Discussing Caedus

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ILS
What character is Caedus closest to as a:

-Lightsaber wielder/martial artist

-Telekinetic

-Telepathic

-Force lightning'er

-Force barrier'er

-Overall Force user

-Overall combatant

Reasons and citations required.

Happy Dance

DarthAnt66
probably should wait 15 days tbh

The Merchant
Darth Vader. Vader>=Caedus.

Ursumeles
Enough to beat the sh!t out of Maul in every category.

DarthDuelist9
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Enough to beat the sh!t out of Maul in every category.

Doubt it

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Enough to beat the sh!t out of Maul in every category.

Maul's showing against Jinn and Obi-Wan, quite frankly, shares parity with the strike team showing.

A case can be made that Jinn is Katarn superior And Obi-Wan shits all over the rest of the three Jedi to the point they're almost fodder, per Caedus' words himself, no less.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
And Maul handled the duo more easily than Caedus handled the strike team. smile

ILS
Kek.

JKBart
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Maul's showing against Jinn and Obi-Wan, quite frankly, shares parity with the strike team showing.

A case can be made that Jinn is Katarn superior And Obi-Wan shits all over the rest of the three Jedi to the point they're almost fodder, per Caedus' words himself, no less.

u're trying way too hard with njo antiwank
jinn > katarn is far too kekish

Deronn_solo
Exactly. With "easily defending himself against them" and " striking faster than Jedi can react".

Caedus is a Dooku/non- Vaapad drunk Mace Windu level duelist. Not on a pedestal above it.


Edit: Ninja'd by Bart.

JKBart
on topic:
duelist - above Plagueis
TK user - above RotJ Vader, very inferior to DE Luke
Telepathy - dunno, but top of the mythos TP resistance
Force Lightning - Dooku level at absolute best
Force Barrier - sub-Starkiller
Overall Force user - above Starkiller, Talzin, firmly below Plagueis
Overall combatant - Plagueis level

Deronn_solo
As stated above: Dooku/non Vaapad drunk Mace Windu.


Above Dooku, but below the likes Galen Marek


Top 10, possibly.



Like, Dooku level, yeah


Around Arcann's maybe?


A notch below Vader. thumb up



Slightly above, or equal to, Darth Vader.

ILS
I think Caedus is a less naturally gifted pre-suit Vader with much more Force knowledge. So, Windu+ combatant with Vader-tier power. That being based on him stalemating Jaina and throwing her around with TK despite being gimped by several circumstances. And he's stated many times to be far more powerful than her, including by her.

I seldom see him argued to be that level though.

ILS
By the way, by Windu+ I mean beyond Windu, by a clear margin.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Maul's showing against Jinn and Obi-Wan, quite frankly, shares parity with the strike team showing.

A case can be made that Jinn is Katarn superior And Obi-Wan shits all over the rest of the three Jedi to the point they're almost fodder, per Caedus' words himself, no less.
Jacen > Voxyn > Dog > Maul.
I am obviously joking.
But I think I need to make a RT for these faqqs, especially Vaylin, as they're damn underrated.


Anyway:
Lightsaber-User: Above Mace Windu & Tyranus, due to his superior physicals. By how much? Not sure, he's prolly Standart! Anakin level, or may even a notch above that.
Telekenetic: *Shrug* I don't recall that many impressive TK feats from him, but most of them were pre-prime, without any particulary strain. Based on the quote that put's him above Vader, it could be argued that he would be superior in TK, the probably most basic Force Power, bar argumentation, as well, but Vader is a insane Telekenetic. Anyway, based on the accolade, and him being implied to be > Durron, I would say he's likely above Vader, but at very least in his tier.
TP-User: One of the strongest TP-resistancess, but offensively I can't recall that much from him; only Illusions.
Lightning-User: Can't recall a single feat in this area from him, bar oneshotting Vergere while enraged. Not sure if he's even equal to Dooku.
Barrier-User: Same as Telekinetic
Overall Force-User: Above Vader/Kun, prolly below Revan/Krayt.
Overall combatant: Above Vader/Kun, and might even Revan.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by ILS
What character is Caedus closest to

He's a sub-Aayla phag.

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by ILS
By the way, by Windu+ I mean beyond Windu, by a clear margin.
So, you have him at a low 9 tier duelist then on the Nick scale, then?

DarthDuelist9
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Jacen > Voxyn > Dog > Maul.
I am obviously joking.
But I think I need to make a RT for these faqqs, especially Vaylin, as they're damn underrated.


Anyway:
Lightsaber-User: Above Mace Windu & Tyranus, due to his superior physicals. By how much? Not sure, he's prolly Standart! Anakin level, or may even a notch above that.
Telekenetic: *Shrug* I don't recall that many impressive TK feats from him, but most of them were pre-prime, without any particulary strain. Based on the quote that put's him above Vader, it could be argued that he would be superior in TK, the probably most basic Force Power, bar argumentation, as well, but Vader is a insane Telekenetic. Anyway, based on the accolade, and him being implied to be > Durron, I would say he's likely above Vader, but at very least in his tier.
TP-User: One of the strongest TP-resistancess, but offensively I can't recall that much from him; only Illusions.
Lightning-User: Can't recall a single feat in this area from him, bar oneshotting Vergere while enraged. Not sure if he's even equal to Dooku.
Barrier-User: Same as Telekinetic
Overall Force-User: Above Vader/Kun, prolly below Revan/Krayt.
Overall combatant: Above Vader/Kun, and might even Revan.

Wow, I actually agree with you.

paullx
Caedus>>> Vader

SunRazer
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
A case can be made that Jinn is Katarn superior

I'm liking this.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Deronn_solo

A case can be made that Jinn is Katarn superior
Do it.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm liking this.
Where do you rank Jacen?

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Do it.

I never said I'd do it, only one can possibly be made.

lmao.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I never said I'd do it, only one can possibly be made.

lmao.
Why not? smile

Trocity
Originally posted by ILS
I think Caedus is a less naturally gifted pre-suit Vader with much more Force knowledge. So, Windu+ combatant with Vader-tier power. That being based on him stalemating Jaina and throwing her around with TK despite being gimped by several circumstances. And he's stated many times to be far more powerful than her, including by her.

Originally posted by ILS
By the way, by Windu+ I mean beyond Windu, by a clear margin.

thumb up

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Why not? smile

Maybe after my Jerec v Traya --- CaV with Nova.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Maybe after my Jerec v Traya --- CaV with Nova.

Speaking of which - are you fine with handling this and the Temp debate at once, or do you want to do it after Temp?

Valkorion
caedus struggles against randos

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Jaggarath
probably should wait 15 days tbh lol

CactusJoe
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Enough to beat the sh!t out of Maul in every category.
https://www.kanyetothe.com/forum/Smileys/default/IMG_6859.png

DarthCaedus77
Lightsaber Wielder/Martial Artist: Based off his showings against Jaina, Mara and the Strike Team, all performed after crippling injuries whilst at every disadvantage possible [Yet still practically three shotting Katarn, dominating him+the team, stalemating Jaina and matching Mara are enough to say he's probably a good match for someone like Yoda.

Telekenisis Wielder: Vader level, maybe slightly above based off the accolde that says he's>Vader. While it is subjective it should be enough to say he's up there with Vader.

Telepathy: One of the best in the verse.

Force Lightning: Don't remember much tbh.

Force Barrier: Same as TK.

Overall Force User: Vader+ level.

Overall Combatant: Around Yoda level.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by ILS
What character is Caedus closest to as a:

-Lightsaber wielder/martial artist

Plagueis



Novel Vitiate



SWTOR Vitiate

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Why?

Vitiate
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Why?

DarthCaedus77
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Why?

Caedus>Vitiate.

wink

Vitiate
Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Caedus>Vitiate.

wink


Aurra Sing > Caedus



rolling on floor laughing

CuckedCurry
17BBY Vader>>>Aurra Sing

Vitiate
Originally posted by CuckedCurry
17BBY Vader>>>Aurra Sing


thumb up

Geistalt
Someone's busy sucking Vader's cock.

Vitiate
Originally posted by Geistalt
Someone's busy sucking Vader's cock.

He still has one?

TenebrousWay
Originally posted by Vitiate
He still has one?

Oof!

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Caedus>Vitiate.

wink

Originally posted by Me
Why?

The Ellimist

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Why should we buy the blurb?

The Ellimist

DarthCaedus77
Caedus>Vader.

DarthSkywalker0

The Ellimist
Ant is literally buying a Star Wars themed USB drive because he wants to read something on the back of it. We generally take all published Star Wars material as evidence unless explicitly non-canon. Caedus > Vader fits with the character profiles anyway.

DarthSkywalker0

Jaggarath
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Ant is literally buying a Star Wars themed USB drive because he wants to read something on the back of it. We generally take all published Star Wars material as evidence unless explicitly non-canon. Caedus > Vader fits with the character profiles anyway.
Not quite. The USB has information stored within it.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by Jaggarath
Not quite. The USB has information stored within it. Like a Revan Holocron?

RealistRacism
Caedus is honestly sub-Malak.

The Ellimist

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Between Nyriss and Revan smile

DarthCaedus77
Originally posted by RealistRacism
Caedus is honestly sub-Malak.

So like Kun then.

DarthCaedus77
Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Lightsaber Wielder/Martial Artist: Based off his showings against Jaina, Mara and the Strike Team, all performed after crippling injuries whilst at every disadvantage possible

Telekenisis Wielder: Vader level, maybe slightly above based off the accolde that says he's>Vader as well as scaling from Luke. While it is subjective it should be enough to say he's up there with Vader.

Telepathy: One of the best in the verse.

Force Lightning: Don't remember much tbh.

Force Barrier: Same as TK.

Overall Force User: Vader+ level.

Overall Combatant: Around Yoda level.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
So like Kun then.

Kun is not below Malak in power because of a ludicrous statement about Malak's metallic jaw.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Between Nyriss and Revan smile Great post

DarthCaedus77
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Kun is not below Malak in power because of a ludicrous statement about Malak's metallic jaw.

That quote is rock solid though and the Kun brigade hae been long since put in their place, face it your champion is sub Malak.

TenebrousWay
Ah, the irony.

DarthCaedus77
Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Ah, the irony.

I'd rather be Vader+ level than sub Malak.

Lord GOAT
Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Vader level, maybe slightly above based off the accolde that says he's>Vader as well as scaling from Luke.

So you have Caedus below Joruus?

TenebrousWay
Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Ah, the irony.

AncientPower
Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
That quote is rock solid though and the Kun brigade hae been long since put in their place, face it your champion is sub Malak.

Prove it's even referencing the Force.

@OP, Caedus is between Vader and Malak.

AntiDebater
-Lightsaber wielder/martial artist
Below Yoda, above Anakin.

-Telekinetic
Below Yoda and Kyp, above the universe.

-Telepathic
GOAT

-Force lightning'er
I don't care

-Force barrier'er
GOAT

-Overall Force user
Beats the universe except entities, Luke, Yoda, Sidious, Onimi, Nyax and Valkorion.

-Overall combatant
The same.

DarthCaedus77
Adressing Caedus's low showings!

Caedus Reigns! Ok, so Xiggy, time to put an end to you.

Aurra Sing!



Ok, so the fight opens with Sing catching Jacen off guard and immediately kicking him so hard he breaks a table and is lying on the floor disadvantaged badly. Hardly a good way for the fight to open with th advantage very much favoured towards Sing.



Jacen is now on the floor in a disadvantaged position with no leverage, trying to do everything in his power to keep himself from being killed with his eye nearly being taken out. Advantage so far remains very much in favour of Sing through no fault of Jacen't own. He's actually performed well despite disadvantaged circumstances he had no control over.



Jacen is now being hit with kicks and to all intents and purposes should be dead right now. He however has performed admirably despite a number of disadvantages working against him yet is still on the losing end.



Jacen however draws off the pain and by some miracle despite his disadvantaged circumstances the fight turns in his favour.



Jacen manages to force push her and no, this isn't unfair before you say that lol, when she literally had the rest of the fight in her favour since the beginning. Simply evening the odds.



Sing manages to disarm Jacen though he was in a disadvantaged position. Once again this fight is ridden with context and anyone trying to use it to prove Caedus isn't top tier is ridiculous. Despite you lamenting about his pain tolerance though, pain very clearly still affects and weakens Jacen as shown in the passage. His eyes are both injured and he can't see perfectly just clearly enough to be worried.



Jacen then proceeds to nearly outright kill Sing and very clearly could have done so but holds back because of Allana.



So here's the funniest part. This fight has been littered with context, Sing holding the advantage due to a surprise attack that left Jacen in a disadvantaged position, significantly injured him until he drew off the pain and ragdolled her before being disarmed in the process, due to once again his position, Jacen nearly roasts her with lightning, holds back and then gets surprise attacked. Despite surprise, Jacen being injured and unarmed Sing is still unable to overpower him and gets her arm taken conttrol of by an unarmed, injured, surprised Jacen yet you'll argue they operate on the same tier because she nearly overpowered him with a surprise attack and positional advantage. WTAF?



Jacen then nearly breaks Sing's arm after dislocating her knee and would have if not for Allana getting in the way. So an unarmed, injured Jacen who got surprise attacked dislocated Sing's knee and would have ended the fight by breaking her arm if not for Allana, once again demonstrating she's nothing but fodder to him.



The rest of the fight is essentially Jacen defending both of them from Sing while unarmed and doing everything in his power to stop her killing Allana. He was more focused on protecting her than fighting Sing and performed just fine. So Xiggy, a lesson next time not to take things out of context. What have we learned.

>Caedus started off at a positional disadvantage with his eye being burned and getting injured yet still recovered due to drawing off pain and force pushing her, getting disarmed in the process. Every disadvantage possible yet still held strong.

>Caedus would have roasted Sing with lightning if not for Allana, who distracted him, allowing Sing to surprise attack him.

>Despite his injuries, being totally unarmed and surprise attacked Jacen still fodderises Sing, catching onto and taking control of her arm, dislocating her knee and then nearly finishing the fight with an arm bar if not for determination to keep Sing away from Allana.

>Jacen still holds his own despite being far more interested in protecting Allana than beating Sing.

Conclusion: Jacen is far above Sing.

DarthCaedus77
Caedus V Mara!



So, the fights already started off poorly. Jacen's knee is already injured by Mara's surprise attack two seconds into the fight after the ambush. Note as well that Mara brought him to the tunnels specifically so she could pen him down in a tight space and then kill him with traps.



I won't bother analysing some of the other sections but will skip straight to the next physical exchange.



Jacen throws off the rubble and is ready to engage Mara, fuelled by determination.



This is despite his rather severe injuries from the collapse of the tunnel and Mara's kick to his knee just prior.



Mara then immediately injures Jacen further by catching him off guard with an attack from a vibroblade. Mara is in peak condition and fresh, meanwhile Jacen has been cut across the face, had his knee injured and the ceiling of the tunnel dropped on him. She holds every advantage possible and the real duel hasn't even began yet.



Despite everything Jacen still performs admirably, holding her off. The last sentence is probably the most important though. Space. Mara is only overpowering Jacen due to his extensive injuries making him a physical wreck in a tight space, where most of the duel relies on strength not skill, Jacen despite his injuries likely would have beaten Mara but due to the nature of the environment he's losing, and badly.



Jacen tries to fall back on darts and throwing debris but that doesn't stop the inevitability of a close quarters exchange.



It's not even a traditional lightsaber duel but a brawl relying on physical strength and with Jacen't injuries, there's nothing worse to happen.



Another confirmation of the fact that this isn't a fight reliant on skill but brute strength and Jacen's strength is failing. His lightsabre is useless in such a close quarters tunnel. Despite all this Jacen has still been holding his own for this whole exchange.



Jacen is still fighting level with her despite being battered by physical stength due to the tight space and injuries and only gets floored due the environment, ceenting the idea that even with his laundry list of injuries Jacen would have won if not for the tight space and environment.



Jacen then wins via creating an illusion after being battered some more then cheap shotting her with a dart. Mara won to all intents and purposes, but only because of a multitude of factors including excessive injury, environmental disadvantage and a brawl like fight with Jacen's stength ebbing.

What have you learned here Xiggy?

>Mara is laughably far below peak Jacen.
>Mara is still below excessively injured Jacen and would have lost on even ground with a wide open space without the environment to help her and him fighting her in a tight space that relied more on strength than skill.

Conclusion: Don't omit context.

DarthCaedus77
Caedus V Katarn And The Strike Team!



Ok, so the opening of the fight. Caedus is demonstratedly superior to Kyle in swordsmanship as I'll be covering throughout. The first indicator of this comes in the first section. Caedus negates Kyle with no effort while simultaneously ragdolling another member of the team. If Katarn was close to Caedus then surely Caedus shouldn't be able to negate his attacks so easily without even trying and while multitasking.



Caedus then floors a Jedi with ease. You think the team xan stalemate Caedus in sabers yet what have they achieved so far in the two seconds since the fight started? Absolutely nothing accept a sword strike that was easily parried by Caedus. What has Caedus achieved? Easily negating Katarn's saber strike and ragdolling a Jedi before flooring another with a kick. First two seconds clearly paints Caedus as superior.





This is perhaps your favourite line but what does it actually tell us. Your refusal to acknowledge the context of it is hilarious. The third person on looker observes the fight for absolutely zero period of time beyond a couple seconds and in those seconds the combatants look even, however you don't seem to realise that there is the opening of the fight and then what follows where Caedus is handily above the team.



Kyle's next attack barely scrapes Caedus and is once again rendered moot with him nearly losing his leg. The fact is he would have lost it but let me throw you a bone and say that somehow Kyle planned that knowing he would be protected. If we take your version Kyle was putting himself in riskier positions to have a better shot at beating Caedus knowing that the team would shield him and help him along and they coordinate perfectly yet still fails to gain any kind of an advantage over Caedus. He barely scrapes his cheek here and later you'll see how totally, helplessly outclassed the team are. At the present time Caedus has floored a team member, avoided two of Katarn's attacks with the second barely scraping his cheek and not doing shit, and ragdolled another team member, generally performing as a solid superior. The team have fought on even keel with Caedus for a few seconds and have scrapeds his cheek before barely failing to shield Katarn from Caedus, with him nearly losing a leg and the blade being batted aside.



Again one of your favourite lines. Caedus acknowledges the teams coordination is a problem, doesn't mean he's not utterly eclipsing them without difficulty contrary to your remarks. And the coordinating line still doesn't mean Katarn meant to get his leg nearly chopped off lmao.



Less relevant to the fight itself.



Further indication of Caedus's superiority to the team as if it was needed Caedus makes short work of their coordination, making two of them interfere with each other before absolutely ragdolling the other.



Katarn's next attack is casually swatted aside by Caedus as well further demonstrating the two are not on the same level. It's not just Caedus negating Katarn's attacks while making his team look like fools that makes me think Caedus is laughably far above them but it's the ease with which he's doing it. All of Kyle's attacks are parried by Caedus without any real effort on his part.



And in those fifteen seconds Caedus has demonstrated firm superiority to the team. Quick recap/summary. Caedus has ragdolled a Jedi while effortlessly negating Katarn's attack, sent a Jedi flying with a kick, avoided Kyle's kick with ease, scrwed up the teams coordination, casually ragdolled another Jedi and once again easily negated Kyle's attack for a third time.

Katarn and his strike team of fodder have briefly scraped Caaedus's cheek, fought on par with him for a couple seconds and not died yet.

Doesn't take a genius to realise who has performed better and that this team have been effortlessly and one sidedly stomped.



Dialogue exchange.



Caedus then ragdolls the Jedi again.



Caedus is keeping track of the environment, everyone else is ignoring it.



By comparison everyone else forgets about it.





Now I know everyone thinks this is a cheapshot and not a real victory but frankly it's irrelevant and doesn't change anything. Caedus still displayed firm superiority to this team throughout the whole fight, as shown above.

DarthCaedus77
Perhaps the most relevant line in the entire fight. Caedus still wasn't recovered from his fight with Luke which is the reason he got tagged and why his strength slipped further than it should have. You've attempted to discredit it by posting the below quote.



But which do you think will be more reliable. The quote about his injuries affecting him in an actual combat scenario or the quote about his injuries not affecting him while he's not fighting. I somehow think the former. You also brought up it not being mentioned until Caedus was injured further but this has what relevance exactly. SK's exhaustion wasn't mentioned later in his fight, does that mean we discount that as a factor too. Of course not, we know his injuries were a factor otherwise they wouldn't have been brought up. It wasn't just the new injuries but the old one's too and there's no reason for a new injury to suddenly affect his old one's, meaning they were a present, significant factor throughout the whole fight. Lastly you've used the below quote to discredit Caedus.



The thing is your omitting context to the Katarn was a threat quote. He also laments how laughable the team are by comparison to him even as a collective just prior. It doesn't mean Kyle is close to Caedus just that he is a threat relative to the fodder strike team he had as backup, not that that means he's close to Caedus since Caedus laughed at the thought of them engaging him.

So what have you learned for the last time Xiggy?

>The team were nowhere close to Caedus including Kyle as demonstrated by the number of physical blows he lands on them, ragdolling them with TK repeatedly and negating their attacks with ease while destroying their coordination and aren't close to him.

>Your entire case is built upon out of context quotes.

>Caedus was injured enough to affect his performance overall.

What have you learned Overall?

Don't lowball and take feats out of context.

Necromancer76
I'd say Caedus is around Revan and Darth Tenebrous level. Not too sure tho.

DarthCaedus77
Lightsaber Duellist: Between beating Sing in 4 moves while unarmed, surprised and injured, making Katarn and his team look like a bunch of idiots with ease again while injured, fighting Mara in a more brawl like fight in a tight space while incredibly injured and stalemating an amped Jaina twice while injured and holding an upper hand over non amped Jaina while injured Caedus is definitely Windu level as a saber fighter.

TK Wielder: Confirmed to be more powerful than Vader though they are ultimately on a similar level.

Telepathic: Between UnuThul saying he can no longer contain a pre prime Jacen and Jacen's own top tier telepathy feats he's definitely on a high level, exact placement relative to other characters, unsure though.

Force Lightning: Not sure exactly where but overwhelming Jaina while massively injured is a great feat.

Force Barrier: Same as TK.

Overall Combatant: Top tier imo, in the space between Plagueis/Windu and Yoda based off his feats and accolades which are extremely impressive.

CuckedCurry
just chocked on thin air

DarthCaedus77
Originally posted by CuckedCurry
just chocked on thin air

Hope you get better soon buddy.

Zamp
1st hand: summoned his own weapon back to his hand
2nd hand: managed to grab her hair
3rd hand: fumbled in his belt for a dart

jacen has a third hand confirmed for strongest human duelist: 3 > 2

Xiggy
Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Adressing Caedus's low showings!

Caedus Reigns! Ok, so Xiggy, time to put an end to you.

Merry Belated Christmas Present.

I disagree with the preface - that these are low showings. They're an aggregate of his fights throughout the series. Struggles with this level of fodder on a regular basis reflects badly on him. The stipulations don't come close to justifying this. And sometimes the stipulations are made up on your part. Against Aurra Sing, you've juxtaposed his injuries, positional disadvantage and disarmament as if she wasn't the responsible party. That they were unfair edges due to surprise. This is simply not the case.


Your Claim :





The Events of LOTF :




So he wasn't caught of guard. He knew she was attacking a several paces away. He is aware of the fight and having blocked the opener, should be expecting a follow up. He might be misguided but not a brain dead Sith-boy. He knows that a fight doesn't cease after one clash of weapons. Are you going to tell me that a Plagueis~Yoda combatant can't fend off Aurra while flicking a hand-held detonator switch - not even looking at the device in question? Yet Dooku can fend off Obi Wan while pressured by Anakin. Maul thrashes Ayla Secura while engaged with Mace. The reality is that he just wasn't reflexive enough to avoid getting floored here. Just like he wasn't good enough to instantly recover when she rounded on him while he was down. For example - a near exhausted Dooku turned his fall into a backflip when Anakin surprised him with a kick. All better feats against better characters. Aurra Sing does indeed have parity to his Force augmentation. If she could press his blade blade down close to his eye in a saber lock, then there's not likely to be a large disparity in their strength, even with the leverage advantage. She clearly can contend with his speed as further evidenced here :




The fact is that Aurra is so low on the totem poll in comparison to Plagues ~ Yoda. Anything other than a flawless speed blitzing victory is embarrassing. She would not even be able to perceive the true top tiers. But even high tiers like Maul and Dooku would still devote a single negligent attack to swat her aside. Yet Jacen here is illicitly too slow to control the fight as he intends, and could barely catch her wrist. If Force augmentation is a loose proxy for power, Aurra is indeed around Jacen's level. The fight itself is evidence of that. What you've done is fudge the details of said fight, which can be better summarised in order here :


- Aurra attacks, Jacen Parries
- She winds him with a kick, sends him crashing on a table
- While he's on the floor she attacks him again
- They saber-lock
- He just about prevents the blade from catching his eye
- He's vision is very briefly impaired by afterglow, which fades quickly
- She kicks him around for a bit with a spiked toe cap
- He empowers himself from the pain and force pushes her
- She disarms him while being force pushed
- He's inevitably to weak to incap her with TK
- He opts for lightning
- Alana bursts in, he discards lighting
- Sing charges him
- He feints her, she takes the bait
- He cartwheels over her head
- As he's landed, she spins round
- He barely catches her wrist
- He wasn't fast enough to execute the manoeuvre he intended
- He buckles her knew with a kick
- She's still fighting though
- He intended to break her arm
- Alana injects Aurra with a sedative agent


The only hinderance here is one he places on himself - the restriction of Force lighting. But as Aurra wasn't phased by the Force push. She probably could have deflected lightning with a barrier or with her lightsaber. The funniest part is that the battle ended with Jacen with the advantage - not with a personal victory. We know he intended to break her arm, but he also intended to turn he blade against her before that, which didn't work. Even if the fight does end there, he wins not because of greater power but because he's a smarter fighter, more skilled and has a useful ability to chanel pain. The final kick he delivered messes with her footwork permanently... while the injuries he sustained empower him.

So your apparent gripe with me is laughable :



When your final summarisation of the fight is this :



The reality is that Ayla Secura scored a much more decisive victory sans lighting. And some Rebellion era novel (can't remember the name) claimed Aurra's prime was during the PT. On a Gillardian scale, you want Jacen to be a low / middling 9 while he has trouble here against a high 6 ~ low 7. The best you can say here is that he's a mid-high 7. And I don't think there's canonical evidence of some massive spike in growth from here till Invincible either.

_

Xiggy
Regarding Mara

The big point is that being better - even decisively better - than this opponent on neutral ground is still buke. If the premise is Caedus ~ Yoda ~ Plagueis than superiority over Mara isn't even worth mentioning. But given how weak-sauce she is upon closer inspection I'd say anything other than a ragdolling is huge black mark against the idea. Even considering his injuries. A demonstration of her power :



The tunnel in question :




So it takes all her strength to bring down two small sections of a very tiny and poorly structured tunnel, becoming breathless after the act. She claims the impact is determined by the weight of the bricks and the short drop, as oppose to some drastic acceleration on her part. She also believed the momentum of those bricks wouldn't even cause impact injury - although it did and this is also bad for Caedus too. So she's just a plain wimp when it comes to Force power. Possibly weaker than Aurra. Certainly weaker other Jedi with better feats executed with less strain. Such as the Jedi Master who collapsed two buildings on (a very injured) Malgus. Burying him under a "mountain" of Sci-Fi concrete and steel :




Some things to note :

- Malgus had only hours ago came from fighting an entire battle
- He literally just emerged from rubble having had a small mountain collapsed on him by Satele Shan
- He's suffering severe lacerations, burns and permanent organ damage which need extensive cybernetic reparation later on
- Despite his injuries travels to the city and this new Jedi collapses two buildings on him
- He clears the avalanche of rubble with TK sending it crashing into other buildings
- The impact hasn't caused him any harm
- This Jedi - who's demonstrably more powerful than Mara - is at his mercy with any execution of his choosing
- He duels with him first, kicks him aside having sensed another random Jedi in the force, chokes the second Jedi and finally fries the original assailant with lighting
- He's twenty years form his prime
- This includes a clearly articulated power upgrade in Decieved


Hope!Malgus comes out looking vastly better. He has worse premeditated wounds that are actually justified by their cause. He's fighting a stronger opponent who he can dispose with his force powers. The only thing that's missing is the cramped space of a tunnel and Mara's skill. However, if Caedus was so much more powerful than Malgus - as you'd want him to be - he'd use TK to excavate the old tunnel as well as whatever amount of soil rests above it and create the space he desperately needs. In the same manner Malgus exploded the mountain of all that steel and concrete in the air and onto other buildings. Furthermore, the cramped horizontal space stifles Jacen's dueling far more than his Force attacks. Which he tried against Mara several times... and failed. Even in moments when there was some distance between them he could not get the upper hand :







Switch broken Caedus with broken Malgus and the dude would have just rag dolled, force choked or Force lightninged Mara. Jacen couldn't even prevent her from coming close to him. But more importantly Malgus wouldn't have been wounded when she collapsed the low ceiling of a tunnel on him, unlike Jacen, who's "badly hurt" and "broken" after the affair. Jacen is certainly weaker than Malgus here, but also weaker than many adversaries that have tanked bigger, unexpected impacts with less damage done. Like Ventress :




Ventress wasn't aware that a Bull Rancor was coming down on her. Yet she survives, Force pushes the beast asunder and is apparently fine after the impact. The obvious excuse for Jacen here would be that it was a surprise attack. That any active barrier couldn't have been erected in time to protect himself. It's probably true... but irrelevant. Because the existence of passive/lesser force barriers have been documented throughout source books and other material. This can explain the unnatural durability of Jedi. Jacen however, was expecting Mara to set a trap to "pin him down" especially after she delivered a surprise kick to his knee joint :




We can at least assume he's using the baseline level of power all jedi use to enhance their durability with. You really have to ask yourself whether a true "top tier" wouldn't prevail against the circumstances and fail to fodderize such a demonstrably weak foe in Mara. They would of course, and so would people weaker than the highest echelons of Jedi/Sith. If Malgus and Ventress are out of reach by a simple features comparison, then maybe getting shitcanned by a random Mandolorion isn't such an anomaly for Caedus.

What you have learned:

Darth Caedus : Popular with the ladies. Feeble with the fighting.


_

Xiggy
Regarding the Katarn Strike team. I'll keep this short. To only address parts of the fight where Katarn wasn't under a speeder. This is because the relevance of Caedus taking way too long to defeat three featless Jedi on their own - in any circumstance - speaks for itself. Firstly we do have summarised accounts of the short sabre-battle... before Caedus opted for TK. The first is from a Caedus cultist. The next is from an out of universe source within Legends.

DC77 fanfic :




The events of LOTF :


https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-27-2018/eM09AN.gif

So we know that whatever brief fighting there was taxed both Jacen and Kyle. That the fighting was even according to Seha dorvald. And that after Jacen realised how the team were coordinating, he perceived himself at a disadvantage. Given that the duel was tiring him out, he probably realised the sword fight would eventually be his undoing... because even though Katarn was also being taxed, the latter can rely more on his team-mates while gathering strength. And with Katarn present, the best Jacen can manage is paltry Force shoves and Karate kicks on the weaker team members in question. Which of course does nothing to the fodder Jedi and they recover from these inflictions instantly (a negative feat in itself). All the while Jacen is spending his Force energies tickling the Noob Triumvirate.

Your apparent contention to the above is :

1 - Jacen could block Katarn's opener with a Parry well embedded in his muscle memory
2 - He force shoved one fodder into another (and did so again)
3- He kicked Valin Horn square in the face

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-12-2017/hXyLdb.gif

Regarding 1 - The first parry Jacen executed doesn't prove his superiority to Kyle. The first attack is the easiest to anticipate and react to. And that Jacen could have performed the manoeuvre in his sleep (hyperbole) is evidence of how well embedded the block is in his muscle memory - i.e - he's practiced it a lot. not that Katarn is weak. After all the strike Kyle opened with could have just as easily been something exercised so often that it comes naturally to him. There's nothing to be taking from this.

Regarding points 2 and 3 - you're biggest failure in juxtaposition when it comes to Star Wars is not comparing Jacen with other fights. Because in every instance where one opponent faces a mixed bag of Jedi, the fodder always get kicked about. You want paltry kicks and trip ups to mean Caeuds is > the entire team. But that's exactly what it doesn't mean. For example :

- Dooku removed Kenobi with Tk against him and Anakin. Is he decisively better than the collective duo?
- Maul could kick Ayla Secura while blocking Mace windu. Is Maul decisively better than Mace?
- Jedi Master Judd tripped-up Savage Opress while fighting Maul. Is he better than Duo?

Regarding 3 again - That Valin gets kicked square in the face by Jacen and doesn't immediately have every bone in his face broken and his kneck snapped, means we can take him far away from Plagues tier, probably even Dooku tier. What's worse is that the kick doesn't even phase the kid. He's a scub, yet immediately rejoins the fight. Not even Jango Fett would have allowed for such a misgiving

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/3829237-jango+killing+jedi3.png

A week ago I may have thought this was a lowball. But it would explain why Caedus gets pawned by a random mandalorian in Revelations.

The obvious interpretation is that Caedus needed to remove Katarn. And while he's not powerful enough to do so through any direct manner, an indirect manner serves his purpose fine. Sith take gratification in direct superiority to their adversaries, the manner in which Katarn is disposed of proves that the team with Katarn are not easily dealt with. And that his original comment - that Katarn was a threat - was always correct. And not some arbitrary threat mind - a grave threat. We know this is true, because even with Katarn down and Kolir retreated, one of the Jedi knights in question could supersede Caedus' force augmented strength under the right circumstances - him crying over a graised knee, some healed scar tissue and having to concentrate on potential blaster fire. If you take Gillards scale and (in your opinion) imagine Caedus to be a low-middling 9 and that a random Knight would be a 4-5, you' d have to argue the circumstances could lower him 4-5 levels. But the more likely idea is that Caedus is weak enough to be susceptible to a situation like that in the first place.

DarthCaedus77
Give me a few hours, I'll make short work of this mess you call a post.

HP Legend
Absolutely beautiful. Good work. I can now lowball for my CaV.

Lord GOAT
Damn, DC got buried.

HP Legend
Originally posted by Lord GOAT
Damn, DC got buried.

Tbh.

DarthCaedus77
Originally posted by Lord GOAT
Damn, DC got buried. Originally posted by HP Legend
Absolutely beautiful. Good work. I can now lowball for my CaV.

You wish.

Lord GOAT
Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
You wish.

You know it to be true, my boi.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by HP Legend
Absolutely beautiful. Good work. I can now lowball for my CaV. Don't be too happy about this. Once the thrill of Caedus being destroyed wears off, you'll realize your brother got murdered

Lord GOAT
two big mobs

DarthCaedus77
Rebuttal to the Sing post is done, have to do the others but I've got a CAV post to type as of now.

TenebrousWay
This thread should be renamed to "Massive debunking of Cedusism"

Ursumeles
around mandalorian #77 id say

truejedi
Originally posted by Zamp
1st hand: summoned his own weapon back to his hand
2nd hand: managed to grab her hair
3rd hand: fumbled in his belt for a dart

jacen has a third hand confirmed for strongest human duelist: 3 > 2

Still my favorite thing about the entire EU universe. The way we debated star wars back then, it had to count as canon. It was in the sacred text.

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