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Prime incarnations. Failure to debate is automatic concession of inferiority.

ShootingNova gets opener. DarthAnt66 gets one post - since that's all he'll need.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66 gets one post - since that's all he'll need. https://media.giphy.com/media/rzBUxFJm1EJ20/giphy.gif

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I've officially conceded this debate, as well as all past, present and future debates.

Did both of you agree to this? If so, this is going to be good.

I imagine they didn't.

Nah, Tony is just desperate for attention as usual.

Ewww don't call him Tony. Doesn't fit him at all

He prefers it tho.

That's really gross. He's our cute little ant. Not a "Tony."

Aye, Tony.

I like Tony.

http://emojipedia-us.s3.amazonaws.com/cache/a4/8e/a48e004e9d88a2df90ee3aca27f0552b.png

William, please.

Please wat.

And call me Bearon u feg.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Please wat.
Please die. I meant, please be silent.

Your request has been heard and your feedback appreciated.

Unfortunately I have decided against your suggestion.

Take a seat, young Ursumeles.

Troll thread? I thought it was basically confirmed the DARTH Revan would beat both Traya and the Exile let alone Prime Revan.

Originally posted by nfactor1995
Troll thread? I thought it was basically confirmed the DARTH Revan would beat both Traya and the Exile let alone Prime Revan. You'll find that any version of placed rather low on this forum. Much to the contrary of the efforts of Ant and myself.

Originally posted by nfactor1995
Troll thread? I thought it was basically confirmed the DARTH Revan would beat both Traya and the Exile let alone Prime Revan. Nah, that was Chris Avellone's personal opinion. People tend to mistake such things for fact.

Ah yes, the infamous "author quotes don't count" argument. Apparently they only don't count if they're going against your pov, as SunRazer demonstrated in our debate earlier.

Sunrazer's double standards are LEGENDary.

Link me.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Link me.



https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/1c/b4/61/1cb461f631e4008a247fe615a6ed4b2c.jpg

Originally posted by darthbane77
Ah yes, the infamous "author quotes don't count" argument. Apparently they only don't count if they're going against your pov, as SunRazer demonstrated in our debate earlier.
Could you quote the post with the Double Standarts?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/1c/b4/61/1cb461f631e4008a247fe615a6ed4b2c.jpg

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova


Sunrazer's double standards are LEGENDary.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Could you quote the post with the Double Standarts? Somewhere in our exchange on either page 2 or 3 he brings up that author quotes can't be counted, which I counter.http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=637177&pagenumber=2

You mean when you quote something that you posted to Ant?

Originally posted by Ursumeles
You mean when you quote something that you posted to Ant? What do you mean? We were talking about Luceno's Plagueis>TPM Sheev quote, nobody brought up Ant.

Originally posted by darthbane77


Somewhere in our exchange on either page 2 or 3 he brings up that author quotes can't be counted, which I counter.http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=637177&pagenumber=2

"I'm not any kind of official expert or authority on Star Wars. I wrote some books for them, but I don't get to say what is or isn't canon or official or anything like that. That's why I'm reluctant to answer questions like this; because even with all these caveats it's inevitable that fans will give my opinion more weight than it's worth. So, to sum up, I told you my opinion, but it doesn't have any real weight, importance or authority."
-Drew Karpyshyn

Originally posted by darthbane77
I just had this same debate with Ant on Facebook actually, I interpreted the text as meaning something difference based on other things that have occurred in the mythos that are similar to Sidious' killing of Plagueis. This is what I told Ant, part of what I told him anyway.

"That's testament to his strength in the Force. Likewise, "skill and ability to do so" doesn't necessarily mean Palpatine was superior. Luke bested Vader without being superior to him, Zannah bested Bane without (arguably) being superior to him. It simple suggests that Sidious, by that point, had acquired the means to be able to kill Plagueis. Not that Sidious was actually superior. More like a "I've learned a lot from you but I can take it from here" kind of thing."

I meant this, but you don't talk about author statement being true here *shrug*

Also, I don't wanna be rude, but it's ridiculous how you(and Syn)moan about Nova's Double Standarts, only to say then:
> Valkorion is > Plagueis/RotS Sidious, because the canonical source isn't backed up by feats!
> An author says, Plagueis > TPM Sidious, and another says D. Revan would beat Traya and the Exile together, so it's true!

Originally posted by Ursumeles
I meant this, but you don't talk about author statement being true here *shrug*

Also, I don't wanna be rude, but it's ridiculous how you(and Syn)moan about Nova's Double Standarts, only to say then:
> Valkorion is > Plagueis/RotS Sidious, because the canonical source isn't backed up by feats!
> An author says, Plagueis > TPM Sidious, and another says D. Revan would beat Traya and the Exile together, so it's true! Yeah I didn't mention the author quotes there at all.

I take a mixed approach when dealing with author quotes and most accolades. Some can be taken at face value, but there are others that need substantiation. For example, the Plagueis quote has substantiation to back it in the form of feats, where as anything suggesting that TPM Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord of all time, does not; as comparing feats between TPM Sidious and the likes of Plagueis of Vitiate make it obvious that Plagueis and Vitiate were above Sheev at that point in time.

Originally posted by Selenial
"I'm not any kind of official expert or authority on Star Wars. I wrote some books for them, but I don't get to say what is or isn't canon or official or anything like that. That's why I'm reluctant to answer questions like this; because even with all these caveats it's inevitable that fans will give my opinion more weight than it's worth. So, to sum up, I told you my opinion, but it doesn't have any real weight, importance or authority."
-Drew Karpyshyn

Your evidence against author quotes is an author quote......and people wonder why this forum is shit.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Yeah I didn't mention the author quotes there at all.

I take a mixed approach when dealing with author quotes and most accolades. Some can be taken at face value, but there are others that need substantiation. For example, the Plagueis quote has substantiation to back it in the form of feats, where as anything suggesting that TPM Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord of all time, does not; as comparing feats between TPM Sidious and the likes of Plagueis of Vitiate make it obvious that Plagueis and Vitiate were above Sheev at that point in time.
You just said, that you countered that Author quotes shouldn't be counted, so youmseem to believe that they should be counted.

Yeah, based on feats Traya & Exile > D. Revan, lol.
TPM Sidious literally stomping Maul, and being holistically portrayed as his masters equal, should be enough to put him above Plaggy after a huge powergrowth.
I also more meant the Plaggy > Vitiate quote.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
You just said, that you countered that Author quotes shouldn't be counted, so youmseem to believe that they should be counted.

Yeah, based on feats Traya & Exile > D. Revan, lol.
TPM Sidious literally stomping Maul, and being holistically portrayed as his masters equal, should be enough to put him above Plaggy after a huge powergrowth.
I also more meant the Plaggy > Vitiate quote. What? I'm the one USING the author quote. Why would I say it can't be used when it's one of my major tools? Author quotes should be considered, if not contradicted by anything 100% undeniable.

I never actually said I subscribed to the Darth Revan>Traya+Surik quote. Mostly because it doesn't hold up, but if one subscribes to the Mando Wars Revan>Nihilus quote then that would also be true (not saying I believe that quote either, not as far as Mando Wars Revan is concerned anyway.)

TPM Sheev has no feats to support superiority to Plagueis. I do they the two were relatively close in power, but with Plagueis as the superior.

Everybody well knows I don't consider back cover blurbs canon, which I told SunRazer.

I am criticizing that you use Author quotes, which are just opinions, but ignore the canonical blurbs

A quote applies absolutely always unless it's contradicted by feats. And no, having inferior feats to someone isn't a contradiction in itself, unless both characters' limits have been clearly defined and the one with a quote backing him up is still inferior.

For example: Valkorion has planetary feats, yet Plagueis does not. Plagueis, however, has a quote declaring him the strongest Sith ever and he has never been pushed to his limits, or even close to it, really. Dismissing the quote because of a lack of feats on Plagueis' part is a fallacy and results in automatic concession.

This does not apply to opinions of course, be they from a KMC user or from an author.

Originally posted by Selenial
"I'm not any kind of official expert or authority on Star Wars. I wrote some books for them, but I don't get to say what is or isn't canon or official or anything like that. That's why I'm reluctant to answer questions like this; because even with all these caveats it's inevitable that fans will give my opinion more weight than it's worth. So, to sum up, I told you my opinion, but it doesn't have any real weight, importance or authority."
-Drew Karpyshyn



A revealing quote. It would seem to me that an opinion that an author gives to a fan question and what is legitimately considered canon and thus is applicable to scaling a character's performance in a hypothetical battle are two different things.

I think we're all aware that there's an inherent difference between an author clarifying THEIR OWN work and giving an opinion on general canon or other events within continuity.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I think we're all aware that there's an inherent difference between an author clarifying THEIR OWN work and giving an opinion on general canon or other events within continuity.

Ok, can you give an example? The most notable examples I've seen of author quotes being used to substantiate positions are hypothetical battle questions posed to authors, like Revan vs the Exile and Traya for Avellone, or Plaguies vs Sidous for Luceno. The only instance that I can remember an author quote was used to clarify a work was Veitch saying that Sidious couldn't control his force storms, which people immediately denied as it contradicted other canon sources. Drew's clarification provided in the quote Selenial provided was interesting to me.

I guess Lucas clarifying things in his commentaries is an example now that I think about it. But Lucas was the owner and creator of Star Wars, so his input on things like the Prequel Trilogy being the "Golden Age" and all that seems credible because he invented the universe to begin? Does that seem hypocritical?

Originally posted by Ursumeles
I am criticizing that you use Author quotes, which are just opinions, but ignore the canonical blurbs That would be a relevant argument if blurbs were canon.

They are.

-Leeland Chee

Originally posted by Solar Power
Ok, can you give an example? The most notable examples I've seen of author quotes being used to substantiate positions are hypothetical battle questions posed to authors, like Revan vs the Exile and Traya for Avellone, or Plaguies vs Sidous for Luceno. The only instance that I can remember an author quote was used to clarify a work was Veitch saying that Sidious couldn't control his force storms, which people immediately denied as it contradicted other canon sources. Drew's clarification provided in the quote Selenial provided was interesting to me.

Those clarifications you mentioned are relevant unless the author takes them back later, yes.

Originally posted by Solar Power
I guess Lucas clarifying things in his commentaries is an example now that I think about it. But Lucas was the owner and creator of Star Wars, so his input on things like the Prequel Trilogy being the "Golden Age" and all that seems credible because he invented the universe to begin? Does that seem hypocritical?

As long as you take the other examples of the author clarifying their works.

.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
They are.

-Leeland Chee No specification for blurbs. Novel applies to content inside the novel. Blurbs are advertisement, nothing more, and therefore aren't canon. This is one of the topics my mind can't be changed about. Then there's the fact the blurb is contradicted by feats.

To contradicted by feats:
Originally posted by Azronger
A quote applies absolutely always unless it's contradicted by feats. And no, having inferior feats to someone isn't a contradiction in itself, unless both characters' limits have been clearly defined and the one with a quote backing him up is still inferior.

For example: Valkorion has planetary feats, yet Plagueis does not. Plagueis, however, has a quote declaring him the strongest Sith ever and he has never been pushed to his limits, or even close to it, really. Dismissing the quote because of a lack of feats on Plagueis' part is a fallacy and results in automatic concession.

This does not apply to opinions of course, be they from a KMC user or from an author.

Oh I didn't consider the Filoni stuff either. It is an interesting question on where to draw the line I guess, a case-by-case basis based on the person who said the quote's position in the hierarchy of canon makes sense to me then. People like Lucas and Filoni strike me as more significant than authors, video game designers, and actors/stunt coordinators. This will be something I think about once exams are done.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
To contradicted by feats: He then specifies what "everything"means, no mention of blurbs.

That's a nice opinion he has there, fortunately for me his opinion isn't canon, just like those blurbs.

Who's to say Plagueis was never truly tested? Sounds like a BS argument to lend credence to non-canonical sources.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Those clarifications you mentioned are relevant unless the author takes them back later, yes.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
As long as you take the other examples of the author clarifying their works.

Ok, thanks for your input, it's a curious topic.

Definitely.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova


Sunrazer's double standards are LEGENDary. He is a troll.

I have to side with Razer, because many blurbs are no different than Spider-Man villain of the week-esque claims. There's one suggesting the return of Thrawn would be a greater threat than Sidious, Kun or the Sun Crusher. Which is obviously not true.

In regards to author quotes, literally every single author I've ever asked has said their opinions are just opinions and have no legitimate authority.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I have to side with Razer, because many blurbs are no different than Spider-Man villain of the week-esque claims. There's one suggesting the return of Thrawn would be a greater threat than Sidious, Kun or the Sun Crusher. Which is obviously not true.

In regards to author quotes, literally every single author I've ever asked has said their opinions are just opinions and have no legitimate authority. Authors dismissing their opinions as simply opinions is, well, their opinion. It doesn't mean they can't be used in debates.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I have to side with Razer, because many blurbs are no different than Spider-Man villain of the week-esque claims. There's one suggesting the return of Thrawn would be a greater threat than Sidious, Kun or the Sun Crusher. Which is obviously not true.

In regards to author quotes, literally every single author I've ever asked has said their opinions are just opinions and have no legitimate authority.

Oh of course not. I mean, it's Kun. Lmao.

That makes no sense at all, they are clarifying that this is nothing more than a personal opinion and bares none of the authority they had when actually writing their works.

Chris Avellone literally only ever talks about what they had planned going forward from Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords. His versions of the 'True Sith' were never canon, neither is anything else he envisioned. His version of Darth Revan and the actual Darth Revan, are two entirely different beasts.

Originally posted by darthbane77
I take a mixed approach when dealing with author quotes and most accolades.

I use the ones I like and ignore the ones I don't like. ooooooh ok

He also thought that the basilisk war droids were stupid.

Originally posted by ILS
ooooooh ok Uhm...no. lol

Originally posted by AncientPower
That makes no sense at all, they are clarifying that this is nothing more than a personal opinion and bares none of the authority they had when actually writing their works.

Chris Avellone literally only ever talks about what they had planned going forward from Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords. His versions of the 'True Sith' were never canon, neither is anything else he envisioned. His version of Darth Revan and the actual Darth Revan, are two entirely different beasts. Well obviously when there's a contradiction like that they can't be considered, otherwise they're fair game.

Glad to see you're learning.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Glad to see you're learning. Slowly but surely.

So I guess the way to go on this site is to evaluate characters purely based off of feats, while completely ignoring authorial intent, accolades, logic, scaling, quotes, etc, especially if it's your favorite character who happens to have the superior feats but fewer accolades. Because obviously author opinions don't matter, in-universe quotes are automatically unreliable and irrelevant, and out of universe quotes obviously aren't canon either for reasons. So feats only it is 👍

Who said only feats matter ?

Originally posted by nfactor1995
So I guess the way to go on this site is to evaluate characters purely based off of feats, while completely ignoring authorial intent, accolades, logic, scaling, quotes, etc, especially if it's your favorite character who happens to have the superior feats but fewer accolades. Because obviously author opinions don't matter, in-universe quotes are automatically unreliable and irrelevant, and out of universe quotes obviously aren't canon either for reasons. So feats only it is 👍
Nope, accolades and scaling are obviously canon.
We may can use holisticall intent and Author quotes as evidence.

It's funny people often discuss author quotes and opinions as though authors are taking into account the debates of a bunch of nerds on versus forums.

They aren't. They just write books.

BTT: SunRazer has been debunked. He loses by default.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Authors dismissing their opinions as simply opinions is, well, their opinion. It doesn't mean they can't be used in debates.

Originally posted by Trocity
It's funny people often discuss author quotes and opinions as though authors are taking into account the debates of a bunch of nerds on versus forums.

They aren't. They just write books.

Drew does. He doesn't want us nerds to be taking his word as gospel, so he refuses to give clear verdicts half the time. lol

Ngl, that's cool from Drew imo.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Nope, accolades and scaling are obviously canon.
We may can use holisticall intent and Author quotes as evidence.

That's what I've done on quite a few matchups, and I always get that guy (or guys) who pull the whole "none of that (scaling, quotes, accolades etc) matters because the feats don't line up" argument.

It's also funny that as soon as someone says "author quotes are an opinion, not fact", others pretend that the person just said that author quotes are meaningless. You know, meaninglessness and gospel are the two extremes of the spectrum. There are things in the middle.

Although when an author says "this is just my opinion", you really can't consider it as a fact, lol. And especially not if you tout policies such as "it has to proven by feats also" etc. So no double standards from me, but definitely from Mr. "feats have to prove it's correct" and then proceeds to cite author quotes as fact when it contradicts showings.

A "feats only" approach is stupid, anyway. If everything has to be confirmed by feats, then there isn't even a point in having accolades or quotes.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's also funny that as soon as someone says "author quotes are an opinion, not fact", others pretend that the person just said that author quotes are meaningless. You know, meaninglessness and gospel are the two extremes of the spectrum. There are things in the middle.

Although when an author says "this is just my opinion", you really can't consider it as a fact, lol. And especially not if you tout policies such as "it has to proven by feats also" etc. So no double standards from me, but definitely from Mr. "feats have to prove it's correct" and then proceeds to cite author quotes as fact when it contradicts showings.

A "feats only" approach is stupid, anyway. If everything has to be confirmed by feats, then there isn't even a point in having accolades or quotes.

The one thing that's getting me in all of this is the idea that authors aren't the top authority on their OWN works. Like, if I wrote a book, then someone asked me about a matchup between characters A and B (which I created and wrote about in the book), why would I not be the #1 authority on who is superior? I can understand the argument that I can't define crossover matchups from other media, but within the context of my own creations, I don't see who else could have more authority than myself (the author).

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I fail to see what's funny aside from the fact that you're still here.

Originally posted by nfactor1995
The one thing that's getting me in all of this is the idea that authors aren't the top authority on their OWN works. Like, if I wrote a book, then someone asked me about a matchup between characters A and B (which I created and wrote about in the book), why would I not be the #1 authority on who is superior? I can understand the argument that I can't define crossover matchups from other media, but within the context of my own creations, I don't see who else could have more authority than myself (the author).

Well, firstly, Avellone didn't create Revan, and Drew Karpyshyn had contradictory thoughts on Exile vs Revan to Avellone. Avellone thought that Revan could kick the Exile's ass in a duel, yet Drew cited the Exile as likely being better at dueling. Do you see where it gets muddy? And why Drew doesn't want author quotes to be taken as evidence on these forums?

Originally posted by darthbane77
I fail to see what's funny aside from the fact that you're still here.

You're dismissing that on the grounds of author quotes being invalid, which requires you to dismiss all author quotes.

Or else you accept it as valid, in which case you shouldn't be taking author judgments on fights as evidence.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You're dismissing that on the grounds of author quotes being invalid, which requires you to dismiss all author quotes.

Or else you accept it as valid, in which case you shouldn't be taking author judgments on fights as evidence. I think I got confused at some point. I've been using author quotes, so how can I think they're invalid?

It was an author quote being brought up, meaning that you'd either have to accept it (and thus invalidate the author judgments on fight scenarios) or dismiss it and thus dismiss all author quotes.

You're effectively trapped. There's no way around it. Your dismissal was basically a double standard between whether you wanted to use author quotes or not, which is what Beni was laughing at.

An author saying they don't think their word matters is their opinion, that doesn't invalidate quotes concerning the universe as Canon.

They're not Canon, though, lol. Not when they say "it's my opinion". And not when other authors have completely different viewpoints on the matter.