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Now that Dooku can't run from the fight by ragdolling Kenobi, who wins?

We've done this at least 3 times before your attempt.

Dooku with difficulty

Dooku will win against any version of Kenobi every day of the week. Can we stop now?

Originally posted by Kurk
Dooku will win against any version of Kenobi every day of the week. Can we stop now? Nah.

Kenobi can take at least 3/10 wins.

DC has already debated this with SunRazer.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Kenobi can take at least 3/10 wins.

DC has already debated this with SunRazer. link

Later.

Dooku

Either way.

Tyranus.

Kenobi, the Stover novel has already told us that Dooku can't penetrate his Soresu.

Good point. While I don't see Dooku getting through Kenobi's defenses, I question if Kenobi could find a hole in Dooku's likewise near unparalleled swordsmanship over Makashi. Given his impressive offensive showing against the Maul bros, it's possible.

The biggest difference is that, whilst Dooku can regenerate his stamina to a degree, Kenobi can go all day. Dooku will tire, then Kenobi springs.

But Stover also told us, that Dooku has infinite Stamina- likely Hyperbole, but Kenobi hasn't it either.

@Ant Even if Dooku couldn't penetrate his Soresu, he should be able to penetrate Kenobi's Ataru.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
But Stover also told us, that Dooku has infinite Stamina- likely Hyperbole, but Kenobi hasn't it either.

Not really, he just replenished once. But he was getting tired of a duo using Shii-Cho and Shien

Originally posted by Ursumeles
@Ant Even if Dooku couldn't penetrate his Soresu, he should be able to penetrate Kenobi's Ataru.

So you think if Kenobi switches to Ataru he forgets how to Soresu?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Not really, he just replenished once. But he was getting tired of a duo using Shii-Cho and Shien
Yeah, but one of them was the most powerful Jedi of all time

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Yeah, but one of them was the most powerful Jedi of all time

Who was holding back significantly and used a form for blaster deflection.

Kenibi was in a higher state of senses when fighting against Maul & Savage on Florrum whilr at the same time profiting from the not-yet-so-good synergy of the zabraks and the limited space of the environment, fact file already confirmed Kenobi stood absolutely no chance against the two brothers combined.

Stover's novel represents an extreme depiction of the fight where Dooku is depicted as being much more desperate than he is in other sources. I don't need to remind you that another depiction of the fight has Dooku instantly one-shotting Obi-Wan without even looking at him, do I?

The film also depicts Dooku controlling Obi-Wan's blade, which I don't think anybody who is a mere equal to Obi-Wan can accomplish.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Kenibi was in a higher state of senses when fighting against Maul & Savage on Florrum whilr at the same time profiting from the not-yet-so-good synergy of the zabraks and the limited space of the environment, fact file already confirmed Kenobi stood absolutely no chance against the two brothers combined.


Yeah plus the tight environment benefits Soresu.

Dooku. Great fight.

I would say Obi Wan.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah plus the tight environment benefits Soresu.

He was using Ataru, IIRC.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He was using Ataru, IIRC.


Originally posted by cs_zoltan


So you think if Kenobi switches to Ataru he forgets how to Soresu?

Yeah he probably did use Ataru but that again confirms Obi-Wan actually can put forwars a good offense.

Originally posted by Darth Thor


You can only use one form at a time. At best, he may have used Soresu intermittently.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You can only use one form at a time. At best, he may have used Soresu intermittently.


Not according to Canon.

The GI tells Kanan on their first encounter that he uses Form 3 to a ridiculous extent.. Or something along those lines.

And notice how well Kenobi's defenses held through that entire duel. His defenses were just as impressive as his offense.

Dooku one-shots:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4131782-dookukick.png

^ Do you know what one-shot means?

Would that move be allowed in this sabers only fight?

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Would that move be allowed in this sabers only fight?

Technically it's a physical attack. But usually we Group it in as part of Sabers, which is why most here consider Maul and Dooku close in Sabers, due to Maul's martial prowess.

Originally posted by Azronger
Dooku one-shots:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4131782-dookukick.png

An high-grounding.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Kenibi was in a higher state of senses when fighting against Maul & Savage on Florrum whilr at the same time profiting from the not-yet-so-good synergy of the zabraks and the limited space of the environment, fact file already confirmed Kenobi stood absolutely no chance against the two brothers combined.

Only the fact file isn't anywhere near the canon validity as the actual show. We unquestionably SEE that he has a chance against the brothers. No fact file changes that.

Originally posted by Kurk
Dooku will win against any version of Kenobi every day of the week. Can we stop now?

There is zero notion that fighting two foes in an enclosed area is at all advantageous. It's ludicrous to even propose such a theory. Fight mimic fights, no matter the medium. Would you rather take on two guys in a dead end alley with no where to go.. or take them on in the middle of an open street with room to maneuver? The answer is quite clear. We see this all the time. No, it was not better for Kenobi in closed space, it was better for the Brothers.

Originally posted by Rebel95
Dooku with difficulty

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Do you know what one-shot means?

Defeating someone with one blow.

But it was a joke, anyway.

It's stated that Vader couldn't penetrate Kenobi's defenses in ANH.

That's honestly unexplainable but oh well.

It's no question that a very defensive form like Makashi or Soresu is going to be advantageous in an enclosed space against the likes of Juyo or Vaapad with its large sweeping arcs and power attacks.

Totally incorrect and logically so. Think about it.. In any medium.. sword fight, punches, whatever... It's never good to be in enclosed spaces with two people attacking. It's ALWAYS better to be able to move around freely and create space. You act like WITH space Soresu isn't effective. That is blatantly false. It's just as effective. What you're granted is more maneuvering and space. It doesn't make it harder for you to be defensive, it's easier.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Totally incorrect and logically so. Think about it.. In any medium.. sword fight, punches, whatever... It's never good to be in enclosed spaces with two people attacking. It's ALWAYS better to be able to move around freely and create space. You act like WITH space Soresu isn't effective. That is blatantly false. It's just as effective. What you're granted is more maneuvering and space. It doesn't make it harder for you to be defensive, it's easier.
I didn't say soresu isn't effective in open spaces. I said in enclosed areas a wild form like juyo is going to be at a disadvantage.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's stated that Vader couldn't penetrate Kenobi's defenses in ANH.

That's true, but it's from the same source that has ANH Vader as a mere shadow of his former self.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Not according to Canon.

The GI tells Kanan on their first encounter that he uses Form 3 to a ridiculous extent.. Or something along those lines.

And notice how well Kenobi's defenses held through that entire duel. His defenses were just as impressive as his offense.

What the GI said doesn't have anything to do with my point.

Obi-Wan was on the offensive for most of the fight.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That's true, but it's from the same source that has ANH Vader as a mere shadow of his former self.

Which is also true.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Which is also true.

Obviously.

I assume the implication of your post was that Dooku wouldn't be able to penetrate Obi-Wan's defenses because Vader couldn't, which I disagree with. They have different fighting styles and Dooku's form is much better suited to picking apart Kenobi's defensive form than Vader's hammering blows.

Not that ANH Vader is on Dooku's level as a swordsman anyway.

My point was honestly just to jab Vader, tbh.

I don't see why ANH Vader wouldn't be near Dooku's level as a swordsman tbh. He's regained enough augmentative ability even as of 18 BBY to be faster than slightly post-ROTS Kenobi, on top of having a greater baseline physical strength. He's clearly regained quite a bit of his former command of the Force if he can pull off the monstrous TK feats that he does and has that physical augmentation, and not only does he have his past experience and skill to draw on (even if some of it isn't transferable) but he has had even more time than he had as Anakin to develop his technical skill with a blade. I can understand the people who think ANH Vader is lesser, but given the three things that make a person a good duelist and how he as Vader compares to Anakin, there should at least be some parity (not talking about Anakin when he kills the dragon or whatever).

You're citing augmentation, not skill. Vader's definitely a physical powerhouse at this point, but his overall fighting ability is quite diminished.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
There is zero notion that fighting two foes in an enclosed area is at all advantageous. It's ludicrous to even propose such a theory. Fight mimic fights, no matter the medium. Would you rather take on two guys in a dead end alley with no where to go.. or take them on in the middle of an open street with room to maneuver? The answer is quite clear. We see this all the time. No, it was not better for Kenobi in closed space, it was better for the Brothers.


It's confirmed in the new Canon that Soresu is designed for tight quarters.

Originally posted by SunRazer


Obi-Wan was on the offensive for most of the fight.


That doesn't mean he gives up his Soresu defences. The reason Obi-Wan performed so well in that fight wasn't because he initiated an unstoppable offensive. It was because during that whole offensive his defences were impenetrable (Aside from TK Attacks).

Originally posted by Darth Thor
That doesn't mean he gives up his Soresu defences. The reason Obi-Wan performed so well in that fight wasn't because he initiated an unstoppable offensive. It was because during that whole offensive his defences were impenetrable (Aside from TK Attacks).

I didn't say he gave up his Soresu defense. But citing that Soresu's efficiency in such a location was a major advantage is wrong because the novel makes it clear, IIRC, that the brothers were taken back by Obi-Wan's use of Ataru.

Obi-Wan isn't even a defensive fighter in TCW though.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Obi-Wan isn't even a defensive fighter in TCW though.
Wait... what?

He's been touting Obi-Wan's "aggressive fighting style" in TCW for a while now.

I never said aggresive Nova, apparently in your mind a fighter can only be aggresive or defensive.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Wait... what?

Based on all his fights in TCW he opts to just go toe-to-toe with his opponents rather then willfully going on a defense.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
I never said aggresive Nova, apparently in your mind a fighter can only be aggresive or defensive.
So... Obi-Wan has a passive aggressive fighting style? Sounds pretty bitchy to me tbh and nothing like Obi-Wan

http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w680/AlphaPrime5/CWBuild1Gauntlets_zpsf8210f84.jpg

Just look at that beard! Obi-Wan aint no *****

How does going toe-to-toe with someone preclude you from being defensive?

Because if he would fully employ Soresu then he would let the opponents come to him rather then meeting them head-on.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
So... Obi-Wan has a passive aggressive fighting style? Sounds pretty bitchy to me tbh and nothing like Obi-Wan

http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w680/AlphaPrime5/CWBuild1Gauntlets_zpsf8210f84.jpg

Just look at that beard! Obi-Wan aint no *****

I would rather describe it as neutral which seems more like Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Because if he would fully employ Soresu then he would let the opponents come to him rather then meeting them head-on.

It's not as if he never uses Ataru. He also does that sort of thing in the films as well. Although in fairness, Nick Gillard does claim that Obi-Wan is aggressive.

The he would be using Ataru more then Soresu? Anyway he could very well be utilizing Soresu but I'm just countering the "Obi-Wan gets pushed back so he's just employing Soresu" excuse.

Going toe-to-toe with people doesn't mean he's using Ataru.

It's never definitive, but it's clear that Obi-Wan's style revolves around falling back as well. That would be the basis of their claim.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Going toe-to-toe with people doesn't mean he's using Ataru.

It's never definitive, but it's clear that Obi-Wan's style revolves around falling back as well. That would be the basis of their claim.

To be honest it doesn't really matter to me which form he's employing just that falling back willfully isn't part of it.

Is it? Even in RotS when fighting Grievous he only falls back to lure Grievous on the catwalk butfor the rest? I'm not sure how falling back has ever been Kenobi's main way to go.

That's outright stated in the RotS novel, lol. As far as Legends goes, that's one of the principle elements of Obi-Wan's fighting style. Animations and technicalities don't take precedence over that.

Animation does in canon since that's Obi-Wan main source of portrayal. In legends, IIRC it was only by the time of LoE that Kenobi fully employed Soresu (Anakin made a remark or something about it).

Originally posted by SunRazer
I didn't say he gave up his Soresu defense. But citing that Soresu's efficiency in such a location was a major advantage is wrong because the novel makes it clear, IIRC, that the brothers were taken back by Obi-Wan's use of Ataru.


No it says they were taken back by him going on the offensive.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
To be honest it doesn't really matter to me which form he's employing just that falling back willfully isn't part of it.




He falls back against Ventress in TCW movie even though he was stomping her.

Even his 1 v 1 against Maul on Florrum, notice he keeps falling back on his own accord and not because Maul is forcing him back.

In every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground. It was his way.
--Revenge of the Sith

But this shitty quote doesn't mean anything since we all know DD9's retarded TCW analysis > Canon.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
He falls back against Ventress in TCW movie even though he was stomping her.

Even his 1 v 1 against Maul on Florrum, notice he keeps falling back on his own accord and not because Maul is forcing him back.

Yeah but he was keeping her busy in order for Anakin to escape.

How do you know Maul isn't forcing him back? He fights Maul, gets slowly oushed back and then retreats, it's pretty obvious.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
In every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground. It was his way.
--Revenge of the Sith

But this shitty quote doesn't mean anything since we all know DD9's retarded TCW analysis > Canon.

The novels aren't entirely canon though, only the parts that follow the movies. Besides that's in RotS so that doesn't say anything about TCW Obi-Wan, try again.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Besides that's in RotS so that doesn't say anything about TCW Obi-Wan, try again.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Is it? Even in RotS when fighting Grievous he only falls back to lure Grievous on the catwalk butfor the rest? I'm not sure how falling back has ever been Kenobi's main way to go.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan


So? I'm just noting what happened in the movies, doesn't change sh*t about what I said about TCW or how the novelization in general is greatly different from the movie.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
DD9's retarded TCW analysis > Canon.

You don't even understand the difference between canon and legends so I don't expect you to actually be able to put forward a believable argument.

DD9's go-to moves: When you get humiliated switch the goal post to Disney Canon or Legends accordingly.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Yeah but he was keeping her busy in order for Anakin to escape.

How do you know Maul isn't forcing him back? He fights Maul, gets slowly oushed back and then retreats, it's pretty obvious.


Keeping my her busy? I don't understand, I mean he was still trying to beat her right?

Because against Maul he only walks back between exchanges IIRC.

Also Soresu is confirmed as a defensive form in Canon, so I doubt they've changed the idea that Kenobi is The Soresu Master, given it melds perfectly with his character traits "the negotiator".

Sure but the mission goes first which was for Anakin to get off planet with the Hutt child so he's definitely going to put that first.

Sure but that could easily be because he's forced to do that since he doesn't to do that in hus other fights.

Defensive, of course but not necessarely givin ground all the time since he doesn't do that in the rest of hus fights.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9


Defensive, of course but not necessarely givin ground all the time since he doesn't do that in the rest of hus fights.


This I can agree with. He doesn't have to give ground just because he fights defensively.

bump

Kenobi.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Good point. While I don't see Dooku getting through Kenobi's defenses, I question if Kenobi could find a hole in Dooku's likewise near unparalleled swordsmanship over Makashi. Given his impressive offensive showing against the Maul bros, it's possible.

He was duel wielding though.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The biggest difference is that, whilst Dooku can regenerate his stamina to a degree, Kenobi can go all day. Dooku will tire, then Kenobi springs.

This is true. Dooku's endurance is often undersold but it's still nothing compared to Kenobi's.

It can go either way

kenobi pierces the count's beard. Dooku dies of shame.

Depends who the aggressor is. Neither opponent is particularly aggressive in combat so IMHO this sabers only battle is inconclusive. It can't happen.

Dooku's not going to attack Kenobi endlessly till fatigue and Kenobi isn't going to attack at all unless he wants to get exploited.

Legends Obi Wan wins

Canon Dooku wins

as of ROTS

Originally posted by Kurk


and Kenobi isn't going to attack at all unless he wants to get exploited.


Well he did in ROTS.

But yeah its less likely when Kenobi is fighting solo.

Strange how much opinions have changed, whereas a few years ago people were saying "Kenobi will never ever beat the count, 0/10".

Originally posted by Kurk
Depends who the aggressor is. Neither opponent is particularly aggressive in combat so IMHO this sabers only battle is inconclusive. It can't happen.

Dooku's not going to attack Kenobi endlessly till fatigue and Kenobi isn't going to attack at all unless he wants to get exploited. His Ataru was enough to keep the brothers busy for awhile, and considering Kenobi can seamlessly switch between them, I think it spells trouble for the count.

Dooku is THE master of Makashi, but Kenobi is THE master of Soresu, while being pretty damn good with Ataru. Kenobi's never had a truly fair shot in his prime against the Count in a one-on-one exchange, and considering that Kenobi and Anakin were toying with him in the beginning of their fight with him in the ROTS Novel, it speaks volumes of how good Kenobi truly is.