Knightfall Vader vs. RotJ Vader

Rebel95

I don't have the time for that, and I don't see any point because you clearly are not going to change your opinion.

I'll admit Anakin is more powerful than he is as Darth Vader in regards to his raw power, not mastery. Vader simply has better force feats than Anakin, and that makes sense considering the fact that he's had so much more time to train and refine his skills. Sabers is debatable, I'm inclined to give Anakin the edge.

Ursumeles

Originally posted by Rebel95
Sabers is debatable, I'm inclined to give Anakin the edge.
No, it really isn't.

Rebel95

Yeah it is. Anakin would probably win a pure sabers duel, but it's definitely debatable. If you say otherwise you're either biased or just dumb.

DarthAnt66

How the hell does Vader have better Force feats?

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by Rebel95
I don't have the time for that, and I don't see any point because you clearly are not going to change your opinion.
The point would be to change your mind, since you couldn't debate me in a debate anyway. erm

Ursumeles

Originally posted by Rebel95
Yeah it is. Anakin would probably win a pure sabers duel, but it's definitely debatable. If you say otherwise you're either biased or just dumb.
Let's see.
Anakin, while massivly hindered, so tht he only statlemates someone in TK, who usually would be in his ragdoll area: statlemates/drives back Obi-Wan
Vader: statlemates "shadow of former self" Obi-Wan, and grows after that.

I am inclined to believe massivly hindered to serious Anakin is an bigger gap than ANH->RotJ Vader, tbh. Especially when his feats(dominating Dooku) say so.

Rebel95

Vader pulling a freighter out of the sky and tearing apart an ATAT are just two examples that I believe are beyond Anakin's ability, unless enraged and tapping into his raw power.

I'm busy for the rest of the day. I'll respond tomorrow maybe

Darth Thor

Originally posted by Ursumeles

Vader: statlemates "shadow of former self" Obi-Wan,

I wouldn't call that a stalemate. I'd call it Kenobi holding his own for a while.

But the dialogue "your powers are weak old man", and "you should not have come back" plus Obi-Wan deciding the best option is to give up his life so Luke escapes, all seems to suggest that both combatants knew Vader was going to win.

Ursumeles

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I wouldn't call that a stalemate. I'd call it Kenobi holding his own for a while.

But the dialogue "your powers are weak old man", and "you should not have come back" plus Obi-Wan deciding the best option is to give up his life so Luke escapes, all seems to suggest that both combatants knew Vader was going to win.
They were relative evenly matched.
We also have quotes like this

http://i.imgur.com/jnlwaRQ.png

https://i97.servimg.com/u/f97/17/73/92/12/kenobi11.png

McP

1. ROTJ or split
2. KF
3. KF

SunRazer

How is it a split in sabers? Vader has nothing putting him above even RotS Obi-Wan, whom Anakin is a confirmed superior to.

McP

The Force is split, not sabers.

UCanShootMyNova

Vader.

relentless1

1. ROTJ Vader
2. Knightfall vader
3. Toss up

Ursumeles

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Vader.
LOL

DarthAnt66

Neither of them are more impressive than moving a dreadnought at the speed of a missile, though.

Ursumeles

@Rebel95 All of these accolades refer mostly to the force, lel.
And they put ANH Vader only above Mustafar! Vader.

Rebel95

Originally posted by Ursumeles
@Rebel95 All of these feats refer to the force, lel.
And they put ANH Vader only above Mustafar! Vader.
Did you see this one?

"This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star."

And the first quote Kenobi says his power has matured since he taught him, not since they last fought.

Ursumeles

Yeah, but I fail to see how that put's him > Anakin erm

Rebel95

Originally posted by Rebel95
And the first quote Kenobi says his power has matured since he taught him, not since they last fought.

Ursumeles

LMAO.
Matured =/= being better.

Ursumeles

Definition of matured:

Rebel95

Oh for God's sake, he obviously meant his power has grown.

Ursumeles

Or maybe he meant that he isn't the fussy dumbass he once was?
Also, this is the opinion of Obi-Wan, who likely never felt Anakin's true power.
If ge go by this, Mace thinks that Anakin could be > Yoda, who was an equal to RotS Sidious, who is stated to be > Vader.

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Aren't these both Canon feats? laughing out loud

Neither of them are more impressive than moving a dreadnought at the speed of a missile, though.

DarthAnt66

Also, the fact his power "matured" just means he has greater control over it, not that he has more of it.

SunRazer

Just for the record, Anakin has far more quotes putting him above Yoda than Vader does putting him above Anakin. That's not even considering the circumstances of the Vader accolades, in which case pretty much all of them become invalidated.

Rebel95

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Or maybe he meant that he isn't the fussy dumbass he once was?
Also, this is the opinion of Obi-Wan, who likely never felt Anakin's true power.
If ge go by this, Mace thinks that Anakin could be > Yoda, who was an equal to RotS Sidious, who is stated to be > Vader.
Either way, his power grew. That's what it says.
And lol at thinking Obi Wan never felt Anakin's true power.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Also, the fact his power "matured" just means he has greater control over it, not that he has more of it.
Not necessarily true. Either way, he's more skilled in the force, Anakin might just have more raw power.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Just for the record, Anakin has far more quotes putting him above Yoda than Vader does putting him above Anakin. That's not even considering the circumstances of the Vader accolades, in which case pretty much all of them become invalidated.
What quotes?

Trocity

Originally posted by Rebel95
Vader pulling a freighter out of the sky and tearing apart an ATAT are just two examples that I believe are beyond Anakin's ability, unless enraged and tapping into his raw power.

I'm busy for the rest of the day. I'll respond tomorrow maybe

Those feats are overrated. The freighter's engines had been compromised by Sidious' lightning and so it offered far less resistance to Vader's manipulation.

He also never tore apart the ATAT:

https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/han-solo-attacks-darth-vader-with-an-at-at-2.jpg

Would he have eventually? Maybe. Probably. Collapsed it, at the least. The feat is still rather blown out of proportion, though.

Darth Thor

^ That's not blown out of proportion at all. He not only stopped it stepping on him, but froze it and began tearing it apart. And we know how tough those At-At's are.

It's also the "biggest" TK feat in Canon.

DarthDuelist9

Also notice how 2/3 legs are in the air so he's probably also partially lifting it

Ursumeles

Originally posted by Rebel95
Either way, his power grew. That's what it says.
And lol at thinking Obi Wan never felt Anakin's true power.

Nope. It isn't. It said his power matured, lmao.

Also, Ankin was only serious after Kenobi was taken out in the Dooku fighz, and as he slaughtered the Jedi.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by Ursumeles

Also, Ankin was only serious after Kenobi was taken out in the Dooku fighz, and as he slaughtered the Jedi.

Doesn't matter. Kenobi knew his power well, which is why he probably spent half of that 10 years of training teaching him to hold back and surpress his rage.

And even during TCW, he'd seen Ani go toe to toe with Dooku on numerous occasions, in a way Kenobi wasn't really capable of.

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Also notice how 2/3 legs are in the air so he's probably also partially lifting it
Force feats for Vader > Anakin?

ChaosTheory123

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Force feats for Vader > Anakin?

Not instantly dying to Sidious' Lightning kiddo

Anakin really has nothing on that featwise *shrugs*

You can debate accolades all day

The internet hasn't been in agreement since RotS first aired

But in terms of feats, having the full power of Sidious inflicted upon him and not instantly dying is better than anything Anakin Skywalker did as a Jedi

DarthAnt66

The novel states Palpatine's power was spread in every direction. And it wasn't his "full power" regardless.

So nah.

MythLord

And didn't one of the FotJ books imply Vader went into Oneness to kill Sheev... Besides, if Mace or Dooku can do it: so can Annie.

Ursumeles

IIRC, Jacen mused that in TUF.

Rebel95

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Nope. It isn't. It said his power matured, lmao.

Also, Ankin was only serious after Kenobi was taken out in the Dooku fighz, and as he slaughtered the Jedi.
Pretty much the same thing, not sure what's so hard to understand about that. If something matures it tends to be an improvement..

That doesn't mean he never sensed Anakin's power. He trained Anakin for over 10 years, he obviously knew what he was capable of.

Ursumeles

Nope, not power-wise, lmfao.

Yeah...and given that Anakin grew from getting destroyed by Dooku, to statlemating Dooku in less than 3 years, to absolutely dominating Dooku in a few months, I would say that he don't must have felt his power.

DarthAnt66

"As his grandfather had done, he had broken through the apparent opposites that concealed the absolute nature of the Force, and found his way into an unseen unity that existed beyond the seeming separateness of the world. For a moment all the cosmic tumblers had clicked into place, and light and dark sides became something he could balance within himself, without having to remain on one side or the other."

thumb up

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by Rebel95
Pretty much the same thing, not sure what's so hard to understand about that. If something matures it tends to be an improvement..

That doesn't mean he never sensed Anakin's power. He trained Anakin for over 10 years, he obviously knew what he was capable of.
As Nova stated, more quotes state Anakin > Yoda than Vader > Anakin, and most of the Vader > Anakin ones are ambiguous, circumstantial, or hilariously outdated.

Face it: You don't want to debate me in Anakin vs Vader because you know you'd lose.

Rebel95

Can you post the quotes

I don't have time to spend on a full on debate with you and I don't really care enough.

DarthAnt66

"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger." - Mace Windu

-

"Gillard also reports that the duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived. 'Obi-Wan taught Anakin and Anakin has gone past him,' he notes. 'But when you get to that duel, it's emotional. That's where the mistake will be made. And if you know the characters, you know Obi-Wan isn't going to get emotional and he doesn't make mistakes.'" - The Making of Revenge of the Sith

---

"'I'm more powerful than any of you (the Jedi Council).' It was a boy's expression of anger, but it was true." - Jacen Solo

---

"Clearly Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi who had ever sat on the Council. But as Obi-Wan had told him time and again, the essence of being a Jedi didn't hinge on attaining mastery of the Force, but on attaining mastery over oneself." - Obi-Wan Kenobi

---

"This makes Anakin, in effect, a Jedi Master, a rank that Anakin, with his unprecedented power in the Force, feels has been long overdue."- Star Wars Miniatures Ultimate Missions: Revenge of the Sith

---

"Anakin Skywalker is the most powerful Jedi in over a thousand years." - Star Wars Miniatures Ultimate Missions: Revenge of the Sith

---

"Obi-Wan Kenobi has endured the unenviable task of training the Jedi Order's most powerful and headstrong young Jedi, Anakin Skywalker." - Star Wars Miniatures Ultimate Missions: Revenge of the Sith

---

"As Palpatine, he befriended Skywalker, becoming a close friend and a fatherly authority to a youthful warrior often confused by his seemingly boundless power and abilities he had at his disposal." - Databanks

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by Rebel95
I don't have time to spend on a full on debate with you and I don't really care enough.
Lies. You're always debating Vader > Anakin. You clearly have time and care.

Ursumeles

You forgot the quote which says: "Anakin Skywalker-the strongest Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of all generations" or something similar.

ChaosTheory123

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The novel states Palpatine's power was spread in every direction. And it wasn't his "full power" regardless.

So nah.

Spreading every direction hardly matters when the points of entry each bolt of lightning possesses is hilariously small in surface area. Sure, it eventually diffuses through the entire body, but the fact remains the Lightning initiates interaction over a small surface area

Pretty sure DE endnotes at the back of the first comic say otherwise regarding the power Sudious harnessed kiddo

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Spreading every direction hardly matters when the points of entry each bolt of lightning possesses is hilariously small in surface area. Sure, it eventually diffuses through the entire body, but the fact remains the Lightning initiates interaction over a small surface area

Pretty sure DE endnotes at the back of the first comic say otherwise regarding the power Sudious harnessed kiddo
I meant it went in every direction in the area around Palpatine, not every direction within Vader.

I doubt it.

Rebel95

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger." - Mace Windu

-

"Gillard also reports that the duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived. 'Obi-Wan taught Anakin and Anakin has gone past him,' he notes. 'But when you get to that duel, it's emotional. That's where the mistake will be made. And if you know the characters, you know Obi-Wan isn't going to get emotional and he doesn't make mistakes.'" - The Making of Revenge of the Sith

---

"'I'm more powerful than any of you (the Jedi Council).' It was a boy's expression of anger, but it was true." - Jacen Solo

---

"Clearly Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi who had ever sat on the Council. But as Obi-Wan had told him time and again, the essence of being a Jedi didn't hinge on attaining mastery of the Force, but on attaining mastery over oneself." - Obi-Wan Kenobi

---

"This makes Anakin, in effect, a Jedi Master, a rank that Anakin, with his unprecedented power in the Force, feels has been long overdue."- Star Wars Miniatures Ultimate Missions: Revenge of the Sith

---

"Anakin Skywalker is the most powerful Jedi in over a thousand years." - Star Wars Miniatures Ultimate Missions: Revenge of the Sith

---

"Obi-Wan Kenobi has endured the unenviable task of training the Jedi Order's most powerful and headstrong young Jedi, Anakin Skywalker." - Star Wars Miniatures Ultimate Missions: Revenge of the Sith

---

"As Palpatine, he befriended Skywalker, becoming a close friend and a fatherly authority to a youthful warrior often confused by his seemingly boundless power and abilities he had at his disposal." - Databanks
These quotes just confirm that Anakin has more raw power than anyone, I'm not arguing against that. But he isn't able to control it or use it consistently.

DarthDuelist9

Originally posted by Rebel95
These quotes just confirm that Anakin has more raw power than anyone, I'm not arguing against that. But he isn't able to control it or use it consistently. Happy Dance

Darth Thor

Originally posted by Rebel95
These quotes just confirm that Anakin has more raw power than anyone, I'm not arguing against that. But he isn't able to control it or use it consistently.

I mean owning the Son and Daughter is proof enough that as Anakin he had access to power that he never did as Vader, and that no other Jedi/Sith ever could match.

But I agree that on a consistent basis Vader with his greater Force mastery seems to be better.

Either way, it's the same f***ing guy, so quit arguing and just embrace his Awesomeness

DarthAnt66

ChaosTheory123

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I meant it went in every direction in the area around Palpatine, not every direction within Vader.

Not what I meant kiddo

That being said, I am over complicating it with what I noted *shrugs*

However?

You do know how easy it'd be to just count the number of streamers entering Vader compared to those directed away from Vader would be, right?

Ultimately, you're harping about a percentage of power that doesn't make that much of a difference once you get to a great enough order of magnitude

You're not old enough to be having memory problems kiddo :maybe

I've discussed and linked this to you before

I've also discussed and linked it in the context of demonstrating one can't suggest Vader endured all Sidious' power from the Lightning and yet try and claim it was the pithy, omnidirectional, multiple kilometer away explosion that ultimately killed Vader

All the same, I'm not sure how you forgot it *shrugs*