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The five most powerful combatants after the birth of Yoda

vs.

The five most powerful combatants before the birth of Yoda

Not including entities like the Ones/Zonama, temporary power boosts, Nyax, UnuThul or the Terror From Beyond/Celestials/etc.

I'd say the five post-Yoda combatants would be:

Luke
Sidious
Yoda
Plagueis
Krayt or Caedus

Whereas pre-Yoda would be:

Valkorion
Exar Kun
Revan
Ragnos
Nadd? Hord?

In which case post-Yoda wins handily vs. the last 25,000 years of history. mmm

I just consider the ones after Yoda's birth, so, not Yoda himself.

Luke >> Valk
Sidious >>>> Exar
Plagueis >>> Revan
Caedus >> Ragnos
Krayt >> Nadd/Pall

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'd say the five POST-Yoda combatants would be: Yoda

...

To be fair, he meant ombatants after the birth of Yoda.
And Yoda fought after his birth. Lol.

That's just weird if we're talking pre and post Yoda it should be before and after his death. It would even make sense from a balance perspective since the post Yoda group has Luke. Unless Ell was trying to push an agenda to prove post Yoda era is simply better then what came before. No, that couldn't be.

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/vdare-live/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/greatwalloftrump.jpg

Supreme Leader Donald Trump puts a wall around this thread for trolling and spite!

Take it back, carry on Ell.

Well, post-Yoda's death is only a time period of 137 years.
Oh, and post-Yoda combatants vs pre-Yoda ones would still win, even excluding Nyax and 'Thul, lmao.

Probably but it would be as much of a spite match.

Well, post-Yoda still has Sidious, Luke, Caedus, Krayt, Shimrra, Onimi, The Hiddeon One, Kyp, Wyyrlok...

Wyyrlok and Kyp? Why mention them?

Because they're powerhouses?
Honestly, Kyp is at least comparable to Ragnos and co., while Wyyrlok compares to Sadow.

Wyyrlok a powerhouse?

Umm...

He is, lmao.
He is >>>>> Wredd.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Wyyrlok a powerhouse?
Wyyrlok is almost to Krayt as Droma is to Kun, tbh.

He's definitely a powerhouse.

No he's not. At beast he's the Dooku to Krayt's Yoda.

His best feat is causing Krayt to see illusions.

We also have scaling, gawddamnit. He is >> Nihl, and co, who is >> Wredd.
Also, he fought Reborn Krayt in a good fight, who is >> Vong Krayt. He didn't got stomped. He is close to VKrayt, may his near-equal.

He did get stomped in sabers and all his attacks were sent back with ease. Like Dooku he managed to redirect projectiles sent back at him and his best feat was causing Krayt to see illusions.

Uh, you should really re-read the fight. He didn't get stomped in sabers at all, lol.

He got stomped in Sabers = he isn't comparable powerful.
10/10 logic, Syn.

Augmentation is an indication of power. Regardless he doesn't have anything to mark him comparable to Krayt aside from causing him to see illusions which Caedus did to Luke.

Augmentation =/= Skill, lol.
Or Kenobi > Valk as force user.

Kenobi would likely be blitzed by Valk without effort... I'm simply saying the duel in no way shows they're comparable in the Force and that their Force bout doesn't show that either.

Yes, it actually does.
And he is still vastly above Wredd.

No it doesn't. His performance against Krayt was the exact same as Dooku's against Yoda except that he caused Krayt to see illusions.

He is above Wredd by an unknown margin.

No, lol. Also, Yoda was holding back massievely against Dooku.

Lets see:
Wyyrlok >> Nihl > Talon > Stryfe > Wredd's master > Wredd.

Yes, lol. if you disagree make your case or slink away. Prove Yoda was holding back.

How do you know what the gap is between Wyyrlok and Nihl?

And your scaling for Wredd doesn't work since he had somebody aiding him in the feat and it occurred multiple years after Wyyrlok's death. He was probably more powerful yes but you can't prove what the gap would be or if there even was one. Just the likliehood that there is.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
And your scaling for Wredd doesn't work since he had somebody aiding him in the feat and it occurred multiple years after Wyyrlok's death. He was probably more powerful yes but you can't prove what the gap would be or if there even was one. Just the likliehood that there is. The guy who was below the guy who was below the guy who was below the guy who was below the guy who wasn't even noticed by Krayt, and a novice Imperial Knight, don't have a chance in hell of being as powerful as Wyyrlok. And even if you only attribute half of the feat to Wredd, it's still immense.

You don't know what the gaps between those people he's below are. And Wredd's master was above him in overall combative ability but that doesn't mean he was above him in raw power. And this is only applicable prior to his death and the feat we're discussing took place after.

Not to mention Wredd being beneath his master in combative ability who was beneath Stryfe in your analogy for his insignificance to Krayt doesn't apply since Krayt DID notice Stryfe and in fact made him his Fist and the head of the Empire's military.

I'm not doubting the impressiveness of the feat.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
...

Yoda in his prime comes after his birth.

Yeah, Urs explained it.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Prove Yoda was holding back.

Wat. I mean, Yoda performed better on a potent DS Nexus against Tyranus, then in AotC. And he was most of the AotC fight on the defensive, and easily dominted Dooku after that.
And Yoda's equal could've blitzed Dooku's equal.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
And Yoda's equal could've blitzed Dooku's equal.

Eeehh... Yoda wasn't going all-out, sure, but to say he could blitz Dooku if he does is stretching it.

Beings on Mace's tier of skill would lose every time to Yoda/Sheev, and convincingly at that, but they should still fair far better than most.

Yep. I'll post the passages for both of their duels and you'll see that the one on Vjun lasted far longer.

Originally posted by MythLord
Eeehh... Yoda wasn't going all-out, sure, but to say he could blitz Dooku if he does is stretching it.

Beings on Mace's tier of skill would lose every time to Yoda/Sheev, and convincingly at that, but they should still fair far better than most.
Nah, I don't want to say that Dooku would've be blitzed as well, but that the gap is huge.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Yep. I'll post the passages for both of their duels and you'll see that the one on Vjun lasted far longer.

Doesn't necessarily mean it's longer. They're written by different authors, for one thing, who write at different paces. There's also varying degrees of description of individual moves and so on.

Caedus fight against Luke was also faaar longer than Luke vs Sidious.
Doesn't mean Caedus > Sidious either.

Heck, Caedus vs the Jedi Strike Team was in seconds, yet the prose is longer than some other fights (especially from junior novels) that are definitely longer.

Wasn't the AotC fight between Dooku and Yoda i the novel lf similar lenght, or even shorter? And we know that they fought twice as long as Caedus vs the Strike team.

Well, there's also the ANH duel, which is supposed to be "brief" but can have rather long passages (such as in Death Star).

Speaking of the ANH duel, the novel claims that Obi-Wan and Vader stare each other down for several minutes without moving, and that took only a single line to write down. Whereas the Caedus duel takes several paragraphs to cover a few seconds. Completely invalid method of comparison.

I'm not talking about the lines of the fight but how it's described to have gone down.

I've already told you that different authors describe fights differently.

And that's fine, that doesn't change that it tells us how long the fights went on for ( not in time of course but comparatively to other matches the same two fighters have had ).

Since when is there a definitive time for the AotC fight?

Use any of the sources for AotC. The fight in DR had more moves from the two combatants.

"Had more moves" lol.

Anyways, I'm not seeing what's wrong with the fight on Vjun lasting longer. If Dooku was amped, he'd do better against Yoda than when he was unamped on Geonosis, so the fight would be longer.

Lol what? Take the movie and count the offensive or defensive moves taken. Read the fight in DR and do the same. Or compare it to any of the text forms of the AotC fight. Don't really see what's so funny about it.

Yep.

No, I'm not wasting my time counting moves in the film, which isn't even the same medium as a novel. Moreover, there's differences in the number of moves in each medium of the films, since certain parts of fights are omitted or added on in each medium.

It doesn't matter if it's the same medium or not. If someone farted in a movie or in a book there's a line that says "Someone farted." It doesn't change the action. It's not as if the fundamentals of actions are changed in different mediums. Events can be but that's why I'm allowing you to pick the version you favor.

I'm aware of this which is why I said to take any version of the AotC fight. The one that comes closest to DR is the movie fight.

Well, seeing as I haven't actually bothered to count the number of moves, I won't press the notion. However, since they're moving faster on Vjun than on Geonosis, the comparison isn't particularly valid.

There's nothing to note Yoda's moving faster. Dooku logically is. The whole point of the debate between Wolf and I is that he thinks Yoda was holding back and was trying to point out the two fights they had to prove it and I showed that the DR fight lasted longer meaning it wasn't proof that Yoda was holding back in their fight on Genonosis. For that to be proven we would need evidence that the fight was shorter on DR.

I mean granted he would have rather captured Dooku alive of course, that's always the goal for Yoda as a Jedi. But he's not going to be holding back.

Isn't the entire premise of this to prove that Yoda held back on Geonosis? If so, he would be moving faster on Vjun, where he was going all-out.

The fight being longer doesn't disprove anything. Dooku was amped and Yoda hindered. The gap would've been smaller - the fight would've lasted longer.

No I'm saying that there's no proof he was. Wolf's trying to prove that.

Yep.

You mean Urs?

That depends. Yoda was definitely holding back in the Force - it's not a stretch to suggest that he took such a mindset into the duel as well. But of course, there's other evidence that disproves such a notion, so it's quite a conflicted case.

Whoever. They're pretty much the same person.

I don't think that's the case. I believe he took a mostly defensive stance so as to assess Dooku's new capabilities as a Sith Lord and upon learning the extent of his ability he decided he could end the fight more quickly and easily in a lightsaber bout.

Well, like most fights in the films, there's definitely different renditions of this.

It's also a valid case to say that Yoda's defensive stance at the beginning of the fight is him holding back, since he wasn't going all-out instantly like he did against the Emperor. So even if he wasn't withholding fighting skill, the case for him holding back is still perfectly valid.

Yep.

Like I said I think he's willing to hold back to the point of being reluctant to kill which is why he'd try to assess Dooku's capabilities to see if he could reasonably incapacitate him. He obviously didn't feel he was capable of doing so via the Force without potentially lethal consequences or that he could do so more easily/quickly/safely in a lightsaber bout.

And in a lightsaber bout he wouldn't be holding back his capabilities even if he was trying to incapacitate. What I mean by that is that even more then in a lethal duel Yoda would need to apply his full augmentation and ability to incapacitate Dooku without potentially lethal consequences.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Whoever. They're pretty much the same person.
Ayyy lmao.
Also, here is a quote in which Yoda effortlesy blocks Dooku's attacks, and says that he only want to prevent Dooku from reaching his ship:

AotC Junior Novelization.

So you're going with the junior novelizations? Just want to make sure.

No. I use all sources.
Anyway, why do you think that Dooku vs Yoda is similar to Wyyrlok vs Krayt?
And anyway, Dooku and Yoda are close to each other, like Wyyrlok and Krayt

Then you see how that source contradicts the others.

Because there performances against their superiors were the exact same aside from Wyyr cauing Krayt to see illusions.

Yes but there's an undeniable gap.

I do see the parallel between the fight and the Yoda vs Dooku fight, but I don't see how either fights were a "stomp."

DD, your assessment that Darth Krayt "stomped" Darth Wyyrlok is blatantly not true, especially considering Darth Wyyrlok could affect him telepathically in the midst of combat.

Contending with Darth Krayt to the degree he did certifies Darth Wyyrlok as a powerhouse.

I didn't say they were "stomped" in any area bar sabers.

Read above.

Well, if you're defining "powerhouse" at whatever margin of difference you believe exists between Krayt and Yoda and scale it to Dooku then that would be accurate. I'm a little more picky with who I'd call a "powerhouse" though.

Wyyrlok wasn't "stomped" in sabers though. Darth Krayt had the definite edge, but it's not like he disarmed Wyyrlok quickly (he didn't at all).

Also, we can just scale from Wredd, like I said before.

I guess you and I have different definitions of the word "stomp" then. Having your guard pierced within a few blows seems like pretty definitive stompage to me.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Also, we can just scale from Wredd, like I said before.

No you can't. Or at least not to establish the gap between them other then that there is one. I already explained why on the last several pages.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I guess you and I have different definitions of the word "stomp" then. Having your guard pierced within a few blows seems like pretty definitive stompage to me.
When was his guard pierced? Wyyrlok wasn't disarmed.

I didn't say he was...

http://static7.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4577225-star+wars+-+legacy%E2%80%94war+001-020.jpg

You said his guard was pierced?

Wyyrlok was never touched by Krayt's sabers.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
No you can't. Or at least not to establish the gap between them other then that there is one. I already explained why on the last several pages.
You can. You just must use logic.
Or do you think that Wredd comes from <<<< Nihl, to > Wyyrlok in one year? LMAO. I also don't think that a random IK can close the gap between them.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You said his guard was pierced?

Yes.

It wasn't. Where the hell was his guard pierced?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


Wyyrlok was never touched by Krayt's sabers.

Umm... Yes he was. You can see it right there in the scan.

I've always seen that as them disengaging from the bladelock.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I've always seen that as them disengaging from the bladelock.
There's no visible scorch mark on Wyyrlok when Krayt stabs him at the end of the TP.

https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/17/73/92/12/wyyrlo12.jpg

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It wasn't. Where the hell was his guard pierced?

http://i.imgur.com/0FnG5sR.jpg?1

Yeah, no. That seems to be where the point from which their blades disengaged.

Since Wyyrlok is uninjured in the scan I posted.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
You can. You just must use logic.
Or do you think that Wredd comes from <<<< Nihl, to > Wyyrlok in one year? LMAO. I also don't think that a random IK can close the gap between them.

No I'm saying that while you can establish a gap you can't establish what that gap would be given the feat was accomplished after his death, it was accomplished by two people and the gap between the people above him is unknown.

Ant, why are you bothering with Syndicate? You know he'll just accuse you of kidnapping children so you can indoctrinate them to the Krayt-wanking cause. mmm

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yeah, no. That seems to be where the point from which their blades disengaged.

Since Wyyrlok is uninjured in the scan I posted.

You understand that he's wearing armor and that lightsaber wounds are instantly cauterized?

Originally posted by MythLord
Ant, why are you bothering with Syndicate? You know he'll just accuse you of kidnapping children so you can indoctrinate them to the Krayt-wanking cause. mmm

I have no problem with Krayt myself. I just don't understand the blatant denial of evidence.

Uh, armor isn't immune to scorch-marks, especially considering Krayt's lightsaber can go right through it.

If Krayt's blade hit Wyyrlok, it would show.

The armor is black. Scorch marks are black. And the area it would be scorched would be the one that's blocked by the lightsaber blades Krayt is shoving through his chest.

They did hit regardless of if you think it shows or not. The scan makes that clear.

For the record, I never once heard the argument Krayt pierced Wyyrlok. I didn't even consider that until this discussion, so I'm not "ignoring" anything - that's the community consensus.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
The armor is black. Scorch marks are black. And the area it would be scorched would be the one that's blocked by the lightsaber blades Krayt is shoving through his chest.

They did hit regardless of if you think it shows or not. The scan makes that clear.
Scorch marks would be blatantly displayed. And no it wouldn't, the side would be displayed.

Uh, obviously not. You seem to be alone in thinking so.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Scorch marks would be blatantly displayed. And no it wouldn't, the side would be displayed.

Uh, obviously not. You seem to be alone in thinking so.

The blades slashed across the chest piece so that's logically where the scorch mark would appear.

That's fine with me.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
that's the community consensus.

I don't care?

https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/17/73/92/12/wat10.jpg

It would have shown.

That's where his armor is. Either the scorch mark blended in with the black armor or is being obscured by the light from the blade.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=637144