Revan and Arcann vs Darth Vader and Ahsoka Tano

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DarthAnt66
Who wins?

AncientPower
Honestly, Revan should have the power to spare to fodderise Tano in a Force contest, so he might solo.

Emperordmb
Revan>Vader>Arcann>Ahsoka

Team one.

Tondemonai
Originally posted by AncientPower
Honestly, Revan should have the power to spare to fodderise Tano in a Force contest, so he might solo.

Ursumeles
Team 1, as long as Team 2 gets no blaster.

MythLord
Team 1.

Rebel95
Originally posted by MythLord
Team 1.

darthbane77
Originally posted by AncientPower
Honestly, Revan should have the power to spare to fodderise Tano in a Force contest, so he might solo.

Trocity
Revan shares parity with the likes of ROTJ Sidious, he solos this thread, including Arcann.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Trocity
Revan shares parity with the likes of ROTJ Sidious, he solos this thread, including Arcann.
LMFAO good one.

Beniboybling
Team 2 if the ground is unstable and Ahsoka gets a blaster.

Azronger
Ahsoka is a weak link.

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by Emperordmb
LMFAO good one.

He wasn't joking Emp...

Ursumeles
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
He wasn't joking Emp...
He was, I think.

That was a DB77 parody.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
He wasn't joking Emp...
I certainly hope he was.

Ursumeles
Nah, Trocity trools about Revan quie often, tbh.

S_W_LeGenD
Team 1 solidly

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Team 1 fo sho

nfactor1995
Revan/Arcann win

darthbane77
Originally posted by Ursumeles
He was, I think.

That was a DB77 parody. You'll be happy to know I don't have Revan that high anymore, and I'm not sure what possessed me to think he was in the first place. But my opinion that Revan shares parity with the likes of ROTS Sidious and Yoda (in terms of the Force ONLY) is still very much intact.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by darthbane77
You'll be happy to know I don't have Revan that high anymore, and I'm not sure what possessed me to think he was in the first place. But my opinion that Revan shares parity with the likes of ROTS Sidious and Yoda (in terms of the Force ONLY) is still very much intact.
Still disgusting wink
i like u tho <3

darthbane77
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Still disgusting wink
i like u tho <3 thumb up

SunRazer
Originally posted by darthbane77
You'll be happy to know I don't have Revan that high anymore, and I'm not sure what possessed me to think he was in the first place. But my opinion that Revan shares parity with the likes of ROTS Sidious and Yoda (in terms of the Force ONLY) is still very much intact.

That's canonically untrue. As well as by feats.

darthbane77
Originally posted by SunRazer
That's canonically untrue. As well as by feats. How so exactly? Revan isn't a Sith or a Jedi during SoR, so it doesn't contradict Sidious' and Yoda's "most powerful ever" quotes in way at all.

SunRazer
I didn't say they directly scaled off him, although you can easily interpret Revan as a foe of the darkness and thus Yoda being stronger, but given that even TPM Palpatine is factually more powerful than Vitiate/Valkorion, I don't think it's difficult to see RotS Sidious or Yoda above Revan.

And then there's feats, like I said.

darthbane77
Originally posted by SunRazer
I didn't say they directly scaled off him, although you can easily interpret Revan as a foe of the darkness and thus Yoda being stronger, but given that even TPM Palpatine is factually more powerful than Vitiate/Valkorion, I don't think it's difficult to see RotS Sidious or Yoda above Revan.

And then there's feats, like I said. I don't think any of ROTS Palpatine's or Yoda's feats put them solidly above Revan. They're superior by a slight margin, but not by any large degree. True, you could consider Revan a foe of the darkness, so I grant you that, but I interpret it as more of being a lesser evil; so he's Dark Side but he isn't Sith. It more just Dark Side v Dark Side with Revan a that point. TPM Palpatine isn't above Valkorion or even Vitiate for that matter. A case for Plagueis could be made for being above Vitiate, but even then it's highly debatable depending on whether one considers back cover blurbs as canon, which I do not. That's also a debate (cover blurb debate) that I don't feel like having at the moment.

SunRazer
No. Sourcebooks outright state that TPM Sidious is the most powerful Sith Master ever. There's no need for the blurb.

As for Revan being a foe of the darkness, if you agree to that, then Yoda scales off him, since Yoda is the most powerful foe the darkness has ever faced according to RotS.

I don't have time for an extensive feats analysis right now, but regardless, I was contesting the notion that they were equal, which is what you suggested earlier with the word "parity".

darthbane77
Originally posted by SunRazer
No. Sourcebooks outright state that TPM Sidious is the most powerful Sith Master ever. There's no need for the blurb.

As for Revan being a foe of the darkness, if you agree to that, then Yoda scales off him, since Yoda is the most powerful foe the darkness has ever faced according to RotS.

I don't have time for an extensive feats analysis right now, but regardless, I was contesting the notion that they were equal, which is what you suggested earlier with the word "parity".
James Luceno disagrees.

I didn't say I agree with that, I said "True, you could consider Revan a foe of the darkness, so I grant you that, but I interpret it as more of being a lesser evil; so he's Dark Side but he isn't Sith. It more just Dark Side v Dark Side with Revan a that point." So what I said is that Revan's situation at that point can be interpreted in different ways, your impression of it is a valid one, but so is mine.

Yeah, that's my bad, I used the wrong word. Revan is arguably on par with them, what's more likely is that he's slightly below them. So I apologize for confusing my vocabulary there.

AncientPower
So now Razer is using a level 4 children's literacy guide for the TPM movie, all common sense has been lost.

SunRazer
Originally posted by darthbane77
James Luceno disagrees.

He doesn't. He thought Plagueis could undermine Sidious in a duel, which doesn't necessarily refer to being more powerful. Sidious grew more powerful and factually surpassed Plagueis upon killing him anyway. The quote I'm talking about refers to Sidious after striking down Plagueis. Luceno's opinion only refers to pre-Plagueis death Sidious, not post-Plagueis death as I'm referring to.

Author opinions don't matter anyway.



I didn't say he has to be Sith. I'm not scaling Sidious off him, lmfao. The point is that Yoda is the most formidable foe the darkness has ever known up to RotS. Ergo, he's stronger than Revan overall.



No, he isn't on par with them at all. TPM Sidious alone is more powerful than Valkorion, who's more powerful than Vitiate, who's more powerful than Revan. Never mind RotS Sidious, who's continually grown in power since TPM Sidious, and Yoda, who's equal to or virtually equal to RotS Sidious in power.

Revan isn't anywhere near as powerful as beings that can cause weather storms across galactic distances just by appearing as a hologram.

SunRazer
Originally posted by AncientPower
So now Razer is using a level 4 children's literacy guide for the TPM movie, all common sense has been lost.

It's a factual, objective Legends source that refers to all of history. Common sense is that it applies.

Applying demeaning descriptions to sources to try and undermine their validity for the purposes of forwarding an agenda is hardly what I'd call common sense, either.

darthbane77
Originally posted by SunRazer
He doesn't. He thought Plagueis could undermine Sidious in a duel, which doesn't necessarily refer to being more powerful. Sidious grew more powerful and factually surpassed Plagueis upon killing him anyway. The quote I'm talking about refers to Sidious after striking down Plagueis. Luceno's opinion only refers to pre-Plagueis death Sidious, not post-Plagueis death as I'm referring to.

Author opinions don't matter anyway.



I didn't say he has to be Sith. I'm not scaling Sidious off him, lmfao. The point is that Yoda is the most formidable foe the darkness has ever known up to RotS. Ergo, he's stronger than Revan overall.



No, he isn't on par with them at all. TPM Sidious alone is more powerful than Valkorion, who's more powerful than Vitiate, who's more powerful than Revan. Never mind RotS Sidious, who's continually grown in power since TPM Sidious, and Yoda, who's equal to or virtually equal to RotS Sidious in power.

Revan isn't anywhere near as powerful as beings that can cause weather storms across galactic distances just by appearing as a hologram.
I just had this same debate with Ant on Facebook actually, I interpreted the text as meaning something difference based on other things that have occurred in the mythos that are similar to Sidious' killing of Plagueis. This is what I told Ant, part of what I told him anyway.

"That's testament to his strength in the Force. Likewise, "skill and ability to do so" doesn't necessarily mean Palpatine was superior. Luke bested Vader without being superior to him, Zannah bested Bane without (arguably) being superior to him. It simple suggests that Sidious, by that point, had acquired the means to be able to kill Plagueis. Not that Sidious was actually superior. More like a "I've learned a lot from you but I can take it from here" kind of thing."

I already explained why Revan wasn't technically a champion against the darkness, meaning he isn't covered by the Yoda quote (not saying Revan is >Yoda btw, because he isn't.) But you seem to have skipped over that explanation entirely.

The fact that the text you're referring to leave TPM Sidious' "superiority" to Valkorion completely up to debate. Valkorion isn't Sith and therefore isn't covered under the blanket of Sidious' "greatest ever" feats and accolades. As well, feats also say otherwise. Vitiate has feats approaching ROTS Sidious level, and Valkorion is considerably more powerful than Vitiate was. Which would mean Valkorion is likely approaching at least TFU or ROTJ Sidious level, and a case can even be made for Valkorion approaching DE Sidious level.

And again, a lot of this is dependent on 1: the back cover blurb and 2: interpretation of text, which I 1: do not consider canon, and 2: interpret differently than you.

On the topic of Revan, he has plenty of feats that are comparable to Yoda and Palpatine's.

AncientPower
Originally posted by SunRazer
It's a factual, objective Legends source that refers to all of history. Common sense is that it applies.

Applying demeaning descriptions to sources to try and undermine their validity for the purposes of forwarding an agenda is hardly what I'd call common sense, either.

It isn't actually Legends though, it's a guide for the movie and only references the saga, nothing more. I own the thing, it's barely even a sourcebook.

It isn't an agenda, so much as an appeal to common sense. The statement directly contradicts the fact that we know Plagueis > Sidious at the time of his death according to Legends.

We also have the direct contradiction that Sidious killed Plagueis first and took Maul as a genuine Sith apprentice. Neither of which align with the Plagueis novel either.

If you're going to make an actual argument regarding Sidious > Vitiate, at least do so without shitting on your own intelligence. You're far smarter than this.

darthbane77
^^^^^ thumb up Yay, somebody kind of agrees with me. haha, that's a first.

SunRazer
Originally posted by darthbane77
I just had this same debate with Ant on Facebook actually, I interpreted the text as meaning something difference based on other things that have occurred in the mythos that are similar to Sidious' killing of Plagueis. This is what I told Ant, part of what I told him anyway.

"That's testament to his strength in the Force. Likewise, "skill and ability to do so" doesn't necessarily mean Palpatine was superior. Luke bested Vader without being superior to him, Zannah bested Bane without (arguably) being superior to him. It simple suggests that Sidious, by that point, had acquired the means to be able to kill Plagueis. Not that Sidious was actually superior. More like a "I've learned a lot from you but I can take it from here" kind of thing."

Sidious isn't superior at the time he kills Plagueis, but he's superior after he kills Plagueis. The novel depicts him growing more powerful upon killing Damask, and sources confirm his superiority after doing so. You can find them on my TPM Sidious RT.



Well, Revan defines himself as exactly that in the novel, so at least that version is counted. But at this point, we're just arguing semantics. If you do believe that Revan counts as a foe of the darkness, then Yoda scales off him. That's all it comes down to.



Valkorion's stated to be a Sith entity.



Running by feats, Revan isn't close to on par with Sidious or Yoda.



Not really. TPM Sidious has already concealed himself from Yoda's senses, grown tenfold in power since effortlessly collapsing buildings, and been anointed by galaxy-wide dark side shockwaves. He also gets scaling from Plagueis' feats.

RotS Sidious' feats are already superior, and there's the accolades.



Like?

SunRazer
Originally posted by AncientPower
It isn't actually Legends though, it's a guide for the movie and only references the saga, nothing more. I own the thing, it's barely even a sourcebook.

It is Legends. It's from before the split, therefore it applies to Legends. And it refers to all of history. I mean, when it says "most powerful Sith Master who ever lived", do you really think that just applies to nobody? lol



It refers to after Plagueis' death, by which time Sidious is canonically more powerful than Plagueis.



Then that's an inaccuracy. Most sourcebooks have inaccuracies one way or another - doesn't mean the entirety of it is invalidated.



I've made alternate cases many times. I'm just using available evidence to make another.

AncientPower
You realise the official Canon timeline reflects what the guide says? Sidious killed Plagueis beforehand and took Maul as his apprentice. It is not an inaccuracy, if anything it further reflects the fact it's the equivalent of a G-canon reference guide with no reference or baring on the actual C-canon. To go back a few years.

SunRazer
You do realize that the guide was published before DP? And that it's basically saying what every Legends guide before DP says? lol

UCanShootMyNova
Aren't there like a billion sources that confirm Palpatine's supremacy?

darthbane77
Originally posted by SunRazer
Sidious isn't superior at the time he kills Plagueis, but he's superior after he kills Plagueis. The novel depicts him growing more powerful upon killing Damask, and sources confirm his superiority after doing so. You can find them on my TPM Sidious RT.



Well, Revan defines himself as exactly that in the novel, so at least that version is counted. But at this point, we're just arguing semantics. If you do believe that Revan counts as a foe of the darkness, then Yoda scales off him. That's all it comes down to.



Valkorion's stated to be a Sith entity.



Running by feats, Revan isn't close to on par with Sidious or Yoda.



Not really. TPM Sidious has already concealed himself from Yoda's senses, grown tenfold in power since effortlessly collapsing buildings, and been anointed by galaxy-wide dark side shockwaves. He also gets scaling from Plagueis' feats.

RotS Sidious' feats are already superior, and there's the accolades.



Like? The text doesn't say he became more powerful than Plagueis' upon Damask's death, it only makes note that Sidious increased in power.

The novel version of Revan is counted I agree. I don't count SoR Revan as an enemy of the darkness as much as an extension of darkness opposing another extension of darkness, much like rivalry between Sith. They're both dark, but are arrayed against each other.

He also states that he is no longer Sith, the quote to which you're referring was based on the knowledge that the Coalition had at the time, they assumed Vitiate was still Sith; therefore the quote reflects as much because it's expressing and recapping what the player already knows before beginning KOTFE.

Vitiate hid his presence from the Jedi for over a thousand years. Jedi Master Baral Ovair was a Sith spy who hid himself from the Jedi for decades as well, which means it's possible to easily hide from the Jedi for more than just the ultra powerful Sith, so that alone takes away from Sidious' feat.

Revan being (arguably) hindered a DS nexus against Vitiate who would have been amped by the nexus. Contending (twice) and barely falling to a strike team consisting of the 8 protags at the Temple of Sacrifice, and then again at the Forgotten Terrace against an almost equally impressive strike team, both teams being superior to the B-team that Sheev steamrolled. Causing a galaxy wide disturbance in the Force that left many Force users (such as Lana Beniko) shaken and doubting themselves. And that's just novel and SoR feats, others that I think are at least somewhat comparable would be Revan bwing hindered while fighting through the Star Forge non-stop against dozens upon dozens of amped Sith and SF droids and then fighting an amped Dark Bastila and Darth Malak back to back, as well as fighting his way out of the Valley of the Dark Lords and through the Dreshdae settlement against the hundreds of Sith that were present at the time; Revan would have, once again, been hindered by the DS Nexus on Korriban while his opponents were amped.

On a side note, I think I'm getting better at this, lol.

SunRazer
Originally posted by darthbane77
The text doesn't say he became more powerful than Plagueis' upon Damask's death, it only makes note that Sidious increased in power.

Please read what I say so I don't have to repeat myself. The text notes that Sidious became more powerful, and other sources confirm his superiority. The novel's claim that he grew more powerful is just a reasonable basis for that. Justification, if you will, since they were only about equal before that.



Alright.



Traya would suggest that Nihilus isn't Sith, but we know he is.

The quote I'm referring to is a codex entry, which isn't limited to character information at all. In fact it frequently discloses character backstories that the protagonists would have no way of finding out.



By hiding from the known galaxy? Sidious was under their nose, lol.



Too bad Ovair was hiding himself from randoms, not the Jedi during their Golden Age.



Revan being hindered by a nexus isn't exactly a showing that puts him up there with the best. smile

Seriously, though, Vitiate wrecked him with Lightning. Revan only ever pushed Vitiate back with either his lightsaber or when Vitiate was distracted.



The fact that Sheev steamrolled them means that it isn't really a valid comparison, lol.

Where is it stated that the fight without NPC's was incredibly difficult? Because all the protags would be far greater than the team with the NPC's, which was already a loss for an amped Revan.



Maul/Savage-tier.



Beating lots and lots of fodder is more of a stamina feat than anything else.



You might think that; I couldn't possibly comment. smile

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by SunRazer
Savage-tier.
False.

Worse yet, a lie.

SunRazer
Edited to Maul/Savage-tier. Making Force users across the galaxy uncomfortable is exactly he said, and that's what Maul's revival did.

Stop being dramatic, by the way.

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by SunRazer
Stop being dramatic, by the way.

Can't take away a man's MO.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by SunRazer
Edited to Maul/Savage-tier. Making Force users across the galaxy uncomfortable is exactly he said, and that's what Maul's revival did.

Stop being dramatic, by the way.
Liar. Revan's presence was constantly growing and affecting the flow of the galaxy itself.

Maul's revival was the same as like the destruction of Alderaan or another sudden and then fleeing disturbance.

The only one's who sensed Opress' growing strength was Dooku, who had ties with Opress.

darthbane77
Originally posted by SunRazer
Please read what I say so I don't have to repeat myself. The text notes that Sidious became more powerful, and other sources confirm his superiority. The novel's claim that he grew more powerful is just a reasonable basis for that. Justification, if you will, since they were only about equal before that.



Alright.



Traya would suggest that Nihilus isn't Sith, but we know he is.

The quote I'm referring to is a codex entry, which isn't limited to character information at all. In fact it frequently discloses character backstories that the protagonists would have no way of finding out.



By hiding from the known galaxy? Sidious was under their nose, lol.



Too bad Ovair was hiding himself from randoms, not the Jedi during their Golden Age.



Revan being hindered by a nexus isn't exactly a showing that puts him up there with the best. smile

Seriously, though, Vitiate wrecked him with Lightning. Revan only ever pushed Vitiate back with either his lightsaber or when Vitiate was distracted.



The fact that Sheev steamrolled them means that it isn't really a valid comparison, lol.

Where is it stated that the fight without NPC's was incredibly difficult? Because all the protags would be far greater than the team with the NPC's, which was already a loss for an amped Revan.



Maul/Savage-tier.



Beating lots and lots of fodder is more of a stamina feat than anything else.



You might think that; I couldn't possibly comment. smile
Alright, well provide those sources and I might concede the point. Otherwise I'll assuming you're blowing smoke up my ass.

Nihilus' status as a Sith is arguable, he doesn't even see the galaxy like normal people see it anymore. He's a pure Dark Side entity driven only by his hunger, he cares nothing for the Sith teachings, he only uses them to decrease the time between buffet visits.

I know it was a codex entry, and I also covered it pretty well. I figured you'd make that exact argument, which is why I included by statement about it being up to date only with what the player knows up until starting KOTFE. It's more of a "Previously on SWTOR" than anything else.

Sure Vitiate was hiding, but the Jedi suspected something was out there, the fact they had no idea what it was and had no evidence whatsoever to suggest he was there means he was hiding from them pretty well.

No names or not, Ovair hid from the Jedi Order, right under their noses. As in WITHIN the Jedi temple, a Light Side Nexus. Which likely would have been more difficult to do than hiding from the Senate building. Also, Sidious and Plagueis ritual shifting the balance of the Force made it easier for him to hide in the first place. So he was really only able to hide from them thanks to Plagueis' help, he didn't do it solely through his own power. And the Dark Side's power grew even further upon the start of the Clone Wars, which would have made it even easier for him to hide than it already was. Ovair had no help and was able to hide his Dark Side power from the entirety of that time's Jedi Order while on a nexus of Light Side power for decades. When you think of it like that, Sheev's feat gets way more unimpressive.

Revan being hindered is what makes the feat impressive, lol. He wasn't at full power and yet he managed to send Vitiate flying backwards on a DS Nexus where Vitiate would have had power above his already immense norm, and then Revan was able to almost completely negate lightning that was "infinitely more powerful" than Nyriss'; who's lightning was already powerful enough to turn people into charred husks or ash, and Revan negated so much of it that he escaped with only 2nd or 3rd degree burns when his ashes should have been turned into ashes.

The comparison is valid when the Force using protags have feats on par with shit that some of the PT council have, and then considering the fact that there were more of them fighting Revan than that went to fight Sheev.

It's not outright stated that it was incredibly difficult, but we can guess from what Bioware devs said that it was. Revan is compared alongside Vitiate as the most powerful being in the entirety of the Old Republic era, making Revan second only to Vitiate as of SoR. And, while game mechanics are not solid as evidence, they do give minor outlines of how something would have played out in-universe. As I said in my RT for HK-47 "I want to make a note though. I know the gameplay portions I use are heavily reliant on game mechanics to make the games more fun to play. However, they're still good evidence, as it's only logical to assume that if a character is chosen to be a boss fight that they're obviously supposed to be a challenge or a threat to the characters in-universe." And by this rather solid logic, and the fact that Bioware said that Revan was the most difficult operation boss in the game to that point, would imply that the in-universe fight with Revan would have been highly difficult for the strike team. All that on top of Revan being stated as far more powerful than any one of the protags, and then scaling him from his other feats and seeing that none of the protags stack up, it becomes common sense that Revan would have posed an immense threat to them.

Impressive nonetheless, and Savage didn't have the same effects on the minds of people like Lana that Revan had.

Not when those "fodder" are stated as being master of lightsaber combat and are not only attacking in groups, but are also being amped by the Star Forge, one of the most potent Dark Side Nexus' in history.

Oh come on, be honest. It's obvious I've improved at debating since I started on CV as well as this site.

SunRazer
Originally posted by darthbane77
Alright, well provide those sources and I might concede the point. Otherwise I'll assuming you're blowing smoke up my ass.

I told you to check my TPM RT. I hate having to format lots of quotes over on CV, so you'll just have to deal with this:





It's not arguable. Objective sources label him as a Sith. That's the end of it.



SWTOR codex entries have never been limited to player knowledge. As I said, they reveal character backstories that the player has no way of finding out otherwise.



Nobody had any idea what was out there except Revan, Malak, Surik and Kreia.



Prove that it's a "light side nexus", which I haven't seen proof of existence for.

Sidious' feats don't go way more unimpressive at all. Yoda is extremely powerful and perceptive - moreso than any of those Jedi in the Timeline video. Hiding from him is a much better showing than hiding from the Masters in Ovair's time.



It was a joke. You mentioned that Revan was hindered but forgot to mention the actual (supposed) feat of contending with Vitiate. I could tell what you were trying to say - I was just messing with you.



Revan only pushed Vitiate back when Vitiate was distracted with a futile effort to try and dominate Revan's mind. Revan was wrecked, lol. He doesn't need to be incinerated for him to have been curbed. If you're left on the floor unable to move, then you've been curbed. That's all there is to it.



It's not valid when Revan loses and Sidious slaughters, though.



The thing is, if Revan lost to an inferior team, he's not providing the same level of challenge to a much stronger team.



I meant Maul, sorry. But yeah, this doesn't put Revan up there with Sidious, who was generating weather storms across the galaxy just by appearing as a hologram.



They're fodder compared to these elites. Which is why when the elites tear through them, it's more to do with stamina than anything else.



It's called plausible deniability in case you start to decline, lol.

Seriously, though? Yeah, everybody here has improved over the last few months. Except Ant. He's like an overcooked fish on Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares that keeps getting cooked more and more because the amateur chefs don't know how to turn off the gas. smile

DarthAnt66
DB77 trashing Nova.

BTW, Nova, if you ask around, a lot of the guys will say you significantly declined in debating.

I don't want to name names, but hopefully some will come-forward and thumb up.

SunRazer
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
DB77 trashing Nova.

BTW, Nova, if you ask around, a lot of the guys will say you significantly declined in debating.

I don't want to name names, but hopefully some will come-forward and thumb up.

They've said it to me openly, lol. I don't really care though, I don't debate for prestige like you.

On the other hand, you probably cried over the flak you got in those threads, lol.

DarthAnt66
I don't debate for prestige. I already have prestige. I debate to keep it.

SunRazer
Not after those threads, you don't. smile

DarthAnt66
What the hell are "those threads"?

The one I'm raping you in ATM?

quanchi112
Sunrazer the same guy who won't debate anyone in a judged debate. Quit trolling ant, Sunrazer. You have no class and no balls.

DarthAnt66
thumb up

SunRazer
Those threads you made in the EU Discussion board that consisted of you having your shit pushed in and even your friends turning against you, lmfao.

You just love to be dramatic and spam insults and then claim you're raping, lmfao.

DarthAnt66
The Plagueis stuff? I concede that Plagueis was indeed involved in the mental war, but ultimately it took the combined efforts of half-a-dozen individual's to bring down my argument. It was effectively Revan vs a coalition strike team. My reformed argument concerning Revan, and the parity found with it and the Plagueis feat, stands though. No one has yet tried to form a rebuttal to it.

quanchi112
Why won't Sunrazer agree to a judged debate with anyone. He is yellow.

darthbane77
Originally posted by SunRazer
I told you to check my TPM RT. I hate having to format lots of quotes over on CV, so you'll just have to deal with this:





It's not arguable. Objective sources label him as a Sith. That's the end of it.



SWTOR codex entries have never been limited to player knowledge. As I said, they reveal character backstories that the player has no way of finding out otherwise.



Nobody had any idea what was out there except Revan, Malak, Surik and Kreia.



Prove that it's a "light side nexus", which I haven't seen proof of existence for.

Sidious' feats don't go way more unimpressive at all. Yoda is extremely powerful and perceptive - moreso than any of those Jedi in the Timeline video. Hiding from him is a much better showing than hiding from the Masters in Ovair's time.



It was a joke. You mentioned that Revan was hindered but forgot to mention the actual (supposed) feat of contending with Vitiate. I could tell what you were trying to say - I was just messing with you.



Revan only pushed Vitiate back when Vitiate was distracted with a futile effort to try and dominate Revan's mind. Revan was wrecked, lol. He doesn't need to be incinerated for him to have been curbed. If you're left on the floor unable to move, then you've been curbed. That's all there is to it.



It's not valid when Revan loses and Sidious slaughters, though.



The thing is, if Revan lost to an inferior team, he's not providing the same level of challenge to a much stronger team.



I meant Maul, sorry. But yeah, this doesn't put Revan up there with Sidious, who was generating weather storms across the galaxy just by appearing as a hologram.



They're fodder compared to these elites. Which is why when the elites tear through them, it's more to do with stamina than anything else.



It's called plausible deniability in case you start to decline, lol.

Seriously, though? Yeah, everybody here has improved over the last few months. Except Ant. He's like an overcooked fish on Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares that keeps getting cooked more and more because the amateur chefs don't know how to turn off the gas. smile None of those quotes prove that Sidious was > Plagueis post Hego's death. Simply because there was no fight, there was no test of power or skill to prove either one's superiority, and then when we consider Luceno's quote it becomes obvious that Plagueis was superior to Sidious, at least in a combative sense. And before you bring up the "Sidious was only superior after Plagueis died" I'm pretty sure I addressed that already.

There are also sources saying he isn't Sith, and then when we look at how Nihilus acts in-universe, when we examine his motivations, personality, etc, none of that is anything like a Sith outside of his using the Dark Side. So while there are sources saying Nihilus is a Sith, none of those are supported, where-as the ones stating he ISN'T Sith, are supported by the character himself.

The codex entry, from what I remember of it, literally just summarizes what's been up with Vitiate and friends up to that point, which is pre-starting KOTFE. So it's entirely relegated to knowledge that the player already possess while getting any new players up to speed.

The Jedi Council, during the Mandalorian Wars, suspected something in the shadows that spurred the Mando's aggression; they knew something was there but their vision was clouded. Much like the vision of the Council in the PT era.

The mountain on which the Jedi Temple rests is states as being a Force Nexus, while it doesn't specify "light side" it's likely safe to assume it was light side considering the mountain was the site of the JEDI Temple, meaning a **** ton of light side energy saturating the mountain via the thousands of Jedi.

Except that Yoda is ONE Jedi, and no matter how perceptive he was, he was still blinded through the Force by the immense DS energy in the galaxy courtesy of the previously mentioned ritual and the subsequent war several years down the road. Sidious wouldn't have needed to try very to hard to hide is the point, where-as Ovair would have needed to do so when hiding within the heart of the Jedi Order itself.

Ah, sorry. I didn't catch on that you were joking, my mistake.

Except that Revan wasn't left immobilized, he got up shortly afterwards and was was ready to fight again.

It's valid when the strike team Sidious slaughtered was vastly inferior to either of the strike teams that Revan faced barring the presence of Windu, none of the Jedi in the B-Team were equals to any of the Force users on either Strike Team that Revan faced (again, barring Windu).

That's the beauty of it, the first strike team isn't THAT much better than the second one. Based on hype, Marr and Shan should be pretty close in strength to any of the Force using protags. Not super close in strength, but still pretty comparable.

Revan's effect on the minds of Force users was still more potent than Maul's return was, by quite a lot actually.

When compared to elites, sure those Sith are fodder. But not in the context of how it happened. They still would have been a danger to Revan while being hindered on a DS nexus and being heavily outnumberd. Keeping in mind that this was anewly reformed Revan who had his Force powers back for maybe a year by the time the attack on the SF happened, so he was nowhere near his prime at the time and was still able to push through odds that would make most Jedi cry.

"He's like an overcooked fish on Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares that keeps getting cooked more and more because the amateur chefs don't know how to turn off the gas." No offense to Ant, but that is pretty funny, haha.

SunRazer
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The Plagueis stuff? I concede that Plagueis was indeed involved in the mental war, but ultimately it took the combined efforts of half-a-dozen individual's to bring down my argument. It was effectively Revan vs a coalition strike team. My reformed argument concerning Revan, and the parity found with it and the Plagueis feat, stands though. No one has yet tried to form a rebuttal to it.

It's more than just the Plagueis stuff. Also, the amount of people against you just tells how you disrespected your argument was, lol.

Anyways, Plagueis shits on Revan since he was near-death and could still atomize armored non-Force sensitives with his Force Waves, whereas Revan/Vaylin etc. couldn't in perfect health Happy Dance

DarthAnt66
Well that's the only thing I concede too. The rest is your bias, which we all know is strong and bad.

Revan can disintegrate Darth Nyriss, which is far more impressive than that.

quanchi112
Sunrazer and his feminine excuses to try to talk his way out of a judged debate. No balls no heart.

UCanShootMyNova
thumb up

DarthAnt66
thumb up

SunRazer
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well that's the only thing I concede too. The rest is your bias, which we all know is strong and bad.

Revan can disintegrate Darth Nyriss, which is far more impressive than that.

That's not TK. That's redirecting somebody else's Lightning. We're discussing Force Waves smile

DarthAnt66
OK. Revan's more powerful than Nihilus, who can disintegrate people with TK.

gg

darthbane77
Stahp Ant, I wanna be the one that crushes SunRazer. lol. @ SunRazer, will respond to any of your further counters tomorrow...well technically later today, but I digress. Right now Ima go play me some Mass Effect 2.

SunRazer
Originally posted by darthbane77
None of those quotes prove that Sidious was > Plagueis post Hego's death.

They do. That's part of the whole "culmination" and "most powerful of the Banite Sith" stuff. Then there's the quote about Chancellor Palpatine being the most powerful Sith Master ever.



So? You don't need a fight to prove everything.



Author quotes aren't to be considered, as I said.

The wording of the comment "undermine" suggests that Plagueis would win through something unorthodox as opposed to overpowering Palpatine, by the way.



You didn't, really.



Which source states that he isn't Sith? Kreia's opinion?

Nihilus doesn't care for Sith philosophy - but he's titled as a Sith Lord. Therefore, he's a Sith.



The codex repeatedly states information beyond what the player knows when discussing other characters - ie. enemies like Tarnis or Praven or some such. It's not limited to character knowledge at all.



That doesn't mean they knew there was a Sith Lord who did it.



Yes, it is a Force nexus. But no source has ever established the existence of a "light side nexus". It's up to you to prove that it is a light side nexus. Nowhere have havens of the Jedi ever been stated to be LS nexuses - only Force nexuses. So why would this be different?



Sources state that Sidious is just so strong that he couldn't be sensed, and that was the case when Plagueis tried to sense him as well.

But the mental war thing is another feat for TPM Palpatine that I could've mentioned earlier (I avoided it due to the circumstances) in response to your "Revan affecting the galaxy" stuff.



He only got up after being saved twice by T3 and Meetra. T3 in particular stopped Vitiate's Lightning from killing him.



Well, you did just say they were equals, but this is better.

It's not valid when we don't know how Revan approached the fight. he didn't charge headlong into them and start blitzing. They didn't fight even remotely the same. Sidious didn't even use the Force offensively. The comparison doesn't make much sense.



Well, apparently HoT was already above Shan by Act I/early Act II.

That aside, you've only got Marr and Shan. None of the others compare.



They both just sensed huge disturbances. TOR had the fancier wording, that's basically it.



They're fodder compared to Revan, seeing as Revan was able to beat Malak under terrible circumstances right afterwards.

DarthAnt66
The fact they're fodder to Revan shows how good Revan is, lmfao.

darthbane77

darthbane77
To bring special attention to this quote

"The Force roils and convulses like never before. I reached out to study its peculiar activity, and in turn it showed me what is to come. You stand on a moon, defiantly, before one who is not one. You do not stand alone, but you fail all the same."

―Spindrall (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

Not the beginning "The Force roils and convulses like never before." This would imply that the Force is, at this time undergoing a change unlike anything seen before that point in time. Which would also imply a galaxy wide effect on the Force, something felt by all Force users, a potential shift in the balance of the Force even; something only Vitiate and the combined ability of Plagueis and TPM Sids were able to achieve. That's another potential feat for Revan that places him on Sheev's level.

And this quote.

"The Force moves through the Emperor's Hand in a manner that few others experience. For us, the Force is an intricate tapestry woven into our very essence. That tapestry has become flawed. I speak of a persistent disturbance. A cyst, dense and tangled and unpleasant. It began small and nearly imperceptible but has been growing ever larger... the source of this basal disturbance is of the gravest concern to us..."

―The Emperor's Hand (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

Revan's presence is described as a flaw in the Force, an cyst continually growing in strength and potency. Yet another example, and more proof, that the effect Revan had on the Force was far deeper and more dangerous than almost anybody on this forum cares to admit.

Ursumeles
So...I am the only person who sides with Nova in this debate? :mmm:

darthbane77
Originally posted by Ursumeles
So...I am the only person who sides with Nova in this debate? :mmm: Join me Urs, my ascension to godhood is inevitable. lol


Seriously though, if I continue to do this well in this debate I'm hoping to get some more respect around here, lol.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by darthbane77
Join me Urs, my ascension to godhood is inevitable. lol


Seriously though, if I continue to do this well in this debate I'm hoping to get some more respect around here, lol.
Lol.

Yeah, you do a good job tbh smile

darthbane77
thumb up

Ursumeles
Dooku > Malgus btw thumb up

darthbane77
Nah.

Ursumeles
CaV?

darthbane77
Maybe.

SunRazer
I can't even use the quote function for your post, so I'll have to reply tomorrow.

MythLord
DarthBane69, plz don't be the new Syndicate. Learn to quote properly.

quanchi112
Sunrazer, just once again forfeited the debate but not before saying quotes don't count despite using that in 99 percent of his debates. One of the biggest hypocrites out there who also happens to lack a spine.

Beniboybling
Looks like quan's got your number, Nova.

UCanShootMyNova
Nova's downfall has been just as spectacular as I hoped.

darthbane77
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Nova's downfall has been just as spectacular as I hoped. Happy to oblige, lol.

darthbane77
Originally posted by SunRazer
I can't even use the quote function for your post, so I'll have to reply tomorrow. I tried editing it last night and I couldn't for some reason, so that comment was being a dick to me as well actually.

Ursumeles
You can edit only 15 minutes after the post. May taht was the error?

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Ursumeles
You can edit only 15 minutes after the post. May taht was the error?

I really hate this limitation. <.< I still don't get why it's a thing.

darthbane77
Originally posted by Ursumeles
You can edit only 15 minutes after the post. May taht was the error? No, I tried editing it like 5 minutes after posting it. I'm just leaving it up to a glitch or some shit.

Ursumeles
K' I think ai know what you mean, lol.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
I really hate this limitation. <.< I still don't get why it's a thing.
thumb up

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by Zenwolf
I really hate this limitation. <.< I still don't get why it's a thing.

So you can't pussy out.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
So you can't pussy out.

Or can't change errors in your post. Or add information.

Beniboybling
The 15 minute limit is fair when you consider that people could falsify their posts.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Beniboybling
The 15 minute limit is fair when you consider that people could falsify their posts.

But someone could do that as they are making a post anyway. I mean I guess yeah, you could also do the same with grammar errors and adding information within the time limit sure.

But if you come across new information after the 15 minutes is up, you'd have to make a whole new post just to add the info to add to the previous post, which if there's multiple pages finding the new info would be rather time consuming and could get lost within the pages. You also wouldn't be able to correct errors if you didn't catch them the first time and just left your first post as is.

I get the limit if looking at it like that I suppose.

UCanShootMyNova
It's true. KMC is a shit site.

TenebrousWay
Originally posted by Beniboybling
The 15 minute limit is fair when you consider that people could falsify their posts.

Did KMC reach such level?

SunRazer
The inability to use the quote function is frustrating, but the incessant mockery here is a suitable drive for me to continue this debate, lol.



Reasonable (ie. repeatedly stated or well-supported) accolades take precedence over feats. Feats don't take precedence over accolades.

This is an interesting double standard though, since I recall you supporting the Revan >>> Nihilus quotes when Revan doesn't have any showings of a superior caliber. Secondly, Sidious' feats don't make his accolades of superiority over Plagueis unreasonable at all, especially since Sidious' upper limit isn't even established through showings.



You mean Bane has comparable feats when you cite Sidious' lower-end or more effortless showings that don't actually display the level of power he's supposed to have, and then compare to it Bane's?

Show me Bane blitzing three of the greatest swordsmen in Jedi history. Show me Bane bending lightsaber blades with Lightning. Show me Bane generating weather storms across the galaxy just by appearing as a hologram. Show me Bane being able to tear apart buildings. Show me Bane generating Wormholes that rip the fabric of time and space and can devastate the surfaces of worlds. Show me Bane generating Lightning Storms with enough precision to avoid specific individuals whilst striking others. Show me Bane blowing up enemy lightsabers with a gesture. Show me Bane hurting Vader-caliber Force users across the galaxy with telepathy. Show me Bane telepathically enslaving a twenty-billion populace and continuously leeching life from them.



And yet Mandalorian Wars Revan doesn't have a single feat on Nihilus' level. Again, Sidious doesn't have an established upper limit at this point with respect to feats that would necessitate a "contradiction" to the accolades.



I know that, which is why I didn't bring it up. Stop repeating yourself.



Well, the text itself implies as much, but it's from the perspective of Sidious, so I'm sure you'll consider it invalid on those grounds.



No. I don't take author opinions on fights as gospel, ever. Even their clarifications of their own stories, which valued, aren't gospel. They can be worth something, but they're not law.

It's funny that you accuse me of double standards when not taking author quotes, even though I have a blanket policy on them, whereas you have completely subjective quotas for quotes that you accept and dismiss any that don't align with your argument.



lol So you can choose what the meaning of the quote is without having to discuss it with me, despite admitting that it's vague? Hilarious.

It's also hilarious that you're taking this quote despite this not exactly being proven with feats. Again, Sidious doesn't have an established upper limit as far as feats go.



So that's a concession.



Untrue. Kreia says he cares nothing for Sith teachings, but refers to him as a "Lord of the Sith". She never once says he isn't Sith.



Sorry, but the player has no way of knowing Tarnis or Praven's backstory. They don't learn about the Padawan that Praven killed. The fact that they know the characters doesn't mean they know everything about those characters, which is what I said before. I really don't like having to repeat myself.



Prove it.



Not really, and it's more puzzling that no source ever establishes the existence of a light side nexus, not even for the Temple (Malgus/Anakin and other dark siders who march into the Temple never feel weakened or anything either). TFU is a pretty stupid source, but I'm willing to take evidence of a LS nexus there if you have such evidence.



No, but it was a showing of his raw power.



I meant Palpatine and Plagueis imbalancing the Force.



He wouldn't, if not for external assistance, lol. That's like citing Obi-Wan and Anakin's ability to stand up again after Dooku wounded them in AotC, which we know they only did with external medical assistance and Yoda arriving in time to stop Dooku from doing anything else. Now, Revan did heal himself here, but the point was that the Tutaminis/Lightning contest left him unable to stand - he required an extensive period of time afterwards to heal himself to stand back up, which was only allowed by the interventions of T3 and Meetra. So what I said was correct.



Right, so that's not how Sidious approached them. He didn't start with a Wave.



EDIT: I'll respond to this later. Don't have the time for an extended response right now.



I did debate this point before, but you don't think Satele would suggest that HoT was stronger than her unless she actually believed it? lol

SunRazer
Those are literally just fancy ways of saying "it's a disturbance in the Force". And we know that Revan's one grew gradually.



You can't use circular logic. Revan's good because those SF Sith were fodder to him, and those SF Sith were obviously strong because they were fodder to Revan. lol

Yes, it's a good feat, but not that overwhelming. As I said, it's mostly a stamina feat.

SunRazer
Well, but still below them.



She's not comparable to any of the Force using protags.



There's still another four protags, who shit on these characters.



I don't believe it. A hindered novel Revan was able to heal himself from much worse. I don't see why an amped SoR Revan couldn't heal himself from this.

darthbane77
Originally posted by SunRazer
The inability to use the quote function is frustrating, but the incessant mockery here is a suitable drive for me to continue this debate, lol.



Reasonable (ie. repeatedly stated or well-supported) accolades take precedence over feats. Feats don't take precedence over accolades.

This is an interesting double standard though, since I recall you supporting the Revan >>> Nihilus quotes when Revan doesn't have any showings of a superior caliber. Secondly, Sidious' feats don't make his accolades of superiority over Plagueis unreasonable at all, especially since Sidious' upper limit isn't even established through showings.



You mean Bane has comparable feats when you cite Sidious' lower-end or more effortless showings that don't actually display the level of power he's supposed to have, and then compare to it Bane's?

Show me Bane blitzing three of the greatest swordsmen in Jedi history. Show me Bane bending lightsaber blades with Lightning. Show me Bane generating weather storms across the galaxy just by appearing as a hologram. Show me Bane being able to tear apart buildings. Show me Bane generating Wormholes that rip the fabric of time and space and can devastate the surfaces of worlds. Show me Bane generating Lightning Storms with enough precision to avoid specific individuals whilst striking others. Show me Bane blowing up enemy lightsabers with a gesture. Show me Bane hurting Vader-caliber Force users across the galaxy with telepathy. Show me Bane telepathically enslaving a twenty-billion populace and continuously leeching life from them.



And yet Mandalorian Wars Revan doesn't have a single feat on Nihilus' level. Again, Sidious doesn't have an established upper limit at this point with respect to feats that would necessitate a "contradiction" to the accolades.



I know that, which is why I didn't bring it up. Stop repeating yourself.



Well, the text itself implies as much, but it's from the perspective of Sidious, so I'm sure you'll consider it invalid on those grounds.



No. I don't take author opinions on fights as gospel, ever. Even their clarifications of their own stories, which valued, aren't gospel. They can be worth something, but they're not law.

It's funny that you accuse me of double standards when not taking author quotes, even though I have a blanket policy on them, whereas you have completely subjective quotas for quotes that you accept and dismiss any that don't align with your argument.



lol So you can choose what the meaning of the quote is without having to discuss it with me, despite admitting that it's vague? Hilarious.

It's also hilarious that you're taking this quote despite this not exactly being proven with feats. Again, Sidious doesn't have an established upper limit as far as feats go.



So that's a concession.



Untrue. Kreia says he cares nothing for Sith teachings, but refers to him as a "Lord of the Sith". She never once says he isn't Sith.



Sorry, but the player has no way of knowing Tarnis or Praven's backstory. They don't learn about the Padawan that Praven killed. The fact that they know the characters doesn't mean they know everything about those characters, which is what I said before. I really don't like having to repeat myself.



Prove it.



Not really, and it's more puzzling that no source ever establishes the existence of a light side nexus, not even for the Temple (Malgus/Anakin and other dark siders who march into the Temple never feel weakened or anything either). TFU is a pretty stupid source, but I'm willing to take evidence of a LS nexus there if you have such evidence.



No, but it was a showing of his raw power.



I meant Palpatine and Plagueis imbalancing the Force.



He wouldn't, if not for external assistance, lol. That's like citing Obi-Wan and Anakin's ability to stand up again after Dooku wounded them in AotC, which we know they only did with external medical assistance and Yoda arriving in time to stop Dooku from doing anything else. Now, Revan did heal himself here, but the point was that the Tutaminis/Lightning contest left him unable to stand - he required an extensive period of time afterwards to heal himself to stand back up, which was only allowed by the interventions of T3 and Meetra. So what I said was correct.



Right, so that's not how Sidious approached them. He didn't start with a Wave.



EDIT: I'll respond to this later. Don't have the time for an extended response right now.



I did debate this point before, but you don't think Satele would suggest that HoT was stronger than her unless she actually believed it? lol Was I mocking you? If it seemed like that then I apologize, I don't mock people that I hold with high respect. I was just busting your balls.

I hold feats above accolades, as accolades can be fallacious; feats cannot.

I jump around a lot concerning the Revan>Nihilus quote honestly, at one point I'll have more stock in it than at another given time and vice verse. Revan's feats are comparable at least though, and I think powerscaling supports the possibility of Revan's superiority. Though I'll admit that Nihilus likely isn't very far behind Revan, they're likely pretty close to each other. Nihilus is one of the characters I currently hold in the same league as Caedus and Sidious, alongside Revan.

I have examples to counter two of those arguments. Bane collapsing the Rakatan Temple, and using a Force storm (the lightning variant, not the wormholes, obviously) as just an apprentice; when it's stated to take Sith Masters years to be able to use it as well as Bane used at that moment.

I agree that Mando Wars Revan isn't on par with Nihilus, his later incarnations (Reborn and Resurrected) however, are entirely different matters. As they have feats and powerscaling that it at least comparable.

Likely the most labor intensive thing Sidious did up to this point was his ritual with Plagueis, and it's reasonable to assume Sidious likely contributed, let's say half (or less since Plagueis was unquestionably the more powerful one at the time), of the energy required to perform it. It can be assumed Sidious wouldn't be able to do it on his own, hence why Plagueis had to help. We can use that as a waypoint for Sidious' upper limit. So his upper limit would be below what Plagueis was capable of, making Plagueis still the superior of the two based on his feats and inferences that can be made through the performance of the ritual.

Fair enough, I'll try not to bring that up again.

And you'd be right. Sith are inherently self absorbed, any statement that any Sith says about themselves is to be taken with a grain of salt.

I suppose that's fair. I don't dismiss and accept whatever suits me, I look at the quotes and see if they're supported by other sources, feats and accolades. If they are supported I accept them, if they aren't, I don't.

I covered the upper limit argument above here somewhere in this comment. Yes the quote is somewhat vague, I'm simply stating what I think the most likely meaning is based on the impression I got when I first read it.

To that point maybe (which I don't think I remember what it was) but if that was my response it was likely an unimportant point, one I didn't feel was worth arguing. So sure, take a free point.

She says he cares nothing for Sith teachings, she says he no longer sees the galaxy as normal Force users do. She implies pretty well that he's not Sith, the title of Sith Lord for Nihilus is really just because no better term exists.

Those are minor details, the basic purpose of the entry is a recap. It provides little to no new information at all.

"He said there was a war coming. That it was waiting out in the unknown regions, in the dark, waiting for us to destroy each other." Said, I think, by Carth in KOTOR II. If a mere soldier like Carth knows vaguely about the Sith Empire in hiding, would you think the Jedi Council had AT LEAST an idea that SOMEATHING was out there, they said once that they felt something was behind the Mandalorian's aggression, so they obviously suspected something.

"I,too, lost a padawan on Malachor. Not to the battle, but to the alternative-to the teachings that Revan brought from the unknown regions."- said by Zez Kai Ell. And there it is, they knew of the teachings Revan brought from the Unknown Regions, the knew he found something out there that turned him to the Dark Side.

Galen Marek states that Felucia is strong in the Force and Juno states that the Felucians are more organized and powerful than record indicated. Galen states he suspects the hand of a Jedi behind it all. Now, I will say this source is pretty debatable. But everything Galen encountered on his way to Shaak-Ti was allied with the Jedi Master and arrayed against Galen. Suggesting they had a strong connection to the light side, which could imply that , at least a small area, of Felucia was a Nexus thanks to Shaak-Ti. And if that's the case then the mere presence of somebody like Yoda in the Jedi temple for over 800 years should have reasonably effected the alignment of that already potent nexus in a similar way.

Yes, raw power, which is the same as potential. So unless the argument is that Sidious was as powerful at a younger age as he was as his full potential self (DE) there's really no point worth being made here.

Ah. While definitely an excellent feat, I won't argue that it's one of their collective best, at least for the time, the feat isn't unprecedented.

What you said was correct to an extent. You originally implied that Revan would have been entirely incapable of getting back up, which is entirely false as per what happens in the novel itself. Outside circumstances aside, Revan was able to get back up. That's the point I'm trying to make here.

The circumstances didn't call for Sidious needing to unleash a wave, he has fewer targets to focus on, all in a tight space where he could easily maneuver around them and kill them with ease. Windu was the only one he even considered a threat, which shows how powerful the rest of the B-team is in comparison to anybody of Windu's caliber or above. The circumstances for Revan were somewhat different. A Force Wave was the best option for him due to the area being a wide open space with 7 or 8 opponents all standing spaced apart. Bum-rushing either strike team would have been foolish.

Fair enough.

I think she was selling herself short and outlining that the HoT was the future of the Jedi Order. Like my comparison to Anakin's accolades suggests.

darthbane77
Originally posted by SunRazer
Those are literally just fancy ways of saying "it's a disturbance in the Force". And we know that Revan's one grew gradually.



You can't use circular logic. Revan's good because those SF Sith were fodder to him, and those SF Sith were obviously strong because they were fodder to Revan. lol

Yes, it's a good feat, but not that overwhelming. As I said, it's mostly a stamina feat. That's hardcore underrating right there. The quotes are pretty clear that the disturbance Revan caused was more than something minor like you're making it out to be. It was considered, even by the Sith, to be something potentially very dangerous.

I worded my last point concerning this somewhat poorly. The Sith on the SF are stated as master duelists, which is what potentially makes them deadly. The fact that they were stationed on the SF with Malak himself gives this quote a little weight. What makes the feat good for Revan is that they were as skilled as they were, and that they attacked in numbers while Revan was weakened by the SF and they were amped. It is a great stamina feat, but it's also an impressive combat feat as well. One that very few in the grand arc of Star Wars could replicate.

Also, ignore the pic I posted in the above response. It's a quote I already used in the same response farther up, not sure why I posted it as a pic as well.

Ursumeles
DB77, DON'T BE THE NEW SYN PLZ!

darthbane77
Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, but still below them.



She's not comparable to any of the Force using protags.



There's still another four protags, who shit on these characters.



I don't believe it. A hindered novel Revan was able to heal himself from much worse. I don't see why an amped SoR Revan couldn't heal himself from this. I said as much already, that doesn't change that they are still very impressive in their own rights.

I said as much already, but she's still very powerful. And her showings are enough to solidify her as a powerful addition to the strike team she was on.

They don't "shit" on them, but they are solidly superior. With the exception of Shae Vizsla, she's easily comparable to any of the non-Force using protags. And as I already stated, weaker team for a weakened Revan. Had Revan been at full strength against the second team he very likely would have won.

There's nothing to suggest Revan was amped, the entirety of Yavin IV wasn't a nexus. Any "amp" Revan received was negligible, as none of the Dark Side characters made any reference to feeling stronger on Yavin and no light side characters made reference to feeling weaker. So there likely wasn't an amp for anybody. The fact that Revan lost to them and first and then was able to come back for more almost immediately afterwards is incredibly impressive, despite your nonsensical opinion to the contrary, which seems to be what you're implying.

darthbane77
Originally posted by Ursumeles
DB77, DON'T BE THE NEW SYN PLZ! How do you mean?

UCanShootMyNova
Walls of text.

darthbane77
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Walls of text. Ah. But walls of text are fun, lol.

UCanShootMyNova
Yes.

SunRazer
No, it refers to Syn not being able to quote, lol. I'll have a response up for you shortly.

darthbane77
I've been using quotes, half of one of my recent responses was quotes.

thumb up

Probably won't get back to you until later.

SunRazer
No, you quote, but not specifically. I have to go back to check what you're responding to constantly, which slows my progress considerably. Whereas I quote the relevant sections I'm responding to, and respond to just that, then move on to another section, etc.

SunRazer
Originally posted by darthbane77
Was I mocking you? If it seemed like that then I apologize, I don't mock people that I hold with high respect. I was just busting your balls.

Not you, the others. Although Beni and Syn are trolling and Quanchi's angry about the size of his belly after I impregnated him in the other thread.



Actually, they can. And they can definitely have circumstances.



Powerscaling doesn't put Revan above Nihilus, and Nihilus' feats are easily, easily better.



Which he did on an immense nexus and whilst gathering up energies as Kas'im spoke.

He also only tore down the supports. The rest of the Temple just collapsed from... having no supports.



How is that in league with Sidious' showings? Before receiving any training in the Force, Sidious crushed bulkheads and withstood being slashed at with lightsabers for weeks whilst crawling over tundras without food, water or sleep all that time.



"At least comparable" isn't even close to "far more powerful". And it's MW Revan that's referred to in the quotes. So I don't know how you can be on the fence about it.



That was well before 32 BBY, though, and Sidious notes that his powers grew tenfold over the years between 52 BBY and 32 BBY. So no, it's definitely not an upper limit for 32 BBY Sidious.



She says he cares nothing for Sith teachings. But she still calls him a Sith Lord. There's no escaping it.

And Sidious' quotes are clearly intended for all beings held as Sith, not to mention that he has quotes referring to dark side practitioners in general. As I said, there's no escape.



The codex entries for Praven etc. are entirely new information that are completely unheard of in the game story or anything of the sort. As I said, it's absolutely not limited to player knowledge.



Not at all. Revan didn't want the Council to know, obviously, or else he would've just told them about it when he returned from unknown space, instead of starting the Jedi Civil War over it. Revan confiding in close friends doesn't mean anything.



That suggests that Revan found teachings from the Unknown Regions, but they could be lost and then uncovered, not necessarily handed down by an Emperor or anything. In no way did the Jedi suspect the presence of the Sith Emperor, so there's no way they could've sensed him (never mind him being so far away from them, as opposed to Sidious being under their nose).

Whereas the PT Jedi were outright told of Darth Sidious and still failed to sense him.



No, there's nothing about a LS nexus here. And it'd be strange (to say the least) if TFU were the first and only source to mention a LS nexus.



We're not discussing potential. We were actually discussing sensory powers. But since you were courteous enough to drop a point to me because it was getting increasingly irrelevant to the debate at hand, I'll do the same here.



The feat is unprecedented. Just circumstantial.



Obviously we consider the circumstances erm



Not really. If Revan could blitz half of them, there wouldn't be anything foolhardy about charging in.



That doesn't explain the myriad of sources supporting her claim, though.

SunRazer
I didn't say it was minor, just that it's being exaggerated here. And that it doesn't really put him on Sheev's tier.



I'd like to see some quotes for the SF Sith, actually, although of course it does make sense that they're some of the strongest Sith on the time.

It's impressive as a combat feat, but only to an extent. It's mostly stamina. Revan was fighting a few, then another few, then another few, etc.



It doesn't matter if you give them general accolades like "impressive". We're comparing the two teams. Lana isn't even close to any of the protags.



Perhaps, but that's still overall inferiority. We've also yet to consider the already significant disparity between the Force using members.

Add all the disparities together, and you have an absolutely colossal disparity.



It was, and Revan was fighting in the Temples, which were definitely amp locations. And yes, Satele notes how the immeasurably powerful nexus of Oricon was incomparable to the nexus on Yavin IV. So it's huge.

And regardless, even if he wasn't amped, he's still stronger than a hindered novel Revan, who's healed himself from worse. So your point has absolutely no merit whatsoever.

darthbane77
Originally posted by SunRazer
No, you quote, but not specifically. I have to go back to check what you're responding to constantly, which slows my progress considerably. Whereas I quote the relevant sections I'm responding to, and respond to just that, then move on to another section, etc. Oh, I see what you're saying. I'll try to remember to quote specifically from here on out. My apologies for that. I'll respond to you counters later, right now I need to sleep.

SunRazer
Sure.

darthbane77

darthbane77
Based on what was said by those who said it, I don't feel it was at all exaggerated. The text was pretty clear imo.


I'll endeavor to find the quote, I don't have the time right this second to go digging for it, at the moment of typing this particular response.


That doesn't make Lana any less impressive in her own right. Like I said before, weaker team for a weaker version of Revan.


Quote for the nexus? Talking with Ant and others I came under the impression that any amp was minimal at best.

SunRazer
I'll respond when I can.

darthbane77
thumb up OK, whenever is fine, I'm in no hurry.

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