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Just recalling a point made from an old discussion.

TCW S6 seems to suggest that Dooku had taken the name "Tyranus" by the end of TPM, and possibly before, although it's never said to be "Darth Tyranus" specifically.

Since Maul was still Sidious' apprentice by then, and Canon doesn't have Sidious foreseeing Maul's demise like in Legends, what does this mean? Did Sidious train Dooku as some sort of reserve, or did he christen him as a Sith Lord even before Maul's tenure as his apprentice had expired?

For the record, TCW S6 is technically Legends as well, and Palpatine discloses in Legends that he foresaw Maul's demise (although that's kind of retconned). If you think Legends also deserves an explanation, go ahead and provide one. I'm mostly interested in Canon, though.

He probably trained Dooku as an acolyte knowing that while he was more powerful then Maul by that point in time Maul still had far greater potential ( with the lower half of his body still intact ) and would surpass Dooku in due time.

I'm not sure missing the lower half of his body really mattered tbh, considering he isn't far off from Dooku in canon during SoD, and canon has Vader with his "more powerful than he ever was as a Jedi" quote during LOTS and he tears shit up in the Marvel comics, and he is more man than machine.

He probably realized that Dooku would serve far better as head of the CIS than Maul. Maul may have made a good warlord, but he was never presented as a charismatic leader like Dooku is who was capable of swaying entire Star Systems to his cause merely through speeches.

Furthermore, the CIS leader being an ex-Jedi would help stir up anti-Jedi sentiment throughout the Republic.

Originally posted by Trocity
I'm not sure missing the lower half of his body really mattered tbh

It does. Midichlorians determine potential and they're contained in cells which are contained within body mass.

Vader being more powerful then Anakin is simply because he learned how to harness his rage. If he'd known how to do that with his potential he would have been even greater.

Originally posted by ares834
He probably realized that Dooku would serve far better as head of the CIS than Maul. Maul may have made a good warlord, but he was never presented as a charismatic leader like Dooku is who was capable of swaying entire Star Systems to his cause merely through speeches.

Furthermore, the CIS leader being an ex-Jedi would help stir up anti-Jedi sentiment throughout the Republic.

This too.

Dooku may have been an associate of Palpatine's for political reasons, but not his apprentice?

Yeh.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Dooku may have been an associate of Palpatine's for political reasons, but not his apprentice?

I, mean, I guess it's possible. But considering he is running around calling himself "Tyranus" I've got my doubts that he wasn't a Sith at the time.

Nah, "Tyranus" is a typical name for a politican.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
It does. Midichlorians determine potential and they're contained in cells which are contained within body mass.

Vader being more powerful then Anakin is simply because he learned how to harness his rage. If he'd known how to do that with his potential he would have been even greater. No. Doesn't work like that.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Dooku may have been an associate of Palpatine's for political reasons, but not his apprentice?

Would he adopt the name "Tyranus" just for that? Sounds... unlikely.

I also question if he would do things such as murder his old friend Sifo-Dyas unless he had committed to the Sith.

Originally posted by ares834
He probably realized that Dooku would serve far better as head of the CIS than Maul. Maul may have made a good warlord, but he was never presented as a charismatic leader like Dooku is who was capable of swaying entire Star Systems to his cause merely through speeches.

Furthermore, the CIS leader being an ex-Jedi would help stir up anti-Jedi sentiment throughout the Republic.

Sounds like you're suggesting that Sidious was training Dooku to replace Maul as his apprentice?

I mean, the main thing I'm looking for here is a reason for Dooku to adopt the name "Tyranus" so early on.

My thoughts are the same as they were before. Maul had the Darth title as well as the title of apprentice during TPM, Tyranus is only known to possess the Sith moniker, and it's only post-TPM that people start referring to him as Darth Tyranus (like the Kaminoans), and its only post-TPM that Sidious states that Maul has been replaced.

Ultimately Dooku was an incredibly powerful Force user with anti-Jedi sentiments and immense political influence, it would be entirely remiss for Palpatine to not exploit such an opportunity simply because he already had an Sith apprentice in Maul. The practical move would be to enlist him into the Sith as indeed an agent, without making in a proper Sith Lord, while simply giving him a Sith moniker to both represent his allegiance and to masquerade under. This is not unheard of at least in Legends, think Bane & Venamis.

Then when you consider on top of that that at least in regards to Canon, Maul is the far younger and with the potential to be more powerful, and Dooku doesn't make sense as anything other than a short term investment, not a replacement for his carefully selected and trained Sith disciple.

Canon has also put a lid on the debate as to whether Sidious really adhered to the Rule of Two or not, he did:

http://i.imgur.com/wRpLw3i.jpg

So under those circumstances having two apprentices at once is a no no. But ultimately Sheev remains ever the opportunist.

A well-explained thesis. But when do the Kaminoans refer to him as Darth Tyranus? Jango calls him "Darth Tyranus" in the AotC script, but in the film itself, it was just "Tyranus".

Also, I'm told that somewhere in Canon, Dooku got the title "Darth Tyranus" immediately upon meeting with Sidious?

Ah, Kaminoans in TCW call him "Lord Tyranus". I assume that's what you mean (I was previously assuming you meant AotC, for some reason).

I did find this on the SW website:



I also found these:







So Tyranus was already a Darth at this point, but he wasn't actually recruited until after Maul's loss. In other words, the Oba Diah/Sifo-Dyas business was after TPM, just in the same year.

Come to think of it, what was the evidence that Dooku approached Sidious/adopted the name of Tyranus before the end of TPM, anyway?

EDIT: Just saw your second response, however according to Pablo those blogs are not Canon. And the dating is indisputable given that these events happened under Valorum, not Palpatine, who is replaced during the Naboo Crisis.

Originally posted by SunRazer
A well-explained thesis. But when do the Kaminoans refer to him as Darth Tyranus? Jango calls him "Darth Tyranus" in the AotC script, but in the film itself, it was just "Tyranus".

Also, I'm told that somewhere in Canon, Dooku got the title "Darth Tyranus" immediately upon meeting with Sidious? In TCW, specifically they call him "Lord" Tyranus:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3_xAF-WEcs&t=1m51s

Also note how the Neimodians refer to Sidious as "Lord Sidious" and I believe Sidious introduces his apprentice as "Darth" Maul. I guess Fett is an exception here, which introduces the idea that it could be a matter of preference, or maybe he kept secret his allegiances.

And I looked at the Databank and it says that "Dooku voluntarily left the light side behind and became Darth Sidious' dark side disciple, taking the secret name Darth Tyranus and leading the Separatist army." Which yeah strongly suggests that, but as a generalised statement I feel there is some wiggle room here.

Interesting something from The Lost One biography gallery about something I'd forgotten, namely that in the episode there is mention of Sifo-Dyas being accompanied by a second Jedi before his death. But the identity of this Jedi is never revealed and instead suspiciously ambigious:

http://i.imgur.com/XGL6vEM.pngp

http://i.imgur.com/lfslnSR.png

I can't think of what this detail could have been there for other than to indicate the presence of Dooku, who may have not left yet the Order. mmm

Originally posted by Beniboybling
In TCW, specifically they call him "Lord" Tyranus:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3_xAF-WEcs&t=1m51s

He doesn't have a reason to call himself "Darth" in front of them.



Sidious is likely the better comparison here. Also, in the films, "Lord" and "Darth" are used interchangeably. Vader is often referred to as Lord rather than Darth.



There's no wriggle room. The sources I posted above confirm him as Darth Tyranus.



That seems to align with my first quote about Dooku being inducted into the Sith Order only after Maul's death.

The only other explanation I could've offered was that Dooku temporarily played the role of double agent. He would've been christened as Darth Tyranus but stayed in the Order briefly for that one final mission.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
EDIT: Just saw your second response, however according to Pablo those blogs are not Canon. And the dating is indisputable given that these events happened under Valorum, not Palpatine, who is replaced during the Naboo Crisis.

Fair enough on the dating.

As for canonicity, I figured that, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate everything in them. I assume they'd be written using canonical information, no less. Just that judgments in there are non-canon.

If you want canon quotes, there's this:



Which means that Dooku was definitely a Sith by the time of the Oba Diah operation. So we're back to square one.

Well yeah but we are dealing with a sensitive topic here, of which the details are ambiguous, a layman, or even an informed SW enthusiast, could easily have overlooked the revelations in this episode.

And I saw that, but again Sith =/= Sith Lord. Venamis is a Sith name as well, so is Bane. It represents their (and his) affiliation with the Sith. I mean, its not just a nickname, clearly.

There is also context to consider as well, by the point of this discovery, Tyranus was Dooku's Sith name in every sense of the word.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well yeah but we are dealing with a sensitive topic here, of which the details are ambiguous, a layman, or even an informed SW enthusiast, could easily have overlooked the revelations in this episode.

Perhaps.



Tenebrous was training Venamis to kill and replace Plagueis, and Bane was a Lord by the time he created the Rule of Two.

My question was mostly about why Dooku had the name Tyranus already, but also what the implications of that were. Sidious inducting Dooku as a Sith is a violation of the Rule of Two, just as Tenebrous training Venamis was. If you're comparing Tyranus to Venamis, that would mean that you think Sidious wanted Dooku to replace Maul, which doesn't make much sense as far as potential goes.

Although, as Ares said, Sidious may have wanted Dooku to replace Maul anyway because of his charismatic ability. Personally, I find that that theory only operates under the assumption that Sheev was already aware of Anakin and had set his sights on him, so he realized that Maul was ultimately expendable (which is stated on the SW website as well). Dooku was also expendable, of course, but at least he would've been able to initiate the Clone Wars and serve as the public face of the Sith. And since Sidious was planning for Anakin all along, it really wouldn't matter what Maul's potential was since he'd never be able to attain it before Anakin grew old enough to be indoctrinated into the Sith Order, at which point he'd just be a better version of Maul.

In other words, it's possible that Sidious found them both expendable by this point but considered Dooku more useful to his plans until he could get Anakin to become his apprentice - hence he began cultivating Dooku for apprenticeship over Maul.

That's for Canon. In Legends, he foresaw Maul's demise on Naboo according to Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, which means that he probably trained Dooku to become Maul's inevitable replacement as the Sith apprentice.



I'm pretty sure the quote means that Tyranus was a Sith name from the get go, not just an alias adopted by the Count which ended up becoming a Sith name.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Tenebrous was training Venamis to kill and replace Plagueis, and Bane was a Lord by the time he created the Rule of Two.Bane adopted his Sith name upon joining the Brotherhood, I'm pretty sure. But the point is that you can have a Sith name without being a Darth or an apprentice. That's really the main thrust of this argument.

Well my argument is the same, he was a Sith agent, but not a Sith Lord. Sidious was being opportunistic and Dooku needed a secret (Sithy) identity to masquerade under.

Somewhat beggars belief that Sidious would have found Anakin before the Jedi did though, i.e. before TPM, if that was the case, surely he would have spirited him away immediately.

Well in Legends several sources, most explicitly Darth Plagueis, make clear that Sidious inducted Dooku after Maul's death.

------------

Also...
Originally posted by SunRazer
He doesn't have a reason to call himself "Darth" in front of them.

Sidious is likely the better comparison here. Also, in the films, "Lord" and "Darth" are used interchangeably. Vader is often referred to as Lord rather than Darth.Yeah that's my point, the use of Lord indicates his Darth status.

A potential explanation, though it seems to me that cutting ties with the Jedi entirely might be necessary to be a proper Dark Lord.

But the point is that it suggests that instead of being a fully fledged Sith, Dooku remained very much between worlds.

------------

Also, another spanner to throw in the works here:

http://i.imgur.com/SuEtMK3.png

This is kind of kinda inaccurate though, as Dooku had already been recruited and at the very least had adopted the name Tyranus. However, if we simply omit that word, the quote functions with my reading, as he was not necessarily of the ranks of the Banite line.

I think it's pretty simple, in Legends or Canon.

1. Sidious didn't train a guy he stole from one of his most powerful allies (making a rival of her in the process) for 20 years as the second half of the Rule of Two, while lying to and hiding his development from Plagueis, who as he was killing mocked because Maul was now his apprentice... just so he could replaced by Dooku on a whim. Dooku who was about 70 by TPM, and would be surpassed before long. Doesn't make sense.

2. Everything in TPM happened concurrently, so there was no pre-planning for Sidious. A number of sources contradict The Essential Guide (which, along with the Book of Sith, seem to have a bias narrative against Maul), such as the Darth Plagueis novel, the Episode I Journal and others. Not to mention current canon.

3. Sidious certainly kept an eye on Dooku with thoughts of using him politically, and taking him on as an acolyte, but it's only when Maul is presumed dead that he actually takes him as a short-term apprentice.

4. Likewise, it's only around the time Maul is dead that Sidious realises what Anakin is and could become. He didn't "always know".

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Bane adopted his Sith name upon joining the Brotherhood, I'm pretty sure. But the point is that you can have a Sith name without being a Darth or an apprentice. That's really the main thrust of this argument.

The Brotherhood isn't a comparable system to the Rule of Two. The Brotherhood had no limits on who was a Sith.

Under Bane's Rule of Two, training any additional apprentice is a direct violation. There can't be more than two Sith. That's the dilemma here.



Even if he weren't a Sith Lord, it'd be a violation of the Rule of Two.



Plagueis tried that but failed.



I know. That's why I said the Essential Guide quote is kind of retconned, since Sidious clearly didn't foresee Maul's death in DP.



Ah.



Which is why he killed Sifo-Dyas in that same mission.



I don't know if Sidious would be willing to name someone a Sith outside of the Banite line.

Originally posted by ILS
I think it's pretty simple, in Legends or Canon.

1. Sidious didn't train a guy he stole from one of his most powerful allies (making a rival of her in the process) for 20 years as the second half of the Rule of Two, while lying to and hiding his development from Plagueis, who as he was killing mocked because Maul was now his apprentice... just so he could replaced by Dooku on a whim. Dooku who was about 70 by TPM, and would be surpassed before long. Doesn't make sense.

That depends on whether Sidious felt Maul had fulfilled his purpose and that he needed somebody else to engineer the next part of his Grand Plan. Certainly, Maul's potential eclipses Dooku's, but if Sidious intended to train Anakin all along, then the potential or either Maul or Dooku wouldn't have mattered to him.



In fairness, you can cite some of those newer sources as having a bias narrative against Dooku. And certainly BoS doesn't have anything in particular against Maul, since Sidious expresses the same contemptuous "no successor" policy with Tyranus and Vader also.

Unless you're referring to that saberstaff quote about it being suited for the barbarians among the Sith.

Current Canon does seem to move in favor of Maul as opposed to Dooku, but by the same token, the new Canon absolutely doesn't establish anything about Sidious and Anakin up to TPM, so it's entirely possible that Sidious had known of Anakin and wanted him slightly before TPM. We do know that the new Canon has Sidious training Dooku in the ways of the Sith and giving him Sith titles even before Maul "dies", though.



My point is that the Oba Diah arc contradicts this, since Dooku was most definitely a Sith and had the name "Tyranus" before/concurrently with early TPM.



That's true in the case of Legends. For Canon, we don't know.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The Brotherhood isn't a comparable system to the Rule of Two. The Brotherhood had no limits on who was a Sith.

Under Bane's Rule of Two, training any additional apprentice is a direct violation. There can't be more than two Sith. That's the dilemma here.

Even if he weren't a Sith Lord, it'd be a violation of the Rule of Two.Fair enough, I admit the rules are more strict. But even as a firm believer in the doctrine Sheev may have been willing to bend the rules at little.

I don't remember him trying anything of the sort. By the term he learned of Anakin, the Jedi already had him. On the other hand no, there is really nothing stopping Sidious nabbing Anakin on Tatooine, who is going to stop him, Watto?

True.

Well that appears to be the point of contention.

Originally posted by SunRazer
We do know that the new Canon has Sidious training Dooku in the ways of the Sith and giving him Sith titles even before Maul "dies", though.There is no evidence Sidious trained Dooku in anything lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That depends on whether Sidious felt Maul had fulfilled his purpose and that he needed somebody else to engineer the next part of his Grand Plan. Certainly, Maul's potential eclipses Dooku's, but if Sidious intended to train Anakin all along, then the potential or either Maul or Dooku wouldn't have mattered to him.



Sam Witwer addressed that theory (that Sidious always planned on Anakin) saying his take is that Palpatine would make the best he could out of Maul anyway in case Anakin didn't work out or whatever.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Would he adopt the name "Tyranus" just for that? Sounds... unlikely.

Just an alias, perhaps.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sounds like you're suggesting that Sidious was training Dooku to replace Maul as his apprentice?

I mean, the main thing I'm looking for here is a reason for Dooku to adopt the name "Tyranus" so early on.

Well, I certainly think he was Palpatine's apprentice by this point. Now whether he actually intended to replace Maul with Dooku I am unsure.

Don't you guys also find it suspicious that Sidious was showing 'great interest' in Anakin's career even as of TPM? After Maul died and even before making Dooku a proper Sith, he knew the Count was only going to be a temp and the plan even since then was to turn Anakin. So I seriously doubt his plan was to replace Maul with Dooku as an official apprentice.

Yeah, Palpatine mentions in the DP novel that Dooku is merely a placeholder, IIRC.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Sam Witwer addressed that theory (that Sidious always planned on Anakin) saying his take is that Palpatine would make the best he could out of Maul anyway in case Anakin didn't work out or whatever.
That makes sense.

Here is the thing, in canon Sidious is completely devoted to the Rule of Two. But what many don't understand is that the ROT isn't just a rule restricting the number of Sith. The corollary is that the Master is supposed to be dedicated to the Sith imperative even above his own wishes.

Many people forget this part, but it's made clear in ROTS that Sidious firmly believes it. "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us".

What that means is that Sidious isn't going to throw away the prodigy he spent 20 years molding to be his successor just because Anakin has a higher midichlorian count. That would be stupid and shortsighted and would make a mockery of their whole system. If anything, Anakin and Maul would have to duke it out for the title.

But even that isn't grasping the full implications. As I said, Maul was fully intended to be Sidious' successor, he's a Sith through and through. And Sidious knows that, and he is fully dedicated to the Sith cause, which is that the Order itself has to always get stronger, to be the best possible version of itself...

The Order, not Sidious.

What I'm getting at is this: Sidious would have been aware that, once Anakin entered the picture, the future of the Order might not involve him at all. That the question isn't whether Sidious disposes of Maul, but whether Maul disposes of Sidious. If Maul survived TPM it was a distinct possibility that he would grow in power and dispose of Sidious, then look to seduce and train Anakin himself.

Well, that's in canon anyway.

To be honest, Maul having to duke it out with Anakin during the movies would have been far cooler than Dooku.

Killing off Maul in TPM was always a mistake on Lucas's part.

Originally posted by ILS
To be honest, Maul having to duke it out with Anakin during the movies would have been far cooler than Dooku.
Back when the TFN forum was thriving there was a poster who was fanatical about the idea that Maul should have been the PT's Vader, haunting Anakin and Obi-Wan throughout the films until they finally defeated him in ROTS. No Dooku and no Grievous.

It always sounded pretty good to me.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Back when the TFN forum was thriving there was a poster who was fanatical about the idea that Maul should have been the PT's Vader, haunting Anakin and Obi-Wan throughout the films until they finally defeated him in ROTS. No Dooku and no Grievous.

It always sounded pretty good to me. There's the whole theme of the student surpassing the master, but I feel like they squandered it during the PT. Instead of simply using Sidious' first apprentice for that - and Maul was along with Vader one of the most striking villains in the movies - they brought in Dooku, Grievous, Ventress, Savage, etc, all these different characters who are kinda-sorta-not-really Sith, and give each of them elements of wanting to surpass their masters, but we all know none of them really had a chance. They were just used up and spat back out for quick arcs and didn't really give us anything compelling. Maul was the apprentice, who was supposedly meant to surpass Sidious one day, and Anakin was the Chosen One. Watching them both getting chewed up and spat out by the Dark Side, and Sidious not having the successor he wanted because Maul died and Anakin became Vader, would have been a fitting conclusion.

Dooku was cool, and his dynamic with Yoda is definitely interesting (along with his political influence and recruiting of Dark Jedi, Grievous and what not - an external resource for Sidious), but Maul-Anakin-Sidious would have been a much cooler arc, especially if Maul did go ahead and kill Qui-Gon - Obi-Wan's master, and the Jedi who rescued Anakin from a life of slavery. That creates tension and rivalry right from the offset.

I think that its the rule of two that really hamstrung the PT as far as strong villains go, had there not been that rule then Maul could have stayed alive to be the Vader of the PT and Dooku could still have been the head of the CIS, with Maul taking the place of Greivous in the CIS hierarchy; both working under Sidious of course.

Originally posted by relentless1
I think that its the rule of two that really hamstrung the PT as far as strong villains go, had there not been that rule then Maul could have stayed alive to be the Vader of the PT and Dooku could still have been the head of the CIS, with Maul taking the place of Greivous in the CIS hierarchy; both working under Sidious of course. Yeah. If it had been my choice, have Maul feature in any plot points relating to the Sith hierarchy, and have Dooku be a symbol of the Jedi's failings and dissent within the Order, the political repercussions and what not. Because what made Dooku so interesting is that he was one of the most renowned Jedi, but then became their worst nightmare; a corrupt, Dark Sided politician who is recruiting Jedi into the Sith under their noses, creating and uncovering monsters like Grievous and Durge, and rallying entire systems in favour of the CIS.

I mean, you've got his relationship with Yoda and Mace Windu to make use of, so there's no shortage of things that he could be doing there. I think they heavily overused Dooku and threw out Maul before using a fraction of his potential.

Originally posted by ILS
There's the whole theme of the student surpassing the master, but I feel like they squandered it during the PT. Instead of simply using Sidious' first apprentice for that - and Maul was along with Vader one of the most striking villains in the movies - they brought in Dooku, Grievous, Ventress, Savage, etc, all these different characters who are kinda-sorta-not-really Sith, and give each of them elements of wanting to surpass their masters, but we all know none of them really had a chance. They were just used up and spat back out for quick arcs and didn't really give us anything compelling. Maul was the apprentice, who was supposedly meant to surpass Sidious one day, and Anakin was the Chosen One. Watching them both getting chewed up and spat out by the Dark Side, and Sidious not having the successor he wanted because Maul died and Anakin became Vader, would have been a fitting conclusion.

Dooku was cool, and his dynamic with Yoda is definitely interesting (along with his political influence and recruiting of Dark Jedi, Grievous and what not - an external resource for Sidious), but Maul-Anakin-Sidious would have been a much cooler arc, especially if Maul did go ahead and kill Qui-Gon - Obi-Wan's master, and the Jedi who rescued Anakin from a life of slavery. That creates tension and rivalry right from the offset.
Exactly.

It would have worked even better with the OT, in that it would have shown that Sidious himself was the architect of his own eventual destruction, all because of his greed.

The fact of the matter was that Anakin's Chosen One-ness and high midichlorian count was completely superfluous to his victory over the Jedi, but Sidious just had to have him, had to rub it in the Jedi's face and turn their prophecy against them.

If he would have stuck with his original apprentice(this is on the premise that Maul survived Naboo) and nipped Anakin in the bud(i.e. killed him), he and Maul could have probably ruled happily ever after, or at least until the Force cooked up another way to screw them over.

But he was blinded by Anakin's potential, cooked up an extremely risky and convoluted way to turn him, and in the end it didn't matter one bit. All he had to show for his investment was a military figurehead for the Empire(which Maul would have excelled at anyway) and an extremely high medical bill for Anakin's convalescence and suit.


Ironically Maul had the right idea in TPM when he tried to run down Anakin with his bike.

Of course Dooku was a placeholder. That's fact in both Canon and Legends. My point is whether Sidious now regarded both Maul and Dooku placeholders for Anakin and thus was willing to have Dooku as his apprentice because the latter's charisma was going to operate the next stage of his plan. That seems to be unlikely, though.

In any case, that just raises the question of why Sidious was training Dooku as a Sith even when Maul was around, regardless of whether Dooku was a Lord or not.

To give Dooku a reason to serve him.

So he's going to violate the Rule of Two just for that? The case is especially strange for the people who think he was legitimately cultivating Maul as his successor. Why on earth would Sidious be training an alternate apprentice concurrently?

Given he believed he was the lines ultimate culmination ( or something along those lines at the end of the Plagueis nove IIRC ) I don't see why not. It's not like either Tenebrous, Plagueis or Sidious really cared about the lines established by Bane tbh. They flout it throughout the entire Plagueis novel.

Like I said I don't believe he was training Dooku. I believe he taught him those techniques as a way to tie Dooku to him and maybe even to mislead the Jedi.

Yeah, it seems the only explanation was that he wasn't really teaching Dooku as a legitimate apprentice and thus didn't view that as a violation of the RoT or something?

TCW-standard regard for continuity, as usual.

Yeh.

Originally posted by SunRazer
In any case, that just raises the question of why Sidious was training Dooku as a Sith even when Maul was around, regardless of whether Dooku was a Lord or not.
Who says he was training him?

I think Sidious started cultivating Dooku as a useful idiot and dangled Darth-dom and training in front of him to get him to do what he wanted, specifically place the order for the Clone Army using the Jedi's authority.

When Maul got killed Sidious figured he might as well go with the flow and took Dooku as his apprentice.

It says Sidious gave Dooku Sith status, which is a violation regardless of whether or not there was traditional Sith training.

I guess so. The whole Dooku/Sifo Dyas timeline has always been a jumbled mess, even before TCW

Maul also knew about the Clone Wars and was supposed to have a part to play, lord knows what that was.

Jumbled mess? At least it was clear that Dooku was only apprenticed after Maul's demise, not before.

I never really cared or paid much attention but IIRC ever since the movie(and the EU works that followed) came out there were inconsistencies on when exactly did Dooku leave, when was the order placed, when was Sifo Dyas killed, or whether it was Sifo Dyas that placed the order or Dooku assuming his identity.

Well, take note that a number of the quotes are character assumptions/perspectives, which would be limited. They wouldn't know everything. A number of them would have no idea that Dooku had a hand in it.

As I said, at least it was clear that Dooku never became Tyranus until after TPM, but this TCW retcon throws a spanner into the works.