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1. Sabers

2. Force

3. All-Out

Tulak Hord stomps.

Katarn is ragdolled at once, Jaden is not even recognized by Tulak and Mara falls in short order.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Tulak Hord stomps. What if I throw in Corran Horn, Kam Solusar, and X2?

NJO stomps.

Team stomps the featless clown

Hord stomps so hard that Caedus senses it and an heroes.

Damn. Never seen anyone so desperate they claimed their side stomps twice. Lmao.

When any of these three are factually stated to make the likes of KOTOR Revan and Lucien Draay look like complete amatuers as duelists, feel free to come knockin'.

AP is a retard so it makes perfect sense

Even if you take away all his feats, Tulak Hord still has accolades calling him a Legendary Duelist. Thats a step above being called a "Master of all 7 Forms".

Originally posted by carthage
AP is a retard so it makes perfect sense

Hord wins.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Hord stomps so hard that Caedus senses it and an heroes. Ima sound stupid for this, but I've been wondering what "an hero" is exactly.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Ima sound stupid for this, but I've been wondering what "an hero" is exactly. Its a meme about a high schooler who killed himself. One of his friends was grammatically incorrect when trying to say "a hero".

He instead said "an hero", the internet soon caught wind, and thus the phrase "an hero" started being used to describe suicide.

Originally posted by carthage
AP is a retard so it makes perfect sense

The kind of insult you'd expect from someone with absolute no ability to actually win a debate. And only a moron would agree with you.

How's your irrelevancy going?

Hord in all, pretty clean win in Force

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Even if you take away all his feats, Tulak Hord still has accolades calling him a Legendary Duelist. Thats a step above being called a "Master of all 7 Forms".
Mara isn't just a master of 7 forms, lmao.
She would shit on Master duelists.

Tulak Hord is the greatest duelist among an era of Sith duelists who render KotOR era Jedi and Sith as novices, an era of Jedi stated to be the combative prime of the Jedi Order.

There's no way Hord doesn't wreck them.

The NJO team, lmao.

Yup, NJO.
I don't take Traya's hype seriously.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The kind of insult you'd expect from someone with absolute no ability to actually win a debate. And only a moron would agree with you.

How's your irrelevancy going?

You've got zero basis for any claim Hord can win when he is featless. So yeah keep calling other morons when you have **** all evidence for your claims as always

Originally posted by carthage
You've got zero basis for any claim Hord can win when he is featless. So yeah keep calling other morons when you have **** all evidence for your claims as always He isn't featless.

He beat Khem Val, pulled an Endar Spire out of the sky, and broke the Siege of Yn single-handedly.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Yup, NJO.
I don't take Traya's hype seriously. Why?

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Why?
She doesn't knows sh!t about the ancients, lol. Or would you say Kas'im > Revan as duelist?

Originally posted by Ursumeles
She doesn't knows sh!t about the ancients, lol. Or would you say Kas'im > Revan as duelist? First of all, the Holocron that Bane checked out was damaged, which is why it stopped working when Bane was done with it.

Second of all, not all Holocrons are based around combat, in Revan's case, it was more about Philosophy and such. Revan was the inspiration for the rule of two.

Thirdly, Kreia wouldn't have said something just to say it, shes clearly studied HUNDREDS of holocrons. She knows quite a bit about the ancients. You also can't compare two different people viewing two different holocrons as the same, thats just dumb.

Fourth, whatever the hell his name is supported Kreia's statements regarding the ancients, and I don't wanna hear a single idiotic comment saying "Well, they were just setting everything up for the next game, so it doesn't count." Thats stupid and illogical.

If you can dispute something, cool. But don't just blindly deny stuff just because you wanna be a skeptic. Being a skeptic is fine, when you have something to justify you being skeptical. In this situation, thats not the case.

Put up or shut up.

You mean Avellone?
And no, )they were just setting up stuff for the new game" isn't dumb-it's a fact. Avellone thought of the Ancients as galaxy shapers, lmfao.
Also, what brings her studiying holocrons? It is unlikely that Tulak was in many of them, and she also didn't saw him fighting, lol.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
You mean Avellone?
And no, )they were just setting up stuff for the new game" isn't dumb-it's a fact. Avellone thought of the Ancients as galaxy shapers, lmfao.
Also, what brings her studiying holocrons? It is unlikely that Tulak was in many of them, and she also didn't saw him fighting, lol. Tulak Hord had a specific holocron based around lightsaber combat.

It being a fact doesn't make Avellone's word any less meaningful, whether it was meant for the next game is totally and completely irrelevant to the point it shouldn't even be brought up in a debate.

All of the Holocrons in Atris' red room? Kreia studied them.

Avellone and Kreia's word is worth more then any of ours.

If you can't prove that Kreia's words are wrong, we are done here.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Tulak Hord had a specific holocron based around lightsaber combat.

It being a fact doesn't make Avellone's word any less meaningful, whether it was meant for the next game is totally and completely irrelevant to the point it shouldn't even be brought up in a debate.

All of the Holocrons in Atris' red room? Kreia studied them.

Avellone and Kreia's word is worth more then any of ours.

If you can't prove that Kreia's words are wrong, we are done here.
Cool. Traya still can't rate him based on that.

I don't take his word as fact, as his other opinions on the ancients are clearly wrong(Galaxy-shaping, as example). I also don't take Tom Veitch's opinion that Sidious can't generate Force Storms whenever he want seriously. Also, the quote seems to be hyperbole. I mean, Mace basically said that only Kenobi could defeat GG. I agree that Hord is > Mid-Game Exile and Traya as duelist, but not so vastly, lmfao.

I know. In how many of them were informations about Hord?

LMFAO, you must prove that her word is right.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Cool. Traya still can't rate him based on that.

I don't take his word as fact, as his other opinions on the ancients are clearly wrong(Galaxy-shaping, as example). I also don't take Tom Veitch's opinion that Sidious can't generate Force Storms whenever he want seriously. Also, the quote seems to be hyperbole. I mean, Mace basically said that only Kenobi could defeat GG. I agree that Hord is > Mid-Game Exile and Traya as duelist, but not so vastly, lmfao.

I know. In how many of them were informations about Hord?

LMFAO, you must prove that her word is right.

Why can't she?

Thats not how an argument works, I provided evidence, stop disputing them without evidence of your own, or stop trying to argue a pointless point.

I doubt he meamt galaxy-shaping in a literal sense.

The sith were shaping the Galaxy, they owned the damn galaxy back then.

Of course you don't think its vastly.

You think that Dooku and Traya are in the same league.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Why can't she?

Thats not how an argument works, I provided evidence, stop disputing them without evidence of your own, or stop trying to argue a pointless point.

I doubt he meamt galaxy-shaping in a literal sense.

The sith were shaping the Galaxy, they owned the damn galaxy back then.

Of course you don't think its vastly.

You think that Dooku and Traya are in the same league.
It is, and I said why I don't take her word seriously.

Valid argument. But Kreia and Avellone also seem to think Ancients >>>>>> Nihilus, so I don't take their word as fact value, like I said.

Because we have no concrete evidence for it being vastly.

As Force-Users? Yes, I do. But so do others, like SunRazer. I hope you don't think that you are comparable to him as debater.

The Sith didn't own the galaxy, lmfao.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
It is, and I said why I don't take her word seriously.

Valid argument. But Kreia and Avellone also seem to think Ancients >>>>>> Nihilus, so I don't take their word as fact value, like I said.

Because we have no concrete evidence for it being vastly.

As Force-Users? Yes, I do. But so do others, like SunRazer. I hope you don't think that you are comparable to him as debater. It honestly depends on what me and Nova are debating about.

He avoided an argument with me when I was talking about Scourge being better then Meetra on Dromund Kaas. (Which I'm happy to continue, Bud ^^.)

We do though... Even if you ignore his feats, and Kreia/Avellone's word, he is still stated be a legendary duelist.

Meetra doesn't have that many accolades revolving around dueling.

I mean, sure, she fought through the Sith Academy, but we don't know how she did that, so we can't just assume that she killed them all with her saber.

@SunRazer ...The Ancient Sith did pretty much own the Galaxy unopposed, for the most part.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
It honestly depends on what me and Nova are debating about.

He avoided an argument with me when I was talking about Scourge being better then Meetra on Dromund Kaas. (Which I'm happy to continue, Bud ^^.)

We do though... Even if you ignore his feats, and Kreia/Avellone's word, he is still stated be a legendary duelist.

Meetra doesn't have that many accolades revolving around dueling.

I mean, sure, she fought through the Sith Academy, but we don't know how she did that, so we can't just assume that she killed them all with her saber.
I do not really care about the sh!t you and Nova debate At least not when we debate something other, lol.

Also, KoTOR II Exile > TOR Scourge > DK Novel Meetra > DK Novel Scourge

...I don't ignore his feat. He busted an army. The Exile, and also Kyle, did the same.
Also, Vrook and Saesee are legendary duelists, lmfao. But as I said, he is prolly > Mid-Game Exile as duelist,but that isn't enough to beat the NJO trio.
I rate the Exile not highly because she bested an army, but because she overcame her power-disadvantadge against Traya through superior Skill, on an immense DS Nexus and while prolly exhausted. Traya practically blitzed Atton, who has beaten Sion.

LMFAO @ Scourge > Meetra, there isn't a single time that Meetra doesn't perform better than he does.

Originally posted by AncientPower
LMFAO @ Scourge > Meetra, there isn't a single time that Meetra doesn't perform better than he does. They performed exactly the same in when they fought the Guard.

Scourge performed better in the fight against Nyriss.

Scourge performed better in the fight against Nyriss?

Did we read the same fight?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Scourge performed better in the fight against Nyriss?

Did we read the same fight? Yes.

Point at every single time Meetra did better, and I'll debate you on it.

Meetra was brought to her knees, while Scourge merely got knocked off-balance.

NJO team most likely.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
They performed exactly the same in when they fought the Guard.

Scourge performed better in the fight against Nyriss.

You've obviously never read the book. Scourge kills 2, Revan kills 2(but he runs ahead to face the Emperor), Meetra kills 3.

Furthermore, the environment of the citadel is a dark side nexus which is confirmed by none other than Lord Scourge himself. There is no argument.

Meetra > hindered Meetra > amped Scourge > Scourge.

Back on-topic:











He's just holistically far beyond their league in the Force and sourcebooks support Kreia's historical knowledge regarding his lightsaber abilities. One need only look at Exar Kun's great leap in lightsaber skill after obtaining the Dark Holocron to recognise that the ancient Sith's lightsaber prowess was indeed far beyond the TOTJ-KOTOR era's abilities.

Eh I don't give a sh!t about holistic nonsense. His best feats are bringing down a very large ship and helping to break a siege on a Jedi army. Very impressive but not enough to place him over this group without more details.

He broke the siege with Khem Val at his side and then absorbed the spirits of the Jedi he killed. His mastery of the Force vastly outstrips everybody else here combined, his lightsaber prowess is quite possibly > Exar Kun's.

Oh and Feat Wars is moronic, honestly.

"He broke the siege with Khem Val at his side"

Yes. He broke an ongoing siege. He turned an ongoing battle in his army's favor. As I said, very impressive. Raskta/Kas'im level in fact.

"and then absorbed the spirits of the Jedi he killed."

Unless you can quantify that it's simply another gold star for Hord.

"His mastery of the Force vastly outstrips everybody else here combined"

Quote that places his mastery above Mara, Korr and Kyle's or somebody above the aforementioned individuals?

"his lightsaber prowess is quite possibly > Exar Kun's."

His ability as a technical duelist surpasses Kun's according to Kreia. There's no in reason universe for Kreia to possess such knowledge.

"Oh and Feat Wars is moronic, honestly."

You're free to think what you like. I find in a highly contradicted/contested medium like Star Wars it's the best path.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You've obviously never read the book. Scourge kills 2, Revan kills 2(but he runs ahead to face the Emperor), Meetra kills 3.

Furthermore, the environment of the citadel is a dark side nexus which is confirmed by none other than Lord Scourge himself. There is no argument.

Meetra > hindered Meetra > amped Scourge > Scourge. The one that Scourge fought was the best Guard that Vitiate had.

Being forced down to one knee isn't holding her ground.

If she was focusing on Meetra, wtf was Scourge doing, maybe a sneak attack or something.

It's better then being forced to stumble back by the mere force of Nyriss's blows while her efforts are divided.

He broke the siege, because he turned up and killed them all. You're applying context that doesn't exist.



Quantify? Pretty simple stuff:



If by that you mean ignoring all context and authorial intent, then it most certainly is not. Feat Wars is what turned this place into the cesspool of agendas that it is.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
The one that Scourge fought was the best Guard that Vitiate had.

Yarri was the Captain, yet nothing is ever stated placing her above the rest of the Honor Guard. She could simply be in said position due to seniority or obedience.

Originally posted by AncientPower
He broke the siege, because he turned up and killed them all. You're applying context that doesn't exist.



Quantify? Pretty simple stuff:



If by that you mean ignoring all context and authorial intent, then it most certainly is not. Feat Wars is what turned this place into the cesspool of agendas that it is.

The quote itself is contradicted by actual events since he had Khem Val at his side. It isn't literal as he obviously didn't solo an army of Jedi. His efforts were what led to the ultimate breaking of the siege and without him it may not have been possible which would explain the wording of the text.

Key word there being " in its place" meaning that the techniques may have been similar in function but fundamentally different.

That's rich coming from the one of ( if not the ) biggest Exar Kun wankers in all of Star Wars debating.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Being forced down to one knee isn't holding her ground.

If she was focusing on Meetra, wtf was Scourge doing, maybe a sneak attack or something.

She's said to hold her ground in lightsaber skill but is overwhelmed by Nyriss' strength and forced to a knee.

Scourge stumbled over despite her divided attention and Force Pushed Nyriss whilst Nyriss was focusing down Meetra, even then Nyriss was barely nudged by his efforts and his follow-up charge failed because she Force Pushed him so hard he went head over heels and was knocked dizzy. Meanwhile Meetra absorbed most of Nyriss' lightning but was knocked off of her feet.

All of this on a dark side nexus, an advantage for Scourge and a disadvantage for Meetra.

Conceded.

I definitely agree with you on Hord tho.

Originally posted by AncientPower
She's said to hold her ground in lightsaber skill but is overwhelmed by Nyriss' strength and forced to a knee.

Scourge stumbled over despite her divided attention and Force Pushed Nyriss whilst Nyriss was focusing down Meetra, even then Nyriss was barely nudged by his efforts and his follow-up charge failed because she Force Pushed him so hard he went head over heels and was knocked dizzy. Meanwhile Meetra absorbed most of Nyriss' lightning but was knocked off of her feet.

All of this on a dark side nexus, an advantage for Scourge and a disadvantage for Meetra.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
The quote itself is contradicted by actual events since he had Khem Val at his side. It isn't literal as he obviously didn't solo an army of Jedi. His efforts were what led to the ultimate breaking of the siege and without him it may not have been possible which would explain the wording of the text.

Key word there being " in its place" meaning that the techniques may have been similar in function but fundamentally different.

That's rich coming from the one of ( if not the ) biggest Exar Kun wankers in all of Star Wars debating.

Khem Val was at Hord's side whilst he single-handedly broke the siege against an army of a thousand Jedi, which isn't contradictory in the slightest if you actually comprehend the two statements as a whole. You're literally dismissing it without any reason.

Which isn't remotely the point, Tulak Hord absorbed the spirits of the Jedi he killed at Yn and Chabosh, using one of many rituals he had mastered.

Am I meant to care about that? I always apply context to my Kun arguments, it's the counter-arguments that go out of their way to distort the truth.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
I do not really care about the sh!t you and Nova debate At least not when we debate something other, lol.

Also, KoTOR II Exile > TOR Scourge > DK Novel Meetra > DK Novel Scourge

...I don't ignore his feat. He busted an army. The Exile, and also Kyle, did the same.
Also, Vrook and Saesee are legendary duelists, lmfao. But as I said, he is prolly > Mid-Game Exile as duelist,but that isn't enough to beat the NJO trio.
I rate the Exile not highly because she bested an army, but because she overcame her power-disadvantadge against Traya through superior Skill, on an immense DS Nexus and while prolly exhausted. Traya practically blitzed Atton, who has beaten Sion.

When is Vrook described as a Legendary duelist?

I mean, its great that she did that, and thats all well and good, but its arguable that Meetra was superior to Traya in every way when they fought, including command of the force.

While Meetra fights through 20-30 Sith + Sion and Traya, Hord is fighting through hundreds of Jedi at a single time.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Khem Val was at Hord's side whilst he single-handedly broke the siege against an army of a thousand Jedi, which isn't contradictory in the slightest if you actually comprehend the two statements as a whole. You're literally dismissing it without any reason.

Which isn't remotely the point, Tulak Hord absorbed the spirits of the Jedi he killed at Yn and Chabosh, using one of many rituals he had mastered.

Am I meant to care about that? I always apply context to my Kun arguments, it's the counter-arguments that go out of their way to distort the truth.

So, what? Khem stood there doing nothing as Hord was fighting a bunch of Jedi? :/

It is the point because if the way Hord absorbed the spirits isn't like the way we know Nox and others do then we can't quantify the effect that had on his power. Just that it did indeed have one.

Yeah, it's distorting the truth to say that Luke may not have been able to defend against the techniques Kun used against him when that's exactly what happened to Revan and Malak when Vitiate used a technique they didn't know how to defend against against them.

You can't be a skeptic without any evidence to the contrary.

Hord is just as powerful as everyone says, and thats the end of it.

Unless someone can literally debunk everything said.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
You can't be a skeptic without any evidence to the contrary.

Hord is just as powerful as everyone says, and thats the end of it.

Unless someone can literally debunk everything said.

Hord is powerful, I never doubted it. I just stated that he has nothing to place him over this team which is still true even after your accolade dump.

None of it needs to be debunked for the oppositions position to remain the same.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
When is Vrook described as a Legendary duelist?

I mean, its great that she did that, and thats all well and good, but its arguable that Meetra was superior to Traya in every way when they fought, including command of the force.

While Meetra fights through 20-30 Sith + Sion and Traya, Hord is fighting through hundreds of Jedi at a single time.

Vrook isn't, Kavar is stated to be the famed Jedi Guardian during the Mandalorian Wars by Canderous Ordo. Vrook is confirmed to be > Kavar.

Meetra defeated Traya, despite Traya's superior power whilst amped by the Trayus Core. Furthermore, both Sion and none other than Traya herself state that the Jedi Exile surpasses Traya in the Force.

She fought an entire legion of elite Sith and the Triumvirate's strongest guardians, actually.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
So, what? Khem stood there doing nothing as Hord was fighting a bunch of Jedi? :/

It is the point because if the way Hord absorbed the spirits isn't like the way we know Nox and others do then we can't quantify the effect that had on his power. Just that it did indeed have one.

Yeah, it's distorting the truth to say that Luke may not have been able to defend against the techniques Kun used against him when that's exactly what happened to Revan and Malak when Vitiate used a technique they didn't know how to defend against against them.

Or, Tulak Hord did the vast majority of the killing whilst Khem Val was fighting by his side. Which makes sense because Hord was the one who defeated him in the first place.

He outright absorbed the spirits of the Jedi army he left in trails of blood after killing them, he didn't need to bind them to him, because he devoured their power.

You're clearly way off when that is a mere fraction of the debate at hand.

If Khem aided him, however small of a contribution that would have been it invalidates the interpretation that Hord accomplished these feats by himself. He may have been the main factor in such accomplishments but he had help.

He "devoured their spirits" according the quotes you provided, not their power. And as I've already mentioned we don't know to what extent this would have empowered him.

It seems to be the main point that you always ends up avoiding from what I've seen, tbh.

Are you seriously this dense? Khem Val himself is affording the accolade to Tulak Hord, clearly because it was Hord that did the heavy lifting. It invalidates nothing, you are simply reaching.



It amplified his powers, that's the only relevant part.

I'm the one who points out that all his defensive techniques failed him, what are you rambling on about?

How does Khem being present not invalidate the interpretation that Tulak was alone in accomplishing these feats. At the very least it opens up the idea that Tulak had support other then Khem aiding him.

It's relevant and I'm not denying it would have helped to increase his power but I'm saying that we can't know exactly how much this technique increased his power after killing a rival Force user.

Yet you never acknowledge then that it wouldn't have been about Kun overpowering him but simply Luke lacking knowledge on how to defend against it.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Vrook isn't, Kavar is stated to be the famed Jedi Guardian during the Mandalorian Wars by Canderous Ordo. Vrook is confirmed to be > Kavar.

Meetra defeated Traya, despite Traya's superior power whilst amped by the Trayus Core. Furthermore, both Sion and none other than Traya herself state that the Jedi Exile surpasses Traya in the Force.

She fought an entire legion of elite Sith and the Triumvirate's strongest guardians, actually. Kreia has Hord > Karness Murr, Exar Kun, Darth Revan.

She states he is the greatest of the ancient Sith duelists, which may imply superiority to Exar Kun.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Damn. Never seen anyone so desperate they claimed their side stomps twice. Lmao.



Anyway, it's pretty much impossible to tell. All Hord has is hype.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
How does Khem being present not invalidate the interpretation that Tulak was alone in accomplishing these feats. At the very least it opens up the idea that Tulak had support other then Khem aiding him.

It's relevant and I'm not denying it would have helped to increase his power but I'm saying that we can't know exactly how much this technique increased his power after killing a rival Force user.

Yet you never acknowledge then that it wouldn't have been about Kun overpowering him but simply Luke lacking knowledge on how to defend against it.

No it doesn't, you're just massively reaching, Khem Val is the one who states Tulak Hord was single-handedly responsible because he was the only other one around. Reading comprehension, please.

Well given how much more powerful Nox was with her binded spirits(From getting one-shotted by Thanaton to dominating him),and given that Hord outright devours his instead of merely binding them, yeh it's damned significant.

Except for the fact it is stated to be a 'titanic duel' of Force powers, which Luke loses. Furthermore numerous quotes make it clear Spirit!Kun > Luke regardless.

I'm off to bed. Will respond tomorrow.

Originally posted by AncientPower
No it doesn't, you're just massively reaching, Khem Val is the one who states Tulak Hord was single-handedly responsible because he was the only other one around. Reading comprehension, please.

Well given how much more powerful Nox was with her binded spirits(From getting one-shotted by Thanaton to dominating him),and given that Hord outright devours his instead of merely binding them, yeh it's damned significant.

Except for the fact it is stated to be a 'titanic duel' of Force powers, which Luke loses. Furthermore numerous quotes make it clear Spirit!Kun > Luke regardless.

Eh, I'll make one more response before heading off.

How does Khem being the one to state Hord was "single-handedly responsible" mean he was the only other person around?

We don't know how much power Hord gets from devouring those spirits. Whether it's all of it or only a fraction is relevant to assess how powerful he may have become along with the number of enemy Force users he used this technique on.

That's doesn't mean Luke didn't ultimately lose because he was unable to defend against a technique he didn't know how to defend against. I'd love to see some of these Spirit Kun > Luke quotes tbh.

Read both of the quotes and actually try to comprehend what they mean when put side-by-side. Tulak Hord broke the siege of Yn against an army of a thousand Jedi, with Khem Val at his side. Khem Val states Hord did this single-handedly because him amd Hord were obviously the only ones there to break it.

It is clearly greater than the effects of Force-walking, we do know how many there were, the number of Jedi is stated in the above quotes.

Which only furthers how much more knowledgable Kun is.





The above can imply that Luke would become like Emperor Palpatine or Exar Kun if he decided to abuse his powers. Though more conservative views would likely claim otherwise.

What? No it doesn't... It implies the two Dark Siders, at least one of which tried to convert Luke, were now laughing at him when he was so close to giving into it.

It was a psychological manifestation or warning of what would happen to him if he did.

Become a Dark Side focal point much like Palpatine or Exar Kun? Sure... Doesn't really mean much with regards to Kun's power, nor does it imply Kun's power > Luke's.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Read both of the quotes and actually try to comprehend what they mean when put side-by-side. Tulak Hord broke the siege of Yn against an army of a thousand Jedi, with Khem Val at his side. Khem Val states Hord did this single-handedly because him amd Hord were obviously the only ones there to break it.

It is clearly greater than the effects of Force-walking, we do know how many there were, the number of Jedi is stated in the above quotes.

Which only furthers how much more knowledgable Kun is.





The above can imply that Luke would become like Emperor Palpatine or Exar Kun if he decided to abuse his powers. Though more conservative views would likely claim otherwise.

You understand that they very quote contradict itself. It states Hord accomplished these feats singlehandedly yet it states Khmer Val fought at his side. He didn't fight alone. Your interpretation is invalidated.

Why is it clearly greater then the effects of Force walking? There's no basis for that unless you believe he gained all of the power of tens Force used after consuming their spirit which isn't indicated anywhere.

Yes but it lends credence to the idea that the only reason Luke lost was because he couldn't defend himself against whatever techniques Exar Kun employed against him.

The quotes don't suggest that at all. The first merely references Kyp's apprehension at such a powerful force existing while the second merely shows that Exar Kun had been a great challenge like Palpatine but not that he was an equivalent one.

The quote said Khem fought by his side during the battle of Chabbosh, it said nothing about Yn. My interpretation is Hord solo'd the siege force, then when he went on to attack Chabbosh, Khem was with him, but did nothing during the Jedi's attack. Pretty easy to see that

Well, since Khem Val said it I guess it must be true.

Hord stomps!

Just kidding. Also the SWTOR:E is an in-universe source (according to the introductory page), meaning it's basically just hype as well. Poor Tulak.

Originally posted by ILS
Well, since Khem Val said it I guess it must be true.

Hord stomps!

Just kidding. Also the SWTOR:E is an in-universe source (according to the introductory page), meaning it's basically just hype as well. Poor Tulak. Yes, since Khem Val said it, it must be true. Without sarcasm. No one here can come up with anything that invalidates what he, Kreia, or Avellone says, or the tons of quotes about his power.

Its like the whole argument about Novel Blurbs. "They're usually incorrect", based on what exactly? What invalidates what Khem Val or Traya says? Sure, there is such a thing as exaggeration, but the stuff about Hord is consistent, from many different characters proclaiming how great and powerful he was, books written about him, and even eyewitness accounts from his most trusted men.

People need to learn to stop being skeptics when there is no need to be a skeptic.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Yes, since Khem Val said it, it must be true. Without sarcasm. No one here can come up with anything that invalidates what he, Kreia, or Avellone says, or the tons of quotes about his power. Since when does one need to invalidate word of mouth? Do you believe everything you hear?
Hence why the human race is getting fatter, dumber and weaker with unrivalled speed in all of history.

Being sceptical used to be a survival mechanism which was the difference between being eaten and living through the night. Now it's grounds for being weird or unreasonable, God forbid you asked for some evidence before you went along with something.

There is no difference between you believing Khem Val, and you believing me when I say that I've witnessed our first contact with aliens.

Originally posted by ILS
when I say that I've witnessed our first contact with aliens.
You did? Cooool!

Originally posted by Ursumeles
You did? Cooool! Yep. I barely convinced them not to atomise us by playing chart music until they left.

Cool, thx!
But Tulak Hord would solo them all by himself, with his MEGA-SABERSKILLS!

Originally posted by ILS
Since when does one need to invalidate word of mouth? Do you believe everything you hear?
Hence why the human race is getting fatter, dumber and weaker with unrivalled speed in all of history.

Being sceptical used to be a survival mechanism which was the difference between being eaten and living through the night. Now it's grounds for being weird or unreasonable, God forbid you asked for some evidence before you went along with something.

There is no difference between you believing Khem Val, and you believing me when I say that I've witnessed our first contact with aliens. Uh... Yeah. Its stupid to be skeptical for no reason. Khem Val and Traya are supported by tons of accolades and evidence, thats the difference.

Not even mentioning the fact that its an in-universe source, and is also supported by Avellone.

I definitely, 100% believe Kreia, Avellone, and Khem Val way more then I believe anyone on this site, thats for sure.

And why shouldn't I? Theres never been a single source describing Hord as less then what he is believed.

Its more clear-cut then a lot of the other Ancients.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Uh... Yeah. Its stupid to be skeptical for no reason. Khem Val and Traya are supported by tons of accolades and evidence, thats the difference.

Not even mentioning the fact that its an in-universe source, and is also supported by Avellone.

I definitely, 100% believe Kreia, Avellone, and Khem Val way more then I believe anyone on this site, thats for sure.

And why shouldn't I? Theres never been a single source describing Hord as less then what he is believed.

Its more clear-cut then a lot of the other Ancients. If the accolades are verifiable and support your point, you would be better off using them. I'm sceptical of Tulak Hord soloing an army of Jedi and lifting a huge ship because, for all his accolades, the only quotes that truly supports these ideas are from Khem Val. Khem Val hasn't brought any evidence forth to make me believe his stories from a long time ago.

He could be delusional, biased, exaggerating, lying or just wrong.

Originally posted by ILS
If the accolades are verifiable and support your point, you would be better off using them. I'm sceptical of Tulak Hord soloing an army of Jedi and lifting a huge ship because, for all his accolades, the only quotes that truly supports these ideas are from Khem Val. Khem Val hasn't brought any evidence forth to make me believe his stories from a long time ago.

He could be delusional, biased, exaggerating, lying or just wrong. Why do you believe he would lie though? Do you have any reasoning behind that?

Its not just Khem Val, either, there are a few other sources that talk about Hord soloing the Siege of Yn.

Either way, I just feel like its better to believe them, because they give us no reason not to believe them. In fact, Khem Val becomes incredibly loyal to your character, so there's reason to believe that he's telling the truth, and not exaggerating.

Until Khem Val, Kreia or any other sources are PROVEN wrong, I think its better to believe them. Because every single accolade says that he's powerful and a legendary duelist.

Plus, Khem Val is an in-universe source, which gives him way more credibility then anyone on KMC has as far as Star Wars goes. I feel like, if its an in-universe quote that hasn't been retconned or disproven, its much better to believe them, rather then not,

You can believe what you want though.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Why do you believe he would lie though? Do you have any reasoning behind that? For one, it's not my job to prove a negative. "Prove he isn't telling the truth" is asking me to disprove your point. A point which hasn't yet been proven in the first place.

In other words, you need to show me that Khem Val is accurate and objective in what he is saying. You can't measure, predict or make any use of something Khem Val said by it's self, which is why we're having a pointless discussion about if we think he's lying or not. It doesn't get us any closer to a real piece of evidence.

As I said, Khem Val could be biased (because he reveres his master), exaggerating (because he's excited/biased), forgetful (it's been a long time), lying (for any number of reasons) or just wrong (his account of the events could simply be inaccurate because they are only from his perspective).

There are so many factors that could disrupt the validity of his statement that it makes it virtually worthless.
None I have seen in this thread or elsewhere allude to him soloing anything. I'm sure he killed a lot of Jedi, but it was with an army at his back.
Sure. But when someone on KMC is using out-of-universe information, or what is plainly shown to us through the media, their stance becomes stronger than someone who is relying on word of mouth.

ILS, that's not how proof works. An in-universe source is always acceptable when it's from SWTOR and we like what it tells us.

Originally posted by ILS
For one, it's not my job to prove a negative. "Prove he isn't telling the truth" is asking me to disprove your point. A point which hasn't yet been proven in the first place.

In other words, you need to show me that Khem Val is accurate and objective in what he is saying. You can't measure, predict or make any use of something Khem Val said by it's self, which is why we're having a pointless discussion about if we think he's lying or not. It doesn't get us any closer to a real piece of evidence.

As I said, Khem Val could be biased (because he reveres his master), exaggerating (because he's excited/biased), forgetful (it's been a long time), lying (for any number of reasons) or just wrong (his account of the events could simply be inaccurate because they are only from his perspective).

There are so many factors that could disrupt the validity of his statement that it makes it virtually worthless.
None I have seen in this thread or elsewhere allude to him soloing anything. I'm sure he killed a lot of Jedi, but it was with an army at his back.
Sure. But when someone on KMC is using out-of-universe information, or what is plainly shown to us through the media, their stance becomes stronger than someone who is relying on word of mouth. No, you said you didn't believe Khem Val's word was trustworthy, I asked you why? Because oddly enough, power levels are rarely exaggerrated in star wars. Its not even just Khem Val, Hord is consistent in every single one of his accolades. He is confirmed to have beaten at least 2 powerhouses in Khem Val and Aloysius Kallig, as well as the person he beat in the Kaggath, who is unknown to history.

Besides that, he has tons of accolades stating his power in the force, and especially his skills with a lightsaber.

Just because Hord was Khem Val's master, doesn't give him reason enough to brag to someone he barely knows, multiple times on multiple different occasions.

I don't care what anyone has ever seen in the media IRL, its irrelevant.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
ILS, that's not how proof works. An in-universe source is always acceptable when it's from SWTOR and we like what it tells us. I also consider a few novel blurbs acceptable, like the one that states Caedus is more powerful then Vader.

I mean, I'm sure you guys have many reasons to distrust Khem Val's word, such as:

Originally posted by The_Tempest
ILS, that's not how proof works. An in-universe source is always acceptable when it's from SWTOR and we like what it tells us. f*ck

Originally posted by Jmanghan
No, you said you didn't believe Khem Val's word was trustworthy, I asked you why?And I told you:

-His word is just that: his word. Just because he said something, it doesn't mean it is true.
-He could be biased
-He could be exaggerating
-He could be lying
-He could be delusional

Again, I gave you the alien example. I could come out and say aliens are real, I played poker with a martian before it probed me up the butt. I might seem genuine and convincing, and have no good reason to lie, but you wouldn't believe me. And if you did, you would be branded insane right alongside me.

This, logically, isn't any different. I would go as far as to say you are a danger to yourself if you believe anything on good faith before getting real evidence for it.
He's consistently hyped to be badass, no doubt. And we can conclude that he was just that. What I'm asking for is actual proof that he lifted the Endar Spire or killed an army of Jedi by himself.

And that is what you can't give me.
Again, that doesn't prove anything specific.

Sure it does. He was in awe of his master. Does, "As wise as Yoda and as powerful as Windu" ring any bells? Just like that example of word of mouth could have, and turned out to be, very wrong, so could Khem Val's.

I meant Star Wars media. If we, the audience, saw Hord killing an army of Jedi by himself, I would believe it. Not because someone said it, because it was verified before my very eyes.

Anyway, I don't see this going anywhere. As you said:

You may have the last word.

Team stomps

Kyle or Mara solo.

Hord's supporting showings are non-existent. We have only Khem's word and one Sith's interpretations. There's nothing that details his feats in any real scope and nothing that fleshes them out. He is one big hype train. Maybe in time we get more discussion of where he falls, but the current sources are horribly bad.

... We're not going to get any more sources regarding Hord...

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Hord's supporting showings are non-existent. We have only Khem's word and one Sith's interpretations. There's nothing that details his feats in any real scope and nothing that fleshes them out. He is one big hype train. Maybe in time we get more discussion of where he falls, but the current sources are horribly bad. Ok, you don't believe the hype.

I choose to believe the hype.

We done here?

Great.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
... We're not going to get any more sources regarding Hord...
Then I guess he'll always just be hype.