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Sidious has found a new ally in Dooku and wonders if he is strong enough to serve as his apprentice over Maul. Sidious sends Dooku to Geonosis as a test of his worthiness of become his Sith apprentice. At the same time, Sidious dispatches Maul to Geonosis to await Dooku. Both are told that they need to kill the other to prove themselves worthy of apprenticeship to Sidious.

The two meet and clash blades. Who wins?

Like always, Dooku.

Why? Surely you at least think this would be a good fight?

As swordsman: Him being, along with Mace, the best swordsman of the Orders history, after Yoda.
Force-wise, him being > Yaddle.

Yes, it is. Maul likely takes a few rounds as well.

If Dooku winning is predicated by being on-par with Mace and better than all the other Jedi at the time, then what have Mace/other Jedi done to put them over Maul by TPM?

It is more that he is above Ulic, Meetra and co. even at this point.

I don't believe the gap between TPM Maul and TCW Maul is very large.

But then I feel the same way about Jedi and Sith Dooku tbh.

Given that, I think this fight would be closer but still leaning towards Dooku edging it out given he was still the Temples greatest student, and still had spent decades mastering Makashi to the highest level.

Legends or Canon, btw?

What does Canon Dooku have as of TPM?

Yoda's "HURR-DURR BEST JEDI U WERE"

In Canon? Where?

Maul has more impressive feats, and possibly accolades, too.

"Our greatest Stundent. Our greatest failure."

That's from Y: DR, which is Legends. I was asking for Canon.

You're right. Well, Canon TPM Dooku is only a typical master duelist then.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Maul has more impressive feats, and possibly accolades, too. This is my impression as well, but I'm willing to hear an actual argument for Dooku.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
You're right. Well, Canon TPM Dooku is only a typical master duelist then.

Right, so it has to be Legends.

Originally posted by ILS
This is my impression as well, but I'm willing to hear an actual argument for Dooku.

What do you think of Siolo'urmanka vs Maul? Just curious since Dooku is factually more skilled than Siolo, who seemed to be giving Maul quite a beating, though that comic probably took place a few years before TPM.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Right, so it has to be Legends.
I thought so, but the Forum rules assume Canon

I made the thread with Legends in mind. Legends it is.

That's all I wanted to know
Dooku wins.

Originally posted by SunRazer
What do you think of Siolo'urmanka vs Maul? Just curious since Dooku is factually more skilled than Siolo, who seemed to be giving Maul quite a beating, though that comic probably took place a few years before TPM. 1. The comic is incredibly archaic and dubiously canon, given it belongs to SW: Tales, and the story of how Maul built his saberstaff has since been retconned.

2. Siolo left the order (apparently) 70 years before he fought Maul, ergo Dooku's accolade doesn't really apply to him.

3. And yes, it was quite a bit before Maul's prime presumably if that was when he first made his saberstaff.

Originally posted by ILS
1. The comic is incredibly archaic and dubiously canon, given it belongs to SW: Tales, and the story of how Maul built his saberstaff has since been retconned.

2. Siolo left the order (apparently) 70 years before he fought Maul, ergo Dooku's accolade doesn't really apply to him.

3. And yes, it was quite a bit before Maul's prime presumably if that was when he first made his saberstaff.

1. The retcon about Maul's saberstaff is right, but I don't think that's enough grounds to dismiss the entire story.

2. Don't know which accolade you're referring to, but Dooku has an accolade stating that he's only ever been eclipsed in the history of the Jedi Order up to AotC by Mace and Yoda in terms of swordsmanship. So by proxy, you can technically scale him off characters like KotOR Revan, KotOR II Exile, etc. along with Siolo'urmanka, which means that he does have a good chance of being Maul's superior with a blade. Of course, that's just swordsmanship.

3. It apparently takes place between 37 - 32 BBY.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. The retcon about Maul's saberstaff is right, but I don't think that's enough grounds to dismiss the entire story.

2. Don't know which accolade you're referring to, but Dooku has an accolade stating that he's only ever been eclipsed in the history of the Jedi Order up to AotC by Mace and Yoda in terms of swordsmanship.

3. It apparently takes place between 37 - 32 BBY. 1. I would say it is. In the Siolo story Maul made the saberstaff to better combat him. In every other more modern story, he made the saberstaff because Sidious suggested it to him. That unravels the very basis for the Siolo story. It would be like me suggesting that even if the Maul clone fighting Vader isn't canon, there is still some merit to the story, and thus TPM Maul > Vader circa ANH. In other words, after TFU.

2. What I'm saying is, Siolo wasn't a Jedi for decades. He was a recluse. And the whole point of his character is that he left the Order, meditated in solitude for decades, and became incredibly powerful in the Force as a result - he found some kind of enlightenment away from the Jedi that few others do. I think you'd have to take a pretty slanted view to attribute his abilities to Dooku. Also, he uses a staff, not a sword.

3. It would have to be before every story in which Maul has a saberstaff, which is at least many years before TPM.

None of them are necessarily better than Maul with a blade.

Originally posted by ILS
1. I would say it is. In the Siolo story Maul made the saberstaff to better combat him. In every other more modern story, he made the saberstaff because Sidious suggested it to him. That unravels the very basis for the Siolo story. It would be like me suggesting that even if the Maul clone fighting Vader isn't canon, there is still some merit to the story, and thus TPM Maul > Vader circa ANH. In other words, after TFU.

Well, I honestly wouldn't be against that, considering that Vader's a shadow of his former self as of ANH and has no feats above Maul anyways.



Well, he's still a duelist, and the point is that Dooku's a better/equal duelist than any Jedi bar Mace/Yoda up to AotC, which includes Siolo. If your point is that he became better in solitude, that's possible but unlikely to make up for the accolade.

I would hardly say that the logic of Dooku > Siolo > Maul is flawless either, of course. Just interested to see how far I can take it.



Is he shown with one before 37 BBY?

Originally posted by ILS
None of them are necessarily better than Maul with a blade.

True, I was more going for equal with them. That's operating on the belief that Dooku's better than them with a blade, considering that the definition of "eclipse" means to "deprive of significance or power", which suggests that if they were all equal with Dooku, his standing as a duelist would indeed be deprived of significance.

So, TPM Dooku > Siolo > Maul > Vader?

You understand why that has to unravel at some point, right?
He doesn't wield a lightsaber, nor is he a Jedi, and hadn't been one for 70 years. He's basically an anomaly from an old ass comic. Also, he did become better in solitude; that isn't up for dispute because it mentions his enlightenment in the comic. I don't have it on-hand, but it's in there.

In The Wrath of Darth Maul I recall him constructing it shortly after passing his Sith Lord trial, which is when he was about 17. That's about 37BBY.

So, I guess I'm saying that I don't think Dooku being tied for the second best Jedi swordsman really applies to a former-Jedi hermit with a wooden staff, who grew in power substantially since leaving the Order, and doesn't help prove Dooku can defeat a Maul who had gained 5 years of experience since losing to Siolo. Add in that it's an ancient comic which is from a dubiously canon line of comics, and has had one of it's major plot elements retconned by every other source... and I'm going to say this line of reasoning is impossible to reconcile for your argument.
While I'm all for Dooku being > all the other Jedi before him, I also don't see said Jedi being along Maul's lines, either.

As for accolades, Maul isn't lacking. He's constantly celebrated as being one of the most "skilled", "highly trained", "lethal", and "dangerous" Sith warriors in the history of the Order.

He was trained by the most powerful Sith ever for 20 years, from infancy, for the purpose of being able to carry on the Rule of Two should he need to. Training which was 1,000 years more advanced than that of Bane's, meaning (to cut a long story short), Maul is likely to be better than Bane. And then you look at Bane's own absurd feats, and his accolade of being superior to every Sith preceding him.

I know not everyone subscribes to that line of thought, so another is that Maul was so important to Sidious that he:

-Was concealed from Plagueis at Sidious' own peril
-Stolen from Talzin, despite Talzin being comparably powerful to Sidious, and having secrets of the Dark Side he coveted at the time, which she would now not share with him
-Constantly received praise from him on how flawless his blade technique is, even in Sidious' private musings, along with praise from Plagueis on his "astonishing" speed

And, Sidious didn't even think it possible that Maul could have survived his injuries in TPM, despite being the most knowledgeable and powerful Sith in history. Meaning, Maul's feat of surviving being bisected is unprecedented, as far as Sidious knows.

Combine that with Maul's obvious stylistic advantages in a fight (all manners of physicality and his application of them with Juyo) and I don't see Jedi Dooku taking him.

Should also be noted that Siolo was noted as being one of the Jedi Order's greatest warriors before his seclusion and growth in power, so I'm not sure why this would be a mark against a vastly pre-prime TPM Maul anyway.

By the by Swords, I wouldn't be trying to mix Canon Maul's backstory with Legends, seeing as we're gonna be getting Canon material backstory for him soon. Otherwise it's probably gonna get confusing.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That's from Y: DR, which is Legends. I was asking for Canon.


It's in "Absolutely Everything You Need To Know" as well. So Canon has adopted that.

This honestly depends on truly how large or small the power gap between TCW and TPM Maul is. If the gap is small, he could beat Dooku, considering he became more powerful as a Sith. If the gap is large, and TPM Maul is significantly weaker than his TCW version, Dooku probably takes this.

^ But also depends on the gap between Jedi Dooku and Sith Dooku

I think that if the gap isn't very significant between TPM and TCW Maul, either of them > Jedi Dooku.

In terms of either canon or legends, Maul is the one sitting on a nuclear stockpile of evidence for his combat skill/power as of TPM. Dooku isn't. IIRC the way things are done on KMC is you take evidence, and then you reach a conclusion, and then worry about assumptions later on. Is Dooku void of this criteria because he's a senior citizen, or?

Well there doesn't seem to be a large gap between any of the 3main versions of Maul tbh. TPM, TCW or Rebels.

Which I feel don't make much sense, but alright writers..

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well there doesn't seem to be a large gap between any of the 3main versions of Maul tbh. TPM, TCW or Rebels. I think what's logical is Maul increasing all the time gradually, like everyone else, with some surges in power in between (surviving his bisection and festering his hatred on Lotho Minor being the first, and seeing Savage/Talzin die being the second).

Rebels > TCW > TPM.

I'm disappointed that he hasn't changed much between TCW and Rebels, character-wise.

I mean, sure, Maul obviously increased in power, the real question is how much. What do you think, ILS?

We need some kind of gauge to determine anything, and a gauge is what we don't have.

I think both Maul and Dooku grew significantly in power(not skill) since TPM.

Yoda says as much in AOTC: "Powerful you have become Dooku. The Dark side I sense in you."

As for Maul, leaving dubious TK feats aside(which don't translate well across different mediums), both Yoda and Dooku himself sensed Maul's power in the Dark side and were greatly disturbed.

And while Maul isn't purposely cloaking himself like Sidious, it's still notable that Yoda senses him from across the galaxy despite never having met him.

And it's especially impressive given that:
a) Sidious is actively blunting the Jedi's Force connection("our ability to use..."
b) Yoda didn't sense Dooku's fall to the Dark nor his growing power in the since TPM, despite having a close bond with him for decades. And he also didn't sense Maul previously, in TPM.

As for who would win, like every match-up between Dooku and Maul, it's probably a toss-up.

Dooku sans his Dark powers is still probably stronger than Qui-Gon, although in his general league. But Maul did beat Qui-Gon rather handily, despite also having Obi-Wan to contend with.

Maybe Maul takes this, given that Sidious specifically trained him as a Jedi killer, and he also had some real live experience against other Force users in the year leading up to TPM.

Dooku would have only sparred with other Jedi(and sparring is different than real kill or be killed fighing) plus whatever combat experience against he would have picked up in his missions as a Jedi, which probably wasn't much given that by TPM he had no padawan and was probably an elder statesman type of figure in the Order.

Maul on the other hand dueled Anoon Bondara and his padawan, Komari Vosa, Mighella, the padawan in the upcoming Maul novel. And he was also keeping himself quite busy, what with slaughtering Black Sun or fighting in prison deathmatches and all that.

Maybe the extra EXP gives him the edge.

Feats from Dooku that rival doing pushups, killing Old post prime Jedi, and being really buff?

*doing one handed pushups as a 3 year old.

Maul wins.

Originally posted by ILS
So, TPM Dooku > Siolo > Maul > Vader?

You understand why that has to unravel at some point, right?

ANH Vader, who's factually a hell of a lot less than Anakin as a duelist. Or even Obi-Wan as of RotS.

Anyways, the scaling isn't anywhere near as concrete as you're suggesting. TPM Maul has five years on the one that fought Siolo, and against Vader, they were described by the Prophets as being "evenly matched" - presumably Maul's edge was through agility rather than skill.



That's fair.



Depends. KotOR Revan basically stomped Malak (if you factor in the circumstances), whilst KotOR II Exile beat Traya (who I hold to be around Savage Opress-level as a duelist) under some pretty negative circumstances.



Dooku's one of the greatest dueling masters in the history of the galaxy. I don't think he's sitting below Maul at all.



I'm curious, but how much of a setback do you think Gravid destroying Sith knowledge was? It obviously wasn't a setback in terms of power, since Gean still killed and succeeded him, and since Darth Plagueis suggests that Gean's powers weren't diminished by her prostheses, her apprentice would've legitimately continued the Banite scaling by killing her.



Well, some of that refers to potential, which isn't applicable here.



I think it has more to do with Sidious not expecting Maul to be able to survive it as opposed to thinking that it's impossible to survive. Your interpretation makes no sense considering relative nothings like Maw do the same.



The stylistic advantages bit is overblown. Dooku's (routinely?) sparred with physical superiors to Maul in Yoda.

Maul wins. The biggest factor in Qui Gon's death was his old age and resulting physical handicap. Qui Gon was 50, Dooku would be 70 years old in TPM. Without the dark-side to draw from he would inevitably lose to Maul for the same reasons as Qui Gon.

I doubt Dooku could beat elites like Black sun non force sensitives and practice against combat droids. Dooku loses

Probably Dooku, but other than speculation there's not really much evidence to back it up.

The man soon to be Tyranus wins.

Originally posted by MythLord
The man soon to be Tyranus wins. I'm sorry, you only refer to him by Jard during this era.

Originally posted by MythLord
The man soon to be Tyranus wins. Based on ?

Originally posted by MythLord
The man soon to be Tyranus wins. Indeed.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Indeed. Based on ?

Dooku in a good fight.

I honestly think TPM Maul > Jedi Dooku, only slightly.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Which I feel don't make much sense, but alright writers..

Probably due to his injuries, not training at all for 10+ years, not learning anything further from Palpatine, then going into hiding for 15+years.

But the fact that he picked himself back up each time and still improved on his previous prime speaks to that "classical Sith training" (as Witwer puts it) ingrained into him.


Originally posted by ILS
I think what's logical is Maul increasing all the time gradually, like everyone else, with some surges in power in between (surviving his bisection and festering his hatred on Lotho Minor being the first, and seeing Savage/Talzin die being the second).


True but like Vader, much of that increase in rage had to first compensate for his injuries before it started to make him more powerful than his previous prime.



Originally posted by ILS
Rebels > TCW > TPM.




Yeah probably, I just don't think it's a huge difference. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see Rebels Maul stomping TPM Maul, the way say ROTS Kenobi would stomp TPM Kenobi.
I personally see Rebels Maul winning with difficulty against TPM Maul and with a lot of difficulty against TCW Maul.

He's actually stated to have increased in power from TPM to TCW, is he not? But yeah, I agree that it's not a very noticeable difference.

Originally posted by Petrus
He's actually stated to have increased in power from TPM to TCW, is he not? But yeah, I agree that it's not a very noticeable difference.


That's Legends now I believe. Not confirmed in the new Canon as of yet. Although the author of Shadow Conspiracy probably got notes from Filoni when writing the novel.

But yeah, either way, the massive rage boost had to compensate for his injuries first, so the end result was a more powerful Maul, but perhaps only slightly more powerful.

Maul gets stomped

Lmao @ someone who gets cut in half by a padawan beating Dooku

Originally posted by carthage
Maul gets stomped

Lmao @ someone who gets cut in half by a padawan beating Dooku Context, dummy.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Context, dummy.
Don't bother trying to talk sense into the biggest troll on these forums

Originally posted by Kurk
Don't bother trying to talk sense into the biggest troll on these forums He has lost all credibility just like Sunrazer.

Legends? Dooku was able to compete with Yoda, was Mace's equal/superior, led an attack on last group of true Mandalorians, stomped a guy who nearly killed Maul as a padawan... he got arrested by pirates. Against the same group of pirates Maul tried to run, lost a leg and barely survived that. Also, he nearly was outmaneuver by a padawan short before TPM, was cut in half by another padawan, lost to Kanan and was nearly killed by a dog. Perhaps he will loose to Ezra in this season of Rebels as well.
He also was pretty close to being killed by Jinn, and after that was forced onto defense by him. Jinn's lack of stamina saved him. Bondara's suicide wasn't far from giving him a serious injury as well.

Dooku takes this, even as a Jedi.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He has lost all credibility just like Sunrazer.

Originally posted by McP
Against the same group of pirates Maul tried to run, lost a leg and barely survived that. Also, he nearly was outmaneuver by a padawan short before TPM, was cut in half by another padawan, lost to Kanan and was nearly killed by a dog. Perhaps he will loose to Ezra in this season of Rebels as well.
He also was pretty close to being killed by Jinn, and after that was forced onto defense by him. Jinn's lack of stamina saved him. Bondara's suicide wasn't far from giving him a serious injury as well. Man, such a balanced analysis. Pat yourself on the back!

Maul beat a random nightsister and thugs with guns. What a badass

So what's the exact reason here that Dooku wins?



The pirate thing, the Kanan thing, the dog thing and Dooku competing with Yoda doesn't apply here(unless Dooku as of TPM is able to compete with him.) since all of this is after TPM and all of it's Canon(not including the Yoda thing), not Legends anyway.

Originally posted by carthage
Maul beat a random nightsister and thugs with guns. What a badass Dooku was taken in without incident by Hondo and some jackass pirates. Advantage Maul, kiddo.

Originally posted by carthage
Maul gets stomped

Lmao @ someone who gets cut in half by a padawan beating Dooku



I guess Dooku can beat Vader as well then, given he also lost limbs to a "padawan".

Originally posted by McP
he got arrested by pirates. Against the same group of pirates Maul tried to run, lost a leg and barely survived that.

Not sure what your point is here? Dooku surrendered probably thinking he could escape the pirates later. And the fact that he surrendered shows he thought he'd also be shot down by them if he tried to fight.

Wasn't an option for Maul though who had Kenobi on his tail, and a severely injured brother to think about as well.



Originally posted by McP
was nearly killed by a dog.


LOL No he wasn't.

That's all irrelevant anyway, this is TPM Legends, not Canon and TCW.

Dooku.

Dooku.

Accolades and feats go to Dooku. Beating TPM Mace>Beating Qui-Gon and the other tired masters Maul defeated. And one need only look at the copious amounts of quotes calling him second to Yoda, rivaled only by Mace and Yoda, ect. to know that his accolades are superior as well.

What are TPM Dooku's feats?