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http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/92932/2162491-d01.jpg

No prep.
No BFR.
Midtown Manhattan rooftop to start.

http://i.imgur.com/jCvSbL8.jpg

Dove destroys him. She can predict moves, and she's physically superior. Oh, and she can fly faster than Speed Queen.

Originally posted by Zack M
Dove destroys him. She can predict moves, and she's physically superior. Oh, and she can fly faster than Speed Queen.
This is the common sense answer. But you aren't taking into account DD's jobber aura (see it in full effect vs Tombstone).

Originally posted by zopzop
This is the common sense answer. But you aren't taking into account DD's jobber aura (see it in full effect vs Tombstone).

Tombstone isn't as fast, nor he doesn't have the body movement prediction ability. Nor can he fly, etc... Now if you find me someone that DD beat with Dove's same abilities, then I'll concede.

Originally posted by Zack M
Tombstone isn't as fast, nor he doesn't have the body movement prediction ability. Nor can he fly, etc... Now if you find me someone that DD beat with Dove's same abilities, then I'll concede.

Daredevil beat someone more powerful, Ultron.

Originally posted by carver9
Daredevil beat someone more powerful, Ultron.

Ultron can't fight. Try again.

Daredevil

Originally posted by Zack M
Ultron can't fight. Try again.

Lol...he's far more powerful. If Daredevil could beat Black Adam, would you still say the same. Like I said, he beat someone far more powerful, Ultron. Who has Dove defeated in h2h that's skilled.? Well, as skilled as DD.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...he's far more powerful. If Daredevil could beat Black Adam, would you still say the same. Like I said, he beat someone far more powerful, Ultron. Who has Dove defeated in h2h that's skilled.?

Ultron isn't a good fighter. So, DD>>>Black Adam? You're a troll.

Originally posted by Zack M
Ultron isn't a good fighter. So, DD>>>Black Adam? You're a troll.

He doesn't have to be a good fighter, he's far more powerful than Dove. Midnighter beat a Superman level character per your admission and took out a Flash level character. Why post these showings in a martial arts battle when the 2 I named didn't have any skill in h2h? You posted these scans in almost every Midnighter thread against Martial artist.

Who said anything about Daredevil being above Adam. Read my post again.

Originally posted by carver9
Daredevil beat someone more powerful, Ultron.

So if you posted scans of this fight, could it be shown in no way to bring up the debate of CIS/PIS/WIS scenarios?


Because somehow ......I doubt it...

Originally posted by carver9
He doesn't have to be a good fighter, he's far more powerful than Dove. Midnighter beat a Superman level character per your admission and took out a Flash level character. Why post these showings in a martial arts battle when the 2 I named didn't have any skill in h2h? You posted these scans in almost every Midnighter thread against Martial artist.

Who said anything about Daredevil being above Adam. Read my post again.

It's not about power in this fight. Dove is a good enough fighter to win.

Look at the scans you posted in this thread...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=634764&pagenumber=2

Midnighter vs Martian Manhunter
Midnighter taking out a Flash level character

Your consistency is all over the place. Martian Manhunter and the Flash level character isn't skilled, at all.

Originally posted by Zack M
It's not about power in this fight. Dove is a good enough fighter to win.

It wasn't about power in the Midnighter vs Mr.X thread either but you posted it.

So, if DD can take Ultron, he can take Superman, Black Adam, Gladiator, etc... Afterall, he IS more powerful, Carv.

Originally posted by carver9
Look at the scans you posted in this thread...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=634764&pagenumber=2

Midnighter vs Martian Manhunter
Midnighter taking out a Flash level character

Your consistency is all over the place. Martian Manhunter and the Flash level character isn't skilled, at all.

What are you babbling about now? Midnighter didn't even beat MM. DD DID beat Ultron, so DD>>>Anyone under Ultron

Originally posted by Zack M
So, if DD can take Ultron, he can take Superman, Black Adam, Gladiator, etc... Afterall, he IS more powerful, Carv.

Hey, I'm pulling a Zack here. You brought up DD beating someone with the same abilities. I upped it and said he defeated someone more powerful.

Originally posted by Zack M
What are you babbling about now? Midnighter didn't even beat MM. DD DID beat Ultron, so DD>>>Anyone under Ultron

You posted it though. Why did you post the showing in a martial arts battle? Hello.

Erm, DD never beat Ultron. Lol.

Originally posted by carver9
You posted it though. Why did you post the showing in a martial arts battle? Hello.

Yeah, I was posting that to show Midnighter's computer brain to being more versatile and powerful than Mr. X's low level TP.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Erm, DD never beat Ultron. Lol.

A low level copy...the non adamantium version.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3841/751/1600/DD276-Stick01.jpg

Originally posted by Zack M
Yeah, I was posting that to show Midnighter's computer brain to being more versatile and powerful than Mr. X's low level TP.

You really didn't.

Originally posted by carver9
You really didn't.

I did, but you can't read. LOL @ Ultron.

Originally posted by carver9
A low level copy...the non adamantium version.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3841/751/1600/DD276-Stick01.jpg

LAME. Let's see how DD does against a real Ultron.

Originally posted by carver9
A low level copy...the non adamantium version.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3841/751/1600/DD276-Stick01.jpg

Yeah, it was the stick that defeated him. Not DD.

Oh, the wooden stick was PIS, you say?

Originally posted by carver9
A low level copy...the non adamantium version.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3841/751/1600/DD276-Stick01.jpg

So is that the Tin Ultron?

I wondered how this got to 2 pages so quickly...

Carver is wrong. So wrong.

That version of Ultron WAS adamantium.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3841/751/1600/DD276-Stick02.jpg

The wires inside weren't, but the shell was.

Originally posted by riv6672
I wondered how this got to 2 pages so quickly...
See what you started?!

Originally posted by zopzop
See what you started?!
I'm innocent.

Originally posted by Zack M
LAME. Let's see how DD does against a real Ultron.

It WAS adamantium, actually.

Don't listen to carver, ffs.

Daredevil

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
It WAS adamantium, actually.

Don't listen to carver, ffs.

I never do. I still think Dove wins, though. She has too many options, including a light attack that will screw with DD senses. Plus, all she has to do is be in the air. She was able to lift an airplane, FFS. DD doesn't have a prayer, TBH.

A light attack that will screw with the blind man's senses?

It's mystic in nature. It was powerful enough to destroy BLACK LANTERNS. I think it would screw DD big time.

How?

Cause it effects a wide area. Like when she destroyed an army of Black Lanterns. Even if it doesn't affect his senses, it will catch him eventually.

What will it do to him?

Originally posted by krisblaze
What will it do to him?

What do you think?

I don't know, he's not a black lantern.

some versions of dove are pretty damn powerful. lol at the ultron stuff though. that fight gets so overrated it's hilarious. a better showing was against creel. he' beaten hyde too. dd has some great wins. in general though dove SHOULD beat him most of the time. pretty sure her incarnations vary in power levels though. she's more dangerous than hawk is however--at least in what i've read of her which admittedly, isn't all that much (but prolly more than most....) some scans of her feats would be good. i can try and scrounge a few up if i can find the books.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Carver is wrong. So wrong.

That version of Ultron WAS adamantium.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3841/751/1600/DD276-Stick02.jpg

The wires inside weren't, but the shell was.

Lol at how this structural weakness really should make the adamantium and Ultron together completely useless against the likes of the Avengers.

Originally posted by krisblaze
I don't know, he's not a black lantern.

Her energy projection has affected more than just Black Lanterns.

Daredevil takes this.

Takes a beating.

Nah. Dove is pretty comprehensively outclassed.

LOL!

You lol, yet you've literally provided nothing to support Dove. What showing does she have to actually support a win here? Like, in terms of actual feats, what does this incarnation have? Because until you can actually produce anything, Daredevil takes the win, and easily at that.

Stronger, faster, able to fly, movement reading, energy projectiles, etc... Unless you can show me DD taking someone in Dove's class, you don't have anything.

Prove she's stronger and faster. After that, prove it's to an extent DD has never faced before. Hell, just the other month he took down a monster with the combined strength of 100 hand warriors. Seriously, who has this Dove ever beaten or fought that is on the level of DD? Give us actual feats and wins.

While this was hella fun to read, yeah, DD has fought some tough characters.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Prove she's stronger and faster. After that, prove it's to an extent DD has never faced before. Hell, just the other month he took down a monster with the combined strength of 100 hand warriors. Seriously, who has this Dove ever beaten or fought that is on the level of DD? Give us actual feats and wins.

Her biggest strength feat is successfully moving a plane, her best speed feat is out racing one of the fastest New Gods, Speed Queen in the series Hawk And Dove. Now prove that DD is stronger than that.

Originally posted by Zack M
Her biggest strength feat is successfully moving a plane, her best speed feat is out racing one of the fastest New Gods, Speed Queen in the series Hawk And Dove. Now prove that DD is stronger than that.

Define "Moving a plane." What sort of plane, and how did she move it exactly? Push, pull or lift?

Next, how fast is Speed queen, exactly? And did she outrace her, or simply avoid her?

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Define "Moving a plane." What sort of plane, and how did she move it exactly? Push, pull or lift?

Next, how fast is Speed queen, exactly? And did she outrace her, or simply avoid her?

It was in DCnU relaunch, Hawl and Dove. The plane was about to crash, and Dove successfully landed it. DD hasn't done anything like that.

Speed Queen was trying to catch Dove, but she failed. I'd peg her around sonic speeds or above.

Originally posted by Zack M
It was in DCnU relaunch, Hawl and Dove. The plane was about to crash, and Dove successfully landed it. DD hasn't done anything like that.

Speed Queen was trying to catch Dove, but she failed. I'd peg her around sonic speeds or above.

Well, he can't fly, so that's not surprising. Either way, guiding a plane down doesn't put her strength above the class of people DD has taken down.

So, she ran away really fast? Ok. Now, has she ever translated that into an actual fight? Remember, DD has slapped away a bullet with enough accuracy to send it straight back into his attacker's neck, and kept up with Spider-man and Captain America, both of whom can contend with speedsters. If all she's done with that speed is run away, it's not going to do her much good.

I'm sure DD has taken down some strong opponents, but so has Dove. Dove has the combination of speed. Strength, and flight to pull off a solid majority. The only edge DD has is fighting skill, but Dove counters that by knowing his every move, so it's not that big of a deal. Her energy, radiant power also will blow him away. There is no way he can dodge that.

Yes, these tough opponents Dove has beaten. Who are they, exactly?

As for the radiant power, who has it affected that isn't a Black Lantern? How has it affected them? What about these move predictions? What significant opponents/attacks has it allowed her to avoid? How far-reaching are its effects? Are you saying she's untouchable?

She basically destroyed an army of black lanterns in Blackest Night. She affected a wide area, so it's almost impossible to dodge. She first demonstrated those attacks in the second Hawk and Dove series. Pretty much an automatic win.

So she's never affected anyone with it other than a Black Lantern? Brings who were specifically indentified as being weak to it?

Cool. It means it's useless here. Now, what about my other questions? Who has she beaten of note, and what showings does this movement prediction have? Because at the moment, it seems like Dove's only option is to BFR herself by running away.

I forgot to mention her durability and healing factor. She was smacked around by Mammoth (Tombstone plus) and survived an attack from Ground Zero. Her healing isn't as good as Wolverine's or anything, but it will keep her in the game for a while.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
So she's never affected anyone with it other than a Black Lantern? Brings who were specifically indentified as being weak to it?

Cool. It means it's useless here. Now, what about my other questions? Who has she beaten of note, and what showings does this movement prediction have? Because at the moment, it seems like Dove's only option is to BFR herself by running away.

Did I say that? Nope.

You haven't said much at all, which is the problem. You did claim she has beaten tough opponents, yet when asked, failed to provide them. You have mentioned that she can predict his movements, yet have failed to provide any showings of this skill, or how effective it can be. In fact, you just mentioned that she's been tagged by Mammoth, whose speed is < Daredevil, so clearly he can tag her.

Essentially, it's obvious that this Dove has never beaten anyone of note, is no stronger than many of Daredevil's usual opponents, and is so incompetent with her speed and move reading that she gets tagged by Mammoth, a guy that Tim Drake has treated like a chump.

Until the Dove side produces anything of note, I'm considering this yet another flawless victory for the man without fear.

Peace out, bitches.

I thought you knew a lot about Dove? LOL. Anyway, Dove wins.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
she gets tagged by Mammoth, a guy that Tim Drake has treated like a chump.

Just wanted to comment on this. You KNOW that's PIS to the extreme. I promise you in a forum fight between Mammoth and Tim Drake, Drake would end up as nothing more than a bloody smear on the ground.

Originally posted by zopzop
Just wanted to comment on this. You KNOW that's PIS to the extreme. I promise you in a forum fight between Mammoth and Tim Drake, Drake would end up as nothing more than a bloody smear on the ground.

Why? Power does not equal auto-win. Daredevil has physically beaten Mr. Hyde, yet Hyde is multiple times more powerful.

Originally posted by Stoic
Why? Power does not equal auto-win. Daredevil has physically beaten Mr. Hyde, yet Hyde is multiple times more powerful.
That's what we call writer armor/PIS/CIS Stoic.

How in the hell is a peak athlete (Drake) going to beat a CL75 (minimum) powerhouse (Mammoth)? Even if he's 'bulkier' Mammoth can still lift/press HUNDREDS of times his own weight. He'd be able to run much faster than any human being. He'd be able to jump HUNDREDS of feet. He'd be lifting trucks/cars/etc.. and toss them around like toys. He'd have the stamina and durability to withstand rigorous displays of strength like that.

In a forum fight, street levelers don't get writer armor/PIS/CIS to save them and they die. That's why I specifically said "in a forum fight" in the post you replied to.

Originally posted by zopzop
That's what we call writer armor/PIS/CIS Stoic.

How in the hell is a peak athlete (Drake) going to beat a CL75 (minimum) powerhouse (Mammoth)? Even if he's 'bulkier' Mammoth can still lift/press HUNDREDS of times his own weight. He'd be able to run much faster than any human being. He'd be able to jump HUNDREDS of feet. He'd be lifting trucks/cars/etc.. and toss them around like toys. He'd have the stamina and durability to withstand rigorous displays of strength like that.

In a forum fight, street levelers don't get writer armor/PIS/CIS to save them and they die. That's why I specifically said "in a forum fight" in the post you replied to.

Depends. Pre Flash Mammoth had trouble lifting 5 tons, but that was way back in the Byrne or just after the Byrne era Superman. Pressure point attacks are a viable win for the less powerful and more skilled characters. Everything about comics is PIS/CIS. The idea that guys like Batman, Daredevil, Robin, and yes even Captain America landing on their feet without breaking 60% of their bones from jumping off of buildings and landing on their feet, is a mix of PIS and CIS within itself. I have no doubt, that Daredevil would beat Hyde on a regular basis if he had to. That means that it really isn't PIS.

Originally posted by Stoic
Depends. Pre Flash Mammoth had trouble lifting 5 tons,
Think about this. Let's say he can 'only' lift 5 tons. That still doesn't help. He'd still be able to lift/press dozens of times his own weight. All his stats : speed, strength, durability, stamina would still easily be Super Human.

If he just grabbed an arm or a leg and squeezed, he'd grind that appendage to dust and DD or Time Drake would go into shock or fall unconscious from the rapid loss of blood. Fight over.

Originally posted by zopzop
Think about this. Let's say he can 'only' lift 5 tons. That still doesn't help. He'd still be able to lift/press dozens of times his own weight. All his stats : speed, strength, durability, stamina would still easily be Super Human.

If he just grabbed an arm or a leg and squeezed, he'd grind that appendage to dust and DD or Time Drake would go into shock or fall unconscious from the rapid loss of blood. Fight over.

If, but the problem here is that Robin and Daredevil far outclasses either of those brutes in skill, not to mention that Matt has the ability of knowing when one of them were going to strike. Comic book peak human's are actually super human by normal standards. I don't think that by forum rules that it should be considered PIS. CIS may play a large part of the loss, but I could see Robin beating Mammoth time and time again. That's all that I'm saying.

Daredevil wins

Originally posted by Stoic
If, but the problem here is that Robin and Daredevil far outclasses either of those brutes in skill, not to mention that Matt has the ability of knowing when one of them were going to strike. Comic book peak human's are actually super human by normal standards. I don't think that by forum rules that it should be considered PIS. CIS may play a large part of the loss, but I could see Robin beating Mammoth time and time again. That's all that I'm saying.
You're right.

Martian commented on DD deflecting a bullet. That's cute. Here is Dove deflecting a bullet point blank and ricocheting the bullet to hit the guy who fired the gun.

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/DE_zpsfheggvh1.jpg

And her ability to see the other opponents moves. A Black Lantern.

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/DE2_zpsx3admvxq.jpg

Seriously though, how does Dove not stomp this ?

lol