.

8. Beyond all of these clear indicators for Palpatine's superiority, there is more than one statement of it that seems to extend beyond past sith lords, and he just generally has far superior feats, from burying the Lusankya to bending lightsaber blades. Valkorion, meanwhile, does everything that's really impressive on a nexus with prep, and otherwise has the showing of...killing Darth Marr (but that was on a nexus too...)

Sidious wins thumb up

The_Tempest
erm

Ell, I think you're forgetting that SWTOR obviously isn't Legends for reasons too obvious to cite and Vitiate achieved immortality despite numerous sources stating otherwise and largest nexus ever really means most powerful nexus ever and I'm pretty sure you can see how this is pertinent

SunRazer
Originally posted by AncientPower
Well I'm referring to the mere second in which the galaxy itself appears.

My point is that it would not necessarily take a mere second in reality. Time in visions can elapse much quicker than in reality, and they tend to do so.

S_W_LeGenD

S_W_LeGenD
In my follow-up response, I will expand on Vitiate's multi-tasking efforts (and how they offer a new insight into his power-progression) and address Palpatine's wank.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Can everyone pls accept that Valkorion is inferior to Palpatine in every way, shape, and form? smile

And I'm contemplating the Plagueis argument...
thumb up thumb up smile smile yes thumb up smile smile

Sinious
SWTOR wank is like Spartacus against Rome at this point smile

AncientPower
Valkorion can end a galaxy and instantly death field worlds whilst sapping power from nearby stars, pre-prime.

FreshestSlice
And still somehow couldn't mindrape one Obi-Wan tier Jedi.

AncientPower
Who had aid and a ton of preparation, because DE Luke didn't break DE Palpatine's mindrape because of Leia's aid.

Also LOL @ Kenobi tier.

FreshestSlice
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. And calling the Outlander Obi-Wan tier is generous, especially for Chapter 1 when they can just be a random as **** Smuggler. Face it. Valkorion is shit.

Nephthys
The Outlander just has godly willpower. Valkorion even implies it's comparable to Revans.

Beniboybling
That's right, prepare the damage control. smileOriginally posted by AncientPower
Valkorion can end a galaxy and instantly death field worlds whilst sapping power from nearby stars, pre-prime. What's that AP? You're beginning to froth at the mouth.

The_Tempest
Is there an ETA on your grand rebuttal, AP?

Azronger
So what the hell is even being argued here? That Valkorion can one-shot the galaxy?

Nephthys
Indeed, I dunno why we'r arguing over something he's already confirmed to be able to do.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
So now that we've reestablished that Vitiate is very much in the buisness of nexuses, let's mop up the rest of your points.
You have established nothing concrete in this regard, my friend. You misinterpreted a statement and attempted to connect (unrelated) dots. Your failure is not even amusing. thumb up

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sorry AP but you've dropped the ball again, this time by conveniently forgetting that Palpatine's most powerful Force storm was conjured before the Pinnacle Moon, in Hutt Space, billions of light years away from Byss.

http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/12/124590/4293509-3582770816-19945.jpg

And of course, as your own sources state, Palpatine's use of said life energies were restricted to use within the Imperial Citadel, not in far flung locations such as the aforementioned:

Nor in his Dark Side Compendium does Palpatine describe Byss as an instrumental aspect in conjuring these phenomena, of even an aspect at all:

https://i.imgur.com/9bKMtwr.png

Which rather have its origins within the body of the wielder. Indeed it is instead a reflection of "his own dark power".

http://i.imgur.com/WK8WuIh.png

On the other hand you've failed to provide any conclusive evidence that the aforementioned "experiments" include Force storms. So I would suggest conceding that point, yeah.
Distance between Byss and Pinnacle Moon Base is billions of light years?

Spanning over 100,000 LIGHT YEARS across, the galaxy is massive and filled with as many marvels as perilous dangers.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

The entire galaxy is much smaller than that, my friend. laughing out loud

So your argument is that a vast distance would hinder Palpatine's ability to siphon energy of his subjects? You don't think that Palpatine was able to fuel his power with his energy-siphoning effort? Good.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sustain being the key word here. Not create, facilitate or make able, but to sustain that which has already been fashioned. Now what need could Palpatine possibly have for Byss to sustain his experiments, that he himself, the "the Dark Side's most powerful expression", could not manage? Well dear, consider that Palpatine is not only barely ever seen on Byss, but is busy running a Galactic Empire, or rather that being otherwise engaged could benefit from a source of independent, constant energy to keep his experiments going (and his various lackeys empowered).

Altogether not sure how this paints Valkorion as Palpatine's superior, only Palpatine as smarter than Valkorion for employing such an efficient artifice, the latter, for whatever reason, failing to demonstrate the same brilliance, or perhaps simply could not accomplish it. mmm
Vitiate was able to siphon energy of his subjects from light-years away, irrespective of where he was present and what he was doing. Other beings were like a reservoir of energy to him, to fuel his power and satiate his hunger. thumb up

Originally posted by Beniboybling
As Temp has already pointed out, Valkorion was not immortal, simply long-lived. A feat accomplished by various ancient Sith who came before him as Darth Plagueis himself notes:

Sith Lords who Palpatine, the dark side's most powerful expression, surpassed. Palpatine's master, Darth Plagueis, also appeared to have discovered how to extend his life as well:

And Sidious surpassed him too.

On the other hand true immortality is described as for Valkorion, sadly, an impossible goal that he could never acheive:

http://i.imgur.com/0VC5gqY.png

Shame.
Your shortsightedness has touched new heights. thumb up

The revelation is that (true) immortality - everlasting existence - is impossible in Star Wars, irrespective of strength, because a being is likely to face resistance during its exploits and meet its end one way or the other.

Even The Father (supposedly the most powerful Force-user ever) could not live forever:

The Father knew his days were numbered -- facing his impending demise, he needed to find another to keep the balance. His goal was the same described in an ancient Jedi prophecy -- the rise of a Chosen One who will bring balance to the Force.

Taken from Star Wars Databank

Valkorion was not an exception to the aforementioned rule either but he was not dying or even close, his enemies were able to trap him in his own device. Equally important is the fact that he was able to cheat death several times and that in itself is an accomplishment that few could hope to match.

Darth Plagueis doesn't even registers in the topic of immortality. He was bordering corporeal immortality when his apprentice killed him. So when did he cheat death? Give me a single example.

Darth Plagueis's blurbs are utter bullshit by the way.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Oh yes, Vitiate's ability to effect the galaxy in potent ways as a spirit is indeed impressive, and certainly more than Sheev ever accomplished (well aside from clawing his way out of the bodiless void to tear apart the very fabric of the universe and transmigrate his crippled essence across the breadth of the galaxy -- but we won't split hairs)
Palpatine's ability to cheat death on his own (the first time) is suspect in the light of involvement of following:

- Sate Pestage - an agent of Palpatine
- Palpatine's own assessment:

"Your spirits guided me back to this life when I was destroyed by Vader... and his children... My aging clone body will soon die. I need healing... Now."

For more information, kindly check Dark Empire III: Empire's End.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
however through either a conveniently selective memory (again) or simply gross oversight (probably the latter) you've forgotten that at the point of death, Vitiate was a babbling mess:

Who's disembodied form had to be taken to Yavin 4 were it was indeed indisposed:

This being of course without the convenience of a potent dark side nexus on which to attach himself to, but at the very least Palpatine didn't need his lackeys to come and pick him up. Lmao.
Funny that you accuse fellow member AncientPower of conveniently selective memory in this case when it holds true for you actually:

Vitiate, at that point, had suffered two major setbacks:-

1. His most ambitious ritual was foiled
2. His Voice was struck down

Both developments, collectively, took a massive toll on his well-being and sapped his energy to an extent that he was barely able to function as a consequence. And even at his lowest point, he managed to collapse a hall of the Dark Temple in a last-ditch effort to crush his enemies beneath tons of rock. They escaped somehow.

Even more telling is this part in the second image:

"The Imperial Guard has moved the Emperor's body."

They moved his body (i.e. corporeal vessel); not his disembodied existence. A living being cannot move something intangible from one place to another.

Vitiate, in disembodied form, could move to Yavin IV on his own or by possessing someone. More importantly, this example is not an indication of his true abilities outside a corporeal vessel. We get to see that on Ziost.

For the remainder of your point, see above.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
But what of Valkorion? Well at the very least dying didn't drive him insane but he certainly doesn't seem to be in a position to conjure up dark side monstrosities or consume planets, instead he seems entirely dependent on the player both to survive death and do anything at all, including the defeat of his Children and reclaim of his throne:

So why should we assume that when stripped of external aid, Valkorion would be any better off than Sheev? I see none, and in this respect it begs the question as to in what ways he surpasses Valkorion in incorporeal mastery.
I take that as an interpretation of the events in KoTFE story arc.

It is in direct contradiction with this revelation:

"Voices... Hands... Children... I no longer require those crude vessels. At long last I am truly free." (Valkorion)

- and Vitiate's showings on Yavin IV, Ziost and Odessen.

For more information, go through this blog: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/cheating-corporeal-death-and-abilities-outside-a-c/126610/

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
On the other hand one critical and recurrent factor in the deaths of Valkorion is that it weakens him. Both after he was struck down the Hero of Tython (see above), and by Arcann:
My take on this is that Valkorion was not able to bring his full power to bear in the body of the Outlander, an inferior corporeal vessel for him. This is also apparent from the fact that Valkorion enhanced the potential of the Outlander on Odessen in order to enable him to challenge his children (see Chapter 12 of KoTFE).

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Whereas upon his rebirth in Dark Empire, Palpatine's deaths are described as doing nothing to diminish or even slow the advance of his power, instead with each body he instead came back stronger.
This is the point you missed:

The ability to transcend death is not exclusive to Jedi: Emperor Palpatine and the ancient Sith Lords Marka Ragnos managed to preserve their psyches after their deaths, but it seems their spiritual forms were restricted by certain boundaries and limitations. Palpatine's spirit required cloned bodies to manifest his powers; Marka Ragnos's and Exar Kun's spirits were essentially trapped within Sith-engineered temples for thousands of years.

Taken from Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

The quotes you cited are irrelevant in the aforementioned context. Among these quotes, the third one, in particular, implies that Palpatine became more powerful during the events of Dark Empire than ever before.

By the way:

With each rebirth, he grew stronger.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex Entry titled "The Fall of Valkorion."

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And indeed was able to effortlessly shed his coporeal form at will:
Debunked above.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So what exactly, does Valkorion have that compares? Getting trapped in a holocron?
laughing out loud

Following points have been established so far:

1. Vitiate's mastery over life and death; moreso than Darth Plagueis? Check

2. Vitiate sought worlds strong in the Dark Side to establish Academies? Check

3. Vitiate demonstrated superior abilities in disembodied form than Palpatine? Check

4. Vitiate demonstrated superior Force Drain powers than Palpatine? Check

5. Palpatine cheated death first time (with) external aid? Check

6. Vitiate did not cheat death by latching himself to the Outlander? Check

The_Tempest
LeGenD is so desperate to have his voice heard here.

Beniboybling
thumb up thumb up thumb up

And his rebuttals are so god-awful I'm not even sure it's worth responding to.

The_Tempest
Just smile and nod politely.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
thumb up thumb up thumb up

And his rebuttals are so god-awful I'm not even sure it's worth responding to.
So you have nothing to offer in your defense?

Concession accepted.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Just smile and nod politely. Lmao.

Beniboybling
Also did anyone else notice the part were Leg debunked his own case? I found that quite amusing.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Also did anyone else notice the part were Leg debunked his own case? I found that quite amusing.
Nope, I didn't read the post yet.
But...WHEN?

S_W_LeGenD
You two losers won't dare to challenge my arguments. But they will help AncientPower in this debate nonetheless. thumb up

Ursumeles
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You two losers won't dare to challenge my arguments. But they will help AncientPower in this debate nonetheless. thumb up
> Tempest and Beni
> Losers
> LMFAO

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Nope, I didn't read the post yet.
But...WHEN? Here:

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Ursumeles
> Tempest and Beni
> Losers
> LMFAO
So a troll is their guarantor? laughing out loud

Ursumeles
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So a troll is their guarantor? laughing out loud
An troll, who has beaten you in debates, yes smile

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Here:
You keep missing the context, don't you?

Your argument is that Dromund Kaas was strong in the Dark Side before arrival of Vitiate and his followers. While your point was not wrong, you misinterpreted a revelation in Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan in support of it. I posted the actual reason:

Vitiate deemed world(s) strong in the Dark Side as suitable environments for training of his Imperial Guard and to ensure his unshakable grip (i.e. influence) over them.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Ursumeles
An troll, who has beaten you in debates, yes smile
And which debate is that?

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Also did anyone else notice the part were Leg debunked his own case? I found that quite amusing.

No, I stopped reading his posts years ago. Doctor's orders.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
No, I stopped reading his posts years ago. Doctor's orders.
The Sheevite trolls are coming out in droves now. laughing out loud

Beniboybling
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
No, I stopped reading his posts years ago. Doctor's orders. Smart move.

cs_zoltan
Damn, he called me a troll. What am I going to do with my life now?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Damn, he called me a troll. What am I going to do with my life now?
End it.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Damn, he called me a troll. What am I going to do with my life now?
1. You burgle in his house/apartment/carton/whatever.
2. You **** ******** him and then **** his ***** while you ***** his dog.

cs_zoltan
Legend's handing out some career ending burns here.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Smart move.
The Beniboybling I came across in the original SWTOR forums, is now a mere shadow of his former-self.

Shame.

Beniboybling
I'm suprised you be so desperate for my attention LeG, me being a homosexual and all.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm suprised you be so desperate for my attention LeG, me being a homosexual and all.
http://31.media.tumblr.com/955df7194692b2a45d98852219217fe3/tumblr_mod6r9DdVv1rl3hfqo1_500.gif

S_W_LeGenD
This is the situation now: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=630711&pagenumber=1

Beniboybling
You should try the logout button, reckon it would improve things.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
You should try the logout button, reckon it would improve things.
You should follow your own advice.

<< THERE IS MORE FROM THIS THREAD HERE >>