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They should be roughtly as skilled, but Malak is easily more powerful. Malak wins.

Easily more powerful? On what account?

I'm just curious to see what arguments can be made in favor of Malak.

Putting Revan is stasis.

Ventress is more powerful than beings that have telekinetically incapacitated an Anakin months after his dreadnought feat. Is Malak superior by such a distinctive margin that he can win on merit of power alone?

I'm challenging your earlier assertion that they're around even in skill, actually. Contending with Anakin supersedes contending with Darth Revan.

mmm
Tru.









Jacen Solo's.

Malak dominates.

Ventress.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Ventress.
@Ant

There's no alert you get when somebody puts an @ before your name. :P

DD has Ventress like Dooku level, lol.

Him putting her above Malak has to do with his ridiculous placing of Ventress, not that he necessarily puts Malak low.

Ventress. Just the superior combatant.

I know. I just wanted, that If he reads your post, that he knows, that I wish, that he responds.

That.
That.
That.
That.
That.
Dat.
That.
That.
That.
That.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
DD has Ventress like Dooku level, lol.

Him putting her above Malak has to do with his ridiculous placing of Ventress, not that he necessarily puts Malak low.
I think both, tbh.

Well he conceded bias against Malak, so I don't really care.

Tbf if I'm not trolling around I think Malak takes Force and all out if that > Darth Revan quote was just in general and not referring only to his SF self.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Ventress is more powerful than beings that have telekinetically incapacitated an Anakin months after his dreadnought feat. Is Malak superior by such a distinctive margin that he can win on merit of power alone? Who?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well he conceded bias against Malakhas shitty opinions in general, so I don't really care about his opinions at all.


@Syn :P

Lmfao, there's no date to the dreadnaught feat.

Dooku couldn't dominate Anakin mere weeks after AotC.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lmfao, there's no date to the dreadnaught feat.

Dooku couldn't dominate Anakin mere weeks after AotC.

The TCW movie is confirmed to be mere weeks after TCW? Or are you referring to something else there.

That's a testament to Anakin's power tbh.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
The TCW movie is confirmed to be mere weeks after TCW? Or are you referring to something else there.

Pretty sure TCW novel states the TCW movie is a few weeks after AotC, yeah.

I'll have to check that.

It's true.

Didn't know that. That shifts my perspective a bit.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Who?

Two of Dooku's acolytes in The New Droid Army. On separate occasions, each incapacitate Anakin with TK.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lmfao, there's no date to the dreadnaught feat.

5 months after the Battle of Geonosis. The stuff I'm referring to takes place 10 months after the Battle of Geonosis.



That's TCW.

Source for the months?

Yeah, and it's Legends. I've been pushing for TCW to be considered Canon only, but the movement hasn't gotten enough traction for it to be a legitimate case yet.

For the dreadnought feat being five months after the Battle of Geonosis, I believe the comic itself indicates that.

The New Essential Chronology claims that Anakin's mission to Tatooine in The New Droid Army (which is when Saato incapacitates Anakin) takes place ten months after the Battle of Geonosis. Trenox does it afterwards on Coruscant.

I've also jumped on board the "TCW is canon" movement. I think we're much better off not combining it with Legends.

-

Yep, the comic states that it's five months after Geonosis:

http://static8.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5517398-5months.png

-

And here's The New Essential Chronology placing the events of The New Droid Army as being ten months after the Battle of Geonosis:

http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5517403-10months.png

So Saato and Trenox can dominate Anakin five months after his dreadnought feat, and Ventress is more powerful than them, not to mention constantly growing in power. I'm unconvinced that Malak's power edge alone is substantial enough to win this fight.

Doesn't Skywalker kill Saato the same day she chokes him unconscious, lmfao?

Seems like a blatant outlier given that's blatantly beyond Ventress' abilities in the numerous times they fought.

Not sure. It was some time afterwards, and that's all I can remember at the moment. Also, Trenox, who also Chokes Anakin out, is only later defeated by Anakin in a long duel, IIRC, per Fact File #116 or something. I mean, they don't have to be vastly more powerful than him, just more powerful than him - they might have exploited a lapse in defenses or something. Likewise, it's entirely possible to defeat more powerful enemies through saber combat, so that justifies Anakin's performance.

Anakin's blatantly beyond Ventress' abilities in later years, of course, but not necessarily within the first year of Geonosis (until the Coruscant battle, at least). There's a source that describes Anakin and Ventress fighting evenly on Yavin IV, although that's only four months after Geonosis.

My point is that Ventress is more powerful than Dreadnought-manipulating Anakin by a noticeable degree.

Malak wrecks.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Doesn't Skywalker kill Saato the same day she chokes him unconscious, lmfao?

Seems like a blatant outlier given that's blatantly beyond Ventress' abilities in the numerous times they fought.
Agreed.

Originally posted by SunRazer
My point is that Ventress is more powerful than Dreadnought-manipulating Anakin by a noticeable degree.

Yeah, and that's wrong. We saw them fight in OCW, and Anakin proved more powerful.

When he was enraged, yeah.

Besides, Ventress is described as constantly growing more powerful. It's entirely possible that the quote about Ventress being the most powerful acolyte is referring to 19 BBY Ventress (or right before she leaves Dooku) being more powerful than Saato and Trenox back in 22 BBY.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Two of Dooku's acolytes in The New Droid Army. On separate occasions, each incapacitate Anakin with TKWow, really scraping the barrel with your sources there. mmm

That said, doesn't mean Saato (or Ventress) could pull off the dreadnought feat in the slightest.

I hardly even remember the game. Somebody else made the comparison first and spread it around Comic Vine.

These acolytes overpowering Anakin with the Force are blatant outliers.

If they were truly that powerful, they would have killed him the second time around.

If Ventress could with the ease Saato would, she would have in their fights.

She didn't. In their fights, Ventress generally lost / was dominated.

My point is that Ventress would not have been as powerful as them back in 22 BBY, when they were alive, but she might've surpassed them in power by 19 BBY, per her quote. Anakin obviously also grew in power in that time, and by a larger margin as well, so of course Ventress wouldn't be dominating him.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I hardly even remember the game. Somebody else made the comparison first and spread it around Comic Vine. Well whatever, it only makes sense that Padawan Anakin would be inexperienced against dark side attacks, especially considering the Jedi's complacency, but that doesn't mean they can harness his raw power at all. And it's laughable to assume otherwise.

Originally posted by SunRazer
My point is that Ventress would not have been as powerful as them back in 22 BBY, when they were alive, but she might've surpassed them in power by 19 BBY, per her quote. Anakin obviously also grew in power in that time, and by a larger margin as well, so of course Ventress wouldn't be dominating him.
And my point is being stronger than them at any time period isn't relevant, since there's no parity to establish between them and dreadnought-hurling Anakin.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well whatever, it only makes sense that Padawan Anakin would be inexperienced against dark side attacks, especially considering the Jedi's complacency, but that doesn't mean they can harness his raw power at all. And it's laughable to assume otherwise.

To clarify Beni's point, resisting Force choke actually requires substantial mastery as well, as established in Dark Empire.

Ventress 6/10

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
To clarify Beni's point, resisting Force choke actually requires substantial mastery as well, as established in Dark Empire.

What are you referring to?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
And my point is being stronger than them at any time period isn't relevant, since there's no parity to establish between them and dreadnought-hurling Anakin.

So you think the Choking constitutes only mastery, as opposed to mastered power?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well whatever, it only makes sense that Padawan Anakin would be inexperienced against dark side attacks, especially considering the Jedi's complacency, but that doesn't mean they can harness his raw power at all. And it's laughable to assume otherwise.

Malak doesn't have access to Anakin's raw power either, lol.

Also, Ant upped a post from Beni? Times are changing.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Also, Ant upped a post from Beni? Times are changing.
I thought so too.
New alliances are forming.

Last time I checked, Ant thought Anakin genuinely contended with Dooku in AotC. If so, then Ventress being about equal with Anakin four months after AotC and constantly growing stronger is absolutely beyond anything Malak's shown, whether it be losing to Revan or dominating Bastila, who'd be hard-pressed to avoid being one-shotted by characters of Dooku's caliber.

Lol @ Malak not being able to more than contend with Dooku.

Also, I seem to recall how Ventress stacked up against Dooku when they fought after ditching Savage. Hint: It didn't go well for her.

Stalemating somebody four months after contending with Dooku is indeed beyond Malak when Anakin's shown in Legends that he can improve noticeably in just one day. If it's so laughable, why don't you show me anything from Malak to prove he can match that?

That's TCW. We're discussing pure Legends, which, for the sake of this discussion at least, Ant and I are excluding TCW from. Even if we did include it, Dooku destroyed her with the Force, not pure sabers.

Being at least comparable with Traya and Revan is more than enough to allow Malak to press Dooku in combat and either of those two would ragdoll Ventress. Not to mention that his darkside mastery, lightsaber training and combat experience far exceeds that of Ventress.

Even discounting TCW, in OCW Dooku owns the shit out of Ventress right before she goes on to stalemate Anakin. Heck, in OCW Dooku owns Grievous after GG clownslapped Durge and Ventress at the same time. Dooku's also whooped on Kenobi, Ventress' superior, across all medias.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Being at least comparable with Traya and Revan is more than enough to allow Malak to press Dooku in combat and either of those two would ragdoll Ventress. Not to mention that his darkside mastery, lightsaber training and combat experience far exceeds that of Ventress.

Even discounting TCW, in OCW Dooku owns the shit out of Ventress right before she goes on to stalemate Anakin.

Being loosely comparable to Darth Revan hardly allows Malak to press Dooku in combat when AotC Dooku's factually above KotOR Revan as a swordsman and KotOR Revan would be coming close to stomping Malak.

Dooku owns Ventress with the Force in OCW. Not in sabers, which is what I'm discussing.

Lmao, Kenobi isn't factually above Revan. And yes, it does.

He seemed pretty comfortably above her in sabers as well. But I edited my post with more examples. Dooku's also whooping Ventress whenever they fight in the Savage/Ventress fight.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lmao, Kenobi isn't factually above Revan.

Are you quite alright, Neph? I didn't even mention Kenobi in my post. I said AotC Dooku is factually above KotOR Revan as a swordsman, and that Revan likely approaches stomping Malak by the end of KotOR.



Based on what? Darth Revan killing Yusanis and Mandalore the Ultimate? Malak being loosely comparable to Darth Revan doesn't at all suggest he could press someone who's contended with Yoda, Anakin + Obi-Wan, defeated Legends Grievous easily, etc.



Ventress grows in strength after her fight with both Dooku and Grievous, for the record. The fact that she's noted to be constantly growing stronger leads me to believe that by 19 BBY, she's indeed capable of contending with AotC-era Dooku.

Dooku hasn't whooped on Obi-Wan in all media. Not in the RotS novel.

Anyway, my argument is predicated on Anakin contending with Dooku, which is what Ant believes, and which I'm personally unsold on. There's quotes saying that Dooku easily defeated Ventress right before she goes on her mission where she duels evenly with post-AotC Anakin. I'm merely following Ant's scaling here - I'm more than willing to abandon this in favor of the Count.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Are you quite alright, Neph? I didn't even mention Kenobi in my post. I said AotC Dooku is factually above KotOR Revan as a swordsman.

You edited. And he isn't. Nor is he factually above him as an overall combatant. Frankly speaking, Kotor Revan Star Forge feats are easily on par with anything Dooku's done, if not superior.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Based on what? Darth Revan killing Yusanis and Mandalore the Ultimate?

Revan can easily be scaled off of Traya, who you've so handily proven to be beyond the Count in terms of power. Revan and Malak are certainly comparable to her, if not her obvious combative superiors.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Ventress grows in strength after her fight with both Dooku and Grievous, for the record.

Dooku hasn't whooped on Obi-Wan in all media. Not in the RotS novel.

Anyway, my argument is predicated on Anakin contending with Dooku, which is what Ant believes, and which I'm personally unsold on. There's quotes saying that Dooku easily defeated Ventress right before she goes on her mission where she duels evenly with post-AotC Anakin. I'm merely following Ant's scaling here - I'm more than willing to abandon this in favor of the Count.

My point was that she was still far beneath Dooku even after her fight with Anakin, who supposedly challenged him.

The RotS novel is cancer. Dooku's beat his ass plenty of times, Kenobi clearly can't compete, at least the versions that fought Ventress in. Which was quite some time before RotS in Legends, I believe.

I see your point, and agree with you in that. Its stated in the AotC novel that Dooku wasn't going all out against Anakin anyway. And I'm pretty sure Ant based that around the TCW move that you then agreed not to consider anyway, so....

Originally posted by Nephthys
You edited.

I didn't. My post doesn't say I edited. I always said that it was AotC Dooku, not Obi-Wan, who was factually better than Revan.



Jedi Dooku's factually only been surpassed by Mace Windu and Yoda as swordsmen in the history of the Jedi Order up to Attack of the Clones, and this is from a Legends source in 2009, well after KotOR. So yes, it includes Revan, and there's no excuse against that.

Dooku's canonically improved his skills with a blade upon joining the Sith, which factually puts him above KotOR Revan since we know KotOR Revan was at best equal to Jedi Dooku as a swordsman, and quite possibly inferior.



Revan and Malak only get scaling from Arren Kae, not Traya.

I'm placing Traya and Dooku on roughly even footing now in terms of power, actually. Besides, this is sabers.



Your examples were all 22 BBY Ventress. She grows in strength continuously, which means it's entirely feasible.



You can't dismiss a source just because you hate it, lol. My point was that Dooku hasn't beaten Obi-Wan easily in all media, which is something that you claimed and which is wrong.



Which is why that part of my post was designed for Ant, not you.

Also, it's the junior novel, not the adult novel, that has Dooku toying with Anakin, IIRC.

Annoying. I'm not getting into a real debate with a facetious position. Especially if I have to agree to restrictions imposed between you and Ant. Malak still takes this.

http://www.gifbooster.com/wp-content/uploads/4529/asian-woman-mimics-crying-while-smiling_99.gif

http://forums.windowscentral.com/attachments/nokia-lumia-925/36045d1371724973t-gjamy.png

Originally posted by SunRazer
Malak doesn't have access to Anakin's raw power either, lol. Neither does Ventress lol, so we are back to him putting Revan in stasis.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Also, Ant upped a post from Beni? Times are changing. Gross I know, not sure how I'll react when he finally acknowledges my intellectual superiority.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Neither does Ventress lol, so we are back to him putting Revan in stasis.

You said that already.

As for Neph, I guess that means you concede on Dooku being factually better than KotOR Revan. Malak doesn't compare.

NGL, some of Nova's debating here is utter cancer.

Originally posted by SunRazer
As for Neph, I guess that means you concede on Dooku being factually better than KotOR Revan. Malak doesn't compare.

Nah, I'm just not gonna bother to respond.

Well, that wasn't a facetious position, but do as you will.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You said that already. A concession then.

There's no concession. Neither of them have Anakin's raw power. So what? We're discussing mastered power.

Beni, I'm definitely smarter than you, lmfao.

Nova, I'll take up the debate them.

On mobile atm, but I'll be home soon.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I always said that it was AotC Dooku, not Obi-Wan, who was factually better than Revan.
Lmfao what

Jedi Dooku is confirmed to have only been surpassed by Mace and Yoda in Jedi history (up to AotC) as a swordsman. That includes Revan in KotOR. And Sith Dooku is confirmed to have increased his skills in dueling, so he's factually above KotOR Revan as a swordsman.

The Obi-Wan part was because Neph somehow thought I said that Obi-Wan was factually better than Revan, which I never did.

Quote?

And:

Lmfao. The quote states Dooku's one of the greatest in history, but was surpassed by Windu and Yoda.

It doesn't say he was the greatest bar Windu and Yoda.

lol It says "eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda". That means that KotOR Revan didn't eclipse him, so at best, they were equal.

And Sith Dooku > Jedi Dooku, therefore Sith Dooku > Revan.

For one, the quote doesn't necessarily mean what you're saying it does.

That being said, being more skilled with a lightsaber than Revan doesn't mean he'd beat Revan in a lightsaber fight.

Revan's greatness with a lightsaber comes primarily not from his mastery over it, but other factors like precog, augmentation, experience, etc.

Malak should win this one pretty decisively.

@ShootingNova - Could just be talking in the previous context of "Yoda's pupils" *shrugs*

IIRC, would fit given Windu was a student of Yoda too

I can see where your interpretation stems from, but its not as unambiguous as you appear to believe

Yeah, the context could be interpreted as contemporary to Yoda's teachings. It's pretty ambiguous.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
For one, the quote doesn't necessarily mean what you're saying it does.

Given that you've failed to offer me an alternative explanation of any sort, I'm going to think that this is just another one of those desperate denials.



You're right. But that's where Dooku's feats come in. And they're better as well.

Not that Revan's augmentation or experience outweighs Dooku's to any noticeable degree.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
@ShootingNova - Could just be talking in the previous context of "Yoda's pupils" *shrugs*

IIRC, would fit given Windu was a student of Yoda too

I can see where your interpretation stems from, but its not as unambiguous as you appear to believe

That makes no sense. The quote says "eclipsed by Mace Windu and Yoda", so it's obviously referring to all of the Jedi, not Yoda's pupils. The relevant clause is "one of the finest sword masters the Order ever produced", not "Yoda taught many pupils throughout his years".

Dooku brigade took an L, just when they thought they got one up.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Given that you've failed to offer me an alternative explanation of any sort, I'm going to think that this is just another one of those desperate denials.

Refer to what Chaos said.



That's a completely different discussion. You were trying to say Dooku > Revan was fact - it's not.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That makes no sense. The quote says "eclipsed by Mace Windu and Yoda", so it's obviously referring to all of the Jedi, not Yoda's pupils. The relevant clause is "one of the finest sword masters the Order ever produced", not "Yoda taught many pupils throughout his years".

Sure it does *shrugs*

Yoda's tacked on as a "himself" because he's the teacher

He's an extraneous thought to the comparison

Still not sure why you guys put so much emphasis on skill

I'd figure that would only matter once you establish parity between speed and strength... though mostly speed

Tack on shit like discussing who's the better space wizard when it comes to precog?

Skill's fairly limited in general utility in determining how a fight can go

You can have precise blade work, doesn't help you if your opponent is able to strike 3 times for every 1 you can and they're better capable of determining where you're going to strike than you are them

Not discussing this thread, but in general *shrugs*

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's a completely different discussion. You were trying to say Dooku > Revan was fact - it's not.

As a swordsman. Not that he'd directly win in a contest automatically.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Sure it does *shrugs*

Yoda's tacked on as a "himself" because he's the teacher

He's an extraneous thought to the comparison

The "himself" is in personal reference to Yoda, since he was specifically mentioned by name earlier. As I said, the relevant clause is the one about the most skilled sword masters ever produced in the Order.

I'll agree that either position is possible, but that's about as far as I'm willing to go.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'll agree that either position is possible, but that's about as far as I'm willing to go.

Not really looking for anything else on something I've already called ambiguous *shrugs*

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Still not sure why you guys put so much emphasis on skill

I'd figure that would only matter once you establish parity between speed and strength... though mostly speed

Tack on shit like discussing who's the better space wizard when it comes to precog?

Skill's fairly limited in general utility in determining how a fight can go

You can have precise blade work, doesn't help you if your opponent is able to strike 3 times for every 1 you can and they're better capable of determining where you're going to strike than you are them

Not discussing this thread, but in general *shrugs*

Unless you can show me Revan striking 3 times for every 1 on Dooku's part, which you can't, since Dooku can contend with Yoda, then I do think skill is the principle disparity in a blade contest here. I agree that smaller advantages are negligible, but as of yet, I'm not seeing any reason to consider the skill gap between Revan and Dooku as such.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Unless you can show me Revan striking 3 times for every 1 on Dooku's part, which you can't, since Dooku can contend with Yoda, then I do think skill is the principle disparity in a blade contest here. I agree that smaller advantages are negligible, but as of yet, I'm not seeing any reason to consider the skill gap between Revan and Dooku as such.

I'm not asserting Revan possesses that kind of speed advantage?

Again

Talking in general

Should I bold my disclaimer and put it on the top of my post next time? :hmm

My point is that I don't see any advantage on Revan's part for things like strength and speed. So the skill disparity is most certainly pertinent here. Your complaint might've held merit in another case, but not here.

Originally posted by SunRazer
My point is that I don't see any advantage on Revan's part for things like strength and speed. So the skill disparity is most certainly pertinent here. Your complaint might've held merit in another case, but not here.

Its a question, not complaint *shrugs*

I lurk some threads and see focus on a stat I generally disregard in most fiction and asked why its highlighted so heavily

I don't think like the lot of you, how exactly is asking clarification a complaint?

Because strength and speed is one of the "lesser-scaled" traits in SW, with skill and power being one of the more scaled traits. In other words, you need more of a gap between two characters in speed and strength to make a difference, as opposed to say, skill and power.

I'd certainly say demonstrating disparity in strength/speed in Star Wars is more difficult than other franchise given the random non-Force Sensitive combatants that routinely seem to pop up and not get their shit pushed in *shrugs*

So fair enough

Yes, clearly it saying the Order ever produced right before it says Jedi!Dooku's only surpassed by prime!Mace and Yoda means it's only referring to Yoda's students...

Yoda taught himself, y'know, and he's been teaching since the Order began in 69.000 BBY. He's the reincarnation of Vodo Baas.

The Dooku lowballers are getting desperate, tbh.