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Ahsoka as of The Clone Wars: Season 5.
Ezra as of Rebels: Season 3.

Canon only, battle takes place on Felucia. Who wins?

Ahsoka, but I dunno so much about S3...

Feat-wise, I don't think Ezra has shown that much so far (besides mind-controlling that AT-ST dude). He has been stated to have grown stronger, though.

Ah, okay, thanks.
Ahsoka contending wirh GG and Asajj is still better.

Ashoka easy, Bridger hasnt shown all that much in the feats category yet

Remember to vote in the poll, folks.

S2 Ezra was fighting evenly with the Seventh Sister who herself contended with Ahsoka so assuming Ezra's grown significally towards season 3 then he should be slightly ahead of Season 5 Ahsoka.

Ahsoka... and what the Seventh Sister did was get stomped, not contend.

Even if, that would be an inconcistent feat.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
S2 Ezra was fighting evenly with the Seventh Sister who herself contended with Ahsoka so assuming Ezra's grown significally towards season 3 then he should be slightly ahead of Season 5 Ahsoka.
https://i.imgflip.com/1fir6r.gif
https://i.imgflip.com/1firdg.gif

Ahsoka creams him.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
https://i.imgflip.com/1fir6r.gif
https://i.imgflip.com/1firdg.gif Yeah Ahsoka wins. DMB's comment made me laugh more than it should have, lol.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Ahsoka... and what the Seventh Sister did was get stomped, not contend.

That's why she lasted 50 seconds? It easy to take the last part of the fight and say it's a stomp while completely neglecting the rest of it. Anyway, the Seventh Sister contended more with Ahsoka than S5 Ahsoka ever did with Grievous and Ezra's grown significally since the point he duelled evenly with the Seventh Sister.

https://media2.giphy.com/media/33iqmp5ATXT5m/200w.gif

Originally posted by |King Joker|
https://media2.giphy.com/media/33iqmp5ATXT5m/200w.gif

Gif's aren't going to save you Joker

Neither will continuing to post save your reputation Duelist...

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Neither will continuing to post save your reputation Duelist...

I could care less about my reputation, I put out an argument and now they'll have to counter it or doesn't it work that way? I can think of a few people that were yesterday hammering on the fact you actually need to counter it or else nobody takes it seriously.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
I could care less about my reputation, I put out an argument and now they'll have to counter it or doesn't it work that way?

How long have you been on KMC?

Nah, only inferiors have to counter. People like Ant don't even need to deign to respond and they still win arguments.

That's just how it works here.

Stay on topic.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Stay on topic.

My salt knows no bounds fegit.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
How long have you been on KMC?

Nah, only inferiors have to counter. People like Ant don't even need to deign to respond and they still win arguments.

That's just how it works here.

What does it matter?

Well that would only confirm how laughable it apparently is here.

Oh now they don't? Remember yesterday? Yeah all of you guys were going nuts about the fact that I didn't respond properly to DMB/Joker

Dude, the thing was that you were like: "Hur, dur, your argument is shit, nobody cares about it!". If you just wouldn't respond, nobody would have a problem with that.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
That's why she lasted 50 seconds? It easy to take the last part of the fight and say it's a stomp while completely neglecting the rest of it.
Alright, let's look at the rest of the context.

1. Ahsoka fighting both the Seventh Sister and Fifth Brother was stated to never be in any trouble at all in their fight. Then on Malachor when she had the help of the Eighth Brother, she wasn't making any headway against Ahsoka and she even Force pushes them both back several meters at once. So even with the aid of another inquisitor the Seventh Sister isn't a threat to Ahsoka and is still forced on the defensive.

2. Ahsoka landed physical and force blows numerous times on the Seventh Sister in that fight only to be distracted from pressing an offensive edge by either the Fifth Brother, or by Ahsoka just not giving enough of a **** and deactivating her weapons. She landed some pretty nice offbalancing blows numerous times in the fight and never followed up on them either due to interference or disinterest.

3. The Seventh Sister met Ahsoka's offensive 1v1 for 4 seconds while the fifth brother was being a derp, then got physically punted several meters back by Ahsoka smacking her upside the head with her pommel, then met Ahsoka's offensive for about six seconds before they dicked around and talked, then about seven seconds before the Fifth Bro came rushing back in and Ahsoka hurled her away with the Force, then she dueled her six more seconds and Ahsoka kicked her to her knees, then Ahsoka clowned her. So the longest the Seventh Sister actually met Ahsoka in combat at once was around seven seconds. (I mean shit, Season 1 Ahsoka has managed to engage with Ventress for a longer period of time than that)

4. The Seventh Sister has displayed herself to be complete physical and Force fodder to Darth Maul, much less Darth Vader, both of whom Ahsoka has seriously contended with. So Ahsoka has fought roughly evenly or held her own extremely well against two individuals who have or could have fodderized the Seventh Sister.

5. And lastly... there's the fact that Ahsoka was so confident and comfortable in that duel that she decided to deactivate her lightsabers and take on the Seventh Sister on to begin with. Clearly they weren't fighting even remotely evenly or on par if Ahsoka thought literally going at her unarmed was a good idea.

6. And of course there's the fact that when Ahsoka got serious, she destroyed the Seventh Sister in martial combat while unarmed and then proceeded to completely ragdoll her.

Stop pretending Ahsoka vs the Seventh Sister is anything but a mismatch and a stomp.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Anyway, the Seventh Sister contended more with Ahsoka than S5 Ahsoka ever did with Grievous and Ezra's grown significally since the point he duelled evenly with the Seventh Sister.
Ahsoka didn't have aid against Grievous... and Grievous never deactivated his lightsabers and proceeded to manhandle her unarmed.

I mean shit, by your logic I could say "Barriss contended more with Anakin than Seventh Sister ever did with Ahsoka, and Ahsoka contended with Barriss while missing one of her lightsabers!"

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Alright, let's look at the rest of the context.

1. Ahsoka fighting both the Seventh Sister and Fifth Brother was stated to never be in any trouble at all in their fight. Then on Malachor when she had the help of the Eighth Brother, she wasn't making any headway against Ahsoka and she even Force pushes them both back several meters at once. So even with the aid of another inquisitor the Seventh Sister isn't a threat to Ahsoka and is still forced on the defensive.

Ahsoka wasn't a threat to Grievous either so your point is moot. Ahsoka gaining a momentarily edge against the Seventh Sister and Eight Brother does prove nothing, it's one specific moment in an entire fight.



IIRC the Fifth Brother interfered once while they were in a bladelock, so how is that preventing Ahsoka from following up on something if there wasn't even an opportunity at that point? I also like how suddenly Ahsoka's "disinterested" because you can't find an excuse for her not finishing off the Seventh Sister faster than Grievous had her biting dust.



So now combat is restricted to only actual blade contact? Which doesn't even matter since I never claimed that the Seventh Sister actually matched Ahsoka, just that she'd put up a fight and held her own, which in the end she did despite that Ashoka's obviously solidly superior.



Maul kicked her back and dominated the Inquisitors in general, doesn't mean that he could've fodderized her in seconds. There's a difference.



Who ever said that they were fighting on par? I said that the Seventh Sister contended with Ahsoka because she wasn't defeated in 10-20 seconds (or something in that area).



"When Ashoka got serious"? You got any prove for that besides your opinion?



If Ahsoka could so easily stomp the Seventh Sister than why didn't she? Because she didn't want to? Oh wait, she actually did want to defeat the Seventh Sister yet it only took her longer than the time it could be considered an aboslute stomp.



No indeed, she had the Force (which Grievous was defensless against) to save her twice, even on one point in the very beginning of the fight. The Seventh Sister actually managed to match Ahsoka blade to blade for a few times while Ahsoka in S5 only managed to roll away from Grievous and keep him at bay by using the Force. Add to that the fact that Ezra's grow significally since then and it becomes even more clear who would put up the best performance.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Ahsoka wasn't a threat to Grievous either so your point is moot. Ahsoka gaining a momentarily edge against the Seventh Sister and Eight Brother does prove nothing, it's one specific moment in an entire fight.
She ended up jumping off of Grievous's back at one point, which would require her to be able to land her feet on his back... which is more than I can say for the Seventh Sister's martial performance against Ahsoka even with help.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
IIRC the Fifth Brother interfered once while they were in a bladelock, so how is that preventing Ahsoka from following up on something if there wasn't even an opportunity at that point? I also like how suddenly Ahsoka's "disinterested" because you can't find an excuse for her not finishing off the Seventh Sister faster than Grievous had her biting dust.
Nah, he also interfered a couple times when Ahsoka punted her with either a physical blow and the Force, which prevented Ahsoka from following up, which I must say, given how well the Seventh Sister did charging at an unarmed Ahsoka while not unbalanced, I seriously doubt her chances at surviving an assault from Ahsoka after being thrown back a few meters and being unbalanced by a physical blow.

Nah, the time I'm referring to with Ahsoka being disinterested was when she kicked the Seventh Sister a few meters back onto her knees, and instead of following up that offensive, Ahsoka stood there and deactivated her lightsabers, which seems pretty disinterested to me.


Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
So now combat is restricted to only actual blade contact? Which doesn't even matter since I never claimed that the Seventh Sister actually matched Ahsoka, just that she'd put up a fight and held her own, which in the end she did despite that Ashoka's obviously solidly superior.
No but it is restricted to actually fighting her 1v1, which she only did for seven seconds at a time at most. I'm not counting when Ahsoka's being distracted by the Fifth Brother, or when they literally aren't fighting so they can have a verbal exchange of blows, or when Ahsoka is just standing there not doing anything.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Maul kicked her back and dominated the Inquisitors in general, doesn't mean that he could've fodderized her in seconds. There's a difference.
He was fighting three of them at once and pretty much immediately kicked her on her back. Unless you're arguing the Seventh Sister could survive an assault from Maul while she's on her back, yeah, Maul getting her in such a vulnerable position whilst dueling two other people pretty much proves she's fodder to him.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Who ever said that they were fighting on par? I said that the Seventh Sister contended with Ahsoka because she wasn't defeated in 10-20 seconds (or something in that area).
She never even dueled Ahsoka for more than seven seconds without Ahsoka either pausing to talk or deactivate her weapons, or without the Fifth Brother running in and interrupting.

And you aren't successfully contending with someone if they feel so unthreatened by you they literally decide to deactivate their weapons and let you charge them while they're unarmed.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
"When Ashoka got serious"? You got any prove for that besides your opinion?

If Ahsoka could so easily stomp the Seventh Sister than why didn't she? Because she didn't want to? Oh wait, she actually did want to defeat the Seventh Sister yet it only took her longer than the time it could be considered an aboslute stomp.
The Seventh Sister only fought Ahsoka for seven seconds with no interference at the longest, and Ahsoka ultimately did end up martially wrecking her... while Ahsoka was unarmed. Then she ragdolled her.

If the Seventh Sister is really capable of contending with Ahsoka... how did that happen?

Given what transpired in that fight, I think you're the one who has more of a need to prove Ahsoka can't just trash the Seventh Sister than I do to prove she can... because she basically did.

And your notion of how Ahsoka wouldn't be willing to dick around and would absolutely go all out out against the Seventh Sister is completely contradicted by the fact that she disarmed herself at one point intentionally. Clearly she wasn't taking the fight too seriously.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
No indeed, she had the Force (which Grievous was defensless against) to save her twice, even on one point in the very beginning of the fight. The Seventh Sister actually managed to match Ahsoka blade to blade for a few times while Ahsoka in S5 only managed to roll away from Grievous and keep him at bay by using the Force. Add to that the fact that Ezra's grow significally since then and it becomes even more clear who would put up the best performance.
Alright, then look at S1 Ahsoka's performance against Ventress where she dueled her for over 10 seconds straight at one point (which is more than the Seventh Sis managed against Ahsoka), or S5 Ahsoka's contention with Barriss while depraved of one of her weapons when Barriss would later go on to contend with Anakin Skywalker.

pmub

Can we just agree that the Canon Inquisitors just suck and that they dropped the ball with them?

Yeah, they ****ed up something that could've been really cool, both power-wise and character-wise.

Ahsoka borderline stomps.

ahsoka
no wait i forgot, ahsoka wasn't even a jedi knight, the night spirits said ezra was stronger than kanan who was a jedi knight.
Obviously ezra stomps

in all serious though, ahsoka takes this. Better force showings(blowing past post ocw ventress's defensive barrier,(even as of season 2) hurling grevious(as of season 3), throwing massive droids)
better skill showings(giving grevious a good fight, beating a less pre prime offee while massively pre prime herself and holding back, lasting vs post ocw ventress)
Better physicals(pushing back grevious(as of season 3), sending offee flying with a kick, disarming mid tcw anakin, holding maul in a bladelock(granted this was a few months after tcw, but still))

Yet another Ezra getting wrecked thread.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Can we just agree that the Canon Inquisitors just suck and that they dropped the ball with them?

Nah. The GI was great. Easily the best Inquisitor save perhaps Jerec.

I really wish they hadn't killed off GI.

I'm glad they did. Kanan defeated him. From then on the character would have been far less threatening and eventually, after enough encounters with the heroes, he would have become a joke. Killing the GI there ensured he would remain a cool and fearsome villain.

Even as desperate for Kanan feats as I am. It would have been worth it for Kanan NOT to have defeated him if it means he could've still been a good character and solid threat to the crew.

He was a big loss to the show.

Originally posted by ares834
Nah. The GI was great.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Ahsoka borderline stomps.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Can we just agree that the Canon Inquisitors just suck and that they dropped the ball with them? what's with all the balls and sucking, r u gay?

Ahsoka stomps....oh god

It will be ugly, yeah.

Originally posted by ares834
Nah. The GI was great. Easily the best Inquisitor save perhaps Jerec.

Just barely, but that isn't saying much since the other Canon Inquisitors are lacking character. The Legends ones, have much better character and more diverse than these ones.

I loved the GI in S1. Even bought a 16inch of him.

wow, what a losur.

If Ahsoka by the time of Rebels couldn't stomp the Seventh Sister than an much inferior version of her isn't going to stomp a superior combatant, but I'll keep the rest for my debate with Joker.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
couldn't stomp the Seventh Sisterlol

Ya know that brings up something, with the Inquisitors now gone...how is it we are suppose to prove that Ezra even surpasses them blade wise? Force wise is more cut and dry obviously, but unless they come across another Force User with a blade, I don't see how.

I mean I guess blade training, if it's shown sure.

We'll have no way of knowing when he's dead, yeah.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
If Ahsoka by the time of Rebels couldn't stomp the Seventh Sister than an much inferior version of her isn't going to stomp a superior combatant, but I'll keep the rest for my debate with Joker. I'm anxious to get it started.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Ya know that brings up something, with the Inquisitors now gone...how is it we are suppose to prove that Ezra even surpasses them blade wise? Force wise is more cut and dry obviously, but unless they come across another Force User with a blade, I don't see how.

I mean I guess blade training, if it's shown sure.


Precisely what I've been saying. So why are people just randomly putting S3 Ezra on par with Inquisitors?

We'll only know for sure when he surpasses Kanan.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Precisely what I've been saying. So why are people just randomly putting S3 Ezra on par with Inquisitors?

We'll only know for sure when he surpasses Kanan.

1. He was already fighting roughly evenly with them and he needed only to mildly tap into his anger and he was pushing back the 7th Sister in season 2.

-> He advanced a lot towards season 3 as evidenced by statements and visually on Rebels (e.g. lightsaber technique)

2. FPJ said he would defeat the 7th Sister in season 3

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
FPJ said he would defeat the 7th Sister in season 3
Ashley Eckleston said Ahsoka would defeat Ventress in season 3 of TCW.
Either:
1. voice actor statements are worthless
2. TCW Ahsoka shits on Ezra
3. Ezra>Ventress

Pick your poison lol

DD9 just took a massive L right up the ass.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Eckleston *Eckstein, you swine.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Ashley Eckleston said Ahsoka would defeat Ventress in season 3 of TCW.
Either:
1. voice actor statements are worthless
2. TCW Ahsoka shits on Ezra
3. Ezra>Ventress

Pick your poison lol *Ecklescake

Other than that thoOriginally posted by |King Joker|
DD9 just took a massive L right up the ass.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Ashley Eckleston said Ahsoka would defeat Ventress in season 3 of TCW.
Either:
1. voice actor statements are worthless
2. TCW Ahsoka shits on Ezra
3. Ezra>Ventress

Pick your poison lol

First let's compare what both voice actors actually said, Ashley is claiming that Ahsoka is going to win because she now has two lightsabers while FPJ says that Ezra would win because he's tapping into more power than in season 2 (which is supported by a couple of official sources). Secondly, the base of my argument consists of things we've seen in Rebels combined with official statements so not just the opinion of a voice actor.

Next time try to counter my entire argument instead of picking only a part of it.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Ashley Eckleston
Originally posted by |King Joker|
*Eckstein, you swine.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
*Ecklescake

Now what? Who is the real Assoka fan?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
*Ecklescake

Other than that tho

Really tho, you guys don't have to say everytime how good an argument is when one of you makes a comment which involves Ahsoka.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Ahsoka borderline stomps.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Ah, okay, thanks.
Ahsoka contending wirh GG and Asajj is still better.

Both Ventress and Grievous were toying with Ashoka. There were a bunch of times they could've killed her but didn't.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
1. He was already fighting roughly evenly with them and he needed only to mildly tap into his anger and he was pushing back the 7th Sister in season 2.

-> He advanced a lot towards season 3 as evidenced by statements and visually on Rebels (e.g. lightsaber technique)

2. FPJ said he would defeat the 7th Sister in season 3


1. I don't ever remember him fighting evenly against an Inquisitor. Heck Kanan could never overpower the 7th Sister, and he was obviously still way beyond Ezra in S2.

2. Quote? Regardless we've not got to the end of S3 yet.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
voice actor statements are worthless



To b fair they have more insider knowledge than us. If nothing else they're ahead on the episodes.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
1. I don't ever remember him fighting evenly against an Inquisitor. Heck Kanan could never overpower the 7th Sister, and he was obviously still way beyond Ezra in S2.



I think he was referring to the final moments before the 7th Sister's death. Before Maul Force choked her.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
Both Ventress and Grievous were toying with Ashoka. There were a bunch of times they could've killed her but didn't. Prove Ventress was toying with Ahsoka.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Prove Ventress was toying with Ahsoka.

Going by just early TCW, Ventress has disarmed Kenobi and could've killed Ashoka during the bladelock. She also felt comfortable enough turning her back to her when getting charged at.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
Going by just early TCW, Ventress has disarmed Kenobi Kenobi was bullshitting that fight.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
and could've killed Ashoka during the bladelock. Because you say so?

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
She also felt comfortable enough turning her back to her when getting charged at. Ventress was going to the door to free Gunray lol, she had to turn her back to Ahsoka, whether or not she was comfortable with it.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Kenobi was bullshitting that fight.

Because you say so?

Ventress was going to the door to free Gunray lol, she had to turn her back to Ahsoka, whether or not she was comfortable with it.

Regardless, disarming Kenobi in any fashion is a legit feat.

Why wouldn't Asajj stab Ahsoka with her other blade?

That's my point. She felt like she could pull trapping Ahsoka off.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
Regardless, disarming Kenobi in any fashion is a legit feat.

Why wouldn't Asajj stab Ahsoka with her other blade?

That's my point. She felt like she could pull trapping Ahsoka off. Obviously, but it isn't the same when he isn't really trying vs. if he was serious.

Who knows? It's Star Wars choreography. I could say why didn't Ahsoka cut off Grievous's feet when he grabbed her face, or go through every Star Wars duel with someone wielding Jar'Kai and go "hey, she could totally stab that mother****er with her other lightsaber, what the hell?".

Like, why didn't Ventress stab Anakin with her other lightsaber here?

Or here?

I could go through so many examples if I had the time, I just watched one Ventress fight and there were two similar examples comparable to the Ahsoka one.

And if Ventress felt as if she could pull off trapping Ahsoka, that may be because she's, like, a lot better than her?

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Obviously, but it isn't the same when he isn't really trying vs. if he was serious.

Who knows? It's Star Wars choreography. I could say why didn't Ahsoka cut off Grievous's feet when he grabbed her face, or go through every Star Wars duel with someone wielding Jar'Kai and go "hey, she could totally stab that mother****er with her other lightsaber, what the hell?".

Like, why didn't Ventress stab Anakin with her other lightsaber here?

Or here?

I could go through so many examples if I had the time, I just watched one Ventress fight and there were two similar examples comparable to the Ahsoka one.

And if Ventress felt as if she could pull off trapping Ahsoka, that may be because she's, like, a lot better than her?

By that logic, Ahsoka should've been able to kill Vader instead of Force pushing him.

What?

Originally posted by |King Joker|
What?

Filoni said in an interview that Vader could definitely kill Ahsoka.

Hold on I'll find it.

What does that have to do with what we're discussing?

Originally posted by |King Joker|
What does that have to do with what we're discussing?

You said that lightsaber choreography isn't always realistic which it isn't. But that doesn't mean that Grievous was too retarded to stab Ahsoka with his other two sabers.

Also, later in that episode Ventress was able to handle both Luminara and Ahsoka.

Let's say Ventress couldn't have killed Ahsoka. What makes Ahsoka her equal if not better?

You implied Ahsoka was better than Ventress.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
You said that lightsaber choreography isn't always realistic which it isn't. But that doesn't mean that Grievous was too retarded to stab Ahsoka with his other two sabers. What the ****, we're talking about Ventress.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
Also, later in that episode Ventress was able to handle both Luminara and Ahsoka.

Let's say Ventress couldn't have killed Ahsoka. What makes Ahsoka her equal if not better?

You implied Ahsoka was better than Ventress. Are you okay?

I never implied Ahsoka was better than Ventress, I'm asking you for proof that Ventress was toying with Ahsoka, which so far you have absolutely nothing at all.

still ahsoka.
Beating offee when vastly pre prime, holding her own vs ventress when vastly pre prime, and giving grevious a good fight when significatly pre prime are miles better than being the weak link vs the inqusitors

Originally posted by |King Joker|
What the ****, we're talking about Ventress.

Are you okay?

I never implied Ahsoka was better than Ventress, I'm asking you for proof that Ventress was toying with Ahsoka, which so far you have absolutely nothing at all.

I know.

You did when you talked about Ventress luring her into the cell.

Why do you think Ventress wasn't holding back?

In the TCW movie Ventress dismantled Ahsoka within seconds on the Teth landing platform. I don't think Ahsoka improved that much. I guess you could say Ahsoka got better, but so did Ventress.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
First let's compare what both voice actors actually said, Ashley is claiming that Ahsoka is going to win because she now has two lightsabers while FPJ says that Ezra would win because he's tapping into more power than in season 2 (which is supported by a couple of official sources).
And Ahsoka now having two lightsabers isn't supported by official sources? LOL Of course it is because she can clearly be seen with two lightsabers from Season three and on in TCW.

Both voice actors attributed their opinion on the victor of a fight to a quality their claimed victor has that impacts combative ability and said quality is backed by official sources.

Likewise, the same voice actor you are using said Ahsoka is one of the top 3 or 4 Jedi combatants of all time, which means even if we narrow it down to the Jedi we've seen, Ahsoka would have to be above two or three of these guys (Luke, Yoda, Windu, Anakin, or Obi-Wan) if you take that statement seriously, which given your frequent arguing against Ahsoka... correct me if I'm wrong but I doubt you actually put her above two or three of these guys or even one of them.

It seems to me that you're selectively pushing the validity of voice actor quotes depending on which ones support the position you're trying to push.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Secondly, the base of my argument consists of things we've seen in Rebels combined with official statements so not just the opinion of a voice actor.

Next time try to counter my entire argument instead of picking only a part of it.
Here's the thing though, I didn't really care about your entire argument, because even if you argued Ezra's superiority to the Seventh Sister I still don't believe that proves the point you want it to, and I responded merely with the intent of addressing your selective use of voice actor quotes.

You're trying to suggest that Ezra's superiority to the Seventh Sister (if it exists), proves Ezra's superiority to TCW Ahsoka if a lone inquisitor can legitimately contend with Ahsoka, however to try and prove inquisitors can contend with Ahsoka you bring up two instances, her duel with the Seventh Sister, and her duel with the Fifth brother. The former of which is basically worthless since firstly the Seventh sister never held out against a sustained barrage from Ahsoka for more than seven seconds, secondly Ahsoka martially stomped her without a lightsaber at the end of that fight and also ragdolled her, and thirdly Ahsoka was not taking that fight seriously at all (as evidenced by Ahsoka's demonstrated capacity to end the seventh sister whenever she wished... and by the fact that she straight up disarmed herself in the middle of that fight). The latter example with the Fifth brother might actually be valid if it weren't completely contradicted and marked a PIS driven outlier by every other indication of the gap between Ahsoka and the Fifth Brother.

So even if Season 2 Ezra were equal to the Seventh Sister, that wouldn't prove what you want it to prove. The example you're using to try and prove Season 2 Ezra's equity with the Inquisitors is a very brief duel which is further confounded by Ezra using his darker emotions (something he won't be doing in character in this fight), and the Seventh Sister having Maul to worry about (which means retreating and drawing Ezra further away from Maul would make more tactical sense than driving Ezra towards Maul). Not to mention that Ezra is specifically noted as noticeably weaker than Kanan to the extent where his weakness relative to Kanan's is a driving factor in how they paired off later on, with Kanan being matched by singular inquisitors multiple times in the episode and in previous episodes, and this is further reinforced by Ezra being quickly beaten by the eighth brother earlier that same episode.

If I wanted to play the same game you're playing here of selectively using evidence, I could point out Ahsoka does indeed undergo a shift in armament and fighting style in season 3 as per the official source of TCW (as Ashley points out in her quote), after which I could subsequently point out Ahsoka's duels after that point where she: drove Anakin back on Mortis and disarmed him before holding off Anakin and Obi-Wan, matched a more battlehardened Pre Vizsla than one who punched Obi-Wan a few feet into the air and knocked him on his ass while Obi-Wan was armed and Vizsla was unarmed, that she managed to drive Grievous back multiple steps with her offensive without the aid of a nexus (unlike Ventress), and say that even while disadvantaged by a lack of armament Ahsoka still managed to hold her own against and drive back Barriss with Barriss only winning against this disadvantaged Ahsoka by exploiting an environmental advantage (then pointing out that Barriss's combative abilities were sufficient enough to convince Ahsoka she was Ventress, and that Barriss was able to hold her own for a lengthy period of time against Anakin and even land blows on him), then assert all of that alongside Ashley's quote as proof that Ahsoka could best Ventress.

Would I do that? Of course not because that would be absolutely disingenuous. It would be me selectively using tidbits of information while ignoring the bigger picture.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
You did when you talked about Ventress luring her into the cell. Me saying Ventress is a lot better than Ahsoka is me implying Ahsoka is better than Ventress?

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
Why do you think Ventress wasn't holding back? Nothing indicates she wasn't, and I don't have to prove a negative.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
In the TCW movie Ventress dismantled Ahsoka within seconds on the Teth landing platform. Indeed, so Ahsoka's performance on the Tranquility is a testament to her learning curve. She's been stated to have a considerable early ability in lightsaber combat and have impressive lightsaber abilities early on in her training, so couple that with training from one of the greatest combatants in the Jedi Order and add in her natural ability, it isn't unrealistic.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
I don't think Ahsoka improved that much. https://media.tenor.co/images/61e30243067745c61fa25d46b3ea0d2a/raw

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Me saying Ventress is a lot better than Ahsoka is me implying Ahsoka is better than Ventress?

Nothing indicates she wasn't, and I don't have to prove a negative.

Indeed, so Ahsoka's performance on the Tranquility is a testament to her learning curve. She's been stated to have a considerable early ability in lightsaber combat and have impressive lightsaber abilities early on in her training, so couple that with training from one of the greatest combatants in the Jedi Order and add in her natural ability, it isn't unrealistic.

https://media.tenor.co/images/61e30243067745c61fa25d46b3ea0d2a/raw

What?

Good to get that out of the way.

If Ahsoka improved then there's no reason why Ventress didn't.

Actually Emperordmb said it better.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
What?

Good to get that out of the way.

If Ahsoka improved then there's no reason why Ventress didn't. Quote me implying Ahsoka is better than Ventress.

I never claimed Ventress didn't improve, but there's more evidence and reason to conclude Ahsoka improved at a greater rate than Ventress did between TCW movie and S1, enough to hold her own for a noticeably longer period of time.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Quote me implying Ahsoka is better than Ventress.

"And if Ventress felt as if she could pull off trapping Ahsoka, that may be because she's, like, a lot better than her?"

^ On the previous page.

Jesus Christ...

Make sure he knows what you actually mean, lmao.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Jesus Christ...

I can't do much from my phone.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Make sure he knows what you actually mean, lmao. What I said was pretty clear, and I even clarified later what I meant. Not my responsibility at this point, lol.

True, I can't really fault you on this. You literally said what you meant earlier on, lol.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
Actually Emperordmb said it better.
I'm not sure how my response to DD9 has anything to do with your response to Joker, but I actually agree with Joker.

Your claim that Ventress was toying with Ahsoka in Cloak of Darkness is based on several erroneous claims that I'll list out (along with some weird attempt to conflate Joker's position with suggesting Ahsoka's superiority to Ventress which I'm not even going to bother addressing):

1. Ventress bladelocked Ahsoka at one point without pinning one of her blades in place and using the other to strike her.

2. Ventress turned her back to Ahsoka while running to Gunray's cell

3. Ventress disarmed Obi-Wan

4. Ventress quickly dominated Ahsoka on the Teth platform, and they both had the same amount of time to improve since then.

As per your first point, Joker has correctly pointed out Ventress's several other instances of meeting people in bladelocks with both blades at once, people she would certainly be taking seriously (in fact this is a very common thing among Jar'kai practitioners), as well as the futility of relying too much on duel coreography... we're not the Forcecast afterall. Though Ventress's move absolutely makes sense in that fight, since bladelocks are contests of strength and are thus better approached with pressure and leverage from both arms (which means both weapons if you practice Jar'kai), since Ventress already had the arm she struck second with wound up and in motion for that strike (so suddenly changing what she was going to do with it would've been a physically awkward and slower move, and undoubtedly one Ahsoka would've seen coming), and because whereas a successful bladelock would force Ahsoka into an awkward position, swinging at Ahsoka with the other blade would've lead to Ahsoka moving evasively backwards into a position she's actually comfortable fighting from.

As per your second point, Ventress did not turn her back to Ahsoka while engaged in a barrage of lightsaber combat, she did so while disengaged in lightsaber combat and while running away from Ahsoka to free Gunray... the objective of her mission.

I would like to note that as per your first two points... Ahsoka does both of these things at the same time against Vader, and unlike with Ventress Ahsoka was actively engaged in lightsaber combat with Vader when her back was turned. So if Ventress was toying with Ahsoka, then by your logic Ahsoka must've not been taking her fight with Vader that seriously at all.

As per your third point, Joker is correct in pointing out that Obi-Wan wasn't taking his fight with Ventress very seriously, he was openly mocking her, the novel notes he was ****ing around, and when she disarmed him he only seemed to be sarcastically impressed before going on to physically handle her while unarmed. The entire focus of his duel with Ventress wasn't to best her, it was to keep her preoccupied and focused on him. If he actually demonstrated his superiority to her in a completely domineering way, she could've disengaged from that fight and redoubled her efforts on finding the Hutt. This is further reinforced by the fact that immediately after they both sense Anakin's departure from the planet, Obi-Wan lands a strike on Ventress's weapon, disarms her of one of her blades, and forces her to retreat, whereas before he was obviously leading her around.

As for your fourth point... what the ****. By this logic, no character could ever bridge the gap between themselves and another character... which quite blatantly isn't true. There are numerous factors that impact a difference in growth curves from potential, to circumstances around improvement, and coincidentally enough, both of these fall in Ahsoka's favor. As per potential, assuming Ventress is near the age of either of her lover (Vos), one-time mate (Savage) or guy she has weird romantic banter with (Obi-Wan), she and Ahsoka were roughly the same age at their respective peaks, however Ventress displays an inability to contend with Dooku level opponents whereas Ahsoka displays the ability to contend with Vader level opponents, and Ahsoka would've had less developmental training considering she only had a formal master for a few years in the earlier stages of her development and fell out of practice for a decent period of time in the imperial period, whereas Ventress pretty much trained her whole life and had training from a master aiding her at the peak of her abilities. To sum that up, Ahsoka at her peak is beyond Ventress at her peak, despite them both being at the same age and Ventress having spent more time honing her abilities with a better quality of training, so Ahsoka most likely has the greater potential. On top of this, Ahsoka growing more in combative ability than Ventress makes sense considering Ahsoka around this time was plunged from initiate training into training from one of the greatest swordsman and Force users in the Jedi order and into battlefield experience, whereas Ventress's training was pretty consistent in this time. So not only do confounding variables make it impossible for you to prove their growth curves would've been equal, these variables are all in favor of Ahsoka growing more than Ventress did.

On top of this, Ventress has every motivation against toying with Ahsoka since she's trying to remove one of the top separatists from the clutches of the republic as an order from Dooku and the guy above him, Ahsoka's in her way, and there's a better Jedi also on board that Ventress could be forced into dealing with if she doesn't handle Ahsoka and free Gunray quickly enough.

So Joker is correct in asserting the burden of proof is not on him to prove a negative, it's on you to prove the claim that Ventress was doing something that goes against her mission and motivations, and thus far the evidence you've provided for your assertion hasn't been sufficient.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/QSzTAwITkM0FO/200.gif#23

http://www.popmythology.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/plastic-man-jaw-drop.jpg

Originally posted by Emperordmb
And Ahsoka now having two lightsabers isn't supported by official sources? LOL Of course it is because she can clearly be seen with two lightsabers from Season three and on in TCW.

Both voice actors attributed their opinion on the victor of a fight to a quality their claimed victor has that impacts combative ability and said quality is backed by official sources.

Likewise, the same voice actor you are using said Ahsoka is one of the top 3 or 4 Jedi combatants of all time, which means even if we narrow it down to the Jedi we've seen, Ahsoka would have to be above two or three of these guys (Luke, Yoda, Windu, Anakin, or Obi-Wan) if you take that statement seriously, which given your frequent arguing against Ahsoka... correct me if I'm wrong but I doubt you actually put her above two or three of these guys or even one of them.

It seems to me that you're selectively pushing the validity of voice actor quotes depending on which ones support the position you're trying to push.

Here's the thing though, I didn't really care about your entire argument, because even if you argued Ezra's superiority to the Seventh Sister I still don't believe that proves the point you want it to, and I responded merely with the intent of addressing your selective use of voice actor quotes..

I was of course aiming at the fact that Ahsoka having two lightsabes isn't a reason she should suddenly defeat Ventress, something which isn't backed up by soures (the idea that her heaving two lightsabers would actually make her better) and even blantly contradicted when we look at her fight with Grievous in Season 5 contrary to FPJ's statement which is supported by sources, what we see onscreen and isn't contradicted anywhere.

Yeah I don't take very voice actor's opinion seriously but just pretending that it's black and white in this case is nonesenses, in your thinking process you can either accept or neglect a voice actors opinion. In this case I'm using FPJ's comments because it aligns with what we've seen in Rebels and he's talking about characters he's closely worked with, which is the exact same reason FPJ's top 3/4 comment should be neglected since he's using characters with who he has never worked wiand have nothing to do with the character he's voicing.



Like I said, I'll keep most of it for my debate with Joker so you shouldn't have troubled to put out this comment buddy. What is funny however is that your suddenly claiming that of entire 50 seconds fight only the length when they were continously clashing blades counts (your 7 seconds) while completely ignoring the rest of the fight because "she wasn't taking it seriously", well let me ask you this question: If Ahsoka could absolutely stomp the 7th Sister whenever she wants than why didn't she do it in the beginning of the fight or even in TotA?

Hilarious, Filoni's opinion doesn't matter (except when it wanks Kanan) and FPJ's only matters when it aligns with my opinion? Control your bias pls.

Aimed at me?

Do you see any other retarded Ezra fanboys on this thread?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Do you see any other retarded Ezra fanboys on this thread?

Really, I'm amazed with the level of intelligence you're always able to put up Beni. It isn't necessary to every time comment how great DMB/Joker's arguments are and to then call me 'retarded' and 'biased', I was merely pointing out why I took FPJ's comment about Ezra seriously.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Like I said, I'll keep most of it for my debate with Joker so you shouldn't have troubled to put out this comment buddy.
I was perfectly happy to not give a single flying **** about your argument, merely your selective use of voice actor quotes.

You then decided to call me out and imply some bitchey disingenuous subversive nature on my part for not replying to your argument in it's entirety and told me to actually address your argument in it's entirety so... guess what? You got what you demanded from me and I addressed your argument in its entirety.

Don't call me out for not responding to your argument in its entirety and ask me to respond to your argument in its entirety when you have no intention of responding to my response in its entirety, because not only does it come across as hypocritical, it's also you completely wasting my time.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
I was of course aiming at the fact that Ahsoka having two lightsabes isn't a reason she should suddenly defeat Ventress, something which isn't backed up by soures (the idea that her heaving two lightsabers would actually make her better) and even blantly contradicted when we look at her fight with Grievous in Season 5 contrary to FPJ's statement which is supported by sources, what we see onscreen and isn't contradicted anywhere.
Ahsoka having two lightsabers represents an advancement in technical skill (given how much more difficult it is to successfully wield two blades than one, and how fighting style personalization tends to get introduced with advancement), increases striking speed, defensive coverage, greatly increases versatility (particularly with her specific dual bladed armament of differing bladelengths), and quite honestly plays very well to the strengths of Ahsoka's fighting style. The notion that a dual bladed armament has no bearing on combative performance when it holds various advantages that play to the strengths of Ahsoka's fighting style and represent the continued advancement and development of Ahsoka's fighting style is nonsensical.

And your arguing her Grievous fight disproves the possibility of Ahsoka being above Ventress when one could easily call Ventress's fight with Grievous circumstantial and point to Grievous's superior performances against individuals superior to Ventress as indicative of that fact.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Yeah I don't take very voice actor's opinion seriously but just pretending that it's black and white in this case is nonesenses, in your thinking process you can either accept or neglect a voice actors opinion. In this case I'm using FPJ's comments because it aligns with what we've seen in Rebels and he's talking about characters he's closely worked with, which is the exact same reason FPJ's top 3/4 comment should be neglected since he's using characters with who he has never worked wiand have nothing to do with the character he's voicing.
Ahsoka's voice actress has the same involvement in TCW, and unlike FPJ is speaking to the character she actually voices rather than one with a close relationship to her character.

And as far as alignment goes, people have different interpretations of what happened within Rebels and what the implications of those events are, so it aligns specifically with your interpretation of Rebels.

Your statement that you generally don't take voice actor statements seriously, and that they're validated when they're proven correct pretty much invalidates them as selective evidence, since you already admit they're rather unreliable, and that the point has to be proven independent of the quote to validate it.

What you're trying to do is suggest that because you introduced an interpretation that aligns with his statement, that validates a statement that would otherwise carry no weight and allows you to use it to suggest that your interpretation is less contentious than you want it to be.

However since you blatantly stated such quotes are pretty untrustworthy and are only valid when proven, if someone can refute the validity of your interpretation on it's own (ie. without assuming the FPJ quote is valid), then that quote becomes invalid. All one has to do is disprove the notion that your interpretation can stand without the validity of that quote, and the quote becomes invalid.

Essentially, your argument has to stand on it's own two feet without that quote to prove that quote's validity, however if your argument stands on its own two feet without the quote then the addition of the quote does nothing because the point has already been proven, and if your argument doesn't stand on its own two feet then the quote also does nothing because it would in that case be invalid.

Basically, based on the nature of voice actor quotes and how sketchy they are, the FPJ quote adds nothing to your argument because it's only as valid or invalid as your argument is without the quote, and you asserting that quote as actual evidence is a disingenuous way of suggesting your argument is less challengeable than it actually is.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
What is funny however is that your suddenly claiming that of entire 50 seconds fight only the length when they were continously clashing blades counts (your 7 seconds) while completely ignoring the rest of the fight because "she wasn't taking it seriously", well let me ask you this question: If Ahsoka could absolutely stomp the 7th Sister whenever she wants than why didn't she do it in the beginning of the fight or even in TotA?
When Ahsoka is consistently interrupted from keeping the seventh sister under a consistent offensive barrage via Ahsoka pausing to make conversation, the Fifth brother interfering, or Ahsoka stopping to deactivate her weapons, I'd say it still is relevant.

What is funny however is that you still think I have to prove Ahsoka can stomp the Seventh Sister... when she pretty blatantly and explicitly did so onscreen after purposefully disarming herself, and that you still think I have to prove Ahsoka wasn't taking that fight seriously... when she literally disarmed herself in the middle of martial combat. If a fight ends with one combatant literally disarming themselves and then immediately stomping their armed opponent while unarmed... it's very clear that the combatant can stomp their opponent and that they weren't taking their opponent very seriously.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
I was merely pointing out why I took FPJ's comment about Ezra seriously. Because you're a biased retard (and no match for great debaters like DMB & Joker) who cherry picks statements based on personal preference, yeah i know.

Anyone got FPJ's actual quote?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because you're a biased retard (and no match for great debaters like DMB & Joker) who cherry picks statements based on personal preference, yeah i know.

Jensaurai lol

Did you guys drove DD9 into suicide?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Did you guys drove DD9 into suicide? We can hope?

AlsoOriginally posted by Emperordmb
Ahsoka's voice actress has the same involvement in TCW, and unlike FPJ is speaking to the character she actually voices rather than one with a close relationship to her character.

God, that was sexy.

This is why Author comments and Voice Actor comments don't mean shit.

Author quotes are probably different than VA quotes tbh

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
This is why Author comments and Voice Actor comments don't mean shit.

Depends what the comment is about. Elaborating on their own work is fine, giving their opinion about shit they have nothing to do with is not.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Author quotes are probably different than VA quotes tbh

Not really.

Taking Authorscomments seriously is a terrible idea. Because since they're their creations(See Tom ***** creator/writer of DE and ToTJ) they will of course favor an original creation(Kun) over an already established character(Sheev) this coupled with the fact that due to the nature of Star Wars sourcebooks, Encyclopedia's, Fact Files and the like, which all contain - in most cases - interpretations of a character's power or an event that differ from the Author interpretation of said character's power and/or event. While you can argue that the author's interpretation>all else. I would say that an Author's opinion, shouldn't be considered too seriously.

Why? Well consider Tom Veitch, he was involved in ToTJ and DE, then afterwards what was he involved in? Nothing. So this tells us:
1 - He hasn't worked on a Star Wars series since the 80/90s

2 - His view of Kun is based on nothing but his own opinion(i.e bias)

3 - He has no knowledge of anything that has been said from the time his character's story ended.

So what we're left with is a a man telling us, without knowledge of how far Star Wars has progressed, how far other Sith has progressed( Because remember, this guy doesn't know about Sith like Vitiate, Revan, or Dooku, at least not anything beyond the movies), without knowledge of what several Star Wars Sources say about Sheev, both dated and new, that Exar Kun is superior or equal to Sheev. How should that be taken seriously?

I understand using quotes from Lucas, Filoni, Hidalgo, and people with direct involvement in the creative control group. And I am by no means trying to discourage you from using quotes from authors, go ahead and add it to your RT so others can decide their worth. But there are factors involved when taking an Author's and a Voice Actor's opinion seriously.

Just for reference. Donnie Yen, one of my favorite actors, said in an interview that he felt that he could have beaten Vader if Chirrut Imwe had the Force and a Lightsaber. So it just seems so silly, in my opinion, to take such comments so seriously without applying a lick of common sense. If you don't agree, thats fine. But perhaps you'll see where I'm coming from

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy


Just for reference. Donnie Yen, one of my favorite actors, said in an interview that he felt that he could have beaten Vader if Chirrut Imwe had the Force and a Lightsaber. So it just seems so silly, in my opinion, to take such comments so seriously without applying a lick of common sense. If you don't agree, thats fine. But perhaps you'll see where I'm coming from


True but when someone like FPJ (after having filmed all of S3, but before it aired) says something like he thinks Ahsoka would take Maul in a fight, then it's pretty obvious Maul won't be beating Ahsoka in S3. Also obvious that they weren't going to portray Maul as being at Vader level.

Freddie knows only Rebels primarily, and Maul's caonically better regardless.

I take official sources > non-official author statements from an e-mail that might not even be realy(AP was always sketchy).

He's not canonically better.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Not really.

Taking Authorscomments seriously is a terrible idea. Because since they're their creations(See Tom ***** creator/writer of DE and ToTJ) they will of course favor an original creation(Kun) over an already established character(Sheev) this coupled with the fact that due to the nature of Star Wars sourcebooks, Encyclopedia's, Fact Files and the like, which all contain - in most cases - interpretations of a character's power or an event that differ from the Author interpretation of said character's power and/or event. While you can argue that the author's interpretation>all else. I would say that an Author's opinion, shouldn't be considered too seriously.

Why? Well consider Tom Veitch, he was involved in ToTJ and DE, then afterwards what was he involved in? Nothing. So this tells us:
1 - He hasn't worked on a Star Wars series since the 80/90s

2 - His view of Kun is based on nothing but his own opinion(i.e bias)

3 - He has no knowledge of anything that has been said from the time his character's story ended.

So what we're left with is a a man telling us, without knowledge of how far Star Wars has progressed, how far other Sith has progressed( Because remember, this guy doesn't know about Sith like Vitiate, Revan, or Dooku, at least not anything beyond the movies), without knowledge of what several Star Wars Sources say about Sheev, both dated and new, that Exar Kun is superior or equal to Sheev. How should that be taken seriously?

I understand using quotes from Lucas, Filoni, Hidalgo, and people with direct involvement in the creative control group. And I am by no means trying to discourage you from using quotes from authors, go ahead and add it to your RT so others can decide their worth. But there are factors involved when taking an Author's and a Voice Actor's opinion seriously.

Just for reference. Donnie Yen, one of my favorite actors, said in an interview that he felt that he could have beaten Vader if Chirrut Imwe had the Force and a Lightsaber. So it just seems so silly, in my opinion, to take such comments so seriously without applying a lick of common sense. If you don't agree, thats fine. But perhaps you'll see where I'm coming from I imagine Joker was referring more to instances were authors are talking solely about their own work, rather than the standing of their characters in mythos.

He is, tho.

EDIT: FVCKING NINJA'ED! MAUL > AHSOKA!

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I imagine Joker was referring more to instances were authors are talking solely about their own work, rather than the standing of their characters in mythos.

**** off joker lol

DMB you preach luv, and yet you force people to suicide. Fvcking awful, m8.

Damn, DMB got serious.

Originally posted by MythLord
DMB you preach luv, and yet you force people to suicide. Fvcking awful, m8.
Well they say actions speak louder than words...
Originally posted by MythLord
DD9, on KMC "kill self" means "I love and/or tolerate you"
I just took love on KMC a step further

When you say "kill self" it's luv. When you actually make someone do it -- it's a disgusting act of inhumanitee.

Originally posted by MythLord
He is, tho.

EDIT: FVCKING NINJA'ED! MAUL > AHSOKA! What

Maul > Ahsoka!

incorrect

Only in ur dreams.

Originally posted by MythLord
When you say "kill self" it's luv. When you actually make someone do it -- it's a disgusting act of inhumanitee.

Depends who you drive to suicide. The world would be better off without like 90% of KMCers.