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- The Ancient One is fighting to the best of her abilities, as shown onscreen.
- She's fully rested and healed at the start of each round.
- Win via any means necessary.
- Fight starts in the middle of Central Park.

The Gauntlet:
--------------
Black Widow
Hawkeye
Falcon
Captain America
War Machine
Iron Man
Scarlet Witch
Hulk
Vision
Thor

How far does she get?

Wanda is the only one that might remotely cause an issue. Ancient one should clear. No gauntlet needed. She'll take them all at the sametime.

I don't recall that much offensive powers from the Ancient One. It was mostly h2h combat. She can conjure magical weapons, but I don't think those would hurt guys like Hulk and Thor much. Her biggest advantage is battlefield reorientation, but that would be negated by anyone who could fly. Which means IM, Warmachine and Falcon all have a shot at beating her with enough firepower. Vision and SW can definitely win. Thor and Hulk probably can as well, although they'll have a harder time since their flight/jumping is not as instantaneous as the others.

Well, assuming she can get close, she has some rather exotic abilities as well, like punching someone's astral form out of their body, or mind-raping them by sending them spiraling through reality (two things she did to Dr Strange, during their first encounter). She seemed capable of doing those things pretty much instantly, with little more than a touch.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, assuming she can get close, she has some rather exotic abilities as well, like punching someone's astral form out of their body, or mind-raping them by sending them spiraling through reality (two things she did to Dr Strange, during their first encounter). She seemed capable of doing those things pretty much instantly, with little more than a touch.

Don't know, I usually have trouble using feats that weren't done in combat in these MVF fights. It's the same reason I don't normally use Wanda's mind-hallucination powers in the fights or Dr. Strange's ability to create endless beer.

Not saying she can't do it, just don't know how easy it would be for her to do in combat since she never used it against proper fighting opponents.

Don't see why she can't though. She did the astral punch thing when Dr Strange tried to grab her. And she was yanking him in and out of that spiraling vision thing pretty easily. Mordo still mentioned that his heartrate was rising, to which the Ancient One quickly yanked him back, looked at him, and sent him off again. If she had shown strain/effort in doing those things, I'd question their validity in combat. But she was doing those things with casual ease.

What I am really curious about is whether she could affect things like Falcon's wings, or IM/WM suits. The Ancient One and Kaecilius never bent organic matter (at least not that I can recall), but they seemed capable of warping things like stone, metal etc. without issues. It'd be interesting to see if she could mess with Falcon's wings, or the suits.

She could drop all of them in the mirror world and leave them there. Or just bfr them to space and leave them there.

I feel like War machine is mobile enough to take her out with range. Most of her cool stuff she needs to be relatively close to use.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Don't see why she can't though. She did the astral punch thing when Dr Strange tried to grab her. And she was yanking him in and out of that spiraling vision thing pretty easily. Mordo still mentioned that his heartrate was rising, to which the Ancient One quickly yanked him back, looked at him, and sent him off again. If she had shown strain/effort in doing those things, I'd question their validity in combat. But she was doing those things with casual ease.

What I am really curious about is whether she could affect things like Falcon's wings, or IM/WM suits. The Ancient One and Kaecilius never bent organic matter (at least not that I can recall), but they seemed capable of warping things like stone, metal etc. without issues. It'd be interesting to see if she could mess with Falcon's wings, or the suits.

She did all those when she wasn't in danger of getting hurt herself. Strange wasn't really attacking her, didn't even know what to expect, so the circumstances of her doing so are vastly different than when in a fight.

It's like how martial art masters can break multiple layers of brick with a single punch and yet can't easily break their opponent's bones in a proper fight.

Stops hard at War Machine.

Originally posted by FrothByte
She did all those when she wasn't in danger of getting hurt herself. Strange wasn't really attacking her, didn't even know what to expect, so the circumstances of her doing so are vastly different than when in a fight.

It's like how martial art masters can break multiple layers of brick with a single punch and yet can't easily break their opponent's bones in a proper fight.

Mirror Realm or alternate dimension. Leave them there. /end thread

Originally posted by KingD19
Mirror Realm or alternate dimension. Leave them there. /end thread

So BFR then. Sure. Doesn't explain how she'll be able to stop bullets or explosions or TK or Hulk/Thor level strength from killing her.

I think the only Avenger that will give her trouble is Vison. I might even say Cap might have a chance because he's the best combatant/strategist, but even that's a really big stretch.

Avengers who rely more on weapons/tech are not gonna beat her. It's safe to say that from what is shown in the film she can bend/alter inanimate objects to her will. I don't see a reason why she can't alter weapons the same way she alters
buildings and other matter. She could just fold Iron Man's suit into a tiny origami of Pikachu.

Hawkeye, Falcon, Iron Man and War Machine are out.

Avengers who rely on fighting skills are not gonna beat her with just that. She was soloing Kaecilius and all his zealots until they fled from her. The only person I see having a chance beating her in melee is Cap and even than she'd still have an edge because of sorcery.

Black Widow and Captain America are out.

Which leaves Hulk, Scarlet Witch, Vision and Thor.

Hulk is gonna blindly jump at her so all she has to do is open a portal right in front of her and BFR him anywhere she wants.

Wanda is powerful but she's only a kid and getting used to her powers. Wanda is essentially a spell caster as well she's not gonna beat the Ancient One at her own game. I can see how someone would rebuttle this though.

Thor will be tough but he's not the smartest Avenger. She can't fight him so she's gonna have to BFR him somehow.

Finally Vision. He's the wild card because he has an Infinity Stone and falls into a strange category. Will she be able to manipulate his cells? He IS synthetic. That is why I think of all the Avengers he will probably be the biggest problem.

Thor is easy. She either bfr's him when he flies at her. Or she BFR's Mjolnir when he throws it, leaving Thor as a really strong guy.

Clears

Originally posted by HellRider
I think the only Avenger that will give her trouble is Vison. I might even say Cap might have a chance because he's the best combatant/strategist, but even that's a really big stretch.

Avengers who rely more on weapons/tech are not gonna beat her. It's safe to say that from what is shown in the film she can bend/alter inanimate objects to her will. I don't see a reason why she can't alter weapons the same way she alters
buildings and other matter. She could just fold Iron Man's suit into a tiny origami of Pikachu.

Hawkeye, Falcon, Iron Man and War Machine are out.

Avengers who rely on fighting skills are not gonna beat her with just that. She was soloing Kaecilius and all his zealots until they fled from her. The only person I see having a chance beating her in melee is Cap and even than she'd still have an edge because of sorcery.

Black Widow and Captain America are out.

Which leaves Hulk, Scarlet Witch, Vision and Thor.

Hulk is gonna blindly jump at her so all she has to do is open a portal right in front of her and BFR him anywhere she wants.

Wanda is powerful but she's only a kid and getting used to her powers. Wanda is essentially a spell caster as well she's not gonna beat the Ancient One at her own game. I can see how someone would rebuttle this though.

Thor will be tough but he's not the smartest Avenger. She can't fight him so she's gonna have to BFR him somehow.

Finally Vision. He's the wild card because he has an Infinity Stone and falls into a strange category. Will she be able to manipulate his cells? He IS synthetic. That is why I think of all the Avengers he will probably be the biggest problem.

Saying the Ancient One can manipulate IM and Warmachine's armors just because she manipulated the environment feels almost like no limits fallacy to me.

Also, Wanda doesn't cast spells. There's nothing to stop Wanda from ripping apart the Ancient One with TK.

The Ancient One is a glass canon compared to most of the Avengers. Her only real hope in winning majority of these matches is BFR.

Lol, what's with the Strange wank? She has no feats vs competent fighters. Hawkeye drops her with a Taser arrow at the bell.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Saying the Ancient One can manipulate IM and Warmachine's armors just because she manipulated the environment feels almost like no limits fallacy to me.

Also, Wanda doesn't cast spells. There's nothing to stop Wanda from ripping apart the Ancient One with TK.

The Ancient One is a glass canon compared to most of the Avengers. Her only real hope in winning majority of these matches is BFR.

I can see why you'd pull out the "no limits fallacy" but is it? Doctor Strange says to her "this doesn't make any sense" and she replies "not everything has to." I'm not saying this proves that she can manipulate their armor but I don't see why she couldn't. They are merely mechanical vehicles. They are inanimate objects in space. In the first fight scene she folds buildings onto zealots to crush them. I'm only saying I think there is definitely a possibility she could perform that same act on Stark's armor.

Why isn't what Wanda does considered spells? She's using power that was given to her from an Infinity Stone to alter nature. When Doctor Strange used the Time Stone they stated he was casting spells with it. Same goes for when Malekith used the Reality Stone to change the cosmos, Loki's Mind Tap with the scepter or when Ronan zapped the Nova Corp w/ the power stone. If what TAO does is spell casting but what Wanda does isn't, I'm asking, what's the difference? But like I said, I can see how someone could refute my stance.

Oh she is definitely a glass cannon but she is a very tricky and powerful glass cannon. I do agree BFR is her best advantage against most of the Avengers, if not all.

Originally posted by FrothByte
She did all those when she wasn't in danger of getting hurt herself. Strange wasn't really attacking her, didn't even know what to expect, so the circumstances of her doing so are vastly different than when in a fight.

If she was just some frail, old lady, I'd agree with you. But she also showed herself to be an extremely skilled fighter, capable of casually manhandling multiple enhanced opponents at once (because people who can defy gravity and conjure weapons out of thin air are enhanced). Hell, she yanked two off their feet simply by moving her legs backwards. She has shown herself to be able to easily tag opponents in combat, and she can do those things I listed with casual touches, so I personally don't see the big leap in her doing those things against fighting opponents. Also, there is a good reason for her not using those attacks in combat, in the actual movie. Given the training/knowledge we see sorcerers receive, with regards to reality, astral projection, dimension hopping etc. those attacks are likely to be much less effective against fellow sorcerers (but we see they are highly effective against non-magical targets).

But one of the main reasons I don't see her having issues is because she did (what I consider at least) far more impressive magical feats, while in the middle of combat. On more than one occasion, she was able to reshape the entire battlefield, while engaging multiple opponents. If she can twist buildings around while fighting someone, I don't see why she can't astral punch someone who gets close enough.

Originally posted by FrothByte
So BFR then. Sure. Doesn't explain how she'll be able to stop bullets or explosions or TK or Hulk/Thor level strength from killing her.

Strange's shields were able to hold, for several seconds, against a beam that completely disintegrated him when it actually struck (not to mention all the other flying projectiles he blocked), but you think the Ancient One, who is vastly more skilled and experienced than him, will have issues with bullets? I can see larger explosions being a problem (given that their shields weren't an all-encompassing bubble), but I personally doubt regular bullets would do much.

Also, not sure how manipulating inorganic matter is a fallacy, when we have seen her do exactly that onscreen. Literally what single feat is there among the rest of the Avengers to suggest any of their regular gear/tech is more magic-resistant than any other inorganic matter?

TBH we probably will have to wait to see how these magic users do against conventional characters before we have any kind of definitive answer. As of now, I just assume they're normal humans, with normal human reflexes that wouldn't have a prayer of being able to react to something as basic as a gun shot, never mind having any kind of chance against big guns, like Thor and Vision.

Originally posted by HellRider
I can see why you'd pull out the "no limits fallacy" but is it? Doctor Strange says to her "this doesn't make any sense" and she replies "not everything has to." I'm not saying this proves that she can manipulate their armor but I don't see why she couldn't. They are merely mechanical vehicles. They are inanimate objects in space. In the first fight scene she folds buildings onto zealots to crush them. I'm only saying I think there is definitely a possibility she could perform that same act on Stark's armor.

Why isn't what Wanda does considered spells? She's using power that was given to her from an Infinity Stone to alter nature. When Doctor Strange used the Time Stone they stated he was casting spells with it. Same goes for when Malekith used the Reality Stone to change the cosmos, Loki's Mind Tap with the scepter or when Ronan zapped the Nova Corp w/ the power stone. If what TAO does is spell casting but what Wanda does isn't, I'm asking, what's the difference? But like I said, I can see how someone could refute my stance.

Oh she is definitely a glass cannon but she is a very tricky and powerful glass cannon. I do agree BFR is her best advantage against most of the Avengers, if not all.
I would argue that if she can bend ironman's armour she could have manipulated the zealots' clothes as well to choke them out or something. And since she didn't it means it would be to out of character for her even if she was bloodlusted.

and wanda's powers might be magical by nature but its pretty clear they're not spells the same way the ancient one uses hers. she probably wouldn't have some counter curse for it.

The difference is they were fellow sorcerers, with magical powers. So, an argument can be made that they could counter direct attempts, especially considering the crew in question was mucking about with the Dark Dimension themselves (the whole reason the Ancient One confronted them). We even see Kaecilius and crew manage to break out of Strange's time reversal, later in the film. Iron Man's suits have nothing magical about them.

the zealots couldn't manipulate matter at all till half way through the movie. in the first fight it would have been a legitimate tactic

Her reality bending powers don't affect the real world. She was bending and copying shit that was reflected in the mirror dimension and smashed people who were there, but the real world was not affected.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
The difference is they were fellow sorcerers, with magical powers. So, an argument can be made that they could counter direct attempts, especially considering the crew in question was mucking about with the Dark Dimension themselves (the whole reason the Ancient One confronted them). We even see Kaecilius and crew manage to break out of Strange's time reversal, later in the film. Iron Man's suits have nothing magical about them.

The zealots didn't have reality bending powers when she first fought them, yet she never manipulated their clothing. So we can't attribute powers to her she doesn't have feats for.

Well, I said win via any means necessary, including flipping things into the mirror dimension.

Anyway, I personally think she likely stops at Wanda. I think that she could potentially take IM or WM (I could see her tricking them into the Mirror Dimension), but I think that, unless Wanda jobs, her shields + offensive capabilities would net her a win here. Even though the Ancient One displayed enhanced durability (getting stabbed through the chest and falling like 10 stories would have instantly killed a regular human), she won't survive Wanda going all out. SW stopped a speeding train, and caught a falling airport control tower. That indicates that her TK is likely in the hundreds of tons range if she really pushes herself.

Originally posted by FrothByte
The zealots didn't have reality bending powers when she first fought them, yet she never manipulated their clothing. So we can't attribute powers to her she doesn't have feats for.

Eh, fair enough. But it doesn't negate it completely. She could still just move things to the Mirror Dimension and potentially twist/bend buildings/roads etc. around to create obstacles, or to crush opponents, as she did against the zealots. She essentially has total control over the terrain, if she chooses. That is hardly an advantage that should be overlooked.

which is why I think war machine stands a way better shot than cap or hawkeye. His flight should allow him to dodge buildings crushing him and he doesn't have to get close. He would probably stand a better chance than hulk or thor who have to get all up in her business to hurt her.

Yeah, the fliers actually have a much better shot here, after having some time to reflect. Anyone on the ground can potentially have serious problems if she starts messing with the terrain. Seems like mobility would be a very big factor against her.

Thor will inevitably bullrush her or toss Mjolnir. Either way he or it or both of them get BFR'd.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
and wanda's powers might be magical by nature but its pretty clear they're not spells the same way the ancient one uses hers. she probably wouldn't have some counter curse for it.

This is a difficult one to address. The Eye is an Infinity Stone, and sorcerers can manipulate it. SW got her powers from another Infinity Stone. It all seems to come down to manipulation of dimensional energies. Remember, the Ancient One mentioned that "spells" is just a word the ancient sorcerers used for it, but that it can be referred to differently as well. But it's impossible to say for sure, at this point. I wouldn't make an argument based on producing "counter-magic" against SW. At least not at this point in time.

Which makes me wonder, on a somewhat unrelated (yet kind of related) note. AIDA, from Agents of Shield. In the last episode, after scanning that mystical tomb (the Darkhold, or whatever it was called), seemed capable of manipulating strands of energy that look very similar to the energy Earth-based sorcerers use. In fact, based on how it was portrayed, and other things I read, Coulson & Fitz were stuck in the Mirror Dimension. I also thought it was pretty interesting how they blended mystical elements with tech. Though it's kind of weird that a robot can do magic.

Been reading rumors that she might become kind of an Ultron 2.0 though.

The ancient one was manipulating the mirror realm only tho. She never did that in the real world. That was the villain fully embracing dormmamu to do that. So I don't know if she could suddenly impact the armors..even if they were in the mirror dimension, the armors are from the real world.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
which is why I think war machine stands a way better shot than cap or hawkeye. His flight should allow him to dodge buildings crushing him and he doesn't have to get close. He would probably stand a better chance than hulk or thor who have to get all up in her business to hurt her.

Thor is the last person that needs to get close to hurt her. She has no defense against a summoned tornado. A charged hammer strike to the floor or a flat out lightning bolt are also possible ways to overwhelm her. From a distance anyway.

And to say she'd have a harder time manipulating something much smaller than the entire surrounding area is just wrong imo.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
This is a difficult one to address. The Eye is an Infinity Stone, and sorcerers can manipulate it. SW got her powers from another Infinity Stone. It all seems to come down to manipulation of dimensional energies. Remember, the Ancient One mentioned that "spells" is just a word the ancient sorcerers used for it, but that it can be referred to differently as well. But it's impossible to say for sure, at this point. I wouldn't make an argument based on producing "counter-magic" against SW. At least not at this point in time.

Which makes me wonder, on a somewhat unrelated (yet kind of related) note. AIDA, from Agents of Shield. In the last episode, after scanning that mystical tomb (the Darkhold, or whatever it was called), seemed capable of manipulating strands of energy that look very similar to the energy Earth-based sorcerers use. In fact, based on how it was portrayed, and other things I read, Coulson & Fitz were stuck in the Mirror Dimension. I also thought it was pretty interesting how they blended mystical elements with tech. Though it's kind of weird that a robot can do magic.

Been reading rumors that she might become kind of an Ultron 2.0 though.

Not all sorcerers can manipulate the time stone. Strange was able to manipulate the time stone after much study, and even Mordo was surprised at this since I assume he couldn't do it as well.

We can assume that the Sorcerer Supreme can control the time gem but we can't assume she can control the other infinity stones especially if she didn't have time to study them.

Originally posted by KingD19
And to say she'd have a harder time manipulating something much smaller than the entire surrounding area is just wrong imo.

So why didn't she manipulate the clothing of the zealots?

Didn't Vault already respond to that? It wouldn't have made any sense as they were also sorcerers and could probably negate it, or at least put up enough of a fight that it wasn't worth the hassle. It's like Cyclops and Havok blasting each other when they're immune to the others power. Waste of time.

Also she clearly didn't need to. But seriously, she and Kacelius were casually warping buildings and entire locations. You think she can't change clothes/armor?

Originally posted by KingD19
Didn't Vault already respond to that? It wouldn't have made any sense as they were also sorcerers and could probably negate it, or at least put up enough of a fight that it wasn't worth the hassle. It's like Cyclops and Havok blasting each other when they're immune to the others power. Waste of time.

Also she clearly didn't need to. But seriously, she and Kacelius were casually warping buildings and entire locations. You think she can't change clothes/armor?

And we already addressed this. None of the zealots had reality bedning powers when the Ancient one first fought them. Which means they had no defense against their clothes being turned against them... if the Ancient One could do it.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Not all sorcerers can manipulate the time stone. Strange was able to manipulate the time stone after much study, and even Mordo was surprised at this since I assume he couldn't do it as well.

Much study? He dicked around with that book for like 10 minutes before doing the apple thing. Mordo was surprised, because Strange was still a relative noob. Just like Wong thought that he wasn't ready for Astral Projection, until Strange proved him wrong. I was talking about properly trained and experienced sorcerers. And it was never once stated Mordo couldn't manipulate it. That is purely an assumption on your part. Mordo's reluctance to use it would be more related to his character at the time, as he was completely against mucking with the natural order of things.


Originally posted by FrothByte

We can assume that the Sorcerer Supreme can control the time gem but we can't assume she can control the other infinity stones especially if she didn't have time to study them.

You seem to have missed the point of my post then. I said it comes down to the manipulation of dimensional energy, so there was a potential link, and a potential that it could be manipulated similarly. I never stated as fact that she could definitely do it. I specifically said that I wouldn't make an argument on her countering SW's abilities, at least not until we have seen more. Which is also why I said I think she stops there.

Originally posted by KingD19
Didn't Vault already respond to that? It wouldn't have made any sense as they were also sorcerers and could probably negate it, or at least put up enough of a fight that it wasn't worth the hassle. It's like Cyclops and Havok blasting each other when they're immune to the others power. Waste of time.

Also she clearly didn't need to. But seriously, she and Kacelius were casually warping buildings and entire locations. You think she can't change clothes/armor?

Not if it's from the real world no I don't think she can. Onlying Kace impacted the real world. He isn't in this fight. The AO doesn't have that ability. The mirror realme sure, but it is pure baseless speculation to assume she could **** with the material from the real world..even in the mirror dimension. So again..the armors are from the real plane of existence. You have no proof she can mess with it.

Originally posted by wallman77
Not if it's from the real world no I don't think she can. Onlying Kace impacted the real world. He isn't in this fight. The AO doesn't have that ability. The mirror realme sure, but it is pure baseless speculation to assume she could **** with the material from the real world..even in the mirror dimension. So again..the armors are from the real plane of existence. You have no proof she can mess with it.

Considering Dr Strange turned a tea cup into a mug of beer, and then refilled it, in the real world, it is most likely the case that she could also transmute matter. While it's not usable in this specific thread, it's certainly not a case of there being "no proof", and it's definitely not "baseless" either.

In any case, let's just drop the whole messing with armor/clothing idea since that's a dead end. The AO simply doesn't have the feats for it.

Originally posted by FrothByte
She did all those when she wasn't in danger of getting hurt herself. Strange wasn't really attacking her, didn't even know what to expect, so the circumstances of her doing so are vastly different than when in a fight.

It's like how martial art masters can break multiple layers of brick with a single punch and yet can't easily break their opponent's bones in a proper fight.

But we'd need an actual reason why she couldn't do it in combat. This isn't really enough of a reason. It didn't seem to take much concentration or effort.

Originally posted by Surtur
But we'd need an actual reason why she couldn't do it in combat. This isn't really enough of a reason. It didn't seem to take much concentration or effort.

Err no, you actually need feats of her doing so in combat, because otherwise it would beg the question as to why she never used it in combat if it was so effective. It's the same reason why Ozy catching a bullet does not translate to bullet-time speed while in combat.

I'd argue that the situation with Ozy and the Ancient One is different. Ozy has other combat showings that aren't happening at bullet time speed. That shot was also telegraphed as f***. We also know that things like an astral form punch is next to useless against trained sorcerers, as they have control over their astral form, so there is a valid reason for not using it in combat in the film. And Strange did lunge at her (unlike a completely stationary pile of bricks). Whether his attempt was to harm or not, she responded to a quick action, and countered. So, why exactly is it such a stretch to assume she could do so with a clean strike, in combat? We see that she is hardly some noob when it comes to fighting, and that she was able to do those things to Strange without any effort.

Let me ask you this. Do you think Captain America can decapitate a regular human with his shield (single, clean strike/throw)? Available strength feats suggest he could, but he has never visibly done so in combat.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I'd argue that the situation with Ozy and the Ancient One is different. Ozy has other combat showings that aren't happening at bullet time speed. That shot was also telegraphed as f***. We also know that things like an astral form punch is next to useless against trained sorcerers, as they have control over their astral form, so there is a valid reason for not using it in combat in the film. And Strange did lunge at her (unlike a completely stationary pile of bricks). Whether his attempt was to harm or not, she responded to a quick action, and countered. So, why exactly is it such a stretch to assume she could do so with a clean strike, in combat? We see that she is hardly some noob when it comes to fighting, and that she was able to do those things to Strange without any effort.

Let me ask you this. Do you think Captain America can decapitate a regular human with his shield (single, clean strike/throw)? Available strength feats suggest he could, but he has never visibly done so in combat.

The Captain America comparison is a bad one since he actually has feats of cutting ultronbots and chitauri in half with his shield while in combat. Both of which appear tougher than regular humans.

Astral punching another sorcerer would have left them disoriented for a second or two which would have given the AO an advantage over their physical form, yet she never did so. Think of it this way: majority of decently trained martial artists can perform a spinning heel kick. Yet only a very select few will try to use it in actual combat. Why? Because it's a ridiculously hard thing to do against a fighting opponent. Some moves are just hard to do while in combat even if they seem effortless during practice. Do you deny this is so?

Originally posted by FrothByte
The Captain America comparison is a bad one since he actually has feats of cutting ultronbots and chitauri in half with his shield while in combat. Both of which appear tougher than regular humans.

I said decapitate with single, clean strike. I never said simply cutting. The one time I recall him actually splitting an Ultron bot in half, he first shield tossed it, and then kicked the shield through the bot, after it had lodged in.

Originally posted by FrothByte

Astral punching another sorcerer would have left them disoriented for a second or two which would have given the AO an advantage over their physical form, yet she never did so. Think of it this way: majority of decently trained martial artists can perform a spinning heel kick. Yet only a very select few will try to use it in actual combat. Why? Because it's a ridiculously hard thing to do against a fighting opponent. Some moves are just hard to do while in combat even if they seem effortless during practice. Do you deny this is so?

How do you know it would have left them disorientated? How do you know it even works against someone who has conscious control of their astral form? That's pure speculation on your part. You are telling me I can't use a showing because it didn't happen in a specific way, but you are making assumptions about the effect it would have had if she did.

And you are comparing something she did with casual ease against a conscious, sentient, moving, agitated human, with something RL martial artists do against stationary, non-sentient objects. How exactly is that a fair comparison?

By that logic, things like Thor's Sokovia strike is also no longer usable in Versus threads, because he performed it against a vibranium core, after an uninterrupted moment to prep himself when Tony told him to get ready. Or claiming that the SHIELD guys he fought while depowered were uber skilled, just because Coulson described them as "some of the most highly trained professionals in the world", seeing as they have no actual screen feats to support that notion.

I rechecked the relevant fights. The only instance in any of those fights where Cap has moments of "cutting" enemies "in half" is the instance I mentioned in Age of Ultron, and it took multiple hits. Closest he came to cutting a Chitauri in half was when he severed the forearm of one, by pulling it straight and cutting down with his shield, something that would be harder to execute on a head/neck, in the same manner.

Yet, I would still say that, based on overall feats, he could decap a regular human with a single, clean strike.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I rechecked the relevant fights. The only instance in any of those fights where Cap has moments of "cutting" enemies "in half" is the instance I mentioned in Age of Ultron, and it took multiple hits. Closest he came to cutting a Chitauri in half was when he severed the forearm of one, by pulling it straight and cutting down with his shield, something that would be harder to execute on a head/neck, in the same manner.

Yet, I would still say that, based on overall feats, he could decap a regular human with a single, clean strike.

Cap cut an ultronbot in half in their first fight in Stark tower by throwing his shield at it. Cut its torso in half with a clean hit. So he does have feats for it while in combat. Like I said, not a good example to use Cap.

Those were hacked Iron Legion. Not proper Ultron Bots. A civilian damaged one by throwing a bottle at its head, in the beginning of the film.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller

How do you know it would have left them disorientated? How do you know it even works against someone who has conscious control of their astral form? That's pure speculation on your part. You are telling me I can't use a showing because it didn't happen in a specific way, but you are making assumptions about the effect it would have had if she did.

And you are comparing something she did with casual ease against a conscious, sentient, moving, agitated human, with something RL martial artists do against stationary, non-sentient objects. How exactly is that a fair comparison?

By that logic, things like Thor's Sokovia strike is also no longer usable in Versus threads, because he performed it against a vibranium core, after an uninterrupted moment to prep himself when Tony told him to get ready. Or claiming that the SHIELD guys he fought while depowered were uber skilled, just because Coulson described them as "some of the most highly trained professionals in the world", seeing as they have no actual screen feats to support that notion.

To be fair, you're also making assumptions that the astral punch will be useless against other sorcerers. Why? Do punches not work against boxers just because they can do it to? You're also making the assumption that AO can do it againat a properly fighting individual and not simply against an agitated but completely clueless and injured person.

Your example of Thor fails because he has the Jotunheim strike which is comparable to the Sokovia strike which he did in the middle of a fight. Your example of SHIELD agents being not uber skilled fails because every single SHIELD field agent we've seen are skilled, even a fresh recruit like Daisy, and we know that when Coulson says these were some of his best he isn't known to make stuff like that up. The difference is we have basis for these.

You're assuming that the AO can replicate a feat she did against a clueless, injured man who wasn't intent on fighting... duplicate that feat against a fully fighting individual with skills far greater than Strange at the time it happened to him.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Those were hacked Iron Legion. Not proper Ultron Bots. A civilian damaged one by throwing a bottle at its head, in the beginning of the film.

Throwing a bottle of acid. Not just A bottle. Are you telling me the neck of a person is tougher than the torso of those legions? That flesh blood and bone are tougher than steel or even iron?

Originally posted by FrothByte
To be fair, you're also making assumptions that the astral punch will be useless against other sorcerers. Why? Do punches not work against boxers just because they can do it to? You're also making the assumption that AO can do it againat a properly fighting individual and not simply against an agitated but completely clueless and injured person.

Except my assumption has more evidence to support it. We know trained sorcerers have control over their astral forms, and can even gain enough control to fight each other in astral. You are throwing out statements about how it will affect them for multiple seconds, based on what?

So wait, you are saying that her ability to use it is dependent on the intention of her opponent? Okay then.


Originally posted by FrothByte

Your example of Thor fails because he has the Jotunheim strike which is comparable to the Sokovia strike which he did in the middle of a fight. Your example of SHIELD agents being not uber skilled fails because every single SHIELD field agent we've seen are skilled, even a fresh recruit like Daisy, and we know that when Coulson says these were some of his best he isn't known to make stuff like that up. The difference is we have basis for these.

Where did I mention Jotunheim? But hey, let's get into that. He did it while a bunch of Frost Giants were running at him, to get to melee. So, by your own standards, it is only partially usable. What evidence is there that it would have the same effect if someone like Vision flew right at him? What evidence is there to suggest he could execute the attack with the same level of efficiency if someone like Loki or IM was taking potshots at him with repulsors or staff?

And no, Coulson never once said they were his best. I can post the clip if you want. He says the following: "My men, some of the most highly trained professionals in the world, and you made them look like minimum wage mall cops. That's hurtful." He never specified they were his best fighters, or his best anything. And the term "highly trained professional" can apply to any elite special force agency. That doesn't guarantee all of them are masterful H2H fighter (we can assume they have a degree of skill, but not that they are on par with the very elite we have seen, like May). So, how can you assign these guys skill level equal to other characters, when they have no feats, but dismiss the notion that the Ancient One could do something we know she can, simply because it wasn't against a hostile opponent?


Originally posted by FrothByte

You're assuming that the AO can replicate a feat she did against a clueless, injured man who wasn't intent on fighting... duplicate that feat against a fully fighting individual with skills far greater than Strange at the time it happened to him.

I said, IF she can land a clean strike, I don't see any reason why she couldn't.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Throwing a bottle of acid. Not just A bottle. Are you telling me the neck of a person is tougher than the torso of those legions? That flesh blood and bone are tougher than steel or even iron?

Well, according to your own statements, we can't assume anything without seeing it onscreen.

Edit: Plus, we see Tony's repulsors blast them apart, but they don't splatter people, even in instances where he is out to kill.

You can't have it both ways. Either we allow some degree of leeway for speculation, or things like the Jotunheim buster is only usable in threads where he is facing melee opponents, and the Sokovia strike isn't usable at all. And he executed them in different manners, so even saying he can do one doesn't mean he could do the other one in the same scenario.

@ Froth

Reading through everything, I think you misunderstood my initial meaning. I don't mean an astral form punch is a guaranteed instawin (or that other weird mind thing she did). Nor that it would even be an easy thing to achieve. Obviously, hitting anyone is not only dependent on your own skill level, but on theirs as well. So, it goes without saying that landing that kind of hit against Captain America would be harder than doing it against an untrained Dr Strange. But the fact that we have seen her knock a person's astral form out of their body with a strike, means it is a potential tactic in a fight, assuming she can land a proper, clean hit. Take your own example of the kick. It is not easy, and it might not connect. But that doesn't mean it is impossible for it to connect either, and could be worth attempting, especially against characters like Hulk or Thor, who are extremely resistant to conventional attacks. Even if the astral punches did work on other sorcerers, they still had relatively human durability, and she was kicking their a**** without having to resort to those tactics, whereas I don't see her normal magic weapons having much affect against those two.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, according to your own statements, we can't assume anything without seeing it onscreen.

Edit: Plus, we see Tony's repulsors blast them apart, but they don't splatter people, even in instances where he is out to kill.

Vault, if you gave me a decent argument then I will acknowledge and respect it. I'd appreciate if you did the same for me. Right now, you are strawmanning the hell out of my arguments... this is not like you.

Cap cut that robot in half with one clean hit. He did so while in combat. Considering that the robot is tougher than humans (able to withstand multiple gunshots) that should be more than enough proof that Cap has the ability to cut someone's head off in the middle of a fight... provided he can land the hit. This is a solid argument. Don't know why you keep contesting this.

Thor has used massive AOE strikes in the middle of a fight. SHIELD agents have all proven combat efficient in the middle of fights. Don't make this any more complicated than it is.

AO has not used that astral punch in the middle of a fight. We have no idea how easily she was able to recover after doing that, we have no idea if she can do it in the heat of combat. In short, you're the one making assumptions that she can actually do it in combat. We have no idea if she can do it repeatedly in case her first attempt misses. All I'm doing is pointing out she has no feats of doing it in the middle of a fight and so we can't immediately assume she can easily do so.

It's the exact same reason why we don't attribute bullet time fighting speed to Ozy based on his one-off bullet catching feat. Same reason we don't say that Dr. Strange can simply overflow a person's internal fluids to kill him just because he could refill a mug. None of them have ever done so in combat. I don't know why you're trying to make this more complicated than it should be.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Vault, if you gave me a decent argument then I will acknowledge and respect it. I'd appreciate if you did the same for me. Right now, you are strawmanning the hell out of my arguments... this is not like you.

Cap cut that robot in half with one clean hit. He did so while in combat. Considering that the robot is tougher than humans (able to withstand multiple gunshots) that should be more than enough proof that Cap has the ability to cut someone's head off in the middle of a fight... provided he can land the hit. This is a solid argument. Don't know why you keep contesting this.

I have been saying at multiple points that I do think he can decapitate someone with a clean strike, even if he hasn't done that exact thing onscreen. Because we can infer it from other showings.

Originally posted by FrothByte

Thor has used massive AOE strikes in the middle of a fight. SHIELD agents have all proven combat efficient in the middle of fights. Don't make this any more complicated than it is.

Again, he used it against one type of opponent. So, what proof do you have that it would be just as effective against an opponent who uses different tactics? Do you have proof he can keep his rhythm to build up that attack if he is under continuous ranged fire?

And some unnamed SHIELD operatives have gone down quickly in some episodes as well. These guys have no feats, yet I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they have some skill, because they work for SHIELD. But giving them combat skills on par with named agents, who actually have plenty of feats, is pushing it. Especially, after the ruling Imp recently made about that tectonic plate feat in the one Superman thread.

I'm not making anything more complicated. I am simply including all the relevant information.

Originally posted by FrothByte

AO has not used that astral punch in the middle of a fight. We have no idea how easily she was able to recover after doing that, we have no idea if she can do it in the heat of combat. In short, you're the one making assumptions that she can actually do it in combat. We have no idea if she can do it repeatedly in case her first attempt misses. All I'm doing is pointing out she has no feats of doing it in the middle of a fight.

It's the exact same reason why we don't attribute bullet time fighting speed to Ozy based on his one-off bullet catching feat. Same reason we don't say that Dr. Strange can simply overflow a person's internal fluids to kill him just because he could refill a mug. None of them have ever done so in combat. I don't know why you're trying to make this more complicated than it should be.

See, from my point of view, it's a double-standard. Based on what I read, you seem to want to assume some unnamed agents are very highly skilled, because completely different characters are, and that Thor can use certain attacks against opponents he never has before, because he has used it against opponents who attack differently, but the Ancient One can't potentially do something she was shown doing without issue or strain onscreen, simply because it was not in a fight.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I have been saying at multiple points that I do think he can decapitate someone with a clean strike, even if he hasn't done that exact thing onscreen. Because we can infer it from other showings.



Again, he used it against one type of opponent. So, what proof do you have that it would be just as effective against an opponent who uses different tactics? Do you have proof he can keep his rhythm to build up that attack if he is under continuous ranged fire?

And some unnamed SHIELD operates have gone down quickly in some episodes as well. These guys have no feats, yet I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they have some skill, because they work for SHIELD. But giving them combat skills on par with named agents, who actually have plenty of feats, is pushing it. Especially, after the ruling Imp recently made about that tectonic plate feat in the one Superman thread.




See, from my point of view, it's a double-standard. Based on what I read, you seem to want to assume some unnamed agents are very highly skilled, because completely different characters are, and that Thor can use certain attacks against opponents he never has before, because he has used it against opponents who attack differently, but the Ancient One can't potentially do something she was shown doing without issue or strain onscreen, simply because it was not in a fight.

There is no double standard. You're simply misrepresenting what I said. I NEVER said that something needed to be shown with an exact, specific feat in order to be valid. I don't even know why you think that's what I said.

What I did say was, a feat that was done outside combat does not mean it can be applied in combat, since combat situations can be vastly more stressful and difficult.

So there is no double standard, since Thor, Cap and the SHIELD agents (including new recruits) all have displayed their feats in question while in combat, whereas AO's astral punch was never used in combat. It's that simple.

Originally posted by FrothByte
There is no double standard. You're simply misrepresenting what I said. I NEVER said that something needed to be shown with an exact, specific feat in order to be valid. I don't even know why you think that's what I said.

What I did say was, a feat that was done outside combat does not mean it can be applied in combat, since combat situations can be vastly more stressful and difficult.

So there is no double standard, since Thor, Cap and the SHIELD agents (including new recruits) all have displayed their feats in question while in combat, whereas AO's astral punch was never used in combat. It's that simple.

Well, to me, it was clearly meant to be portrayed as something she could do easily and casually (the act itself, not necessarily connecting it on someone trying to avoid it). She didn't show any strain, she wasn't out of breath etc. She showed no sign at all that it was difficult for her to do, or that she needed any recovery time afterwards. And she did it against a moving opponent who was trying to grab her, even if he was not a particularly skilled. She also showed herself to be cool and meticulous in actual combat, as well as very economical with her movements and actions (which would make sense, considering she literally has centuries of XP). So, to me, personally, I find it a weak reason to dismiss this particular case.

Anyway, it seems like we won't agree on this, so I see little point in continuing.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Err no, you actually need feats of her doing so in combat, because otherwise it would beg the question as to why she never used it in combat if it was so effective. It's the same reason why Ozy catching a bullet does not translate to bullet-time speed while in combat.

You ask why a character didn't use an incredibly useful ability in order to easily disarm a situation as if this isn't a staple of comics and shows/movies based on comics.

Her doing that isn't as flashy or cool as other kinds of attacks during a battle.

Originally posted by Surtur
You ask why a character didn't use an incredibly useful ability in order to easily disarm a situation as if this isn't a staple of comics and shows/movies based on comics.

Like Apocalypse decapitating a bunch of people standing around him, using only sand, during the beginning (well, in the first 3rd of the movie, at least) of X-Men: Apocalypse, and never using that extremely useful ability again.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, to me, it was clearly meant to be portrayed as something she could do easily and casually (the act itself, not necessarily connecting it on someone trying to avoid it). She didn't show any strain, she wasn't out of breath etc. She showed no sign at all that it was difficult for her to do, or that she needed any recovery time afterwards. And she did it against a moving opponent who was trying to grab her, even if he was not a particularly skilled. She also showed herself to be cool and meticulous in actual combat, as well as very economical with her movements and actions (which would make sense, considering she literally has centuries of XP). So, to me, personally, I find it a weak reason to dismiss this particular case.

Anyway, it seems like we won't agree on this, so I see little point in continuing.

Like I said before, martial artists can casually do a spinning heel kick in practice, yet won't easily be able to do in a fight.

In any case, using your logic, would you then say that Ozy could catch bullets in the middle of a fight?

Originally posted by FrothByte
Like I said before, martial artists can casually do a spinning heel kick in practice, yet won't easily be able to do in a fight.

When have I ever stated it would be easily done in a fight? I said the act itself might be easy (like doing the kick in practice), not that it would be easy to connect. In fact, I specifically said that it would also depend on the skill of the opponent. But I said that it would be a tactic potentially worth pursuing against someone like Hulk or Thor, considering that I don't see her normal attacks doing any damage.

I mean think of it this way. You fight someone and all your easier, more conventional attacks fail. You have another attack that you could try. It is riskier, it takes more effort, and it's harder to connect, but if it does, it would be more effective. Which is the better option? Risking it, or just keep pounding away, despite knowing it would do no good?

Originally posted by FrothByte

In any case, using your logic, would you then say that Ozy could catch bullets in the middle of a fight?

Maybe he could catch a single bullet. I wouldn't rule it out completely. But would he be able to do anything afterwards? Not based on the fact that he fell over in the process.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
When have I ever stated it would be easily done in a fight? I said the act itself might be easy (like doing the kick in practice), not that it would be easy to connect. In fact, I specifically said that it would also depend on the skill of the opponent. But I said that it would be a tactic potentially worth pursuing against someone like Hulk or Thor, considering that I don't see her normal attacks doing any damage.

I mean think of it this way. You fight someone and all your easier, more conventional attacks fail. You have another attack that you could try. It is riskier, it takes more effort, and it's harder to connect, but if it does, it would be more effective. Which is the better option? Risking it, or just keep pounding away, despite knowing it would do no good?



Maybe he could catch a single bullet. I wouldn't rule it out completely. But would he be able to do anything afterwards? Not based on the fact that he fell over in the process.

Ok, so could we just settle on the Astral Punch being an option but that it would probably be difficult to pull off in a fight since she doesn't have the feats of using it in a fight?

Originally posted by Surtur
You ask why a character didn't use an incredibly useful ability in order to easily disarm a situation as if this isn't a staple of comics and shows/movies based on comics.

Her doing that isn't as flashy or cool as other kinds of attacks during a battle.

It happens in real life too. There are loads of things that people can do in a relaxed environment that they won't be able to accomplish in a highly stressful environment.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Ok, so could we just settle on the Astral Punch being an option but that it would probably be difficult to pull off in a fight since she doesn't have the feats of using it in a fight?

That's basically been my stance all along. It's not necessarily an easy option, but it would be worth a shot against opponents she can't affect via other, more conventional, means, like Thor or Hulk. I somehow doubt it would work on Vision though. I mean, does he even have an astral form?

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
That's basically been my stance all along. It's not necessarily an easy option, but it would be worth a shot against opponents she can't affect via other, more conventional, means, like Thor or Hulk. I somehow doubt it would work on Vision though. I mean, does he even have an astral form?

Fair enough. Personally, I just don't think she'll get the chance to properly use it when she's busy defending against guys like Thor and Hulk he can probably knock her out with a casual hit.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Fair enough. Personally, I just don't think she'll get the chance to properly use it when she's busy defending against guys like Thor and Hulk he can probably knock her out with a casual hit.

Well, it would depend on how she has been utilizing other abilities as well, IMO. She might be able to create an opening if she takes it to the mirror realm, and starts screwing around with the terrain first. As we saw, she can start putting things in motion, so that the terrain/buildings keep moving and adjusting while she continues fighting, like she did during the film's opening fight scene. Anyway, like I said previously, I personally don't see her even getting that far in this gauntlet.

Bump
Ancient one clears this IMO, yes including scarlet witch.

Black Widow is more likely to win than anyone else honestly.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Strange's shields were able to hold, for several seconds, against a beam that completely disintegrated him when it actually struck (not to mention all the other flying projectiles he blocked), but you think the Ancient One, who is vastly more skilled and experienced than him, will have issues with bullets? I can see larger explosions being a problem (given that their shields weren't an all-encompassing bubble), but I personally doubt regular bullets would do much.

Also, not sure how manipulating inorganic matter is a fallacy, when we have seen her do exactly that onscreen. Literally what single feat is there among the rest of the Avengers to suggest any of their regular gear/tech is more magic-resistant than any other inorganic matter?

Do you think this was super strength or by magic
https://64.media.tumblr.com/5905c4ed1143a19196f715773997ee1c/tumblr_p3s4vqRu0x1v6w3juo4_500.gifv

And here's yanking people by legs
https://gfycat.com/afraidthincockerspaniel

Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
Do you think this was super strength or by magic
https://64.media.tumblr.com/5905c4ed1143a19196f715773997ee1c/tumblr_p3s4vqRu0x1v6w3juo4_500.gifv

And here's yanking people by legs
https://gfycat.com/afraidthincockerspaniel

I think it's either she augments her physical stats via magic or it could be a biproduct of her control of the Mirror Dimension. Personally, I'd lean to her augmenting her physical stats. Because even though she ultimately died from this, the fact that she didn't immediately die on impact suggests durability beyond a normal human. Especially considering she got stabbed as well.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GrandioseBoldIcelandgull-mobile.mp4

Which, if we factor in what you posted, suggests augmented physical capabilities.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Black Widow is more likely to win than anyone else honestly. How?
Ancient one would explode her with a handwave like that chitauri in that alternate past in Endgame.

She has different methods to fight every threat. She can beat enyone there.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I think it's either she augments her physical stats via magic or it could be a biproduct of her control of the Mirror Dimension. Personally, I'd lean to her augmenting her physical stats. Because even though she ultimately died from this, the fact that she didn't immediately die on impact suggests durability beyond a normal human. Especially considering she got stabbed as well.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GrandioseBoldIcelandgull-mobile.mp4

Which, if we factor in what you posted, suggests augmented physical capabilities.
Yeah and also considering the fact that she was hitting some of them a good distance away suggests augmented strength.