Tangent Superman vs Blue Marvel

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"Id"
Tangent Superman vs Blue Marvel

riv6672
BM IMO.

Zack M
Tangent. Mental powers and all.

riv6672
Meh.
Going with BM. This thread got me off the Tangent bandwagon.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t635198.html

Zack M
Any mental resisting feats?

Stoic
Originally posted by Zack M
Any mental resisting feats?

Yeah I forget the exact issue, but he shrugged off a mental domination attempt in the Avengers.

deathslash
Originally posted by Stoic
Yeah I forget the exact issue, but he shrugged off a mental domination attempt in the Avengers. original sin iirc.

Zack M
Originally posted by Stoic
Yeah I forget the exact issue, but he shrugged off a mental domination attempt in the Avengers.

By Moondragon?

krisblaze
BM for sure.

Tangent Superman really swung out of his weightclass. The crossover was a PIS disaster.

Zack M
Originally posted by krisblaze
BM for sure.

Tangent Superman really swung out of his weightclass. The crossover was a PIS disaster.

Which crossover?

krisblaze
Originally posted by Zack M
Which crossover?

Tangent universe invades DC or whatever it was called.

Zack M
Yeah, but he had some decent showings. I don't see how Blue Marvel can resist something like this:

Owning Barry Allen
http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/TS_zps5yaiyuxg.jpg

Owning Tangent Captain Atom in that arc.
http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/TS2_zpscjycw4wm.jpg

More mental shenanigans against John Stewart
http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/TS3_zps2wzqnos6.jpg

riv6672
So the already mentioned Flash feat, a feat against other Tangents who are likely as featless as he is, and a prep feat.

...

BM IMO.

Zack M
TS, IMO.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Stoic
Yeah I forget the exact issue, but he shrugged off a mental domination attempt in the Avengers.

That was against a guy who controls the liquid in your body, not telepathy IIRC.

riv6672
Urination manipulation. Nasty! sick

Zack M
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That was against a guy who controls the liquid in your body, not telepathy IIRC.

If BM has TK/TP resisting feats, then I'll concede (If the TP is on the same level as TS), but as I see it, BM can't stop mental attacks from TS.

DarkSaint85
http://i57.tinypic.com/4vsgep.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/15ehauc.jpg

IMO, he didn't actually resist anything.

riv6672
Well he was either resisting, or needed to take a massive cringe worthy sweat inducing shit. eek!

Either way, my opinion's not swayed.
You were actually the guy who helped me not oversell TS, so i'm not putting him over BM on 3 feats (Flash/featless Fellow Tangents/prep feat on Stewart), and Zack's opinion which amounts to "TP for insta win".

Zack M
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://i57.tinypic.com/4vsgep.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/15ehauc.jpg

IMO, he didn't actually resist anything.

BM supporters will be hard pressed to find anything.

krisblaze
Originally posted by Zack M
Yeah, but he had some decent showings. I don't see how Blue Marvel can resist something like this:

This is what I meant by rampant PIS.

Stewart and Flash taking a dive over nothing.

Zack M
Originally posted by krisblaze
This is what I meant by rampant PIS.

Stewart and Flash taking a dive over nothing.

He also treated Superman like nothing in his first encounter. He's just that powerful. Now if BM has TK/TP resisting feats, I'd take him, but I don't think he does.

krisblaze
Originally posted by Zack M
He also treated Superman like nothing in his first encounter. He's just that powerful. Now if BM has TK/TP resisting feats, I'd take him, but I don't think he does.

He's not "just that powerful".

Outside that crossover he had nothing putting him on that level.

In any non-retarded storyline Superman would wipe the floor with him.

basilisk
Originally posted by riv6672
Well he was either resisting, or needed to take a massive cringe worthy sweat inducing shit. eek! Pretty sure it was the second. Don't think he was resisting so much as as managed to get a blast off while still immobilized.

In any case, didn't seem at all like TP. Tangent's got a reasonable chance here unless BM can pull an actual resistance feat out. BM will sure give the Captain Sisko wannabe a fight though.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://i57.tinypic.com/4vsgep.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/15ehauc.jpg

IMO, he didn't actually resist anything.
?

DarkSaint85
Its not a TP resistance feat, which is what others were saying.

Neither was it a resistance feat as such...sure he was trying to resist (hence the constipation face), but he still had to follow his commands.

The anti matter blast from his eyes? No water there, I wager.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://i57.tinypic.com/4vsgep.jpg

Then you shouldn't have bothered to post the first scan. The group including BM were already subdued.

Except the control over BM didn't last which was obvious in your second scan. On top of that he's the only one who was shown to be actively resisting(after resisting the initial entranced state)leading to the bad guy giving him extra special attention.

Surtur
Originally posted by riv6672
Well he was either resisting, or needed to take a massive cringe worthy sweat inducing shit. eek!

Either way, my opinion's not swayed.
You were actually the guy who helped me not oversell TS, so i'm not putting him over BM on 3 feats (Flash/featless Fellow Tangents/prep feat on Stewart), and Zack's opinion which amounts to "TP for insta win".

At this point we have it being shown Supes demonstrated psychic attacks on multiple occasions, as well as no demonstrated instances of BM resisting any such attacks. I would wonder what it would take to sway you if that isn't enough.

krisblaze
Why is the bad guy always white?

Surtur
Originally posted by krisblaze
Why is the bad guy always white?

Cuz we're evil and we enslave people.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Then you shouldn't have bothered to post the first scan. The group including BM were already subdued.

Except the control over BM didn't last which was obvious in your second scan. On top of that he's the only one who was shown to be actively resisting(after resisting the initial entranced state)leading to the bad guy giving him extra special attention.

First scan was to show he controlled water, not TP.

He was attempting to resist, but still was unable to. Sure, doing better than the others, but still controlled.

celeyhyga17

DarkSaint85
thumb up

All the same, it's not traditional mind control as what Tangent Supes does, that's all am saying.

Does BM have any TP resistance feats?

Zack M
Originally posted by krisblaze
He's not "just that powerful".

Outside that crossover he had nothing putting him on that level.

In any non-retarded storyline Superman would wipe the floor with him.

Of course he is. He was always intended to be that way on his earth. Once he faced the regular heroes that we all know, it only reinforced it. Even to this day, he's been owning those heroes.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
thumb up

All the same, it's not traditional mind control as what Tangent Supes does, that's all am saying.

Does BM have any TP resistance feats?
Traditional tp...? None that I know of. But I think that showing should be considered because having a strong willpower is a valid basis for resisting any form of tp. Not saying it's ironclad that Harvey's tp would be useless however.

As far as how this fight goes, I think TS has the edge based on his powerset. Frankly I need to see more from BM in regards to tp resisting and willpower feats.

Zack M
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Traditional tp...? None that I know of. But I think that showing should be considered because having a strong willpower is a valid basis for resisting any form of tp. Not saying it's ironclad that Harvey's tp would be useless however.

As far as how this fight goes, I think TS has the edge based on his powerset. Frankly I need to see more from BM in regards to tp resisting and willpower feats.

He had fine use of TK when he crushed Barry Allen. Unless BM has will over his own synapse in his brain, BM wouldn't be able to do anything.

krisblaze
Originally posted by Zack M
Of course he is. He was always intended to be that way on his earth. Once he faced the regular heroes that we all know, it only reinforced it. Even to this day, he's been owning those heroes.

Sure, when Flash is a total retard and Stewart can't even keep his ring on.

Stoic
Since when does being controlled mean that the control only lasts for 2 seconds? Controlled means that the character would be actively subdued for the duration that it would take for them to be clobbered. He has a valid TP resistance feat that people are attempting to ignore. No one even know whether or not the guy zapping him is more powerful than Tangent or not either. The question asked was whether or not he had any TP resistance feats, or else tangent would dominate him and win. We need to move on since BM demonstrated that he was at least capable of breaking out of TP control which means that he can actively resist it. No one said anything about stopping the telepath from using their powers.

Zack M
Except that it wasn't TP and TS has more than TP to rely on.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Traditional tp...? None that I know of. But I think that showing should be considered because having a strong willpower is a valid basis for resisting any form of tp. Not saying it's ironclad that Harvey's tp would be useless however.

As far as how this fight goes, I think TS has the edge based on his powerset. Frankly I need to see more from BM in regards to tp resisting and willpower feats.

I think I will go ask someone who actually knows BM, thank you very much. Maybe there's a respect thread for him.

Stoic
Originally posted by Zack M
Except that it wasn't TP and TS has more than TP to rely on.

Ikaris also has TP, but to argue that he'd defeat Thor because of it is stretching things way out of proportion. This seems to be the only thing that you seem to be using to say that BM loses here. IMO it's simply not enough, especially when you take into consideration that these guys would be moving much too fast for Tangent to concentrate on subduing BM with mind control.

Zack M
Originally posted by Stoic
Ikaris also has TP, but to argue that he'd defeat Thor because of it is stretching things way out of proportion. This seems to be the only thing that you seem to be using to say that BM loses here. IMO it's simply not enough, especially when you take into consideration that these guys would be moving much too fast for Tangent to concentrate on subduing BM with mind control.

Thor isn't in this thread. And he has some TP resisting feats, anyway. Show scans of BM resisting TK/TP.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I think I will go ask someone who actually knows BM, thank you very much. Maybe there's a respect thread for him.
thumb up

Sensational idea.

Stoic
BM wins

Zack M
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
thumb up

Sensational idea.

Does BM have any resistance to TP/TK mental attacks?

Stoic
Originally posted by Zack M
Does BM have any resistance to TP/TK mental attacks?

Yes he does. You saw one. It doesn't matter what form it took, he fought off mental domination. It's hard to believe that you're still asking the same question after seeing him do it on panel.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Traditional tp...? None that I know of. But I think that showing should be considered because having a strong willpower is a valid basis for resisting any form of tp. Not saying it's ironclad that Harvey's tp would be useless however.

As far as how this fight goes, I think TS has the edge based on his powerset. Frankly I need to see more from BM in regards to tp resisting and willpower feats.

Well, considering the owner of BM's respect thread said this, I'm pretty satisfied.

Zack M
Since he has none, TS ftw.

Stoic
Having one's mind enthralled by another, and a second later fighting it off is a valid mind dominating resistance feat. How this became a stumbling block to very intelligent people is beyond me? BM wins, against the guy that has feats against those that have none. LOL at TP being the reason for another character winning without question.

Zack M
Originally posted by Stoic
Having one's mind enthralled by another, and a second later fighting it off is a valid mind dominating resistance feat. How is it that this is a stumbling block to very intelligent people is beyond me? BM wins, against the guy that has feats against those that have none. LOL at TP being the reason for another character winning without question.

What TS did to Flash wasn't a psychic attack. You failed to provide any evidence. TS, FTW.

Stoic
Originally posted by Zack M
What TS did to Flash wasn't a psychic attack. You failed to provide any evidence. TS, FTW.

Not my fault that you are incapable of understanding the things that you read. His mind was enthralled, he broke out of the condition a second later. It was a mind dominating resistance feat. One form of mind domination does not rule out other forms. Should we get a Mod ruling? Just concede.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Stoic
Having one's mind enthralled by another, and a second later fighting it off is a valid mind dominating resistance feat. How this became a stumbling block to very intelligent people is beyond me? BM wins, against the guy that has feats against those that have none. LOL at TP being the reason for another character winning without question.

Because he controlled the water in them.

It's like saying people who resist Mera, are resistant to psychics....

Zack M
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because he controlled the water in them.

It's like saying people who resist Mera, are resistant to psychics....

thumb up

Stoic
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because he controlled the water in them.

It's like saying people who resist Mera, are resistant to psychics....

No, it's like BM was able to shrug off the effects that were used to control his brain regardless of whatever dominating effects caused him to lose control of his thoughts. No matter the form of mind domination, it was mind domination. This is like refusing to validate Despero's form on mind control because it differs from Charles Xavier's form of mind control. It's silly.

Zack M
Originally posted by Stoic
No, it's like BM was able to shrug off the effects that were used to control his brain regardless of whatever dominating effects caused him to lose control of his thoughts. No matter the form of mind domination, it was mind domination. This is like refusing to validate Despero's form on mind control because it differs from Charles Xavier's form of mind control. It's silly.

Not the same thing.

Stoic
Originally posted by Zack M
Not the same thing.

Just concede. You're reasoning is flawed and filled with double standards.

Zack M
Not enough. That one feat (even if it was TP) isn't an indicator he can resist someone as powerful as TS.

Stoic
Originally posted by Zack M
Not enough. That one feat (even if it was TP) isn't an indicator he can resist someone as powerful as TS.

You asked if he had mind domination resistance feats. You were given one. You didn't like it, and hopped on the cherry picking wagon. The guy that tried to imprison his mind. was planning on doing so to the rest of humanity. I'd wager that he has very good resistance. How long are you planning on rehashing this? BM would break free of TS's TP attempt. Do you have anything other than DC wins without any proof to back it?

Zack M
Originally posted by Stoic
You asked if he had mind domination resistance feats. You were given one. You didn't like it, and hopped on the cherry picking wagon. The guy that tried to imprison his mind. was planning on doing so to the rest of humanity. I'd wager that he has very good resistance. How long are you planning on rehashing this? BM would break free of TS's TP attempt. Do you have anything other than DC wins without any proof to back it?

No, I said TK resisting. Which you have failed to deliver.

Stoic
Originally posted by Zack M
No, I said TK resisting. Which you have failed to deliver.

And Bm can manipulate energy to the point of a surgeon. What feats does TS have to say that he doesn't have his energy manipulated by BM? See we can both play this game instead of coming up with some hard battle feats proving which of these guys win out.

Originally posted by Zack M
Any mental resisting feats?

TK? Since when did telekinesis become a telepathic power?

Originally posted by Zack M
He also treated Superman like nothing in his first encounter. He's just that powerful. Now if BM has TK/TP resisting feats, I'd take him, but I don't think he does.

Then you switched from TP, to TP/TK. being that he has a super strong body, resisting TK shouldn't be a problem for him, unless you're trying to play TS up to being a Phoenix level TK user. Then I'd have to ask you what you're basing the new comer with very few feats on? Looks like you'll be the one that is hard pressed to find anything.

Zack M
TS can use both, but what he did to Barry, was TK, not TP. You haven't given any feats to suggest that BM can resist. Or TP, for that matter. Sorry, TS wins.

riv6672
You have boundless leaping ability.

You still havent brought anything to the table since i was in here a couple days ago. Maybe by this weekend.

Zack M
Thanks. thumb up

Stoic
Originally posted by riv6672
You have boundless leaping ability.

You still havent brought anything to the table since i was in here a couple days ago. Maybe by this weekend.

That's what he does, and he seems to be the only TS supporter. Looks like burden of proof is entirely on him.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Stoic
That's what he does, and he seems to be the only TS supporter. Looks like burden of proof is entirely on him.

Not to mention, celey, the owner of the BM respect thread, is also on TS' side.

Stoic
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Not to mention, celey, the owner of the BM respect thread, is also on TS' side.

Do you think that owning a respect thread discounts the fact that other people that have read about both characters may have a differing opinion? Since when has these things been decided based on power set?

Zack M
YAWN. Still waiting, Stoic.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Stoic
Do you think that owning a respect thread discounts the fact that other people that have read about both characters may have a differing opinion? Since when has these things been decided based on power set?

Character comes into play, of course.

TS has so few appearances, though, that almost every one of his showings, he relies on TP.

Which means he would, in all likelihood, be busting it out at the start. This isn't Surfer, who has 1001 powers to try, or Flash, who is stupid, or Aquarian, who is....also stupid, lol. Or even Superman, who is...OK, he's stupid as well, lol.

Fight starts, he will use TP. And if one side has no TP feats - well, it isn't looking good.

Stoic
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Character comes into play, of course.

TS has so few appearances, though, that almost every one of his showings, he relies on TP.

Which means he would, in all likelihood, be busting it out at the start. This isn't Surfer, who has 1001 powers to try, or Flash, who is stupid, or Aquarian, who is....also stupid, lol. Or even Superman, who is...OK, he's stupid as well, lol.

Fight starts, he will use TP. And if one side has no TP feats - well, it isn't looking good.

Which once again goes back to BM showing that he can break out of being telepathically manipulated. I already showed you why it is a valid resistance feat. You decided to invalidate it because it was a different form of TP.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Stoic
Which once again goes back to BM showing that he can break out of being telepathically manipulated. I already showed you why it is a valid resistance feat. You decided to invalidate it because it was a different form of TP.

Well....yes. Because TS does not control water. So completely different.

Like I said earlier, if someone resists Mera (Aquaman's wife) does that mean that person can resist a psychic? Or, say, Hydroman? Namor (am pretty sure he has controlled water somewhere...could be wrong)?

Zack M
Stoic doesn't get it.

Stoic
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well....yes. Because TS does not control water. So completely different.

Like I said earlier, if someone resists Mera (Aquaman's wife) does that mean that person can resist a psychic? Or, say, Hydroman? Namor (am pretty sure he has controlled water somewhere...could be wrong)?

And like I said, it was meant to control the mind, so no matter how he did it, the point was that BM broke free of being enthralled resulting in him breaking free of mental domination. It wasn't as if his body was the only thing that was taken over while his mind was free to watch everything around him unfold. Going the route that you are attempting would invalidate guys like Despero, Starro, and Dr. Strange, because they take a different path to mind domination. He resisted an assailant that was actively using their power to keep him under wraps.

What kinds of energy manipulation resistance feats does TS have? I mean if we want to decide this by power set, which has been exactly the route that's been taken thus far. Adam has shown the ability to manipulate energy like a surgeon operates on the flesh when he save Monica Rambeau's life.

TS has no feats to suggest that he wins this, while Adam has shown the ability of breaking out of mental domination.

Zack M
No, he doesn't. You still have yet to provide any evidence. TS will either mind rape BM or screw with the synapses in his head.

Stoic
You're actually the one that doesn't get it. When you do, chime in.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Stoic
And like I said, it was meant to control the mind, so no matter how he did it, the point was that BM broke free of being enthralled resulting in him breaking free of mental domination. It wasn't as if his body was the only thing that was taken over while his mind was free to watch everything around him unfold. Going the route that you are attempting would invalidate guys like Despero, Starro, and Dr. Strange, because they take a different path to mind domination. He resisted an assailant that was actively using their power to keep him under wraps.

What kinds of energy manipulation resistance feats does TS have? I mean if we want to decide this by power set, which has been exactly the route that's been taken thus far. Adam has shown the ability to manipulate energy like a surgeon operates on the flesh when he save Monica Rambeau's life.

TS has no feats to suggest that he wins this, while Adam has shown the ability of breaking out of mental domination.

Except,as Cage's father says - their minds were still their own. He still gets nightmares from the memories. Their bodies were no longer theirs - they would want to scream, but are unable to.

So, mentally, they weren't being controlled. Physically, yes.

Which is what I'm trying to say, which is why I am saying it's completely different.

With regards to energy manip feats - I am NOT debating by powerset. In character, as I have said, TS uses TP a lot. I mean, he has what, two, three appearances? In every one of them, he uses TP. BM, doesn't.

Zack M
Originally posted by Stoic
You're actually the one that doesn't get it. When you do, chime in.

Still waiting.

carver9
Blue Marvel wins 8/10

Zack M
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except,as Cage's father says - their minds were still their own. He still gets nightmares from the memories. Their bodies were no longer theirs - they would want to scream, but are unable to.

So, mentally, they weren't being controlled. Physically, yes.

Which is what I'm trying to say, which is why I am saying it's completely different.

With regards to energy manip feats - I am NOT debating by powerset. In character, as I have said, TS uses TP a lot. I mean, he has what, two, three appearances? In every one of them, he uses TP. BM, doesn't.

Remember, in the Flash instance, TS used TK. Unless BM has a way to resist that, all TS has to do is phuck with his brain.

riv6672
I think you just dont like BM. laughing out loud
You and Stoic have been having the same argument for years now.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-570713-martian-manhunter-vs-blue-marvel.html

Zack M
BM is my favorite character. wink

Stoic
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except,as Cage's father says - their minds were still their own. He still gets nightmares from the memories. Their bodies were no longer theirs - they would want to scream, but are unable to.

So, mentally, they weren't being controlled. Physically, yes.

Which is what I'm trying to say, which is why I am saying it's completely different.

With regards to energy manip feats - I am NOT debating by powerset. In character, as I have said, TS uses TP a lot. I mean, he has what, two, three appearances? In every one of them, he uses TP. BM, doesn't.


You aren't arguing power set? That appears to be exactly what you're doing here, while covering with TS only has this many appearances to fall back on. If Blue Marvel has the ability to break free on control effects even if they differ from the control effects that he broke free from, it was very well likely to be due to his control over energy. What are brain signals if not energy? This will most likely become a physical battle that Adam would win. BM wins.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Stoic
You aren't arguing power set? That appears to be exactly what you're doing here, while covering with TS only has this many appearances to fall back on. If Blue Marvel has the ability to break free on control effects even if they differ from the control effects that he broke free from, it was very well likely to be due to his control over energy. What are brain signals if not energy? This will most likely become a physical battle that Adam would win. BM wins.

As shown, he broke free of physical control. Not mental control. Its akin to breaking free of cables or chains - as shown by Luke's dad, a normal human.

Their minds were still their own, they were just trapped in their bodies.

riv6672
Which means their minds weren't their own. Movement starts with the mind.

With that (tp) out of the equation, and it is, BM wins a physical battle.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by riv6672
Which means their minds weren't their own. Movement starts with the mind.

With that (tp) out of the equation, and it is, BM wins a physical battle.

Oh, but they wanted to.

They just couldn't.

It's akin to being chained down. If Spiderman webs someone up and stops them from moving, even though they want to....you can hardly say he is using a TP attack.

And if said victim manages to overpower the immobilisation, and actually move their limbs...you can hardly say they are TP immune.

riv6672
Like i said, movement starts with the mind. Your chained down analogy just doesnt hold water, sorry.
I can post half a dozen links that describe how the brain works as relates to movement, but that wont change any minds (no pun).
Heck of a thread, though.

Zack M
So, BM can resist TK and every telepathic in comics, just because he has that one feat? Lol

-K-M-
I don't think they are claiming that, but don't agree with the assertion it's a telepathy resistance feat

riv6672
Originally posted by Zack M
So, BM can resist TK and every telepathic in comics, just because he has that one feat? Lol
And TS can best every character in comics, because he has TP. Lol

Thats where we're at, and will be at, 5 pages from now.

Zack M
Originally posted by riv6672
And TS can best every character in comics, because he has TP. Lol

Thats where we're at, and will be at, 5 pages from now.

He tossed Superman like a ragdoll in their crossover. I'd put Superman over BM. Your one feat isn't enough.

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