Darth Krayt and Darth Caedus vs Tulak Hord, Aloysius Kallig, Karness Muur

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Jmanghan
Who wins?

DarthAnt66
-

Jmanghan
Changed it.

DarthAnt66
-

Jmanghan
Yeah, but just assuming they team up to defeat a common enemy.

DarthAnt66
I don't see two legendary Sith taking down three, tbh.

Krayt could very well be weaker than Hord, based on his performance against Muur's spirit. Weakened, sure.. but so was Muur.

Tondemonai
Any two from team two win.

UCanShootMyNova
The Ancients.

Trocity
I'll take two of the greatest Sith Lords with established feats over the team that is primarily hype.

Ursumeles
Duo.

Beniboybling
Duo yeah.

MythLord
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Duo yeah.
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Duo.
Originally posted by Trocity
I'll take two of the greatest Sith Lords with established feats over the team that is primarily hype.

Beniboybling
AlsoOriginally posted by DarthAnt66
Krayt could very well be weaker than HordLmfao.

AncientPower
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I don't see two legendary Sith taking down three, tbh.

Krayt could very well be weaker than Hord, based on his performance against Muur's spirit. Weakened, sure.. but so was Muur.

ILS
Team 1 rapes.

Geistalt
Originally posted by ILS
Team 1 rapes.

cs_zoltan
-

Jmanghan
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
- -

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Team 2. In a close fight.

darthbane77
Either way tbh, leaning trio though.

carthage
Originally posted by ILS
Team 1 rapes.

SunRazer
What's Ant's basis for putting Hord over all the other Ancient Sith, again?

UCanShootMyNova
It's good for Revan wank.

ares834
Originally posted by Trocity
I'll take two of the greatest Sith Lords with established feats over the team that is primarily hype.

thumb up

Nephthys
Lol, team 2 e'rrytime

Jmanghan
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
It's good for Revan wank. How?

Jmanghan
At best, you can make an argument for not believing Khem Val (which is stupid, because there are sources that back up his claims about Yn and Chabosh.)

The only source that should be up in the air is the Endar Spire feat, and even then, neither side can come up with shit.

Hord believers assume he did that because Khem Val said it, Hord non-believers believe he didn't because he was Khem Val's master, and he could be exaggerrating, however, neither side can actually say "That didn't happen".

It becomes a battle of assumptions that neither side can win, because neither side has proof.

ILS
Originally posted by Jmanghan
At best, you can make an argument for not believing Khem Val (which is stupid, because there are sources that back up his claims about Yn and Chabosh.) There is:

>What Khem Val says
>What other sources say

They are not related. You can post them in this thread, side-by-side, for everyone including yourself to see, and they won't support each other.
Well on one hand, you want people to put their belief into something that doesn't have hard evidence. On the other hand, lots of people, in the absence of hard evidence, are choosing not to believe it. Guess which side is full of shit.
Hord "non-believers" make the case that there is no evidence to support it happening, not that it definitely didn't or couldn't happen.

If someone who survived the holocaust told you that Hitler was an alien lizard sent from Saturn to enslave and murder the human race, would you believe his eye-witness testimony simply because "you can't prove he's wrong, yo!"? No? Then why do you expect people to take Khem Val's word at face value?

Also, congratulations. You have stumbled upon a basic logical principle. Just like I can't prove Hord definitely didn't do everything Val said, you can't make a case for it happening to begin with. Sort of like how you can't prove cats aren't secretly running the world.

When you can prove cats aren't part of a shadowy elite pulling all of the strings from behind the scenes, you let me know.
The only side that needs proof is the one making the claim. Can you explain to me, in plain terms, why you think someone who hasn't made a claim has to provide evidence?

Ursumeles

MythLord
He didn't even do it solo. It's confirmed he had an army backing him.

Nephthys
Different battle.

MythLord
So it is. Khem's word still shouldn't count for much.

Nephthys
They count for more than the opposition, which is nothing. An eye witness testimony is a better argument than "well maybe he didn't?" any day of the week.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by ILS
There is:

>What Khem Val says
>What other sources say

They are not related. You can post them in this thread, side-by-side, for everyone including yourself to see, and they won't support each other.
Well on one hand, you want people to put their belief into something that doesn't have hard evidence. On the other hand, lots of people, in the absence of hard evidence, are choosing not to believe it. Guess which side is full of shit.
Hord "non-believers" make the case that there is no evidence to support it happening, not that it definitely didn't or couldn't happen.

If someone who survived the holocaust told you that Hitler was an alien lizard sent from Saturn to enslave and murder the human race, would you believe his eye-witness testimony simply because "you can't prove he's wrong, yo!"? No? Then why do you expect people to take Khem Val's word at face value?

Also, congratulations. You have stumbled upon a basic logical principle. Just like I can't prove Hord definitely didn't do everything Val said, you can't make a case for it happening to begin with. Sort of like how you can't prove cats aren't secretly running the world.

When you can prove cats aren't part of a shadowy elite pulling all of the strings from behind the scenes, you let me know.
The only side that needs proof is the one making the claim. Can you explain to me, in plain terms, why you think someone who hasn't made a claim has to provide evidence? You're missing the point, which is, there ARE peoole saying that Hord should lose because there is no evidence to support him except eyewitness accounts.

So we should put him down because no one can PROVE he did those things? He should be weak and "featless" because a credible source (despite Khem Val being an eyewitness) hasn't come forward? No. Screw that.

Hitler being an Alien Wizard would be more probable in the SW Universe. You're comparing potatoes with carrots.

Our world isn't the world of SW.

In the argument against exaggeration, he's saying he saw it, whereas awhile back you quoted Anakin, who merely believes that Obi-Wan is that good. Khem Val claims to have seen it with his own two eyes.

But even without the eyewitness accounts, he has tons of accolades, and the defeat of Aloysius Kallig in single combat, who ragdolled Nox while he was way past his prime as a Sith Spirit.

Thats already crazy power right there, because he already had a few ghosts supporting him.

Anyway, the whole point of my argument is that people can't claim Hord isn't a powerhouse, or that he's weak just because they choose not to believe the hype and act like their word is law.

Meanwhile, you can still prove Hord is a powerhouse without Khem Val even thrown into the mix. #1 is beating Aloysius Kallig. #2 is Kreia and Avellone's quotes, among tons of other quotes claiming he's a legendary duelist. So now we have not 1, but 2 sources, one in-game and one that has position of authority irl in terms of SW.

Whether or not it was for the next game is irrelevant.

MythLord
Originally posted by Nephthys
They count for more than the opposition, which is nothing. An eye witness testimony is a better argument than "well maybe he didn't?" any day of the week.

I witnessed a potato grow legs and walk. BELIEVE ME!

Jmanghan
Originally posted by MythLord
I witnessed a potato grow legs and walk. BELIEVE ME! Khem Val isn't listing some unbelievable thing like that though.

He has listed something that is certainly plausible in the world of Star Wars.

You saying that you watched a potato growing legs isn't in the realm of realism in our world.

Nor is ILS' with his whole holocaust analogy.

ILS
"Should lose" is synonymous with "doesn't have enough evidence to win" in these kinds of debates. If you want to be super technical, you could say that we don't have enough data to make a decision.

It's the Hord camp which insists he does have the data, even though he doesn't.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman
Kind of missing the point. I'm challenging your logical premise by using it an example. If we can believe Khem Val on his word alone, we can believe just about anyone who is an eye-witness on their word alone. And you won't have to go very far on google to find plenty of "eye-witnesses" who make claims even Tulak Hord fans find outlandish.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoqueWhich is nice, it really is, but it doesn't add any validity to Val's statement.I don't really care for the Kallig thing at the moment. As for Kreia/Avellone - Avellone has authority over Kreia, since he created her, but not characters outside of that realm. Did Avellone create Tulak?

ILS
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Khem Val isn't listing some unbelievable thing like that though.

He has listed something that is certainly plausible in the world of Star Wars.

You saying that you watched a potato growing legs isn't in the realm of realism in our world.

Nor is ILS' with his whole holocaust analogy. Regardless of how believable you find something - and your personal feelings are irrelevant - it's still using exactly the same logic as you. And by not taking every single eye-witness on their word, you're being a hypocrite.

MythLord
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Khem Val isn't listing some unbelievable thing like that though.

He has listed something that is certainly plausible in the world of Star Wars.

You saying that you watched a potato growing legs isn't in the realm of realism in our world.

Nor is ILS' with his whole holocaust analogy.

What you consider believable is irrelevant. And maybe my religion entitles me to believe a potato can walk? What now? Will you believe me?

I grew up on a farm that was targeted for chemical and scientific experiments for the government. They tested some sh!t and one of the potatos just got up and walked out of there... I saw it. My eye-witness account holds as much weight as Khem Val's.

Potatos walk, and Hord slaughters thousands of Jedi. #trufactz

Nephthys
That's a ridiculous false equivalency. Absurdities can be dismissed easily and proven wrong, Khem's account cannot. Eye-witness testimony is good enough for court for deciding lives, it's good enough in an online debating forum.

Don't be a prat.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
That's a ridiculous false equivalency. Absurdities can be dismissed easily and proven wrong, Khem's account cannot. Eye-witness testimony is good enough for court for deciding lives, it's good enough in an online debating forum.

Don't be a prat. #triggered

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Nephthys
That's a ridiculous false equivalency. Absurdities can be dismissed easily and proven wrong, Khem's account cannot. Eye-witness testimony is good enough for court for deciding lives, it's good enough in an online debating forum.

Don't be a prat.
And I saw how my dog has killed 25 man.
This isn't a absurdity. But is it true?

MythLord
Originally posted by Nephthys
That's a ridiculous false equivalency. Absurdities can be dismissed easily and proven wrong, Khem's account cannot. Eye-witness testimony is good enough for court for deciding lives, it's good enough in an online debating forum.

Don't be a prat.

So a mutation of nature is called an absurdity, but some mook we barely know anything about slaughtering thousands of Jedi isn't? LMAO, the bias is strong.

It's the exact same thing. Actually, mine at least has an explanation that makes it plausible. Khem Val just said: "Oh he did this!"

A walking potatoe is more valid than Tulak Hord singlehandedly killing a thousand Jedi. Eat it. The potatoe, I mean

Nephthys
Originally posted by Ursumeles
And I saw how my dog has killed 25 man.
This isn't a absurdity. But is it true?

It is an absurdity, and verifiably a lie. Khem's statement is neither.

Originally posted by MythLord
So a mutation of nature is called an absurdity, but some mook we barely know anything about slaughtering thousands of Jedi isn't? LMAO, the bias is strong.

It's the exact same thing. Actually, mine at least has an explanation that makes it plausible. Khem Val just said: "Oh he did this!"

A walking potatoe is more valid than Tulak Hord singlehandedly killing a thousand Jedi. Eat it. The potatoe, I mean

And what we do know is that he's ridiculously strong. Everything we know about him is about how strong of a warrior he is. It isn't absurd and could easily have happened and in fact did. A walking potato is impossible.

It isn't remotely the same thing. You're just being stupid.

Beniboybling
Hord never single-handedly killed a thousand Jedi anyway so who cares.

MythLord
Originally posted by Nephthys
And what we do know is that he's ridiculously strong. Everything we know about him is about how strong of a warrior he is. It isn't absurd and could easily have happened and in fact did.

Being incredibly strong doesn't mean you can automatically slaughter a thousand Jedi, laughing out loud
You're reaching for high heavens.

Originally posted by Nephthys
A walking potato is impossible.

But it was mutated. I gave it chemicals and it became incredibly strong!

Originally posted by Nephthys
It isn't remotely the same thing.

It is exactly the same thing.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're just being stupid.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f4/e5/e2/f4e5e23f994fcc60ab69f278c269e8d0.jpg

Nephthys
Naturally, it merely makes it very plausible that you can.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but potato's don't have a skeletal structure, a brain or really any of the biological components necessary to walk. Also, this is real life. Look at your hand. It real bro.

MythLord
Originally posted by Nephthys
Naturally, it merely makes it very plausible that you can.

Shaak Ti can do it then. Plo Koon. Kit Fisto. Saesee Tiin. Ahsoka Tano. Sylvar. Celeste Morne. Visas Marr. Krayt. Shogar Tok. Adam Sandler. All incredibly strong duelists.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but potato's don't have a skeletal structure, a brain or really any of the biological components necessary to walk. Also, this is real life. Look at your hand. It real bro.

I don't need a lecture about anatomy or biology from you, thanks. And I'm sure you're aware that there are living beings that do not have a proper skeletal structure and still are capable of movement?

Also, you're not listening to me: scientists genetically changed the potato so it can walk. I saw them do it, and I saw it walk. It has incredibly strong legs.

Nephthys
Originally posted by MythLord
Shaak Ti can do it then. Plo Koon. Kit Fisto. Saesee Tiin. Ahsoka Tano. Sylvar. Celeste Morne. Visas Marr. Krayt. Shogar Tok. Adam Sandler. All incredibly strong duelists.

None of them have though. no

You can't just say that they can without any evidence, thats just speculation. Hord on the other hand, did do it and you're utterly unable to prove that he didn't.

I'm sorry this upsets you.

Originally posted by MythLord
I don't need a lecture about anatomy or biology from you, thanks. And I'm sure you're aware that there are living beings that do not have a proper skeletal structure and still are capable of movement?

Also, you're not listening to me: scientists genetically changed the potato so it can walk. I saw them do it, and I saw it walk. It has incredibly strong legs.

I think maybe you do if you think that this is worth the time to disprove it. It is ~impossible~, whereas Hord's feat is plausible given his abilities. Scientists can't make potatoes walk.

ILS
The second Neph denies someone else's eye witness testimony of something off-screen, I'm probably going to cum a little bit. This is golden.

The_Tempest
Remember, folks. Unverified opinions and accounts are only reliable when they make someone Neph likes look good. Otherwise it's rubbish.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Hord never single-handedly killed a thousand Jedi anyway so who cares. No one said he did.

Those that say that he did have clearly misinterpreted the quote.

He single-handedly broke the siege of Yn. He had an army with him at Chabosh.

The_Tempest
As far as Hord TK'ing a capital ship, how do we know he didn't merely TK the controls?

Or is that just when PT Force users do it?

Beniboybling
@Jman, Neph and Myth are literally debating whether a made up feat is made up or not, yah.

But actually the SWTOR Codex indicates an army was present in both battles:
And then Khem contradicts himself by claiming that despite Hord breaking the siege single-handedly, he was present and fought in the battle. mmm

Beniboybling
Originally posted by The_Tempest
As far as Hord TK'ing a capital ship, how do we know he didn't merely TK the controls?

Or is that just when PT Force users do it? yes

The_Tempest
lol @ Beni

Don't be ridiculous: just because Khem Val was shown to be inaccurate/dishonest/flat out wrong doesn't mean we have sufficient grounds to doubt what he says about other stuff.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by The_Tempest
As far as Hord TK'ing a capital ship, how do we know he didn't merely TK the controls?

Or is that just when PT Force users do it?

PT is exaggerated, TOR is not smile

Nephthys
The salt is real.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
No one said he did.

Those that say that he did have clearly misinterpreted the quote.

He single-handedly broke the siege of Yn. He had an army with him at Chabosh.

Well actually its stated that he defeated thousands in those two battles and at Chabosh that there were a thousand there. So logically Yn would have to also be a thousand. :shrug:

Originally posted by Beniboybling
@Jman, Neph and Myth are literally debating whether a made up feat is made up or not, yah.

But actually the SWTOR Codex indicates an army was present in both battles:
And then Khem contradicts himself by claiming that despite Hord breaking the siege single-handedly, he was present and fought in the battle. mmm

I think you might have missed the full stop at the end of the first sentence. It seperates it from the second one. Just because it says he had an army which helped him achieve victory doesn't mean they were present at his back at all times or in both occasions. They were present at Chabosh, not Yn. Which satisfies the burden of the sentence. Or, if they were at Yn, they were the ones being besieged and Hord took it upon himself to break the siege by himself.

Azronger
Even if we assume the feat happened for the sake of discussion, it's still not that good, tbh. Krayt's satellite scaling trumps it easily.

But I'd still give this to team 2, mainly because of Muur's presence.

MythLord
Originally posted by Nephthys
None of them have though. no

You can't just say that they can without any evidence, thats just speculation. Hord on the other hand, did do it and you're utterly unable to prove that he didn't.

I'm sorry this upsets you.

I cannot prove a negative, darling. And wait, where's the proof he did? The only "proof" is Khem Val, who likely lied. Other than that what backs it up? His hype that just has him as being "incredibly strong"?

Now we're back to square one.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think maybe you do if you think that this is worth the time to disprove it. It is ~impossible~, whereas Hord's feat is plausible given his abilities. Scientists can't make potatoes walk.

His abilities are that he's "extremely strong". That doesn't make it plausible. Meanwhile scientists are slowly mastering genetic engineering, so a walking potato would one day be actually plausible.

What I'm saying is the chance that potato will walk is greater than the chance that Hord can solo a thousand Jedi.

The_Tempest
Double standards galore and now shifting of the burden of proof?

Ironic that this is Neph on a good day.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Nephthys
The salt is real.



Well actually its stated that he defeated thousands in those two battles and at Chabosh that there were a thousand there. So logically Yn would have to also be a thousand. :shrug:



I think you might have missed the full stop at the end of the first sentence. It seperates it from the second one. Just because it says he had an army which helped him achieve victory doesn't mean they were present at his back at all times or in both occasions. They were present at Chabosh, not Yn. Which satisfies the burden of the sentence. Or, if they were at Yn, they were the ones being besieged and Hord took it upon himself to break the siege by himself. ...Uh, when is that even remotely stated.

All Khem Val ever says is that Hord single-handedly broke the Siege of Yn.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
@Jman, Neph and Myth are literally debating whether a made up feat is made up or not, yah.

But actually the SWTOR Codex indicates an army was present in both battles:
And then Khem contradicts himself by claiming that despite Hord breaking the siege single-handedly, he was present and fought in the battle. mmm Yeah, breaking the siege isn't winning the battle.

Nephthys
Originally posted by MythLord
I cannot prove a negative, darling. And wait, where's the proof he did? The only "proof" is Khem Val, who likely lied. Other than that what backs it up? His hype that just has him as being "incredibly strong"?

Now we're back to square one.

If you're arguing that he didn't do it then you do actually need to have an argument rather than just saying Khem "likely lied". You've got ****-all nothing and in essence this entire discussion is just a massive waste of time.

I already told you at the start, Khem's statement is worth infinitely more than "uM, well maybe he didn't do it...." You haven't disproved it other than to say you think it's dumb. Which I'm sorry to hear about but really isn't interesting enough to maintain my goodwill sufficiently to keep wasting time on your tantrums.

Originally posted by MythLord
His abilities are that he's "extremely strong". That doesn't make it plausible. Meanwhile scientists are slowly mastering genetic engineering, so a walking potato would one day be actually plausible.

What I'm saying is the chance that potato will walk is greater than the chance that Hord can solo a thousand Jedi.

Why isn't it plausible? Just because you don't like it? Sorry, but that's not good enough sweetheart. Come back when you actually have something to say that's more than absurd drivel and concessions.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
...Uh, when is that even remotely stated.

All Khem Val ever says is that Hord single-handedly broke the Siege of Yn.

Swtore and the codex, iirc. One quote says he fought a thousand at Chabosh and another says he fought thousands all together.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
I think you might have missed the full stop at the end of the first sentence. It seperates it from the second one. Just because it says he had an army which helped him achieve victory doesn't mean they were present at his back at all times or in both occasions. They were present at Chabosh, not Yn. Which satisfies the burden of the sentence. Or, if they were at Yn, they were the ones being besieged and Hord took it upon himself to break the siege by himself. confused

What a completely meaningless thing to say lol, the first sentence sets the contexts for the second one i.e. the battles of Yn and Chabosh, in which he had an army of dark side warriors at his side. You are welcome to contrive various workaround to make it fit but it remains a fact that the most obvious and straightforward reading is that he fought both these battles with them at his side.

Khem casts a measure of doubt on this reading, but compromises his own reliability by contradicting himself, in which case I'm inclined to believe the simple reading is the correct one.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by The_Tempest
As far as Hord TK'ing a capital ship, how do we know he didn't merely TK the controls?

Or is that just when PT Force users do it? Thats definitely a possibility, I mean, Khem Val can't exactly see inside the ship.

Although I'd put Khem Val above K'Kruhk, let-alone Tulak Hord, which makes it at least a plausible possibility that he could have dragged it out of the sky.

Holisticially, he could do all these things.

I'll never understand the hate of the Ancients.

Hell, when I provided Myth proof that Ragnos' equipment amps him, he continually said it didn't, for no reason, despite me showing quotes of it amping him.

MythLord
Originally posted by Nephthys
If you're arguing that he didn't do it then you do actually need to have an argument rather than just saying Khem "likely lied". You've got ****-all nothing and in essence this entire discussion is just a massive waste of time.

I already told you at the start, Khem's statement is worth infinitely more than "uM, well maybe he didn't do it...." You hasn't disproved it other than to say you think it's dumb. Which I'm sorry to hear about but really isn't interesting enough to maintain my goodwill.

Khem Val has constantly contradicted himself in the past, is Hord's lapdog pet, and obviously enjoys giving his master a good old fashioned wank-job.
I trust him on this subject as much as I'd trust you if you tell me burning metal is similar to overpowering a lightsaber blade.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why isn't is plausible? Just because you don't like it? Sorry, but that's not good enough sweetheart. Come back when you actually have something to say that's more than absurd drivel and concessions.

I explained why it isn't plausible. And what concessions, Neph? I know it must be hard to read at the level you're operating on, atm, but can you try to comprehend, plz.

MythLord
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Although I'd put Khem Val above K'Kruhk

K'kruhk would kick Val's shit in, lmao.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Hell, when I provided Myth proof that Ragnos' equipment amps him, he continually said it didn't, for no reason, despite me showing quotes of it amping him.

Wut?

Jmanghan
Originally posted by MythLord
K'kruhk would kick Val's shit in, lmao.



Wut? "Powerful dark side artifact" means an amp to the person using it.

It was in our argument in the Luke vs Ancients thread.

Plain and simple.

Anyway, you gave valid reasons, except, Beni and you misinterpreted Val talking about Yn.

Breaking the siege (again) isn't winning the battle.

It just means he charged head-first into the army single-handedly and fought off their front lines.

MythLord
Originally posted by Jmanghan
"Powerful dark side artifact" means an amp to the person using it.

It was in our argument in the Luke vs Ancients thread.

Plain and simple.

You think I remember all our arguments? Lmao. What was the topic in question? Just Luke vs Ragnos, or...? I'm pretty sure I never questioned Marka amping himself off of artifacts, I just noted it wouldn't make him on par with Jacen, who got whooped by Luke.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Anyway, you gave valid reasons, except, Beni and you misinterpreted Val talking about Yn.

Breaking the siege (again) isn't winning the battle.

It just means he charged head-first into the army single-handedly and fought off their front lines.

So he charged at a thousand Jedi, and fought off a few? Guess that works, and it makes more sense than Neph arguing he can solo a thousand Jedi cuz he's incredibly strong!

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Anyway, you gave valid reasons, except, Beni and you misinterpreted Val talking about Yn.

Breaking the siege (again) isn't winning the battle.

It just means he charged head-first into the army single-handedly and fought off their front lines. True, but that only diminishes the feat.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Beniboybling
confused

What a completely meaningless thing to say lol, the first sentence sets the contexts for the second one i.e. the battles of Yn and Chabosh, in which he had an army of dark side warriors at his side. You are welcome to contrive various workaround to make it fit but in remains a fact that the most obvious and straightforward reading is that he fought both these battles with them at his side.

Khem casts a measure of doubt on this reading, but compromises his own reliability by contradicting himself, in which case I'm inclined to believe the simple reading is the correct one.

No it doesn't. As I said, there's no need in the statement for the army to have been present at all times or at both battles. Merely him using one at some point fulfills the requirement of the statement.

The fact is that Khem does indeed contradict your reading and your supposition isn't equal to his testimony. Nor does Khem contradict himself, that's once again just your supposition. Even if Khem was present he needn't have fought in the actual battle. You dismiss me for contriving workarounds, but the fact is that those workarounds do exist and Khem's statement supports them. Therefore there's no need for any contradiction to take place between any of the sources, which is unequivocally the more straightforward and correct reading compared to your interpretation.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
True, but that only diminishes the feat. Yeah, but it would mean he had to fight through part of the army on his own, with Khem Val and the rest following after.

Which still makes it impressive.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Nephthys
It is an absurdity, and verifiably a lie.
No, it isn't an absurdity, bcz my Dog is super strong, he could solo 25 mans with ease. Also, I saw it with my own eyes!

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Nephthys
No it doesn't. As I said, there's no need in the statement for the army to have been present at all times or at both battles. Merely him using one at some point fulfills the requirement of the statement.

The fact is that Khem does indeed contradict your reading and your supposition isn't equal to his testimony. Nor does Khem contradict himself, that's once again just your supposition. Even if Khem was present he needn't have fought in the actual battle. You dismiss me for contriving workarounds, but the fact is that those workarounds do exist and Khem's statement supports them. Therefore there's no need for any contradiction to take place between any of the sources, which is unequivocally the more straightforward and correct reading compared to your interpretation. Honestly, thats stupid.

Khem Val isn't gonna hang back unless Hord directly orders him to.

I doubt he would, given the odds.

MythLord
thumb up

Even Jmangoham realizes this, Neph. Y cant u?

Nephthys
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Anyway, you gave valid reasons, except, Beni and you misinterpreted Val talking about Yn.

Breaking the siege (again) isn't winning the battle.

It just means he charged head-first into the army single-handedly and fought off their front lines.

Unfortunately you're the one misinterprating things, because Khem claims that he broke the siege singlehandedly and then continued on to Chabosh, leaving nothing but jedi blood in his wake.

Originally posted by MythLord
Khem Val has constantly contradicted himself in the past, is Hord's lapdog pet, and obviously enjoys giving his master a good old fashioned wank-job.
I trust him on this subject as much as I'd trust you if you tell me burning metal is similar to overpowering a lightsaber blade.

You're lying about him contradicting himself and the only reason he loved Hord so much is because he was so strong. Lying about his strength would indeed be a contradiction. There's ultimately no reason to disbelieve him other than that you want to.

Originally posted by MythLord
I explained why it isn't plausible. And what concessions, Neph? I know it must be hard to read at the level you're operating on, atm, but can you try to comprehend, plz.

No you didn't. You pissed and moaned that you didn't think it should be possible. Surprisingly, your opinion isn't evidence for much. And you conceded that your idiotic potato thing was impossible, effectively demonstrating the difference between an actual absurdity and your biased opinion of what should be one.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Honestly, thats stupid.

Khem Val isn't gonna hang back unless Hord directly orders him to.

I doubt he would, given the odds.

Given Hord won, it's not so stupid and the odds not so great. Hord could have wanted to show off.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
No it doesn't. As I said, there's no need in the statement for the army to have been present at all times or at both battles. Merely him using one at some point fulfills the requirement of the statement.

The fact is that Khem does indeed contradict your reading and your supposition isn't equal to his testimony. Nor does Khem contradict himself, that's once again just your supposition. Even if Khem was present he needn't have fought in the actual battle. You dismiss me for contriving workarounds, but the fact is that those workarounds do exist and Khem's statement supports them. Therefore there's no need for any contradiction to take place between any of the sources, which is unequivocally the more straightforward and correct reading compared to your interpretation. Uhuh, point is its a contrived reading because the entry doesn't specify one or the other, and in that way you're constructing contexts.

And lmao, Khem reminds you he fought in the battle of Yn ad verbatim, its literally his f*cking catchphrase. Here let me jog your memory:

And no, fighting at just one does not fulfil the burden of the testimonAY!

But yeah, Jman has offered the best reading so far, that Tulak just beat them back, not defeat them. That or Khem is a big fat liar who can't be trusted on the topic of his master. smile

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Nephthys
Unfortunately you're the one misinterprating things, because Khem claims that he broke the siege singlehandedly and then continued on to Chabosh, leaving nothing but jedi blood in his wake.



You're lying about him contradicting himself and the only reason he loved Hord so much is because he was so strong. Lying about his strength would indeed be a contradiction. There's ultimately no reason to disbelieve him other than that you want to.



No you didn't. You pissed and moaned that you didn't think it should be possible. Surprisingly, your opinion isn't evidence for much. And you conceded that your idiotic potato thing was impossible, effectively demonstrating the difference between an actual absurdity and your biased opinion of what should be one.



Given Hord won, it's not so stupid and the odds not so great. Hord could have wanted to show off.

Mmkay, so thats a lie.

Thats a possibility, but its an unlikely one.

Could I have a quote for Hord slaughtering thousands of Jedi?

I don't think a single source has ever said such a thing.

MythLord
Originally posted by Nephthys
You're lying about him contradicting himself and the only reason he loved Hord so much is because he was so strong. Lying about his strength would indeed be a contradiction. There's ultimately no reason to disbelieve him other than that you want to.

Yes I lied! I was taught that art by Khem Val.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No you didn't. You pissed and moaned that you didn't think it should be possible. Surprisingly, your opinion isn't evidence for much. And you conceded that your idiotic potato thing was impossible, effectively demonstrating the difference between an actual absurdity and your biased opinion of what should be one.

I never said it's impossible, and it isn't. Walking potatoes shall remain a thing as long as Hord killing a thousand Jedi singlehandedly remains a thing. Get with the times.

http://www.atlascorps.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/peanuts.gif

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Yeah, but it would mean he had to fight through part of the army on his own, with Khem Val and the rest following after.

Which still makes it impressive. Not much more impressive than Act 1 Wrath taking on 1,000 of the Republic's best soldiers on Balmorra tbh.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not much more impressive than Act 1 Wrath taking on 1,000 of the Republic's best soldiers on Balmorra tbh. He won?

Beniboybling
Err yes, its a quest.

Jmanghan
Anyway, hyping Hord up is easy if you use his Kaggath with Kallig, who, as a post-prime Sith Spirit, was able to ragdoll an early Nox, who already had like 2 Sith Spirits.

Beniboybling
He still loses.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Uhuh, point is its a contrived reading because the entry doesn't specify one or the other, and in that way you're constructing contexts.

And lmao, Khem reminds you he fought in the battle of Yn ad verbatim, its literally his f*cking catchphrase. Here let me jog your memory:

And no, fighting at just one does not fulfil the burden of the testimonAY!

But yeah, Jman has offered the best reading so far, that Tulak just beat them back, not defeat them. That or Khem is a big fat liar who can't be trusted on the topic of his master. smile

It's hardly contrived when the only other account of it supports that reading.

He devoured them after the battle. Khem even indicates this in his own account.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Mmkay, so thats a lie.

Thats a possibility, but its an unlikely one.

Could I have a quote for Hord slaughtering thousands of Jedi?

I don't think a single source has ever said such a thing.

"One of Khem Val's proudest victories came during the Battle of Chabosh, where he fought by Tulak Hord's side to conqueror an army of Jedi 1,000 strong."

"Under Tulak Hords command, Khem Val consumed the energy of thousands of Jedi in ancient battles waged on the planets of Yn and Chabosh."

Originally posted by MythLord
Yes I lied! I was taught that art by Khem Val.



I never said it's impossible, and it isn't. Walking potatoes shall remain a thing as long as Hord killing a thousand Jedi singlehandedly remains a thing. Get with the times.

http://www.atlascorps.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/peanuts.gif

Gosh. 2 edgy.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Nephthys
It's hardly contrived when the only other account of it supports that reading.

He devoured them after the battle. Khem even indicates this in his own account.



"One of Khem Val's proudest victories came during the Battle of Chabosh, where he fought by Tulak Hord's side to conqueror an army of Jedi 1,000 strong."

"Under Tulak Hords command, Khem Val consumed the energy of thousands of Jedi in ancient battles waged on the planets of Yn and Chabosh."



Gosh. 2 edgy. That doesn't prove that it was Hord's doing, because he had an army in both battles.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
It's hardly contrived when the only other account of it supports that reading.The number of sources that support your reading is actually rapidly approaching zero. mmm

laughing out loud

Oh the straw grasping. So Khem decided to sit the battle out before picking at what was left of the corpses afterwards? How retarded lol, their life energies would've long since departed by then, and in combat he devours his opponents immediately after death.

More to the point, Khem states he did this together with his master, elsewhere he states that "Veshik Urk and I followed our masters into war" and also "I remember the craters and trenches of Yn and Chabosh. The terror of the dying. It was glorious."

One of in combat catchphrases (while fighting!) also being that he hasn't felt this alive since Yn and Chabosh, or to that effect. But no, I sure that was a bug and it was meant to happen afterward when you loot the corpses, lmao.

You're as laughable amusing as ever Neph. thumb up

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
He still loses. He won that Kaggath though?...

Beniboybling
Yeah and he'll lose this fight.

ares834
Originally posted by Beniboybling
But actually the SWTOR Codex indicates an army was present in both battles:
And then Khem contradicts himself by claiming that despite Hord breaking the siege single-handedly, he was present and fought in the battle. mmm

And so the Hord wank comes crashing down.

ILS
thumb up

The_Tempest
Originally posted by ares834
And so the Hord wank comes crashing down.

Or the Codex and the English language are both wrong, fool. smile

#nephlogic

Nephthys
So mean! https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-qq.gif

The_Tempest
Trying to help you out, bro!

Tondemonai
Man, the lowballing here is far more cancerous than any form of wanking ever was

MythLord
Yeah. Krayt and Caedus were really lowballed here.

Tondemonai
Kek, everyone here is barely above Canon Vader, but Karness and Hord more so.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Tondemonai
Man, the lowballing here is far more cancerous than any form of wanking ever was Not possible with Neph, Ant and AP involved sry.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Tondemonai
Kek, everyone here is barely above Canon Vader, but Karness and Hord more so.
Lol @Kallig/Hord > Vader(if Legends or Canon)
Also, based on Canon Vader's hype, he is > Krayt ~ Jacen > Legends Vader > Muur > Hord > Kallig.

Petrus
What's up with this forum and Kallig lately?

MythLord
Canon Vader ain't > these guys... at all. Well, except for Kallig.

Petrus
Kallig's supposed to be close to Hord, though.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by MythLord
Canon Vader ain't > these guys... at all. Well, except for Kallig.
Canon Vader > Hord.
Also, I said based on hype, like him being more skilled than Sidious. Dunno if that's an objective accolade, though.

Beniboybling
Hord is Nox level yeah.

Ursumeles
Hord dies.

MythLord
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Hord is Nox level yeah.

A level my dog can claim...

Petrus
Nah. Nox deserves respect.

UCanShootMyNova
thumb up

MythLord
sick

UCanShootMyNova
She's a bit above Dooku in Force. Probably around Dooku overall. smile

Ursumeles
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
She's a bit above Dooku in Force. Probably around Dooku overall. smile She is > Dooku because..?

cs_zoltan
Because she was born in TOR and is a playable character.

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by Ursumeles
She is > Dooku because..?

Tanked Thanaton's all out attack when Thanaton was powerful enough to take out Nox as of Act II.

cs_zoltan
>All out attack
>Was already beaten and depleted

K.

UCanShootMyNova
Now we're taking Force exhaustion into account? Didn't see much of that in your debates on the TFUII fight.

Guess it should be expected from someone who legitimately thinks Mace could give Sidious a good fight unamped. smile

Ursumeles
Ragdolling Kenobi and Cruisers > resisting Thanaton.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Now we're taking Force exhaustion into account? Didn't see much of that in your debates on the TFUII fight.

Nox had Thanaton dead to rights, don't know how tanking an attack in such a state constitues as Dooku+...

Kenobi could ragdoll Anakin in this state:

http://www.jeditemplearchives.com/galleries/2012/Review_AnakinSkywalkerBattleDamageROTS/Review_AnakinSkywalkerBattleDamageROTS_stillB.JPG

I guess that makes him Yoda+ thumb up

And I also don't know how TFU II has to do with anything here either.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Guess it should be expected from someone who legitimately thinks Mace could give Sidious a good fight unamped. smile

Nice try at ad hominem, sadly you are retarded. As usual. I have 2 sources backing me, you on the other hand only have your addled brain thumb up

MythLord
Dooku would probably laugh at Thanaton's general direction.

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Nox had Thanaton dead to rights, don't know how tanking an attack in such a state constitues as Dooku+...

Kenobi could ragdoll Anakin in this state:

http://www.jeditemplearchives.com/galleries/2012/Review_AnakinSkywalkerBattleDamageROTS/Review_AnakinSkywalkerBattleDamageROTS_stillB.JPG

I guess that makes him Yoda+ thumb up

And I also don't know how TFU II has to do with anything here either.



Nice try at ad hominem, sadly you are retarded. As usual. I have 2 sources backing me, you on the other hand only have your addled brain thumb up

Dead to rights?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-92PJMyYOYg

2:25 onwards.

Please explain to me why Thanaton's state at that time would be in any way similar to Anakin's.

The fact that you declare Vader blatantly superior to Starkiller without acknowledging the exact reasoning your providing for why Thanaton would have been weaker in his fight against Nox, the only difference being Galen have expended vastly greater amounts of energy prior.

You have one source stating Mace as a high tier 8 with the differences between tiers being stated to be enormous by the guy who made them and then the RotS novel showing Mace couldn't even react past raising his blade as 2 of his companions were blitzed. You have nothing.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Hord is Nox level yeah. Aloysius Kallig should probably still ragdoll at the end of Nox' story.

Hord is his equal.

Beniboybling
an quality logic.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
an quality logic. I highly doubt Nox has gone from getting ragdolled by Kallig, while he has two ghosts, to defeating him.

Beniboybling
You mean like he went from getting one-shotted by Thanaton, to demolishing him?

Tondemonai
Originally posted by Jmanghan
I highly doubt Nox has gone from getting ragdolled by Kallig, while he has two ghosts, to defeating him.

She got ragdolled by him once, which was before she even left Dromund Kaas laughing out loud

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
You mean like he went from getting one-shotted by Thanaton, to demolishing him? Baras dominated Angral with force lightning, but when they fought for real, Angral was holding his own pretty well.

MythLord
Originally posted by Jmanghan
I highly doubt Nox has gone from getting ragdolled by Kallig, while he has two ghosts, to defeating him.

Nox didn't have two ghosts, lmao. Nox only started gathering ghosts after their fourth encounter, or so. Kallig is > Hord, btw. So nah, Hord doesn't ragdoll sh!t.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by MythLord
Nox didn't have two ghosts, lmao. Nox only started gathering ghosts after their fourth encounter, or so. Kallig is > Hord, btw. So nah, Hord doesn't ragdoll sh!t. Hord defeated Kallig, possibly twice.

MythLord
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Hord defeated Kallig, possibly twice.

By ambush. Historians have claimed Nox's ancestor was the most powerful Sith of his day. He's > Hord. Or at least ~ Hord.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by MythLord
By ambush. Historians have claimed Nox's ancestor was the most powerful Sith of his day. He's > Hord. Or at least ~ Hord. Their first fight was a 1v1 duel.

MythLord
Quote, plz.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by MythLord
Quote, plz.

Jmanghan
You could argue that it wasn't Kallig, since it never mentions him by name. I can't imagine who else it would be though.

Actually, where does it say that Tulak Hord had him killed? As opposed to just betrayed him and then fought him.

MythLord
I mean, Tulak Hord ordered that Kallig's name be removed from history. So no historian would know about it, and ironically Nox finds out the name of her ancestor through a historian.

SunRazer
Neither of those quotes say that it was a lightsaber duel. The first one implies otherwise, if anything.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by SunRazer
Neither of those quotes say that it was a lightsaber duel. The first one implies otherwise, if anything. One of the phases of a Kaggath is a duel, yes.

Not sure why you're trying to argue against that.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Baras dominated Angral with force lightning, but when they fought for real, Angral was holding his own pretty well. That never happened, Angral shrugged off his lightning with little effort.

Anyway Kallig ragdolled Nox before even that so there's no comparison, Nox could have easily entered into Hord's stratosphere by the end of Act III.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Jmanghan
One of the phases of a Kaggath is a duel, yes.

Not sure why you're trying to argue against that. The Kaggath doesn't have phases, there are no rules as to how you must kill your opponent and Kallig died by ambush.

Or if there was a duel, it was evidently inconclusive otherwise Kallig would have been killed.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
The Kaggath doesn't have phases, there are no rules as to how you must kill your opponent and Kallig died by ambush.

Or if there was a duel, it was evidently inconclusive otherwise Kallig would have been killed.

The point of a Kaggath is humiliation.

A Kaggath does indeed have phases.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
That never happened, Angral shrugged off his lightning with little effort.

Anyway Kallig ragdolled Nox before even that so there's no comparison, Nox could have easily entered into Hord's stratosphere by the end of Act III. He was forced to his knees IIRC. :/

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Jmanghan
The point of a Kaggath is humiliation.

A Kaggath does indeed have phases. Or death, in which case Hord wanted the later. And it doesn't dear, Tormen literally decapitated his opponent in the first five seconds, maybe just pack it in already.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Or death, in which case Hord wanted the later. And it doesn't dear, Tormen literally decapitated his opponent in the first five seconds, maybe just pack it in already. A duel, and a dejarik match.

This isn't coming from me, I don't have the sources, it comes from Ant, who probably does have the sources.

He listed a duel, and a dejarik match, and something else.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Jmanghan
A duel, and a dejarik match.

This isn't coming from me, I don't have the sources, it comes from Ant, who probably does have the sources.

He listed a duel, and a dejarik match, and something else. Uhuh it's described as "one-part duel, one part large scale dejarik match" in a codex entry, but that's just a neat one-liner to give a flavour of what its like, a battle that (often) involves both lightsaber duelling and grand-scale manoeuvring, but in reality:
There are no phases, as demonstrated by Tormen who engaged in neither duel nor "dejarik match."

Regardless, I think the others are right in assuming that this was not Kallig, as this is all the SWTORE has to say about his death:

http://i.imgur.com/xa3b3V0.jpg

No mention of a Kaggath, just an ambush and assassination. Also if Kallig had been stripped from history and his legacy obliterated, he would never have received a burial. Nor would his name be in any historical record.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Uhuh it's described as "one-part duel, one part large scale dejarik match" in a codex entry, but that's just a neat one-liner to give a flavour of what its like, a battle that (often) involves both lightsaber duelling and grand-scale manoeuvring, but in reality:
There are no phases, as demonstrated by Tormen who engaged in neither duel nor "dejarik match."

Regardless, I think the others are right in assuming that this was not Kallig, as this is all the SWTORE has to say about his death:

http://i.imgur.com/xa3b3V0.jpg

No mention of a Kaggath, just an ambush and assassination. Also if Kallig had been stripped from history and his legacy obliterated, he would never have received a burial. Nor would his name be in any historical record. Ok, so they never actually fought...

Wtf.

Nephthys
You need to stop getting your info from Ant, lol.

Beniboybling
thumb up

UCanShootMyNova
thumb up

Ursumeles
thumb up

paullx
Team 1

Petrus
Saying Nox tanking the huge lightning storm Thanaton summoned isn't very impressive is outright ridiculous, lol.

<< THERE IS MORE FROM THIS THREAD HERE >>