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He's said in the past that he wants to get rid of the h1b, and to overall make it more difficult than it already is to get a greencard.

Note: all American Nobel Prize winners were immigrants, as are significant fractions of the tech industry, graduate programs, etc.

Discuss.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He's said in the past that he wants to get rid of the h1b, and to overall make it more difficult than it already is to get a greencard.

Note: all American Nobel Prize winners were immigrants, as are significant fractions of the tech industry, graduate programs, etc.

Discuss.

Sounds stupid. He should make it easier to get a H1B, in my opinion. We want those people here. They pay more taxes, on average, and commit far far less crimes, on average. We should be getting as many of those people as possible in this country. We should be staking our "professionals" deck as much as possible.

"Highly educated, highly skilled, professionals."

So why do we want to make it harder for them, again?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He's said in the past that he wants to get rid of the h1b, and to overall make it more difficult than it already is to get a greencard.

Note: all American Nobel Prize winners were immigrants, as are significant fractions of the tech industry, graduate programs, etc.

Discuss.

So Barack Obama, Jimmy Carter, Woodrow Wilson and Theodore Roosevelt were all immigrants.

Thanks for the info.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He's said in the past that he wants to get rid of the h1b, and to overall make it more difficult than it already is to get a greencard.

Note: all American Nobel Prize winners were immigrants, as are significant fractions of the tech industry, graduate programs, etc.

Discuss.

Even people I talk with who benefit from h1b admits the tech industry exploits the hell out of the system. It is not used the way it was intended.

So no wonder Siliconvalley is overreacting, as they exploit immigration as much as the guy stocking his Dunkin Donut's chains with undocumented labor (Happened in my town. The guy lost five locations over it.)

Here's one reaction from tech:

http://www.recode.net/2016/11/9/13574396/donald-trump-victory-silicon-valley-meltdown

https://www.quora.com/When-will-the-United-States-stop-exploiting-H1B-visas-and-start-training-and-employing-its-own-citizens

Here, Quora is a well known discussion forum for tech guru's.

The top argument says it all: Why should American corporations pay money to train their own citizens when India will train theirs for free

So yeah, h1b needs to go (Or be seriously reformed to give American citizens more access to the labor market..)

What did Michio Kaku say about the H1-B?

NK0Y9j_CGgM

Originally posted by Silent Master
So Barack Obama, Jimmy Carter, Woodrow Wilson and Theodore Roosevelt were all immigrants.

Thanks for the info.

Duh, Obama was born on some remote beach in Africa.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He's said in the past that he wants to get rid of the h1b, and to overall make it more difficult than it already is to get a greencard.

Note: all American Nobel Prize winners were immigrants, as are significant fractions of the tech industry, graduate programs, etc.

Discuss.

What would your thoughts be about changing the way we do education in this country so that we no longer need to rely on highly skilled people from other countries coming here? Would that be such a negative thing?

Originally posted by jaden101
What did Michio Kaku say about the H1-B?

NK0Y9j_CGgM

A lot of h1b "educational system" basically amounts to a two week crash course.

Originally posted by cdtm
A lot of h1b "educational system" basically amounts to a two week crash course.

Elaborate please.

Originally posted by jaden101
Elaborate please.

Ok. This comes from a friend from India with dual citizenship I used to room with, who since moved back home.

The way he explained it, they basically take large batches of prospective exployee's (They even call them "batch's" and label each one, like we do a "class", and they cram them full of as much tech info as they could in a short time. Sort of like our own "tech school's" do, but it's all paid for.

Than they ship them out and put them to work. Of course, some don't absorb the content as well as others, but by sheer numbers coming in, the companies usually can't miss for the most part, with bad programmers being outnumbered by the competent.

Originally posted by cdtm
Ok. This comes from a friend from India with dual citizenship I used to room with, who since moved back home.

The way he explained it, they basically take large batches of prospective exployee's (They even call them "batch's" and label each one, like we do a "class", and they cram them full of as much tech info as they could in a short time. Sort of like our own "tech school's" do, but it's all paid for.

Than they ship them out and put them to work. Of course, some don't absorb the content as well as others, but by sheer numbers coming in, the companies usually can't miss for the most part, with bad programmers being outnumbered by the competent.

So I'm presuming this is for semi-skilled electronic production line type jobs?

Originally posted by jaden101
So I'm presuming this is for semi-skilled electronic production line type jobs?

Programmers.

So you'd throw out the baby with the bath water then?

You stifle cutting edge science so US companies would hire US citizens to programme fibre optic lamps and talking dolls?

Maybe simply instead of getting rid of the H1-B just make it for masters or PhD students or whatever

I still feel we need to work on our education. We're so far behind other countries in a lot of areas when it comes to that. It would be nice to get to a point where our country doesn't experience any negative effects if skilled people from other countries decide not to come here.

This doesn't mean I'm saying I just want to never let anyone in. Just that it'd be nice if we had our own crop of skilled and educated people to pick from, to the extent that getting a skilled immigrant becomes merely a nice bonus for this country.

Originally posted by Surtur
I still feel we need to work on our education. We're so far behind other countries in a lot of areas when it comes to that. It would be nice to get to a point where our country doesn't experience any negative effects if skilled people from other countries decide not to come here.

This doesn't mean I'm saying I just want to never let anyone in. Just that it'd be nice if we had our own crop of skilled and educated people to pick from, to the extent that getting a skilled immigrant becomes merely a nice bonus for this country.

It's not just a matter of education though, it's also about populations. If countries like China and India were to take the top 20% top IQ folks to teach/train they have access to more talent then we have citizens in the US.

They have much deeper talent pools to draw from, its simple #'s.

Originally posted by Surtur
What would your thoughts be about changing the way we do education in this country so that we no longer need to rely on highly skilled people from other countries coming here? Would that be such a negative thing?

Sorry, but in the short-medium term that's a pretty unicorn proposal, and not something that Trump has a clear solution to. It also isn't just about education, it's also about talent, which more agreeable immigration policies excel in drawing. And this isn't getting into the ethical questions of why we're denying people who want to become Americans and are working hard to do so the opportunity to try.

If Trump were president during WWII, we might have never had the huge brain drain into America that Nazi Germany caused, and maybe the only atom bombs used in war wouldn't have been from our end.

I agree it's not a solution for the short term. But we do need to do serious work on our education system, and I would think the ideal state for a country would be to not have to rely on outside talents. Even though that wouldn't mean we wouldn't accept any.

Originally posted by cdtm
A lot of h1b "educational system" basically amounts to a two week crash course.

Honestly, it's more about intelligence than education. We need to get super smart people to come here; right now our immigration system allows for this to a degree, but there are still pretty hefty difficulties for even incredible talents to go through all of the hurdles. Trump isn't going to fix that, not if he follows through with his policy proposals.

And yeah, I know that Trump says he'll vet people by skill, but somehow I think he'll really end up vetting them by ethnicity.

Originally posted by Surtur
I agree it's not a solution for the short term. But we do need to do serious work on our education system, and I would think the ideal state for a country would be to not have to rely on outside talents. Even though that wouldn't mean we wouldn't accept any.

Yeah it isn't mutually exclusive.

I talk about education because I have several family members who work in the public school systems and the situation is pretty bleak. I always thought my parents sent me to private Catholic schools simply because of the religious aspect, but perhaps there was more to it. They both attended public schools.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
And yeah, I know that Trump says he'll vet people by skill, but somehow I think he'll really end up vetting them by ethnicity.

What ethnicity are the vast majority of people who are trying to get into the country the legal way?

Originally posted by Surtur

What ethnicity are the vast majority of people who are trying to get into the country the legal way?

Not sure actually, although a large fraction of the highly skilled segment comes from Asia, which Trump's rust belt base won't take very kindly to.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not sure actually, although a large fraction of the highly skilled segment comes from Asia, which Trump's rust belt base won't take very kindly to.

I suppose Asia makes sense, I think some of the countries like Japan are far ahead of us when it comes to education.

There was a large population of Japanese students when I was at UIC.

Originally posted by Surtur
I suppose Asia makes sense, I think some of the countries like Japan are far ahead of us when it comes to education.

Debatably.

But again, I think the priority in this specific category is to attract really smart people. People disagree on the humanitarian obligation we have to refugees, and on whether undocumented workers are good for us or not, but there really isn't a good case against letting the highly skilled in.

I guess you could say that they hurt their home countries by brain draining them, and I would entertain that argument, but I know Trump wouldn't make it.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not sure actually, although a large fraction of the highly skilled segment comes from Asia, which Trump's rust belt base won't take very kindly to.

Have you read the proposals on his website regarding his "vision?" He wants highly skilled immigrants but wants to look out for "American" jobs first.

I hate to burst your bubble but I highly doubt any rust belters will even see many asians since most the jobs we are talking about are high tech and tend to be in big blue coastal areas.

There is also a need for low skill workers that many illegal immigrants do BUT they are here illegally and thats a problem.

Originally posted by snowdragon
Have you read the proposals on his website regarding his "vision?" He wants highly skilled immigrants but wants to look out for "American" jobs first.


Which is a nice euphemism for clamping down on immigrants, given that he wants to prioritize American jobs. How else would he do that?



They don't see many immigrants or terrorists either.



Well if the immigration process weren't as ridiculous, they wouldn't have had to come here illegally.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Which is a nice euphemism for clamping down on immigrants, given that he wants to prioritize American jobs. How else would he do that?

If you have some mind reading abilities you tell me, no details have been laid out to pick apart.



Most people don't see terrorists in the USA. There is an ever growing illegal immigrant flow to work low skill jobs in the rust belt. It sounds like you have a touch of coastal elitism in your views though, naive but cute.



Many of the illegal immigrants that are here that do low skill jobs have such a education level it wouldn't matter what the process was. Many can't read their native language let alone english.

Plus we know that roughly half of our illegal immigrants are from overstayed visas, so how does that work? Are those folks not clever enough to get some help from their companies and if not isn't it the employers fault?

Originally posted by snowdragon
If you have some mind reading abilities you tell me,

By process of elimination, there's little else he could do to "prioritize" American jobs without curtailing immigrant labor.



Yes, they have. By Trump himself throughout the campaign trail, about things like gutting the h1b.




That's my point.



I don't see how that relates to what I was saying.



How does that change the fact that it's clearly an ineffectual process if there are people you acknowledge are helping us that our laws are trying to push away? If the law is actively working against both humanitarian principles and our economic interests, what purpose does it serve?

And I think you underestimate how difficult getting through the whole immigration process can be. Literally I know a former Math Olympiad winner and highly paid software engineer whose visa was just denied, while the rust belt blue collar workers get the magical immunity of birthright citizenship.

They have even less education then the rust belters you denigrate but you somehow believe if the immigration process were simplier they would even TRY to follow it let alone understand it?



Ok so you use process of elimintation to create an outcome that you want to see but don't support that with facts?



The purpose of the GOVT is to make sure its citizens are taken care of first. Maybe your friends should check out the EU then? I'm all for pulling talent from other nations here I'm not against changing the laws to make it easier.

Once again until real details are laid out about Trump's plans for immigrants its all conjecture.

Originally posted by snowdragon
They have even less education then the rust belters you denigrate but you somehow believe if the immigration process were simplier they would even TRY to follow it let alone understand it?


I mean if it were made simpler than they'd be more likely to follow it, of course.



That's a weird way to phrase the burden of proof: I've presented one way that Trump could carry out his promise and that he's actually stated explicitly; what, do you expect me to go over the whole set of other possible things he could do? That burden would be on you, to find an alternative. I can't prove a negative here.



What makes you think attracting the best and brightest around the world doesn't help our citizens?

First and second generation immigrants built the Bomb, spearheaded NASA, founded Google/Intel/etc., were all of this year's American nobel laureates, etc. Quite frankly, if we just relied on "natural born" American talent, we'd not have ever been a superpower.



I'm just telling you what he said himself. Unless if you acknowledge that he's a pathological liar. mmm

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'm just telling you what he said himself. Unless if you acknowledge that he's a pathological liar. mmm


No, once again until his policies are fleshed out from his website then the best we have is something like this:



Taken Trump's website and his 100 day contract, google it. Read through it, he's going to be your president soon and you should keep your finger on the pulse rather then speculate.