Old Master Maul vs. Emperors Wrath II (Lightsabers only)

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carthage
Duel takes place on Malachor

Nephthys
Wrath

Tondemonai
Originally posted by Nephthys
Wrath with ease

Fixed

SunRazer
The Wrath doesn't have any feats above stalemating Ahsoka. In fact, he doesn't have any feats matching that.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by SunRazer
The Wrath doesn't have any feats above stalemating Ahsoka.
wat

SunRazer
Well, in the event that I'm just having a memory lapse, perhaps you could tell me which feats he has which are better than stalemating Ahsoka?

UCanShootMyNova
When did he stalemate Ahsoka?

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, in the event that I'm just having a memory lapse, perhaps you could tell me which feats he has which are better than stalemating Ahsoka?
Conquering an entire planetary army or killing Yonlach plus Yul-Li, Nomen Karr, Wyellett, Drahag, Sel-Makor, or Darth Baras.

Ahsoka never stalemated Maul anyway, though.

SunRazer
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Conquering an entire planetary army

Didn't fight them all at once, so that's more of a showing of stamina than straight-up skill.



Yonlach isn't much, and Yul-Li is fodder. The others don't have any skill feats that compare with Ahsoka's contending with Vader.



They were about even for a minute. That's good enough for me.

Maul's confirmed to be stronger, anyway.

Solar Power
Originally posted by SunRazer

Yonlach isn't much, and Yul-Li is fodder. The others don't have any skill feats that compare with Ahsoka's contending with Vader.


I think the ease he had in performing said feats speaks to the impressiveness in addition to implied skill. Yul-Li has a lightsaber accolade to his name, being greater than any Yonlach had ever trained, and the Wrath bested them single-handed pre-prime. The Wrath basically toyed with Nomen Karr, and killed Wyelett after killing Xerender and his men, fast enough to escape a collapsing ice cavern might I add. The Wrath killing Draagh multiple times in a row attests to his superiority.

The codex's reference to the Sith Warrior's primary method of attack being lightsaber combat factors in to his victories against Sel Makor and Baras, tho I admit they are still ambiguous showings for the discussion of this contest.

Overall, I agree Ahsoka is arguably superior to the combatants that the Wrath has bested, but this would only matter in comparison if the Wrath shared a parity with his opponents. The Wrath however is clearly superior to these combatants, who all have some tidbits to their name, which is what makes the feats impressive. Only Baras is outright stated to give the Wrath a tough fight, with the Wrath winning in the end anyway, and before any power growth the Wrath would have received in chapters 4 and 5.

SunRazer
Who has Yonlach trained that makes Yul-li look impressive in comparison to?

What's Draagh got his name with respect to skill (other than a few generic accolades)? Nomen Karr has nothing to his name that I know of and Wyelett isn't nearly as good as Ahsoka, as I said.

Baras isn't that good either. His feats consist of not losing to Satele and Angral, which isn't on the same level as being above Ahsoka.

|King Joker|
Originally posted by SunRazer
Maul's confirmed to be stronger, anyway. Wrong.

Deronn_solo
The Wrath.

Solar Power
Originally posted by SunRazer
Who has Yonlach trained that makes Yul-li look impressive in comparison to?

What's Draagh got his name with respect to skill (other than a few generic accolades)? Nomen Karr has nothing to his name that I know of and Wyelett isn't nearly as good as Ahsoka, as I said.

Baras isn't that good either. His feats consist of not losing to Satele and Angral, which isn't on the same level as being above Ahsoka.

No one in particular, I'm just using inference since his codex entry states Yonlach is considered "the greatest teacher in his time", I'm assuming Yonlach has at least trained some worthy students to earn that accolade.

Hm, not much. It's notable that he had the advantage of both Baras's and Vengean's teachings, noting that Baras held back when teaching the Wrath. He also has this:

but conceded, he doesn't have much in terms of skill to his name.
Nomen Karr has been stated to be a match for Baras before if I recall, and is stated to be one of the Order's "most veteran masters". I admit, that doesn't really mean much lol.
Wylette and Xerender have also beaten Baras before iirc, Wyelette besting Baras to the point of taking his lightsaber, with Xerender noting Baras was "drained and weaponless". Once again, no real skill feats, but Wyelette has been stated to be stronger than ever, and he had the power to contact Xerender through the force while trapped in an ice cavern. Wyelette surviving years entombed in the ice with no sustenance implies a strong connection to the force to me.

Baras isn't that good? Coming from you how ironic, I found your Baras Respect thread a nice read. But back on topic, being named one of the most powerful sith in the galaxy with his ascension to the Dark Council is pretty good I find, once again nothing outright stated for his skill besides the implied skill one would expect him to have.

Also if we want to mention skill feats, I would like to add that the Wrath killed the Beast of Marka Ragnos single handed, armed with only a sith warblade. The death of said beast causing a tremor in the force. And there's the fact the Emperor's Wrath was stated to have been picked from millions of sith candidates for the position, which while combat prowess may not be the sole factor in determining the position, is still likely to be a notable factor to consider.

Anyway, you've made your point that the Wrath's opponents don't have much in terms of skill to their names, but I have hopefully disproved the notion that they are complete fodder. To reiterate:
* The Wrath's primary form of attack is stated to be lightsaber combat, thus it is logical to presume that that is the method in which he bested most of his foes.
*The Wrath bested most of these foes with noticeable ease. Despite the lack of attributable lightsaber skill to their names, the these foes are by no means fodder. This isn't even counting the numerous nameless Jedi and Sith the Wrath has killed while performing his tasks.

There's probably more Wrath wank that can be pulled up later, so to be continued...

SunRazer
Originally posted by |King Joker|
Wrong.

What's changed since the quote?

SunRazer
@Solar Power - I didn't say they're fodder, just that they're nowhere near as skilled as Ahsoka.

Solar Power
Originally posted by SunRazer
@Solar Power - I didn't say they're fodder, just that they're nowhere near as skilled as Ahsoka.

Tru, I meant in general.

SunRazer
When I say "Baras isn't that good", I mean relative to the greats like Vader. He's nothing. There's no way he's contending with Vader like Ahsoka.

|King Joker|
Originally posted by SunRazer
What's changed since the quote? Here, I'll link you to the most recent debate in which the whole "Maul > Ahsoka" notion based on that quote has been thoroughly countered (IMO): http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=635594&pagenumber=2

The gist is that the quote doesn't really suggest that Maul is actually overall superior to Ahsoka, rather that Maul was more opt at handling the Inquisitors because of a multitude of factors and circumstances.

SunRazer
That only calls the quote into question. It doesn't outright disprove the idea that Maul could still be just better than Ahsoka. A lot of the factors there are unknown, such as whether or not the place was a DS nexus.

Also, not too sure how I take Filoni's quote, given that the idea that Ben Kenobi can't match her blow-for-blow, or Maul, is frankly retarded. Also not sure why the Emperor's cited when Yoda isn't. Unless it's referring only to Imperial duelists?

carthage
Ben will kill Maul in the Season 3 finale

|King Joker|
Originally posted by SunRazer
That only calls the quote into question. It doesn't outright disprove the idea that Maul could still be just better than Ahsoka. The quote is the sole argument that's been put forth for Rebels Maul being better than Ahsoka.

Originally posted by SunRazer
A lot of the factors there are unknown, such as whether or not the place was a DS nexus. Claim ambiguity all you want, but honestly, everything points to Malachor being a dark side nexus, from creator statements to just pure logic.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Also, not too sure how I take Filoni's quote, given that the idea that Ben Kenobi can't match her blow-for-blow, or Maul, is frankly retarded. Also not sure why the Emperor's cited when Yoda isn't. Unless it's referring only to Imperial duelists? I doubt Filoni would be counting light siders in that quote, in all likelihood he was referring to any potential antagonists to Ahsoka in the era (Palpatine, Vader, Maul, Inquisitors). Plus, if you factor in the high likelihood of Malachor being a nexus, maybe it's not so retarded that Maul can't fight evenly with Ahsoka on neutral ground. I don't think the quote means that Maul would necessarily be incapable of holding his own on neutral ground, but it lends credence to the idea that he's ultimately inferior to Ahsoka.

SunRazer

|King Joker|
The quote is touted as some definitive confirmation of Maul being Ahsoka's superior because he was the 'strongest' of the group, but if you apply the context that they were fighting a specific enemy in which Maul would've logically been specialized to fight against (relative to Ahsoka) it definitely isn't anything spectacular and doesn't prove Maul is better than Ahsoka.

*shrug*

Seems unlikely, given he used the words "time period" which to me is meaning the 'era'.

SunRazer
Do you have the full quote on hand?

Nephthys
Originally posted by SunRazer
The Wrath doesn't have any feats above stalemating Ahsoka.

They didn't "stalemate", the fight just ended after a bit. If the same thing had happened earlier then the 5th Brother could have been said to be stalemating her.

Nexus, anyway.

SunRazer
You know what I mean - a draw for however long they were fighting - a minute?

Besides, if Maul really is stronger, then a stalemate would be generous for Ahsoka. But that's what we're disputing, anyway.

DarthDuelist9
I still have to respond to Joker/Beni on that topic which will cover a lot of points. To make things short, Pablo Hidalgo already confirmed that Malachor amping Maul, Vader,... was only a possibility so it's obvious that they didn't take the nexus into account when writing the fight scenes for that episode since he would have been able to give a definite answer.

Secondly, Filoni's quote refers to "a time period" which of course is a period of time and not necessarily an era. He's talking about season 2 and why they couldn't Ahsoka very much so why would he generalize a statement if he's only looking at a very specific part of that same statement (= season 2)? Not to mention how in that "era" Ahsoka obviously advanced significally so there's obviously going to be a difference between early era/post Order 66 Ahsoka and the one we see in Rebels yet he's completely neglecting that in his interview?

Third, Joker's idea that Maul was just better equipped fighting the Inquisitors and that's why he was paired with the weakest Jedi (Ezra) in general seems pretty reaching since the quote never mentions or implies as much. Anyway, Joker listed 2 factors (besides the DS Nexus which I already addressed), fighting style and mental state, which would've also explained Maul's superior performance against the Inquisitors. Now we see her fighting Inquisitors in Future of the Force and when going into Twilight of the Apprentice her mental state nor her fighting style change yet her performance does, so it's would be extremely reaching to suggest all of a sudden that those two factors would be important in this fight.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9


Secondly, Filoni's quote refers to "a time period" which of course is a period of time and not necessarily an era. He's talking about season 2 and why they couldn't Ahsoka very much so why would he generalize a statement if he's only looking at a very specific part of that same statement (= season 2)? Not to mention how in that "era" Ahsoka obviously advanced significally so there's obviously going to be a difference between early era/post Order 66 Ahsoka and the one we see in Rebels yet he's completely neglecting that in his interview?





Yeah and Maul was trapped on Malachor throughout that time. And right at the end of the season, she did fight him, and he did match her blow for blow.

And again, Filoni's commentary is fine on particular episodes, but I'm not sure he gets final say on the top most powerful Jedi/Sith in an entire era. Especially when concerning a character we know he's biased towards.


Originally posted by |King Joker|


Claim ambiguity all you want, but honestly, everything points to Malachor being a dark side nexus, from creator statements to just pure logic.




Nope. Not confirmed at all, and it might be "logical" to KMC'ers, but apparently isn't so obvious to the creators of Rebels:

1)Pablo Hidalgo himself couldn't answer if Malachor amped Darksiders in combat.

2)The fight between Vader and Ahsoka happened just as Filoni always imagined it. I doubt he always imagined it with Vader getting a dark side amp.

3) If it's such a boost to darksiders, how was Kanan able to get such a massive oneness amp that he could best a dark side amped Maul?


So chances are those fights would have happened pretty much the same way off Malachor. If it is confirmed later to be a place where Dark Siders are stronger, then other explanations will likely come into place to even the odds, e.g. Maul was out of combat practice as he'd been stuck on Malachor for a while, to ensure the fight would stay similar on neutral ground.

Beniboybling
A TV season is not a time period, the Emperor was not in Season 2 and he did not say "a" he said "the", that he's referring to the OT era is painfully obvious. facepalm



Anyway Maul wins.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Beniboybling
A TV season is not a time period, the Emperor was not in Season 2 and he did not say "a" he said "the", that he's referring to the OT era is painfully obvious. facepalm




But the Emperor wasn't trapped away somewhere either.

So fact is he could have shown up anytime during that season. Anything out of that season is out of the context he was giving.

And again, Maul did fight Ahsoka, and he did match her blow for blow. So taking Filoni's words so literally doesn't work. And that's if you honestly think it wise to take his words so literally on 2 characters, one whom he's admittedly biased to, and the other who he'll embarrass by having Blind Kanan beat him without a second thought erm

Beniboybling
So? It would still be bizarre and nonsensical to bring the Emperor into Seasons 2* to fight Ahsoka, and they never planned to do so, why should that be any less a parameter in your contrived reading when these parameters are indeed, entirely made up?

*by the way you may not of noticed, but Maul was actually in that season!

Originally posted by Darth Thor
And again, Maul did fight Ahsoka, and he did match her blow for blow. So taking Filoni's words so literally doesn't work. And that's if you honestly think it wise to take his words so literally on 2 characters, one whom he's admittedly biased to, and the other who he'll embarrass by having Blind Kanan beat him without a second thought erm And this is cute, considering within the same page you've invoked Filoni's authority on the Ahsoka vs Vader, and elsewhere have done the same regarding Grievous vs Ventress. Double standards much?

DarthDuelist9
Originally posted by Beniboybling
A TV season is not a time period, the Emperor was not in Season 2 and he did not say "a" he said "the", that he's referring to the OT era is painfully obvious. facepalm



Anyway Maul wins.

Yes it is, it's a period of time and the Emperor was still available since he wasn't trapped on some planet so he could've appeared.

BTW you think that Order 66 Ahsoka would've matched Maul or even the freaking GI?

Beniboybling
And you still haven't pointed out where Filoni describes availability to fight as the only parameter, if even a parameter at all.

Not sure what Order 66 Ahsoka has to do with anything.

DarthDuelist9
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And you still haven't pointed out where Filoni describes availability to fight as the only parameter, if even a parameter at all.

Not sure what Order 66 Ahsoka has to do with anything.

He was talking why they couldn't let Ahsoka appaer that much because only a limited group of characters could match her and thus be an antagonist in those episodes. So availability is obviously going to be a parameter, not everything has to be spelled out.

Well according to you he was referring to the entire OT time period so Order 66 Ahsoka is part of that time period and obviously inferior to her Rebels incarnation yet she would also fall under the same quote.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
He was talking why they couldn't let Ahsoka appaer that much because only a limited group of characters could match her and thus be an antagonist in those episodes. So availability is obviously going to be a parameter, not everything has to be spelled out.

Well according to you he was referring to the entire OT time period so Order 66 Ahsoka is part of that time period and obviously inferior to her Rebels incarnation yet she would also fall under the same quote. And by that same logic the Emperor would be excluded as well, because it would be unreasonable to bring him into the show at that point, or any point for that matter.

Why? The fact that he's talking about Ahsoka in her prime is obvious. He's talking about the era in which Rebels takes place.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Beniboybling
So? It would still be bizarre and nonsensical to bring the Emperor into Seasons 2* to fight Ahsoka, and they never planned to do so, why should that be any less a parameter in your contrived reading when these parameters are indeed, entirely made up?

*by the way you may not of noticed, but Maul was actually in that season!


Look his context was about who could fight Ashoka, and there was no one (aside from Vader and Sidious) hence why she wasn't used much.

*I kind of did notice hence why I brought up that Maul actually did match her blade for blade. Hence there's clearly some context you're missing from Filoni's words.





Originally posted by Beniboybling


And this is cute, considering within the same page you've invoked Filoni's authority on the Ahsoka vs Vader, and elsewhere have done the same regarding Grievous vs Ventress. Double standards much?


You see you can't even quote me in context, and I'm here to answer back. So what guarantee is there you're interpreting Filoni's words 100% correct?

I brought up those commentaries simply to point out Filoni doesn't take Dark Side nexus's into account.

I've also made it explicitly clear that taking his commentary on specific episodes is fine, but taking him as an authority on the most powerful Jedi/Sith of that era and on the position of a character he's admittedly biased towards is kind of pushing his authority level.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Look his context was about who could fight Ashoka, and there was no one (aside from Vader and Sidious) hence why she wasn't used much.

*I kind of did notice hence why I brought up that Maul actually did match her blade for blade. Hence there's clearly some context you're missing from Filoni's words.OK, but try responding to my point maybe?

So an arbitrary distinction then, how convenient. But anyway we've discussed this already, he referring not just his opinion, but the opinion and direction of the Rebels team as a whole.

And you realise the guy is the Executive Producer, right?

DarthDuelist9
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And by that same logic the Emperor would be excluded as well, because it would be unreasonable to bring him into the show at that point, or any point for that matter.

Why? The fact that he's talking about Ahsoka in her prime is obvious. He's talking about the era in which Rebels takes place.

Doesn't matter, he's still theoretically available, if they would use him that's another question which frankly has little to do with my previous comment.

Oh so now he's talking about Ahsoka during her Rebels prime and not the entire OT, Double standards Beni? Anyways, the point still stands that there is no reason for Filoni to make a comment of the entire era if he's only looking at characters that could make an appaerance in season 2 to serve as an antagonist for Ahsoka.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Beniboybling
OK, but try responding to my point maybe?


What, you mean about less chance of the Emperor showing up than Maul? Yeah fair enough. Except I still don't think that's what he means. He was talking about why Ahsoka wasn't showing up much in Season 2. Now you really think he meant Maul isn't a good enough foe for Ahsoka?

And again... When Maul does show up, he does match Ahsoka blow for blow, so taking his words literally makes no sense.

He was just pointing out there's not much competition for Ahsoka in this time period. He only wants Ahsoka being challenged by the top tiers.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So an arbitrary distinction then, how convenient.

??

Originally posted by Beniboybling
But anyway we've discussed this already, he referring not just his opinion, but the opinion and direction of the Rebels team as a whole.

Yeah so he claims. I mean you realise that whole team works for him right?


Originally posted by Beniboybling
And you realise the guy is the Executive Producer, right?


And that gives him authority over the entire time period?

The good thing about Lucas being gone now, is that there is no one person who has absolute say and authority on everything.

Unless you believe ROTJ Luke is basically useless and would get his butt kicked by any Council Member?

Darth Thor
Also I'm not even sure what difference the time period would make if he honestly meant Maul's no match for her, and only Vader or Palpatine could fight/best her.

I mean if she was that powerful surely it would hold true for almost any time period. We're yet to see any other villain greater than Rebels Maul in another time period save perhaps Snoke (whose actually alive in this time period so Ahsoka > Snoke confirmed). Even Dooku's not much ahead of Maul tbh.

So why even bring up the time period?

Because he was obviously talking in the context of S2 Rebels. And how the available villains (the Inquisitors) are simply no match for her. Hence why they couldn't have her showing up and fighting every other episode.

But again, it really wouldn't surprise me if he personally rated Ahsoka above Maul, cause you know he's slightly biased.

Nephthys
Does this even matter? People are acting as if the Wrath couldn't stand up to Ahsoka on a nexus, which is pretty damn loltastic.

DarthDuelist9
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Also I'm not even sure what difference the time period would make if he honestly meant Maul's no match for her, and only Vader or Palpatine could fight/best her.

I mean if she was that powerful surely it would hold true for almost any time period. We're yet to see any other villain greater than Rebels Maul in another time period save perhaps Snoke (whose actually alive in this time period so Ahsoka > Snoke confirmed). Even Dooku's not much ahead of Maul tbh.

So why even bring up the time period?

Because he was obviously talking in the context of S2 Rebels. And how the available villains (the Inquisitors) are simply no match for her. Hence why they couldn't have her showing up and fighting every other episode.

But again, it really wouldn't surprise me if he personally rated Ahsoka above Maul, cause you know he's slightly biased.

He tried to get Maul killed in season 5 of TCW but GL stopped him and he originally was going to kill him in Twilight of the Apprentice yet decided against it since he only appaered in two episodes. Perhaps now Ahsoka is out of the picture he will promote Maul big grin

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Darth Thor
What, you mean about less chance of the Emperor showing up than Maul? Yeah fair enough. Except I still don't think that's what he means. He was talking about why Ahsoka wasn't showing up much in Season 2. Now you really think he meant Maul isn't a good enough foe for Ahsoka?

And again... When Maul does show up, he does match Ahsoka blow for blow, so taking his words literally makes no sense.

He was just pointing out there's not much competition for Ahsoka in this time period. He only wants Ahsoka being challenged by the top tiers.Potentially.

If Filoni is an authority on a particular episode, why he wouldn't be over a breadth of episodes makes little sense yeah.

Bingo!

No I don't.

Flioni never had authority over RotJ.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Perhaps now Ahsoka is out of the picture he will promote Maul big grin Oh the wishful naive thinking. smile

DarthDuelist9
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Oh the wishful naive thinking. smile

Naah I actually put my hopes on the new executive producer of Rebels.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Beniboybling

If Filoni is an authority on a particular episode, why he wouldn't be over a breadth of episodes makes little sense yeah.


He does, but Canon comes down to more than just him. There's novels, games and comics from that time period. He can't just give final say on power levels. Not that I'm aware of anyway.

And end of the day, he says all that, yet Maul and Ahsoka do fight in his series, and they still don't show us Ahsoka to be his clear superior.



Originally posted by Beniboybling


Flioni never had authority over RotJ.


Bingo!

He doesn't just have final say on power levels in the OT period. He's not Lucas. Without a Lucas we go by showings and canon source books. Episode/Film commentary to an extent as well, but no one person just has control over an entire time period and everyone's power levels, as far as I'm aware.

Now if it's not a vague statement but a clear cut statement in and out of Universe with confirmation from several people e.g. Vader > Maul then that'd be different.

Solar Power
Just wondering, but does the majority of the forum subscribe to the assertion that Maul didn't degrade from SoD to Rebels? Because if we were operating under the assumption that Maul retained his skills ever since the beginning of his training to TCW to Rebels, then I think Maul takes the saber only contest.

Btw, that Maul vs Ahsoka stuff looks like something I don't want to touch with a 10 ft pole tbh. smile

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Solar Power
Just wondering, but does the majority of the forum subscribe to the assertion that Maul didn't degrade from SoD to Rebels? Because if we were operating under the assumption that Maul retained his skills ever since the beginning of his training to TCW to Rebels, then I think Maul takes the saber only contest.



Not seen enough of him to say for sure. But given he regained his skill back fairly quickly in TCW, he should be able to do the same in Rebels. However he might have been out of touch on Malachor as we don't know how long he was stranded there doing nothing.

Zenwolf
He has to at some point stagnate...every character does as they get older. Yoda did, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon etc

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Zenwolf
He has to at some point stagnate...every character does as they get older. Yoda did, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon etc


Didn't to Windu, Dooku or Palpatine though. In most cases the elite get more powerful with age.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Didn't to Windu, Dooku or Palpatine though. In most cases the elite get more powerful with age.

Yet Yoda declined and he was more powerful than the former 2. But I'm talking about from a physical standpoint.

|King Joker|

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yet Yoda declined and he was more powerful than the former 2. But I'm talking about from a physical standpoint.


It's unclear when Yoda finally declined though. Force Mastery over time seems to compensate for physical degradation over time.

Darth Thor
@ Joker's quote: Reading that again it does seem like he's strongly implying Maul can't match Ahsoka.

But Lol @ "they all felt". Given there's no previous benchmark for how powerful she must be and they were just making that up for this series.

In any case without seeing that in action or without confirmation from Canon sources (or at least the Story Group), his statement isn't canon.

|King Joker|
Ahsoka's better than Maul, get over it, lmao.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by |King Joker|
Ahsoka's better than Maul, get over it, lmao.



All hail Filoni

Petrus
Ahsoka being better than Maul is simply logical, tbh. Do you truly believe Maul would've given Vader the same trouble Ahsoka gave him during their fight at Malachor? It's clear that the gap between Ahsoka and Vader, although existent and noticeable, isn't as big as many previously thought. Ahsoka being close enough to Vader to actually give him a hard time is more than Maul has to his name, and assuming or believing Maul = or > Vader is frankly ridiculous. Maul stating his inferiority to Vader speaks for itself, and for those that say he was attempting to deceive or manipulate the Jedi, your argument would make some sense if everything we've seen from Maul so far didn't point to him being the inferior combatant. But that's certainly not the case.

ILS
Originally posted by Petrus
Ahsoka being better than Maul is simply logical, tbh. Do you truly believe Maul would've given Vader the same trouble Ahsoka gave him during their fight at Malachor? It's clear that the gap between Ahsoka and Vader, although existent and noticeable, isn't as big as many previously thought. Ahsoka being close enough to Vader to actually give him a hard time is more than Maul has to his name, and assuming or believing Maul = or > Vader is frankly ridiculous. Maul stating his inferiority to Vader speaks for itself, and for those that say he was attempting to deceive or manipulate the Jedi, your argument would make some sense if everything we've seen from Maul so far didn't point to him being the inferior combatant. But that's certainly not the case. The issue I have with Maul conceding inferiority is 1. This is the same guy who willingly throws himself at the likes of Sidious and Mace Windu, and 2. When Maul was discussing how he needed help to defeat Vader, it wasn't strictly in a personal combat sense. Maul was at Malachor to unlock a superweapon, presumably to use for his own agenda. Vader has the entire empire's resources at his back, which includes a crew of Jedi hunting inquisitors who Maul had had several run-ins with. Him saying that he can't take Vader alone is more reasonable in terms of resources considering who Maul is as a character; massively self-confident, stepping into arrogant and pretty much fearless (aside from Sidious), I guess.

Regardless, two things seem pretty clear to me which make the discussion of character dialogue a little redundant, to me. 1. Ahsoka and Maul fought as relative equals, and have roughly equal showings against common opponents. Thematically they're two sides of the same coin; Force users who have abandoned/been abandoned by their respective orders. If they were meant to be anything other than relatively equal then it's been an incredibly well kept secret up to this point. 2. Regardless of what anyone says, it's plain as shit on your face that Vader is the top dog in Rebels, sans Sidious. Neither Ahsoka or Maul are going to be able to defeat him in a fair fight, as Vader already demonstrated with Ahsoka. The only point of contention now is how Maul would do against him. With Maul and Ahsoka being relative equals, it seems reasonable to me that Maul would put a respectable fight but ultimately lose.

Petrus
Originally posted by ILS
The issue I have with Maul conceding inferiority is 1. This is the same guy who willingly throws himself at the likes of Sidious and Mace Windu,

I understand where you're coming from, but Maul throwing himself at those two doesn't necessarily mean he believes he's without a doubt coming out on top, at least against Sidious. Maul obviously knows he's not more powerful than his former master, yet he still throws himself at him, as you put it. Arrogant or not, I doubt he believes he can take Sidious and win.



hmm Tbh, I would need to re-watch that part of the episode to analyze its context better, but it's a fair assumption.



I think we did not see enough of Maul and Ahsoka's duel to definitely acknowledge combative equity between the two, and I was operating under the assumption that Malachor was a DS nexus, although I'm not sure about that anymore.

Regarding their showings, it's debatable. Can you provide some examples?




I'm glad to see you are objective enough to accept that Vader is clearly depicted as the most powerful Force user in Rebels. thumb up

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Petrus
Ahsoka being better than Maul is simply logical, tbh. Do you truly believe Maul would've given Vader the same trouble Ahsoka gave him during their fight at Malachor? It's clear that the gap between Ahsoka and Vader, although existent and noticeable, isn't as big as many previously thought. Ahsoka being close enough to Vader to actually give him a hard time


Well it's unclear how hard a time Vader was having against Ahsoka. The only things clear were 1) She was putting up a fight and 2)He was the clear superior in that fight.

Plus with Filoni saying Ahsoka can put up a fight against Vader because she knows him so well, and the fact that Maul and Ahsoka did fight, all gives me little reason to believe Ahsoka > Maul.



Originally posted by Petrus
and assuming or believing Maul = or > Vader is frankly ridiculous.


Yeah but who is. Vader > Maul/Dooku/Kenobi/ Ahsoka.. All of them. It's just about who would put up a slightly better fight, which seems to be down to who kno s him better.

Petrus
Well, there's Quanchi, lol.

ILS
@Petrus

I can buy that Maul would neglect seeking Vader out for a straight up fight, and would rather undermine him somehow. As we know, Maul + 1 Mandalorian > Mace Windu and Aayla Secura, so yeno.

The nexus thing would certainly push my opinion of Ahsoka to a higher level. Problem is, I don't think canon has addressed nexuses yet. Until it does I wouldn't assume they work identically to how they do in Legends. As for showings; Maul was trouncing the three Inquisitors by himself, and Ahsoka has consistently trounced them. Unless you want to split hairs to the maximum, they seem pretty similar.

But yeah, we'll have to wait and see. My hopes aren't exactly high for Maul, but we'll see.

Unbowed
Originally posted by ILS
As we know, Maul + 1 Mandalorian > Mace Windu and Aayla Secura, so yeno.

Haha, that's actually true isn't it? Mace and Secure were knocked out and could have been killed. laughing

Two other nice little tidbits:
- Maul reacted faster than Mace and was able to dodge the rocket
- Mace and Secure were newcomers to the fight that was already ongoing between Maul/Kenobi and Dooku.

Yet they both chose to gang up on Maul instead of Dooku, despite Mace being very familiar with Dooku(they were sparring buddies and very close for decades) and knowing Obi-Wan had a less than stellar record against him.

Did Mace instinctively assume Maul was a bigger threat than the good Count?

ILS
Originally posted by Unbowed
Haha, that's actually true isn't it? Mace and Secure were knocked out and could have been killed. laughing

Two other nice little tidbits:
- Maul reacted faster than Mace and was able to dodge the rocket
- Mace and Secure were newcomers to the fight that was already ongoing between Maul/Kenobi and Dooku.

Yet they both chose to gang up on Maul instead of Dooku, despite Mace being very familiar with Dooku(they were sparring buddies and very close for decades) and knowing Obi-Wan had a less than stellar record against him.

Did Mace instinctively assume Maul was a bigger threat than the good Count? I like the way you think.

Unbowed
I get the feeling that Lucas would have never allowed Maul vs Vader to happen since he saw them as more or less equals. Not just in universe, but as symbols of the saga and potential $$$ makers. If they fought, the loser - obviously Maul, for continuity reasons - would be diminished.

Him bringing Maul back in a big way for TCW and later saving him when Filoni wanted him killed indicates to me that Lucas had a change of heart regarding Maul's character.

Of course Lucas is now gone and Filoni is a hack, so I fear for the worst.

ILS
The closest we ever got was Resurrection, wherein Maul was having the time of his life running rings around pre-ANH Vader but ended up losing anyway. But that was deemed non-canon by Leeland.

Unbowed
That's too bad since that was ironically the best possible depiction of the fight, consistent with the films and Lucas' vision.

Whoever wrote that really got the characters:

- Maul was the only other "pure" Sith in the saga other than Sidious, and a prodigy that was meant to be the culmination of the Banites. Vader was a Jedi who Sidious seduced because he couldn't resist turning the Jedi's prophecy against them.

- Maul dominating Vader in the fight is consistent with Lucas' statement about the PT duels being better because they had Jedi and Sith in their primes, not half-trained children and half-machine broken men(I'm paraphrasing).

- Vader ultimately "winning" out of sheer spite and self-loathing fits perfectly with the tragic persona Lucas created for him, not the superficial ultimate badass caricature that dominates everyone his fanboys want to believe in.

- I don't have to point how Maul's hubris getting the better of him despite him being the perfect fighter is consistent with the films lol

- at the end, we see the strain this plot Sidious cooked up puts on his and Vader's relationship. Vader was really getting tired of this shit.

All in all, it simply works. The fans of both characters can be content. Maul wins the fight but ultimately loses, which is the best he can hope for given the continuity. Vader ultimately remains top dog.

ILS
Originally posted by Unbowed
That's too bad since that was ironically the best possible depiction of the fight, consistent with the films and Lucas' vision.

Whoever wrote that really got the characters:

- Maul was the only other "pure" Sith in the saga other than Sidious, and a prodigy that was meant to be the culmination of the Banites. Vader was a Jedi who Sidious seduced because he couldn't resist turning the Jedi's prophecy against them.

- Maul dominating Vader in the fight is consistent with Lucas' statement about the PT duels being better because they had Jedi and Sith in their primes, not half-trained children and half-machine broken men(I'm paraphrasing).

- Vader ultimately "winning" out of sheer spite and self-loathing fits perfectly with the tragic persona Lucas created for him, not the superficial ultimate badass caricature that dominates everyone his fanboys want to believe in.

- I don't have to point how Maul's hubris getting the better of him despite him being the perfect fighter is consistent with the films lol

- at the end, we see the strain this plot Sidious cooked up puts on his and Vader's relationship. Vader was really getting tired of this shit.

All in all, it simply works. The fans of both characters can be content. Maul wins the fight but ultimately loses, which is the best he can hope for given the continuity. Vader ultimately remains top dog. Agreed. Maul's always been tricky because he was never a plot-reliant character, but he was also for all intents and purposes the most obsessively dedicated warrior we've seen. Finding situations where he should lose isn't exactly easy.

I preferred the arrogance being his achilles heel play much more than... whatever the hell Kanan beating him was. They're running out of ways to use him now.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Petrus
Well, there's Quanchi, lol.


Oh I totally understand how that would put you off Maul

|King Joker|
Originally posted by Darth Thor
All hail Filoni thumb up

DarthDuelist9
Originally posted by ILS
@Petrus

I can buy that Maul would neglect seeking Vader out for a straight up fight, and would rather undermine him somehow. As we know, Maul + 1 Mandalorian > Mace Windu and Aayla Secura, so yeno.

The nexus thing would certainly push my opinion of Ahsoka to a higher level. Problem is, I don't think canon has addressed nexuses yet. Until it does I wouldn't assume they work identically to how they do in Legends. As for showings; Maul was trouncing the three Inquisitors by himself, and Ahsoka has consistently trounced them. Unless you want to split hairs to the maximum, they seem pretty similar.

But yeah, we'll have to wait and see. My hopes aren't exactly high for Maul, but we'll see.

Hidalgo already said that the nexus amping Maul, Vader, ... Is only a possibility so it seems very unlikely that they took that into account when creating the fight scenes. Also dueling offscreen is hardly reliant in TotA otherwise you have to accept that Ahsoka couldn't get pased that Fifth Brother.

Petrus
Originally posted by ILS
@Petrus

I can buy that Maul would neglect seeking Vader out for a straight up fight, and would rather undermine him somehow. As we know, Maul + 1 Mandalorian > Mace Windu and Aayla Secura, so yeno.

I hate how sometimes SW is maddeningly inconsistent. Based on his hype, accolades and his showing against Sidious, Windu + Secura should be solidly above Maul + 1 Mandalorian. Do you believe TCW/Rebels Maul > peak Windu?



Based on recent comments by Hidalgo, I'm not sure anymore the nexus exists and if it does, if it was even taken into account went writing the script of the fights in that last chapter. I believe it's logical for Malachor to be a DS nexus, and we do see the Inqs flying around with their lightsabers , but it's still not a certainty as of this moment. However, I still hold that Ahsoka is slightly superior to Maul even without the nexus. Keyword: slightly. I'm basing this opinion on Ahsoka's fight vs. Vader along with Filoni's comments, btw.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Petrus
I hate how sometimes SW is maddeningly inconsistent. Based on his hype, accolades and his showing against Sidious, Windu + Secura should be solidly above Maul + 1 Mandalorian. Do you believe TCW/Rebels Maul > peak Windu?What's maddening is the logic here. Windu and Secura were distracted by Maul and then hit with a rocket launcher, temporarily KO'ing them.

That doesn't mean Maul + 1 (2 actually but who cares) Mandalorians will defeat Windu and Secura consistently in a straight up fight. Or that Maul + growth comparable to, what the strength and fighting capabilities of one to two Mandalorians and/or a rocket launcher strapped to his back??, would > Windu and Secura in a fight.

It means the aforementioned Jedi can be KO'ed by a missile impact, nothing more lmfao.

ILS
All I meant by that is it makes sense if Maul would use an underhanded tactic like a Mandalorian missile to bridge the gap against Vader. Maybe an ion cannon or some shit.

Beniboybling
Or the Death Star yeah.

Petrus
Originally posted by Beniboybling
What's maddening is the logic here. Windu and Secura were distracted by Maul and then hit with a rocket launcher, temporarily KO'ing them.

That doesn't mean Maul + 1 (2 actually but who cares) Mandalorians will defeat Windu and Secura consistently in a straight up fight. Or that Maul + growth comparable to, what the strength and fighting capabilities of one to two Mandalorians and/or a rocket launcher strapped to his back??, would > Windu and Secura in a fight.

It means the aforementioned Jedi can be KO'ed by a missile impact, nothing more lmfao.

Well, that's a relief. smile

Darth Thor
ILS has a point. It didn't take much help for Maul to use a surprise attack to defeat Windu + Secura. I doubt there's a large gap between that combined duo and Vader.

On the other hand Maul did only emphasis that he can't defeat Vader alone..

Petrus
These surprise tactics can't usually be accounted for in duels though, at least it's not the norm in KMC .

Unbowed
The problem is that we still don't know enough to place Maul's statement in it's proper context.

How would Maul know he can't defeat Vader? Did they previously meet? The Inquisitors were on Malachor hunting "the shadow", and mentioned there were rumors that Maul still lived. Were they hunting him of their own initiative, or on the orders of Vader? Did Sidious order Vader to destroy Maul(he seemed unconcerned at the end of SOD) or did Vader just see him as a threat?

I agree with ILS' assessment that it's unlikely that Maul was talking simply about a lightsaber duel between him and Vader, but rather about their conflict in the larger sense, about his revenge.

" - You know about the Inquisitor?
- He is my enemy. All Inquisitors and their masters are my enemies."

Even if Maul think Vader is stronger, he isn't above ganging up on him or laying a trap. He did manage to capture both Grievous and Dooku, after all. But in this case he can't. Vader is the #2 man in the Empire. He has the unlimited resources of the empire on his side and a whole cadre of Force users doing his bidding. And he is very strong himself.

Maul has no allies, no resources, no military army. He knows that, if anything, Vader is the one who will gang up on him, that he's likely to show up with a battalion of stormtroopers and a few Inquisitors at his back if he catches Maul's scent.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Petrus
Well, there's Quanchi, lol. Maul is superior to Vader based off their mobility, skills, feats, etc. and the fact he was in a much more formidable era than the Ot. Kenobi was in his prime in the prequels not that shitty run down version Vader still didn't best until Kenobi allowed it.

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