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Rules
* In character, but serious
* Fight takes place on the Invisible Hand
* Starting distance: 7m
* SoD Maul

1. Force
2. Sabers
3. All-Out

Team 2 wrecks face.

Team 1 takes sabers.

Team 1.

Team 1, each member of team 1 is superior to each member of team 2 especially in terms of lightsaber combat.

Lmao.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Team 1, each member of team 1 is superior to each member of team 2 especially in terms of lightsaber combat.
Maul > Arcann in the Force? How?

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Maul > Arcann in the Force? How?

What has Arcann done that makes him more powerful?

Team 2 in all, sabers is extremely close

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
What has Arcann done that makes him more powerful?
Ragdolling the Outlander(granted, he was wekened), deflecting the Lightning of an weakenened Valk.
IIRC, there was also something, which places him above Vaylin.

After the Outlander kicked his ass and while he was highly wounded he still managed to swat her out of the air when she attacked Senya.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Ragdolling the Outlander(granted, he was wekened), deflecting the Lightning of an weakenened Valk.
IIRC, there was also something, which places him above Vaylin.

Maul ragdolled Obi-Wan to at least the same extent Arcann did to the Outlander with the only difference is that Obi-Wan is more powerful then the Outlander and he deflected lightning sure but he was completely overwhelmed in a short amount of time. I doubt this would be decided in a contest of the Force and most likely will gravitate towards a more martial oriented duel in which case Maul's just plainly better, both in lightsaber combat and unarmed/H2H combat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
After the Outlander kicked his ass and while he was highly wounded he still managed to swat her out of the air when she attacked Senya.

Vaylin was obviously not expecting an attack from Arcann which didn't even do any damage anyway.

Does it matter if she expected the attack from Arcann? She was attacking Senya who was literally right in front of him, so she would be expecting an attack from that exact position no matter what.

Also ****ing christ the cancer at saying Obi-Wan is more powerful than the Outlander. Like, you realise that the quote unquote weakest Force using Outlander is disintegrating blast doors and beating the shit out of Planet-wiping Gods, right?

Team two handily.

ROTFLMMFAO.

Reasons, people?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Does it matter if she expected the attack from Arcann? She was attacking Senya who was literally right in front of him, so she would be expecting an attack from that exact position no matter what.

She was expecting an attack from Senya, not Arcann so yes she was obviously caught off guard not to mention that it doesn't matter, Arcann's push didn't do any damage to her. That's no prove that he's more powerful then her.



Beating the shit out of Planet-wiping Gods? Ohh please, extremely weakened versions over planet-wiping Gods then.

Team 1 in sabers.
Team 2 in everything else.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
She was expecting an attack from Senya, not Arcann so yes she was obviously caught off guard not to mention that it doesn't matter, Arcann's push didn't do any damage to her. That's no prove that he's more powerful then her.



Beating the shit out of Planet-wiping Gods? Ohh please, extremely weakened versions over planet-wiping Gods then.

What does that matter? It was a Force Push that came from the same direction her opponent was in. Her defenses wouldn't change between defending against Senya or Arcann. And Arcann is obviously stronger than her regardless. And Vaylin, in turn, is easily stronger than Maul is.

Sel Makor wasn't weakened, and certainly wasn't highly weakened. He was in his Dark Heart of power if anything.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What does that matter? It was a Force Push that came from the same direction her opponent was in. Her defenses wouldn't change between defending against Senya or Arcann. And Arcann is obviously stronger than her regardless. And Vaylin, in turn, is easily stronger than Maul is.

Sel Makor wasn't weakened, and certainly wasn't highly weakened. He was in his Dark Heart of power if anything.

Because Vaylin was focusing on Senya so if someone else, even someone who standing next to her, attacks her then she's going to be caught off guard (especially since she never expected her brother to turn against her). But even that doesn't matter since the push was completely ineffective against her anyway, that's not even close to being evidence that Arcann > Vaylin. On a sidenote, what would make Vaylin stronger then Maul?

Oh my mistake, I don't know that storyline so I can't possibly comment on that.

Sel Makor has good hype but no showings, so the feat by itself doest mean much even though it adds nicely to the context of HoT's power.

Weakened Vitiate, however, is capable of bringing down large portions of gigantic buildings after being struck: an event that damaged him so much that he was nearing death as a deity afterwards. It is only logical that he'd be more powerful before he was struck down in the battle. Since Vitiate doesn't do CQC, and was trying to finally execute his 1300 year long plan, I assume he would bring all he has in the Force at that moment to stop HoT, which means that "TK application in non-combat situations doesn't reflect one's limits in combat" argument doesn't fit well with Vitiate, as much as it does with characters like Vader. Arcann pretty much ragdolled the guy who resisted this Vitiate. Proof that he doesn't ragdoll Maul?

Also, as I've said many times, HoT:

1) Is oriented in melee/saber combat (meaning duels are what he is best at)
2) Has accolades/feats that suggest high raw power
3) Has mastered all lightsaber forms

When it comes to dueling, the guy has high level of natural talent, technical skill, and force amp to make him an excellent duelist. And Arcann defeats/stalemates him in sabers. Proof Maul can do better?

Not sure how team 1 is winning this. And lol @ Kenobi > Outlander

Originally posted by Sinious
Sel Makor has good hype but no showings, so the feat by itself doest mean much even though it adds nicely to the context of HoT's power.

Weakened Vitiate, however, is capable of bringing down large portions of gigantic buildings after being struck: an event that damaged him so much that he was nearing death as a deity afterwards. It is only logical that he'd be more powerful before he was struck down in the battle. Since Vitiate doesn't do CQC, and was trying to finally execute his 1300 year long plan, I assume he would bring all he has in the Force at that moment to stop HoT, which means that "TK application in non-combat situations doesn't reflect one's limits in combat" argument doesn't fit well with Vitiate, as much as it does with characters like Vader. Arcann pretty much ragdolled the guy who resisted this Vitiate. Proof that he doesn't ragdoll Maul?

Because Vitiate releashing all his power in the end before he died isn't comparable to utilizing a Force Push in combat, even if he would like to win (like probably any character in a fight). Obi-Wan, even years before AotC, has better feats then collapsing a small part of a temple and that's not even the amount of power Vitiate used on the Hero/Outlander. so I doubt Arcann comes even close to dominating Maul through the Force.



That's all good and fine but how does that come close to outdueling one of the most skilled Jedi ever (Qui-Gon) alongside his padawan (Obi-Wan) that rivaled him in skill or pushing back end-TCW Obi-Wan?



Yeah Kenobi > Outland in all areas.

Team 2 stomps

Either beat Maul in a duel, or ragdoll him with the force. Dooku can't carry him

Team one wins lightsabers.

Team two wins in the Force.

Team two wins all out

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Because Vaylin was focusing on Senya so if someone else, even someone who standing next to her, attacks her then she's going to be caught off guard (especially since she never expected her brother to turn against her). But even that doesn't matter since the push was completely ineffective against her anyway, that's not even close to being evidence that Arcann > Vaylin. On a sidenote, what would make Vaylin stronger then Maul?

Oh my mistake, I don't know that storyline so I can't possibly comment on that.

I don't see how it would change how her defenses are impacted by the attack. Even if Vaylin didn't expect it to come from Arcann, since it came from practically the same direction and position her force shields would be hit by it as if it were an attack from Senya and she'd be anticipating an attack from that area. Vaylin tore apart a massive generator and threw it at the building. The chunk of metal she threw at it was comparable in size to the building, which itself was around 12 stories tall. Vaylin and Senya are both inferior to the Outlander and Arcann since Senya defeated Vaylin, whilst the entire point of the Outlander's rescue is that they're the only one who stands a chance of beating Arcann, Senya included. Therefore Arcann > Senya >/= Vaylin.

Ok, so what do you think of the Wrath disintegrating a blast door albeit with the aid of a Jedi Master that's far inferior to him? Not to mention the feats of the Barsen'thor who even weakened and right at the beginning of her career smashed through a blast door the size of a building and has otherwise thrown chunks of metal the size of a bus a hundred feet casually, tanked an explosion that incinerated a blast door while highly weakened, smashed through an "impenetrable" Rakatan Vault Door deemed impossible for a Jedi to break and defeated an Ancient Sith Lord empowered by hundreds of Jedi Masters, while highly weakened? Or the Hero of Tython who is greatest Jedi of the era, even including who I just mentioned, more skilled even than one stated to embody the virtue itself. Or Darth Nox, an incredibly powerful Sith Lord who augmented her power with that of 5 Force Ghosts and shitstomped Darth Thanaton while backhanding force lightning?

Because Arcann was able to defeat any of those guys.

I'll respond in a couple of hours, I'm eating now.

Same

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Because Vitiate releashing all his power in the end before he died isn't comparable to utilizing a Force Push in combat, even if he would like to win (like probably any character in a fight). Obi-Wan, even years before AotC, has better feats then collapsing a small part of a temple and that's not even the amount of power Vitiate used on the Hero/Outlander. so I doubt Arcann comes even close to dominating Maul through the Force. Which is why I said it doesn't apply to him as much as it does to Vader and didn't completely disregard that factor. The crucial thing is that Vitiate tried to stop HoT by using solely the Force and this is how it ended: Vitiate's offense was depleted before HoT's defenses were overwhelmed. More importantly, Vitiate was struck down, and that event weakened him a lot more than he already was. It's arguably the biggest setback he ever suffers from. Non-combat TK > combat TK, sure. Weakened Vitiate >(probably >&gt Struck down weakened Vitiate. And what makes you think it's a "small part" of the temple? Being one of the most skilled Jedi doesn't mean anything concrete, where I've given you a specific analysis of how HoT is OP as a combatant. And are you seriously bringing up the fight where Maul gets cut in half by a padawan like a retard?

Edit: TCW is by far the most unreliable source for duels, and Obi-wan had moments where he was besting Maul+Savage. So far you've done nothing to prove that absurd statement.

Originally posted by Sinious
Which is why I said it doesn't apply to him as much as it does to Vader and didn't completely disregard that factor. The crucial thing is that Vitiate tried to stop HoT by using solely the Force and this is how it ended: Vitiate's offense was depleted before HoT's defenses were overwhelmed. More importantly, Vitiate was struck down, and that event weakened him a lot more than he already was. It's arguably the biggest setback he ever suffers from. Non-combat TK > combat TK, sure. Weakened Vitiate >(probably >&gt Struck down weakened Vitiate. And what makes you think it's a "small part" of the temple?

I could agree on that Vitiate (uninjured) is very likely more powerful tehn Vitiate (injured), sure. The difference however between landing a Force Push in general and him collapsing part of the Temple is that in the first situation he isn't going to use all his energy because he has a duel to fight while in the second instance he's dying and unleashing ALL of his power since he doesn't have to spare any of it anymore. That's where the difference lies according to me.



It does considering the Jedi Order spans over 25000 years, as it marks him as one of the most skilled amongst millions of trained Jedi contrary to the Outlander/Hero being the best of his time (which would make him the best amongst thousands) but not only that, also the fact that Maul was "easily" holding an advantage over the combined might of one of the most skilled Jedi and Padawan that rivaled him in skill. I'm not even going to start about Maul being struck down by TPM Obi-Wan, that has been explained in depth before.



Again, there was stated a very specific reason why Obi-Wan was performing as well as he did on Florrum (the brothers hindering each others movements, limited space, Obi-Wan's sudden offensive approach caught them off guard) so no it's not that unreliable when it comes to straight up dueling.



I've provided you feats of Maul which would mark him superior while you've only said he was a master duelist because he mastered all 7 forms amongst others things, I think the difference is clear.

@Nepthys I'll have to look more into those characters before I can give an answer.

Rip DarthDuelist9

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
I could agree on that Vitiate (uninjured) is very likely more powerful tehn Vitiate (injured), sure. The difference however between landing a Force Push in general and him collapsing part of the Temple is that in the first situation he isn't going to use all his energy because he has a duel to fight while in the second instance he's dying and unleashing ALL of his power since he doesn't have to spare any of it anymore. That's where the difference lies according to me. Yes, we've already been through all that. My point is, even if combat TK is more limited by nature, the fact that Vitiate was extremely weakened counters that factor, and it's probably a more major detail, since Vitty was so weakened by HoT' slaying him, he was at the brink of death as a spirit afterwards. So, it's like Dooku's non-combat TK is good, but is it better than Sidious' combat TK? Also, as I've said, there is no CQC here, all Vitiate has to do is us his force powers to stop HoT. Even in a case of that sort, I agree that it's a more limiting situation than non-combat TK, but the importance of this fact still become even less relevant. The problem is, Qui-Gon might be one of the most skilled Jedi ever because he is in top 10, top 100, 1000? It's extremely vague, where HoT's quotes place him at the top of his era. Even as of Act I, which is WAY before his prime, HoT has better accolades than that, lol.
This is not the only time Maul performs embarrassingly against weak foes. The pattern suggests incompetence. Dude, every time someone fights in TCW, we see something inconsistent, lol. I've literally seen Ventress force choke Kenobi and Anakin at the same time. I've given you an analysis of HoT. You just brought up the TPM fight and said Maul ragdolls Kenobi so he is above Arcann or Outlander lol. Very compelling.