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Just curious what tier people think they fall into

Vaylin is about Vader level as a Force user, mid-high council tier as a lightsaber combatant and Dooku level as an overall combatant.

Senya is about TPM Maul level as a lightsaber combatant and about that level as an overall combatant.

Edit: Just read the fight between Vaylin and Senya. Would place Vaylin at around Qui Gon's level as an overall lightsaber combatant.

Revan is going to be fooder to MVayPlin when KOTET ends.

Maybe. She's certainly doing well for herself so far.

Deep in the dirt.

Lmao. Damn Beni.

Greater than Bane

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Edit: Just read the fight between Vaylin and Senya. Would place Vaylin at around Qui Gon's level as an overall lightsaber combatant.

Read?

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Read?
http://www.swtor.com/info/news/blog/20161117

Damn, can't believe I haven't seen that yet

Edit: I initially thought he meant there was a written version of the Battle of Asylum

LMAO
Ant posted it hours ago ^^
I'll rank them after reading, but Vaylin seems a Bane/Dooku Tier force User as of KotFE(+ as of KotET), with more raw power, but less mastery.

Vaylin is Vader level as a Force user and maybe Qui-Gon level as a swordsman.
Senya is probably ROTS Kenobi/TCW Maul level combatant.

Vader would ragdoll Vaylin, nothing shes ever done suggests that she can compete with Vader.

Her potential, nor her raw power suggest that she can do so.

Senya can stomp a bunch of fodder and has a lot of experience, so she's about Kas'im-level in skill and Force augmentation. Vaylin is a bit below PoD Bane-level in skill and Force augmentation, due to her being inferior to Senya in skill and not being strong enough in the Force to beat her. So I'd say both of them are high-level fodder as overall duelists.

Senya is an average Force sensitive, maybe a bit above. Vaylin can do a Force Maelstrom and ignite flammable objects with Lightning, as well as crush massive buildings with TK. Solidly below Dooku, but she can compete.

Overall, Senya's slightly above average, maybe Kanan-level overall, and Vaylin's about AotC Anakin-level.

Originally posted by Azronger
Senya can stomp a bunch of fodder and has a lot of experience, so she's about Kas'im-level in skill and Force augmentation. Vaylin is a bit below PoD Bane-level in skill and Force augmentation, due to her being inferior to Senya in skill and not being strong enough in the Force to beat her. So I'd say both of them are high-level fodder as overall duelists.

She is, tho.
She could've crushed Senya's skull wirh ease.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Vader would ragdoll Vaylin, nothing shes ever done suggests that she can compete with Vader.

Her potential, nor her raw power suggest that she can do so.
Bullshit.

Darth Vader has advantage in Lightsaber combat but he is not beating Vaylin with Force powers.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
LMAO
Ant posted it hours ago ^^
I'll rank them after reading, but Vaylin seems a Bane/Dooku Tier force User as of KotFE(+ as of KotET), with more raw power, but less mastery.
What have they done to suggest that they are on par with Vaylin as Force-users?

They wouldn't even register on Valkorion's radar and he felt it necessary to suppress Vaylin's powers. Don't post mindless garbage.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
She is, tho.
She could've crushed Senya's skull wirh ease.

I meant in a duel.

@Az


@LeGenD Lmao. He supressed her power, because of her potential.
Or do you wanna say Child Vaylin >> Arcann?

Originally posted by Ursumeles
@Az


@LeGenD Lmao. He supressed her power, because of her potential.
Or domyou wanna say Child Vaylin >> Arcann?
She was very strong even during her childhood and reckless.

Obviously. But do you think that she could beat Arcann as of KotFE in a Force Battle, even as child?

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Obviously. But do you think that she could beat Arcann as of KotFE in a Force Battle, even as child?
She was more powerful than her brothers throughout.

Originally posted by Azronger
Senya can stomp a bunch of fodder and has a lot of experience, so she's about Kas'im-level in skill and Force augmentation. Vaylin is a bit below PoD Bane-level in skill and Force augmentation, due to her being inferior to Senya in skill and not being strong enough in the Force to beat her. So I'd say both of them are high-level fodder as overall duelists.

Senya is an average Force sensitive, maybe a bit above. Vaylin can do a Force Maelstrom and ignite flammable objects with Lightning, as well as crush massive buildings with TK. Solidly below Dooku, but she can compete.

Overall, Senya's slightly above average, maybe Kanan-level overall, and Vaylin's about AotC Anakin-level.

@LeG Raw power wise? Sure. But raw power wise is TPM Anakin > Valkorion.

Originally posted by Azronger
Senya can stomp a bunch of fodder and has a lot of experience, so she's about Kas'im-level in skill and Force augmentation. Vaylin is a bit below PoD Bane-level in skill and Force augmentation, due to her being inferior to Senya in skill and not being strong enough in the Force to beat her. So I'd say both of them are high-level fodder as overall duelists.

Senya is an average Force sensitive, maybe a bit above. Vaylin can do a Force Maelstrom and ignite flammable objects with Lightning, as well as crush massive buildings with TK. Solidly below Dooku, but she can compete.

Overall, Senya's slightly above average, maybe Kanan-level overall, and Vaylin's about AotC Anakin-level.

You gave them too much credit.

Originally posted by Azronger
Senya can stomp a bunch of fodder and has a lot of experience, so she's about Kas'im-level in skill and Force augmentation. Vaylin is a bit below PoD Bane-level in skill and Force augmentation, due to her being inferior to Senya in skill and not being strong enough in the Force to beat her. So I'd say both of them are high-level fodder as overall duelists.
Bunch of fodder who are better than an average Jedi Knight, individually.

Originally posted by Azronger
Senya is an average Force sensitive, maybe a bit above.
Excuse me?

Senya made it possible to lift the Gravestone from the ground, alongside Lana Beniko and the Outlander. Even if we assume that the latter was contributing more to the effort than the former two, Senya would still be capable of lifting tons of rocks from the ground. This is further apparent from the fact that Senya easily removed substantial amount of debris that was blocking her entrance to the chamber where Arcann was lying.

She is definitely above average.

Originally posted by Azronger
Vaylin can do a Force Maelstrom and ignite flammable objects with Lightning, as well as crush massive buildings with TK. Solidly below Dooku, but she can compete.
When have Count Dooku:

1. Destroyed a multi-story structure (or a building) and hurled its chunks like missiles towards a target?
2. Tanked an explosion that was potent enough to vaporize above-average Force-users?
3. Destroyed an entire contingent of Force-users?
4. Chugged Starships like missiles or even tore them apart?
5. Conjure a Force-maelstrom?

And after all that, she is solidly below Count Dooku? Common sense is a thing that needs to be taught now, I suppose.

Originally posted by Azronger
Overall, Senya's slightly above average, maybe Kanan-level overall, and Vaylin's about AotC Anakin-level.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
But raw power wise is TPM Anakin > Valkorion.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Raw power = potential

Originally posted by Beniboybling

If this guy is upping something, than that post is terribly faulty.

Not long ago, you asserted that Vaylin is not able to bring her raw power to bear in a fight effectively, that is why she lost to Senya. You should be ashamed of yourself.

You're still missing the point, Urs. I meant Force augmentation.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If this guy is upping something, than that post is terribly faulty.

Not long ago, you asserted that Vaylin is not able to bring her raw power to bear in a fight effectively, that is why she lost to Senya. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If this guy is upping something, than that post is terribly faulty.

Not long ago, you asserted that Vaylin is not able to bring her raw power to bear in a fight effectively, that is why she lost to Senya. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Ok. You are the only non-biased person on KMC, imo.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Ok. You are the only non-biased person on KMC, imo.
This has nothing to do with bias. This has to do with being objective and realistic.

His assessments are typically off the mark. I am busy right now, but I will dig his quotes out and put them in front of you.

Just a heads up darl, my opinion on that fight is unchanged.

Which ****ing fight Beni?

Vaylin's first fight with Senya.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This has nothing to do with bias. This has to do with being objective and realistic.

http://i.imgur.com/y04FN5N.gif

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Bunch of fodder who are better than an average Jedi Knight, individually.

Quote?



The Gravestone feat was a joint feat - not quantifiable. Then we are left with her other feats, which include, as you mentioned, removing debris, which is only somewhat above average, when compared to other fodder Force users - Read.



He can be scaled when considering some of his vast inferiors have comparable feats.



I don't recall him doing that. But when has Vaylin done that?



He hasn't. However, Vaylin's methods of accomplishing that are unknown, and even people like Raskta Lsu have accomplished army busting.



Both in Jedi Quest.



I always cringe when someone holds their opinions as "common sense".

---

But anyway, now it's my turn:

When has Vaylin dominated Force users with feats other than hurling debris?

When has Vaylin one-shot extremely powerful Force wielders with lightning?

When has Vaylin ever probed anyone with TP?

When has Vaylin ever blocked her own Force Lightning easily?

When has Vaylin ever called the abilities of the most powerful Ancient Sith as "lesser arts"?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This has nothing to do with bias. This has to do with being objective and realistic.

Valkorion >>>>>>>> The Father

Originally posted by Azronger
The Gravestone feat was a joint feat - not quantifiable. Then we are left with her other feats, which include, as you mentioned, removing debris, which is only somewhat above average, when compared to other fodder Force users - Read.

Some of those Jedi weren't fodder, lmao. They were just obscure. B'ink was one of the best in her Order, as was Keelyvine Reus, as was Pablo Jill. Granted, someone like say Jeisel or Omani or Tyzen would very much be fodder.

Originally posted by Azronger
When has Vaylin ever called the abilities of the most powerful Ancient Sith as "lesser arts"?

When has Dooku done that?

Most of Vaylin feats are done on a nexus. Except losing to her mom, that wasn't nexus assisted.

Vaylin's raw power is in Vader's stratosphere, but her mastery tales a bit going by Emperor empirical evidence. She's prolly like, a, Corran Horn level duelist.

I have no idea where to Senya at all.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Vaylin's raw power is in Vader's stratosphere, but her mastery tales a bit going by Emperor empirical evidence. She's prolly like, a, Corran Horn level duelist.

I have no idea where to Senya at all.

Are you drunk?

I'm as sober as ever.

Unfortunately.

Originally posted by MythLord
Some of those Jedi weren't fodder, lmao. They were just obscure. B'ink was one of the best in her Order, as was Keelyvine Reus, as was Pablo Jill. Granted, someone like say Jeisel or Omani or Tyzen would very much be fodder.

Whatever.



"Have I not taught you many secrets, Asajj?"

"Scraps. Little devices. Lesser arts. Not nearly what you would if I were your apprentice sworn in blood, I know. I am no fool," she said angrily. As if he didn't know that. As if she needed to convince him she was deadly. "I have learned much about the Sith. Their lineage and their greatness."

"But what of their natural history?" Dooku said. Ventress blinked. "What?"

"The Sith, considered as a species. An insect, perhaps." Asajj's thin lips got thinner. "You mock me."

"I have rarely been more serious." The Count paced over to a shelf of holocrons on the wall, plucked one out, and inserted it into the comm cube on his desk.

-Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

Note that Asajj has performed the Spell of Reanimation, a technique considered "complex" by Sorzus Syn, a peer of guys like Karness Muur and Remulus Dreypa.

Don't see why it's so hard to believe someone that is clearly stated/shaping up, to be a threat to Valkorion, is one Vader's level as far as raw power goes.

I meam, use your brain, lmao.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Don't see why it's so hard to believe someone that is clearly stated/shaping up, to be a threat to Valkorion, is one Vader's level as far as raw power goes.

I meam, use your brain, lmao.

By "raw power" do you mean potential or what she can use right now?

I mean, if both of them sat in a meditative trance is and tried to lift a simarly heavy object, they would perform analogous to the other.

Of course Vader's mastery, and combative usage still outstrip Vaylin's by a considerate margin until further notice.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Don't see why it's so hard to believe someone that is clearly stated/shaping up, to be a threat to Valkorion, is one Vader's level as far as raw power goes.

I meam, use your brain, lmao. Valkorion still not dead yet?

Originally posted by Azronger
Whatever.



"Have I not taught you many secrets, Asajj?"

"Scraps. Little devices. Lesser arts. Not nearly what you would if I were your apprentice sworn in blood, I know. I am no fool," she said angrily. As if he didn't know that. As if she needed to convince him she was deadly. "I have learned much about the Sith. Their lineage and their greatness."

"But what of their natural history?" Dooku said. Ventress blinked. "What?"

"The Sith, considered as a species. An insect, perhaps." Asajj's thin lips got thinner. "You mock me."

"I have rarely been more serious." The Count paced over to a shelf of holocrons on the wall, plucked one out, and inserted it into the comm cube on his desk.

-Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

Note that Asajj has performed the Spell of Reanimation, a technique considered "complex" by Sorzus Syn, a peer of guys like Karness Muur and Remulus Dreypa.

Sorzus is actually meant to be far more powerful than either Karness or Remulus... And yeah, that's legitimately impressive.

Originally posted by MythLord
Sorzus is actually meant to be far more powerful than either Karness or Remulus...
Wut? Far more powerful than Muur? o.o

Originally posted by MythLord
Sorzus is actually meant to be far more powerful than either Karness or Remulus... And yeah, that's legitimately impressive.

Source?

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Wut? Far more powerful than Muur? o.o

Yeah. The gal made herself an amulet far greater than the ones Karness Muur and Remulus Dreypa possessed.

Originally posted by Azronger
Source?

"Though Karness will recieve the first, I will complete more than one amulet. The second will go to Dreypa, so those two fools can battle others unceasingly. The third shall be far stronger than the others, and it shall be mine."

-- Book of the Sith

So Asajj is casually performing sorcery that is "complex" as per the opinion of Muur's superior, and she's in ragdoll range of Dooku...

Yeah, we don't know if she ever created it, tho

Unless she died extremely early in her career... No, I don't think it's neccessarily wrong to assume she did make it, especially when she made one for Dreypa.

Originally posted by MythLord
Unless she died extremely early in her career... No, I don't think it's neccessarily wrong to assume she did make it, especially when she made one for Dreypa.
What has this to do with anything.
2 comes before 3.

It is not neccessarily wrong either to assume she didn't make it.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
What has this to do with anything.
2 comes before 3.

It is not neccessarily wrong either to assume she didn't make it.

No sh!t, 2 comes before three. My point is she planned on making three, and given how her journal goes on for quite a length of time since she made that statement, I see no reason to assume she wouldn't make it.

So far she's batting two for three, at least. Besides, even assuming she didn't make the third one, she still alchemically made a sorcery-empowered object that allows Muur to handle himself against the likes of Krayt and yet still considers a spell like the ones Asajj pulls off and Dooku thinks of as "lesser arts", as a complex one.

Originally posted by MythLord
No sh!t, 2 comes before three. My point is she planned on making three, and given how her journal goes on for quite a length of time since she made that statement, I see no reason to assume she wouldn't make it.

So far she's batting two for three, at least. Besides, even assuming she didn't make the third one, she still alchemically made a sorcery-empowered object that allows Muur to handle himself against the likes of Krayt and yet still considers a spell like the ones Asajj pulls off and Dooku thinks of as "lesser arts", as a complex one.
No. 3>2>4. Take that Atheists.

Anyway, I'll stop responding now, as we can wank Dooku now even better

Dooku >>> Ventress ~ Sorzus >> Muur > Vong Krayt.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
No. 3>2>4. Take that Atheists.

Anyway, I'll stop responding now, as we can wank Dooku now even better

Dooku >>> Ventress ~ Sorzus >> Muur > Vong Krayt.

I know you're joking with that list... but still...

But yeah, this does lend credence to the idea that Dooku is at least in Muur's ballpark.

Originally posted by MythLord
But yeah, this does lend credence to the idea that Dooku is at least in Muur's ballpark.
He always was

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Just a heads up darl, my opinion on that fight is unchanged.
And this is why you are a joke.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Ok. You are the only non-biased person on KMC, imo.

Originally posted by Zenwolf

Why?

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Why?

The only non-biased person? I'm sure everyone has bias of some kind.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
The only non-biased person? I'm sure everyone has bias of some kind.
Not LeGenD.

Originally posted by MythLord
I know you're joking with that list... but still...

But yeah, this does lend credence to the idea that Dooku is at least in Muur's ballpark.
Then why Palpatine did not perceive him as one of his strongest predecessors?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Then why Palpatine did not perceive him as one of his strongest predecessors?
Muur or Tyranus?
If Tyranus, then because he didn't predeced him at all.
And Palpatine didn't percieved Vitate/Ragnos/Kun as some of his most powerful predecessors either.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Muur or Tyranus?
If Tyranus, then because he didn't predeced him at all.
And Palpatine didn't percieved Vitate/Ragnos/Kun as some of his most powerful predecessors either.
Palpatine's assessment is based on what he knows about the ancient Sith. And he identified his most powerful predecessors during OT era, if I am not mistaken. Mother Talzin one of them, so Count Dooku could be counted as well. But nope.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Palpatine's assessment is based on what he knows about the ancient Sith. And he identified his most powerful predecessors during OT era, if I am not mistaken.
Yeah... Tyranus still came after he himself was a Sith Lord.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Yeah... Tyranus still came after he himself was a Sith Lord.
And Mother Talzin?

He added her text because of her knowledge.
Heck, I doubt Tyranus wrote anything worthy enough for Sheev to being considered.

Originally posted by Azronger
Senya can stomp a bunch of fodder and has a lot of experience, so she's about Kas'im-level in skill and Force augmentation. Vaylin is a bit below PoD Bane-level in skill and Force augmentation, due to her being inferior to Senya in skill and not being strong enough in the Force to beat her. So I'd say both of them are high-level fodder as overall duelists.

Senya is an average Force sensitive, maybe a bit above. Vaylin can do a Force Maelstrom and ignite flammable objects with Lightning, as well as crush massive buildings with TK. Solidly below Dooku, but she can compete.

Overall, Senya's slightly above average, maybe Kanan-level overall, and Vaylin's about AotC Anakin-level.

Why do you even post.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
He added her text because of her knowledge.
Heck, I doubt Tyranus wrote anything worthy enough for Sheev to being considered.
Among the 5 predecessors he identified, 2 co-existed with him: Darth Plagueis and Mother Talzin.

Clearly, co-existence was not excluded from assessment.

Ventress was probably just using a Nightsister technique anyway.

And literally who cares about Dooku's idiot opinions. He's one of the most stupidly arrogant and delusional Sith in history, and boy is that saying something.

It wasn't even Dooku's opinion. Asajj called them "lesser arts" compared to Dooku's power. And based on what was it a Nightsister technique?
Not only is that a source that existed before Asajj was even considered a Nightsister, she didn't even know her heritage at the time, lmao.
What, did she just impulsively chant: "Ooga-Booga" and they came to life?

Besides, Dooku's also re-animated the dead in Jedi Quest: Showdown.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why do you even post.

I could ask you the same question, given that basically everyone on this forum considers you a literal joke.

Originally posted by MythLord
It wasn't even Dooku's opinion. Asajj called them "lesser arts" compared to Dooku's power. And based on what was it a Nightsister technique?
Not only is that a source that existed before Asajj was even considered a Nightsister, she didn't even know her heritage at the time, lmao.
What, did she just impulsively chant: "Ooga-Booga" and they came to life?

Besides, Dooku's also re-animated the dead in Jedi Quest: Showdown.

People said it was Dooku's opinion, but yes I see it was Ventress who said it. Then why is this even an issue? Ventress is even more ignorant than Dooku is. Who cares about some petulant shit she said at some point. Besides which, that its a complex ability doesn't mean its a particularly powerful one. I mean, Ventress wasn't even taught Force Lightning or like she said, any of the real deal Sith stuff. This doesn't imply that she or Dooku are remotely in Syn's league.

Originally posted by Azronger
I could ask you the same question, given that basically everyone on this forum considers you a literal joke.

At least people like jokes. I've never seen you say anything that wasn't utterly ignorant trash. You're even more of a biased shitheel than Legend.

People are seriously saying Vaylin and Senya are just average/slightly above-average?

BTW:

Originally posted by Azronger
The Gravestone feat was a joint feat - not quantifiable.

Uh, yes it is. Theres only two of them, one of which is Senya.

Do you need me to explain how this is quantifiable? Or can you work out what 1 out of 2 represents by yourself?

Originally posted by Nephthys
People said it was Dooku's opinion, but yes I see it was Ventress who said it. Then why is this even an issue? Ventress is even more ignorant than Dooku is. Who cares about some petulant shit she said at some point. Besides which, that its a complex ability doesn't mean its a particularly powerful one. I mean, Ventress wasn't even taught Force Lightning or like she said, any of the real deal Sith stuff. This doesn't imply that she or Dooku are remotely in Syn's league.

Asajj didn't compare Dooku to the ancient Sith, dear. She compared her powers taught by Dooku, i.e. raising the dead, as "lesser arts" compared to what she knows Dooku can do.

She's performing sh!t that Sorzus Syn finds incredible, but then goes on to say Dooku knows even greater tricks and Sith techniques. She certainly isn't ignorant of Tyranus' power, thus the comparison is valid.

Originally posted by Azronger
Senya can stomp a bunch of fodder and has a lot of experience, so she's about Kas'im-level in skill and Force augmentation. Vaylin is a bit below PoD Bane-level in skill and Force augmentation, due to her being inferior to Senya in skill and not being strong enough in the Force to beat her. So I'd say both of them are high-level fodder as overall duelists.

Senya is an average Force sensitive, maybe a bit above. Vaylin can do a Force Maelstrom and ignite flammable objects with Lightning, as well as crush massive buildings with TK. Solidly below Dooku, but she can compete.

Overall, Senya's slightly above average, maybe Kanan-level overall, and Vaylin's about AotC Anakin-level.

Possibly the most cancerous thing I've read on here

Respectfully, Neph, Azr would slaughter you in a debate.

His opinion on Vaylin and Senya is absolute cancer, at least that's for certain.

Originally posted by MythLord
Asajj didn't compare Dooku to the ancient Sith, dear. She compared her powers taught by Dooku, i.e. raising the dead, as "lesser arts" compared to what she knows Dooku can do.

She's performing sh!t that Sorzus Syn finds incredible, but then goes on to say Dooku knows even greater tricks and Sith techniques. She certainly isn't ignorant of Tyranus' power, thus the comparison is valid.

Um, what? No she isn't. She immediately makes it clear that she's talking about the Ancient Sith:

"Scraps. Little devices. Lesser arts. Not nearly what you would if I were your apprentice sworn in blood, I know. I am no fool," she said angrily.

As if he didn't know that. As if she needed to convince him she was deadly.

"I have learned much about the Sith. Their lineage and their greatness."

Shes specifically talking about the Sith in general, their lineage and greatness, not Dooku. And from what shes heard, she should be being taught more impressive stuff. Heck, if anything this indicates that Dooku's teachings are lacking compared to the stuff shes heard about. If not as if he actually displays anything that advanced. Syn leaves him in the dust in that department.

And you're lying about Syn finding it incredible. Literally all she says is that its a complex ability. Syn's ability to create incredibly powerful amulets and Leviathans and stand amongst the Exiles marks her as far greater than Ventress' paltry abilities.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Respectfully, Neph, Azr would slaughter you in a debate.

Go **** a wall socket.

Originally posted by Petrus
His opinion on Vaylin and Senya is absolute cancer, at least that's for certain.
Even I don't rank them that low.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Um, what? No she isn't. She immediately makes it clear that she's talking about the Ancient Sith:

"Scraps. Little devices. Lesser arts. Not nearly what you would if I were your apprentice sworn in blood, I know. I am no fool," she said angrily.

As if he didn't know that. As if she needed to convince him she was deadly.

"I have learned much about the Sith. Their lineage and their greatness."

Shes specifically talking about the Sith in general, their lineage and greatness, not Dooku.

And you're lying about Syn finding it incredible. Literally all she says is that its a complex ability. Syn's ability to create incredibly powerful amulets and Leviathans and stand amongst the Exiles marks her as far greater than Ventress' paltry abilities.

Um, she just says she saw the Sith lineage and realized Dooku's been teaching her lesser arts of it as oppose to what he truly knows about it. Clearly Dooku knows more about these "higher arts" that come from the greatness of these Sith than Asajj, and Ventress already knows spells that even Sorzus Syn, who can do all the things you listed, finds complex.

Defining complex: "something consisting of many different parts, that is complicated in nature". With that in mind, it seems to imply to me that Sorzus raising the dead required for her to have prep, if we take it literally, or it just wasn't an easy thing to do, if we look at it logically. Asajj is casually pulling it off.

Obviously Sorzus is more knowledgable and powerful than Asajj, given her hype and other sorcery feats, but the fact that something she finds difficult is a "lesser art" compared to the "greatness of the Sith" that Dooku knew... well, let's just say that definitely places Tyranus in her general league.

Originally posted by MythLord
Um, she just says she saw the Sith lineage and realized Dooku's been teaching her lesser arts of it as oppose to what he truly knows about it. Clearly Dooku knows more about these "higher arts" that come from the greatness of these Sith than Asajj, and Ventress already knows spells that even Sorzus Syn, who can do all the things you listed, finds complex.

Defining complex: "something consisting of many different parts, that is complicated in nature". With that in mind, it seems to imply to me that Sorzus raising the dead required for her to have prep, if we take it literally, or it just wasn't an easy thing to do, if we look at it logically. Asajj is casually pulling it off.

Obviously Sorzus is more knowledgable and powerful than Asajj, given her hype and other sorcery feats, but the fact that something she finds difficult is a "lesser art" compared to the "greatness of the Sith" that Dooku knew... well, let's just say that definitely places Tyranus in her general league.

Errrrrrrrr, you basically just agreed with me and then made an assumption that "clearly" Dooku knows more. Nothing as such is indicated by Ventress. She makes no mention of Dooku's abilities. The only thing shes going off of are stories about the Sith, not anything shes witnessed from him.

Thats an incredible assumption. Theres no evidence Syn found it difficult, your just making shit up and stretching it as far as you need to fit your argument. You can perform something complex casually, even going by that definition. Juggling is pretty complex and people can do it with their eyes closed. Or insert any other feat people would term as indisputably complex that can still be performed without much effort.

No it doesn't. It's hearsay, for one thing. Not actual evidence in any form. Ventress is just going off of legends and assumptions while being a petulant child. Secondly, just because someone can do a similar thing to someone else doesn't make them comparable. Kaan did something Krayt did in his prime and in fact one upped him on it. Kaan > Post-Rebirth Krayt????? Hardly.

Besides which, Syn's section in the Book of Sith was written when she still discovering the secrets of sorcery, in its infant stages no less. Pretty sure she's literally the first Sith to learn sorcery, lol. Its not representative of her prime. And theres no indication that its the same technique we're talking about. Syn's description is of a ritual that requires spoken incantations and raises legions of dead that last for millennia. Which I don't believe is accurate with what Ventress does. So she could just be using a similar ability, thats perhaps on a smaller scale and easier to perform, without the need for spoken phrases.

At any rate, this comparison simply doesn't cut it.

Originally posted by Petrus
His opinion on Vaylin and Senya is absolute cancer, at least that's for certain.

Pretty much everything Neph posts would qualify. Which is why he's universally derided.

Originally posted by MythLord
Sorzus is actually meant to be far more powerful than either Karness or Remulus...

?

Wolf I just read your reasoning for that and there's nothing which notes it was the Talisman that allowed Muur to compete with Krayt. In fact the Talisman seems to simply have the unique ability to create Rakghouls and contain Muur's spirit but all of Muur's accomplishments while bound to the Talisman were attributed to his own power.

And no, there's no evidence pointing to her having made a third amulet greater then the other two or evidence that it would have allowed her to surpass Muur or Dreypa as their power is not based solely off what they receive from these artifacts.

Wow, I triggered the **** of Neph

Neph is easily triggered. To be fair there, you were going for that response with that post right?

Originally posted by Azronger
Wow, I triggered the **** of Neph

Don't mistake a patronising tone for anger. You aren't Gideon, after all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
BTW:



Uh, yes it is. Theres only two of them, one of which is Senya.

Do you need me to explain how this is quantifiable? Or can you work out what 1 out of 2 represents by yourself?

Unless you have definitive proof Senya did half the job, then it's unquantifiable. So we're back to her hurling debris.

Originally posted by Azronger
Unless you have definitive proof Senya did half the job, then it's unquantifiable. So we're back to her hurling debris.

Don't be a fool. The other individual was only Lana, who isn't a particularly notable Force User, especially when Zakuul Knights are superior on average anyway. Senya is one of the top Knights, whereas Lana is an above average Sith Lord essentially. Senya would obviously be doing at least half of the work, and probably more than that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't be a fool. The other individual was only Lana, who isn't a particularly notable Force User, especially when Zakuul Knights are superior on average anyway. Senya would obviously be doing at least half of the work, and probably more than that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZCSdUgGlgQ&t=13m39s

Originally posted by Azronger
So we're back to her hurling debris.

Originally posted by Azronger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZCSdUgGlgQ&t=13m39s

I didn't say she was shit, but Senya is obviously superior or at least on par. You'd know this if you'd actually played the game. Hurling back some Knights doesn't compare to hurling back the Outlander or beating Vaylin.

Regardless of percentages though, a healthy chunk of that feat is still incredible no matter which side of the 50% line you're on.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't say she was shit, but Senya is obviously superior or at least on par. Hurling back some Knights doesn't compare to hurling back the Outlander or beating Vaylin.

The Outlander was distracted, lol. And beating Vaylin is a saber feat (what does she even have in that category anyway?), so it's irrelevant.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Regardless of percentages though, a healthy chunk of that feat is still incredible no matter which side of the 50% line you're on.

Please attempt to quantify "incredible".

Originally posted by Azronger
So we're back to her hurling debris.

Originally posted by Azronger
The Outlander was distracted, lol. And beating Vaylin is a saber feat (what does she even have in that category anyway?), so it's irrelevant.

They were still entering combat, their basic shields would be up and Senya threw them ridiculously far. And Senya fought Vaylin for ****ing ages, it was obviously not a 100% saber duel.

Stop trying to dismiss a feat just because its good.

Originally posted by Azronger
Please attempt to quantify "incredible".

40+% of the weight of a capital ship the size of the Gravestone. Several thousand tonnes or more most likely.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They were still entering combat, their basic shields would be up and Senya threw them ridiculously far. And Senya fought Vaylin for ****ing ages, it was obviously not a 100% saber duel.

Stop trying to dismiss a feat just because its good.

"Basic shields" are hilariously easy to penetrate. People have done so to immeasurably more powerful characters.

So just because it was a marathon duel, the Force was involved?



Please tell me where got that 40% from.

Originally posted by Azronger
"Basic shields" are hilariously easy to penetrate. People have done so to immeasurably more powerful characters.

So just because it was a marathon duel, the Force was involved?

You mean.... kinda like with those knights Lana threw back?

Yes.

Originally posted by Azronger
Please tell me where got that 40% from.

An incredible sense of generosity to Lana.

Originally posted by Nephthys
BTW:



Uh, yes it is. Theres only two of them, one of which is Senya.

Do you need me to explain how this is quantifiable? Or can you work out what 1 out of 2 represents by yourself?

I love how Neph pretends all the time that the Outlander can only be the HoT logically to wank Arcann, then goes ahead and uses the non-force sensitive cutscene for the Gravestone feat.

Not especially. The fact is that Arcann can perform the feats he does when facing a HoT. And Lana and Senya can perform the Gravestone feat without a force using PC. In both cases this doesn't change if you reverse the protags status. Both circumstances are valid.

I also use the other protags as potential Outlanders. Its just that the Hero represents the pinnacle of the possibilities (in my opinion), and thus the most logical choice when discussing abilities and feats.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You mean.... kinda like with those knights Lana threw back?

Proof that the Knights were more powerful than Lana?



Lmao.



Pulling something out of your ass is the equivalent of a concession.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not especially. The fact is that Arcann can perform the feats he does when facing a HoT. And Lana and Senya can perform the Gravestone feat without a force using PC. In both cases this doesn't change if you reverse the protags status. Both circumstances are valid.

I also use the other protags as potential Outlanders. Its just that the Hero represents the pinnacle of the possibilities (in my opinion), and thus the most logical choice when discussing abilities and feats.

Beni, can you post that gif of Arcann getting shot and kicked?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Beni, can you post that gif of Arcann getting shot and kicked?

That the non-force sensitives are that good doesn't make Arcann bad.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Beni, can you post that gif of Arcann getting shot and kicked?

https://i.imgflip.com/1cexv9.gif

https://i.imgflip.com/1cexxb.gif

Originally posted by Nephthys
That the non-force sensitives are that good doesn't make Arcann bad.

Except that we can see the scene and the non-Force sensitives aren't doing anything impressive, they're just firing single shots in predictable volleys and slowly kicking him.

Originally posted by SunRazer
https://i.imgflip.com/1cexv9.gif

https://i.imgflip.com/1cexxb.gif

Saved.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Except that we can see the scene and the non-Force sensitives aren't doing anything impressive, they're just firing single shots in predictable volleys and slowly kicking him.

Right, just like Arcann is slowly swinging his saber, Vader and Ben are tapping their lightsticks together and Sidious is slowly stabbing Kolar in the chest. You have to give them leeway on speed and capabilities because of the limitations of the medium.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Right, just like Arcann is slowly swinging his saber, Vader and Ben are tapping their lightsticks together and Sidious is slowly stabbing Kolar in the chest. You have to give them leeway on speed and capabilities because of the limitations of the medium.

Even if we use our imaginations here, yet calculate in detail the size of the debris Senya threw, I fail to see what the protag could've done to overcome Arcann through a blaster pistol in a one vs. one combat that wouldn't make Arcann out to be sh*t.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Even if we use our imaginations here, yet calculate in detail the size of the debris Senya threw, I fail to see what the protag could've done to overcome Arcann through a blaster pistol in a one vs. one combat that wouldn't make Arcann out to be sh*t.

Well I would say that they were able to stun him via a blow to the head/kick to the chest and then hit him while his guard was lowered. Which wouldn't require Arcann to be shit, it would just need them to be very fast and competent. Which they obviously are.


I mean, its nowhere near Anakin dueling Hondo for like 2 minutes in terms of embarrassing.....

The difference is that here Arcann can't even block blaster fire from a single source.

I don't think anyone could while stunned, yes.

Thats kind of what being stunned means.

Originally posted by SunRazer
https://i.imgflip.com/1cexv9.gif

https://i.imgflip.com/1cexxb.gif

Lmao @ people using this against him. It's not even canon

Wow, Arcann really stinks.

It's not even canon, the only reason it exists is so the Force haters can jack off to their protag besting the Forceful antagonist

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Lmao @ people using this against him. It's not even canon

It's because Neph was using a cutscene from the non-Force sensitive arc or something.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't think anyone could while stunned, yes.

Thats kind of what being stunned means.

Uh huh. It's still a pretty lame way to get stunned, by the ship shaking (even though the non-Force sensitive protag was just fine) or by getting pistol whipped.

Below Revan, even collectively.

Yoda: Dark Rendezvous takes place in 19BBY, shortly before RotS. Dooku's dominating Ventress by then.

For Canon, he dominates her in Dark Disciple, which also takes place in 19BBY.

And for K'kruhk: the co-pilot thinks it's the controls of the ship, but in reality the editor and the writer confirm K'kruhk brought it down via strength of the Force. And you don't need to be Yoda to manipulate ships, lmao.

So a hyperdrive explosion is as potent as a Force lightning spell of Dooku?

I do not know much about Senya's defensive abilities but she is a powerful Force-user. An explosion that could literally vaporize her from existence, should be much more potent than the blast of energy unleashed by Darth Plagueis that nearly atomized some assassins. So we are looking at a manifestation of energy that only the most powerful Force-users in history should be able to tank.


Your denial is futile.

Vaylin was directly responsible for that carnage. She not just killed a large number of Force-users there but also destroyed scores of Starships (proper Shuttles among them) in the process. No character in the PT era has a comparable showing.


And where is the proof of that?

Dooku is really old at that time. He should be in decline, not the other way round. More importantly, he should be at his best in a setting strong in the Dark Side, not the other way round.

Living beings (even Force-users) never grow in power throughout the course of their existence. Sooner of later, aging takes its toll on them. Dark Side practices are specially noted for accelerating the aging process.


You have comprehension problems, my friend.

It does makes difference if the Starships are corroded; it implies loss of their durability and weight over time.

Now, see the highlighted parts of the revelation above. Dooku was not lifting them and/or chugging them like missiles towards his subjects, he was shoving them towards the direction of his subjects, one at a time. They shattered from collision with each other and walls. Dooku was not ripping them apart either.

Now, let us look at the specifics of Valyin's showing of similar nature:-

1. The Starships were in good (functioning) condition. The Knights of Zakuul were using them.

2. The setting was neutral: Ord Mantell.

3. Vaylin not just shove the Starships around, she literally tore them apart (proper Shuttles among them).

Vaylin's showing is clearly superior to that of Dooku, all specifics considered.


The evidence is in the text. Use your brain.


WTF?

That is just Force lightning.


Vaylin doesn't have to replicate every single feat of Dooku to establish her superiority. We look at examples where the two are comparable and draw conclusions from them.

Vaylin have superior showings than Dooku in all spectrums where they can be directly compared.

I don't recall Vaylin using Force lightning by the way.

Originally posted by MythLord
And for K'kruhk: the co-pilot thinks it's the controls of the ship, but in reality the editor and the writer confirm K'kruhk brought it down via strength of the Force. And you don't need to be Yoda to manipulate ships, lmao. They don't actually. K'kruhk just manipulated the controls.

Originally posted by MythLord
And for K'kruhk: the co-pilot thinks it's the controls of the ship, but in reality the editor and the writer confirm K'kruhk brought it down via strength of the Force. And you don't need to be Yoda to manipulate ships, lmao.
Sorry.

The scans are telling a different story.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yoda: Dark Rendezvous takes place in 19BBY, shortly before RotS. Dooku's dominating Ventress by then.

For Canon, he dominates her in Dark Disciple, which also takes place in 19BBY.
OK

Then it is just like Palpatine catching Count Dooku in his invisible grip in one instance.

Dooku was on a nexus and he attacked her while she wasn't defending herself, mid-conversation and in such a way as to debilitate her to the point of not being able to resist. As seen in the Savage fight, he clearly can't dominate her that easily in a normal situation.

That said, he clearly can dominate her with the Force just not to that extent.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They don't actually. K'kruhk just manipulated the controls.

They do. And no he wasn't.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sorry.

The scans are telling a different story.

That story is from a subjective source of a person who has no idea what's going on and wasn't even in charge of the controls. The actually editor and aid of the author, who definitely has more right to the story than you and your head-canon, confirms K'kruhk brought it down.

.....by manipulating the controls yes.

Have you never heard someone say "bring us down, guy-at-the-controls"? Or did you think the pilot was telekinetically shoving them down in all of those cases as well?

Brought it down through power, I meant. It's essentially confirmed by an out-of-universe, objective source, who worked on the story. That's better than a character who had no idea what was going on, who wasn't even looking at the controls, yelling: "Itz da controlz!"

"Essentially confirmed" meaning "my interpretation of how I want to take it". That guy was sitting in the cockpit as a pilot. Pretty sure he can see if the controls are moving or not.

Originally posted by MythLord
Brought it down through power, I meant. It's essentially confirmed by an out-of-universe, objective source, who worked on the story. That's better than a character who had no idea what was going on, who wasn't even looking at the controls, yelling: "Itz da controlz!"
Authors are hardly reliable and consistent in their point-of-view about such stuff in an email. I can cite several examples. Want me to?

I will draw my conclusion from the content. Author's opinion is non-canon and non-official.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Authors are hardly reliable and consistent in their point-of-view about such stuff. I can cite numerous examples.

I will draw my conclusion from the content.
LMAOWUT
Obviously the opinion of authors isn't infallible, but that isn't an opinion.
The author explains what happens.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"Essentially confirmed" meaning "my interpretation of how I want to take it". That guy was sitting in the cockpit as a pilot. Pretty sure he can see if the controls are moving or not.

No, he openly states that K'kruhk's power in the Force "is enough to tear a ship from the sky." In this case the key word is power.

Also, the co-pilot wasn't even looking at the controls when the ship started going down, and the actual pilot was pulling the controls upwards, something he couldn't do if they were being manipulated.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Authors are hardly reliable and consistent in their point-of-view about such stuff. I can cite numerous examples.

I will draw my conclusion from the content.

In this case, an author/editor isn't giving his opinion, he's saying what was the purpose of the feat/part of the story -- something he has more right to than you.

If the editor/author said: "Well I personally think K'kruhk can pull/throw ships" then sure you can argue it's a fallible source, but in this case he's confirming a part of the story not stating his opinion.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
LMAOWUT
Obviously the opinion of authors isn't infallible, but that isn't an opinion.
The author explains what happens.
Right.

So Palpatine's ability to conjure a Force Storm during the DE era is suspect under normal circumstances.

Revan's growth in power with passage of time is also suspect.

Let us take author opinion at face value now.

thumb up

@MythLord

Same for you.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Right.

So Palpatine's ability to conjure a Force Storm during the DE era is suspect under normal circumstances.

Revan's growth in power with passage of time is also suspect.

Let us take author opinion at face value now.



@MythLord

Same for you.

This isn't an opinion; this is confirming what happened... In the exact same comic as it happened. The Revan/Sidious examples are legitimately retconned later on; this isn't, hence the author's explanation is valid.

Originally posted by MythLord
This isn't an opinion; this is confirming what happened... In the exact same comic as it happened. The Revan/Sidious examples are legitimately retconned later on; this isn't, hence the author's explanation is valid.
You don't get to pick or choose in this matter. Either take each opinion of an author at face value (or not).

So Palpatine's ability to conjure a Force Storm during the DE era is suspect under normal circumstances.



Revan's growth in power with passage of time is also suspect.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You don't get to pick or choose in this matter. Either take each opinion of an author at face value (or not).
Like you take character statements as fact value, but not Out-of Universe accolades?

Also, it was explained in the case of K'Krukh, while it was only a opinion in the case of Sidious and Revan.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You don't get to pick or choose in this matter. Either take each opinion of an author at face value (or not).

So Palpatine's ability to conjure a Force Storm during the DE era is suspect under normal circumstances.

Revan's growth in power with passage of time is also suspect.

I'll gladly take the author confirming an event he wrote, unless his word is contradicted/retconned. Tom's word is retconned, the K'kruhk thing isn't.

Besides, both those quotes are actually opinions, not confirmations of events. Grasp the difference, you reprobate.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Like you take character statements as fact value, but not Out-of Universe accolades?

Also, it was explained in the case of K'Krukh, while it was only a opinion in the case of Sidious and Revan.
I never ignore the context behind each revelation.

Call it an explanation or whatever, it is an interpretation of the author of an event in question (outside the published content). But the published content implies otherwise.

Same goes for the authors of Dark Empire and Revan. They explained the ground realities of their works, after the publications.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I never ignore the context behind each revelation.

Call it an explanation or whatever, it is an opinion of the author in the end. The content implies otherwise.

Same goes for the authors of Dark Empire and Revan. They explained the ground realities of their works, after the publications.
Good joke.

Nope. He explains what happens. Also, Tom's word is retconnected.

No, they don't. Tom's word was retconned, while Drew's is only a opinion.

I don't know why I'm surprised at your inability to differentiate two simple words from the English language... but I hope at least 4/5ths of the forum understand the difference between confirming an event and having an opinion of an event.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Good joke.

Nope. He explains what happens. Also, Tom's word is retconnected.

No, they don't. Tom's word was retconned, while Drew's is only a opinion.
Contradiction is the right word to use. Those interpretations are contradicted in published literature. Nothing else.

Same is the case with the showing of K'Kruhk. The published content gives the impression that the Jedi was manipulating the controls of the Starship in order to crash it. It contradicts the author's interpretation.