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1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All-Out

https://media4.giphy.com/media/NOSeorNM5lHZC/200.gif#6

Also Krayt in all, lmao.

Hord > Muur > Krayt > Spirit!Muur > Vong!Krayt.

Hord dies, Khem Val cries.

Originally posted by MythLord
Hord dies, Khem Val cries.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Hord > Muur > Krayt > Spirit!Muur > Vong!Krayt.
Krayt > Muur > Spirit!Muur > Vong! Krayt > Hord

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Krayt > Muur = Spirit!Muur > Vong! Krayt > Hord Fixed.

Krayt wins based on feats (and scaling from Abeloth).
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Krayt > Hord > Muur = Spirit!Muur > Vong!Krayt Fixed.

What is the basis for Spirit Muur = Muur?

He had the Muur Talisman to preserve and sustain his essence.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He had the Muur Talisman to preserve and sustain his essence. That doesn't exactly make them equals...

Considering it eliminates what would make him weaker, it kinda does.

Doesn't the Jedi Academy Training Manual state that it isn't the power that Sith Spirits lose that makes them "weaker", rather they are limited to what powers they can use? And doesn't it also note that if they have a physical conduit(like possessing a person like Celeste, or channeling their power through the talisman) they can make up for that single limitation?

I wouldn't know, other sources suggest otherwise though.

Quotes, plz.

Well every time Valkorion was "killed" it weakened him, for example. Kun and Nihilus are also described needing to gather energy to sustain themselves.

Originally posted by MythLord
Doesn't the Jedi Academy Training Manual state that it isn't the power that Sith Spirits lose that makes them "weaker", rather they are limited to what powers they can use? And doesn't it also note that if they have a physical conduit(like possessing a person like Celeste, or channeling their power through the talisman) they can make up for that single limitation? Yeah, lets just assume Ragnos, at Full Power, lost to Jaden Korr.

Originally posted by Azronger
What is the basis for Spirit Muur = Muur? The same basis for Kun = Spirit!Kun.

Minus the part where he got zapped by a Wall of Light, yeah.

Originally posted by Geistalt
The same basis for Kun = Spirit!Kun.

So there is none.

Originally posted by Azronger
So there is none. Lol darling I'm over here.

I fail to see how the talisman would be the equivalent of a fresh body in terms of spirit preservance capabilities. Didn't Muur wish to take Celeste's (and later Cade's and Krayt's) body precisely for that reason? Or am I just remembering it wrong?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol darling I'm over here.

What's your basis for Kun = Spirit Kun, then?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He had the Muur Talisman to preserve and sustain his essence.

Originally posted by Azronger
I fail to see how the talisman would be the equivalent of a fresh body in terms of spirit preservance capabilities. Didn't Muur wish to take Celeste's (and later Cade's and Krayt's) body precisely for that reason? Or am I just remembering it wrong? It would provide him with a vessel to inhabit upon death, and also a connection to the Force as Sith talismans are built with living Force crystals. I assume that given it was designed to house his spirit and in that way make him immortal it would make a good substitute.

However naturally he need a living host to channel his powers through, which is presumably why he sought out powerful conduits.

Originally posted by Beniboybling


And Kun had an entire planet rich with dark side energy. Doesn't mean he was as powerful as his living self, as sources have noted.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It would provide him with a vessel to inhabit upon death, and also a connection to the Force as Sith talismans are built with living Force crystals. I assume that given it was designed to house his spirit and in that way make him immortal it would make a good substitute.

However naturally he need a living host to channel his powers through, which is presumably why he sought out powerful conduits.

You just conceded that a living body is better than a talisman for channeling his powers. So Muur > Spirit Muur, no?

Originally posted by Azronger
And Kun had an entire planet rich with dark side energy. Doesn't mean he was as powerful as his living self, as sources have noted.Which diminished greatly over the course of 4,000 years, and which he was trapped on after being almost entirely stripped of his power by a Wall of Light conjured by the entire Jedi Order.

Frankly its impressive that he still existed at all.

In terms of his ability to channel his powers yes, not in terms of the power he possessed.

Yup. Jedi Academy Training Manual says that Sith Spirits are only weakened in a sense that their powers cannot affect the physical plane, but that can be circumvented if they have a conduit(ala Kun/Kyp, Celeste/Muur, Vitiate/his voices).

In other words, if their powers have a type of physical channel, any hinderence of being a spirit is basically removed(besides the lack of a physical body). Not only that but they can logically draw on the power of their hosts, as well.

Quote plz.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Hord > Muur > Krayt > Spirit!Muur > Vong!Krayt.

What's the base for Muur > Krayt?

Wishful thinking.

Living!Muur >> Spirit!Muur

Reborn!Krayt >> Vong!Krayt

Spirit!Muur > Vong!Krayt

Living!Muur > Reborn!Krayt

Is what I assume.

@Zoltan I though you would say "Mental retardation", tbh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Living!Muur >> Spirit!Muur
Is what I assume.
Based on what?

Everything we know about spirits and how they work?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Living!Muur >> Spirit!Muur

Reborn!Krayt >> Vong!Krayt

Spirit!Muur > Vong!Krayt

Living!Muur > Reborn!Krayt

Is what I assume. Kek your own logic doesn't even function.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Living!Muur >> Spirit!Muur

Reborn!Krayt >> Vong!Krayt

Spirit!Muur > Vong!Krayt

Living!Muur > Reborn!Krayt

Is what I assume.

http://i.imgur.com/iOTVv7Q.gif

I didn't say I agreed, I was answering Urs' question.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Everything we know about spirits and how they work? Muur's spirit =/= other Sith Spirits

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Which diminished greatly over the course of 4,000 years, and which he was trapped on after being almost entirely stripped of his power by a Wall of Light conjured by the entire Jedi Order.

Quote? TOR Codex claims it only incresed in magnitude as time passed on:

For well over a thousand years now, the dark side of the Force has flowed through Yavin 4 in an ever-increasing magnitude.

-Yavin IV Codex entry

And wasn't the Wall of Light used to shield the planet to prevent Kun from escaping? I've never heard of them using it to sever Kun's Force connection.



True.



That's basically another way to say living Muur is stronger than Spirit Muur.

Originally posted by MythLord
Yup. Jedi Academy Training Manual says that Sith Spirits are only weakened in a sense that their powers cannot affect the physical plane, but that can be circumvented if they have a conduit(ala Kun/Kyp, Celeste/Muur, Vitiate/his voices).

In other words, if their powers have a type of physical channel, any hinderence of being a spirit is basically removed(besides the lack of a physical body). Not only that but they can logically draw on the power of their hosts, as well.

That is, again, just another way of saying living beings are stronger than spirits. We're debating semantics here.

Still, a quote would be appreciated.

Originally posted by Azronger
Quote? TOR Codex claims it only incresed in magnitude as time passed on:

For well over a thousand years now, the dark side of the Force has flowed through Yavin 4 in an ever-increasing magnitude.

-Yavin IV Codex entry

And wasn't the Wall of Light used to shield the planet to prevent Kun from escaping? I've never heard of them using it to sever Kun's Force connection.The fact that Luke didn't have any issues building a Jedi academy there for one, it would hardly be wise to do so on a planet saturated in the dark side.

And the WoL was described as a "crushing blow" designed to "extinguish the corrupted power of the Sith", or rather to eradicate, and though Kun survived he was left trapped inside his own temple, and unable to even perceive his surroundings, or reach out to Ulic:

http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111179633/4579328-3379636247-45744.jpg
http://static9.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4579329-5565243555-45744.jpg

So we can only assume his power had been seriously depleted.

No the distinction is important, because most of Muur's hype is based not on his feats, but on the fact he's made out to possess more power than 19 BBY Vader & Vong Krayt.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The fact that Luke didn't have any issues building a Jedi academy there for one, it would hardly be wise to do so on a planet saturated in the dark side.

A lot of thigs in SW don't make sense. That's not a valid reason to dismiss the quote.



Fair enough.



I don't get what that has to do with it. What difference does it make if Muur is stated to possess less power as a spirit than when alive, or if he's stated to have the exact same amount of power as a spirit and as a living being but he can use only a limited amount of that power as a spirit? Both of them are just different ways of saying spirit Muur is weaker than living Muur. Their power levels don't change relative to Vader or Krayt.

Originally posted by Azronger
A lot of thigs in SW don't make sense. That's not a valid reason to dismiss the quote.The quote doesn't prove anything beyond the events of TOR, but rather the 1400 year period before TOR where Sadow, Nadd and Kun all added to the power of the moon in their own way. Post TOR nothing of significance occurs that would deepen its power, so logically it would go the way of Korriban and other Sith worlds and diminish instead. The fact that Luke was comfortable starting a Jedi academy there indicating as much.

Because Vader by sensing the power of Muur directly (not by observing what power he could use through Morne) believed he might replace Palpatine as his master if he claimed the talisman, and its stated that Muur possessed more power than Krayt, exclusive of Morne.

Obviously if Muur possesses the same about of power in life as he did in death, the above would remain static.

Or in other words: Krayt > Muur = Spirit!Muur > Vong! Krayt > Hord.

Originally posted by MythLord
Hord dies, Khem Val cries.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Muur > Hord.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBPqksG9nbA

Originally posted by MythLord
Hord dies, Ant cries.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He had the Muur Talisman to preserve and sustain his essence.

Lies.

Muur's will and mind was preserved by the Muur Talisman, which acted just like the Temples for Kun or the Tombs for Nadd.

I'd ask for a source that Muur retained his power, but I know you don't have one.

I do have these on the other hand:





Muur was never as powerful as he was in his prime, supported by the fact that he states Celeste Morne isn't worthy of the Talisman and he needed more powerful Force users than her to set himself free.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lies.https://media1.giphy.com/media/HJTBvT7cTQqFq/200.gif#0



Maybe stop wasting my time by asking after the blinding obvious? Lmao.

Not sure why you brought up Nadd or Kun either, seeing as the aforementioned tombs and temples too preserved what was left of their strength, but besides that their circumstances were quite different.

Quite, he thought Morne was not worthy of wielding his power, so sought out more fitting conduits, and the fact he needed immense strength to forge himself a new body is hardly surprising, something you continually fail to grasp.

Try coming back to me when you've more than half-baked ideas and quote spam to support your claims.

@Beni - Even provided that the Talisman contains the same amount of power as Muur did in life, that doesn't mean Talisman! Muur = living Muur. We're forgetting that his feats in Celeste's body entail being in a vessel of limited ability to channel the Force (which you said before), and the fact that Celeste would've surely been mentally contesting with Muur for control over her own body, which would hinder his powers to an extent.

Regardless, Krayt beats ol' Hord. People seem to be treating Hord > all of the Ancients bar Ragnos & Nadd as a fact, and I'm still not seeing how. The Endar Spire feat, assuming there's no exaggeration, isn't even all that amazing, lol. Not to mention that Hord's Tomb seems to be the weakest nexus of the Ancient Sith.

I acknowledge that, but as I explained to Azronger the distinction is still relevant.

And it's because of Ant's new shit-tier theory regarding the Ancients lol.

Right. So Reborn Krayt really shouldn't be that far beyond Muur at all. And if we take Kun > Ragnos > Pall > Muur scaling, there's a good chance that Kun's more powerful. But I'll leave AP to make that argument

Which theory?

Or he might be, there is nothing concrete regarding how much stronger Krayt got and how stronger than Krayt Muur was.

EDIT: And this one, http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t637633.html

Well, it's down to "mights" at this point. With nothing definitive either way, it's up to us to make our own personal judgments on the matter.

And if Cade lasted as well against him as Zoltan says, then I'm thinking there wasn't a colossal gap.

As for how much of a difference there was between Muur and Krayt, Muur seemed to be on the winning end against both Krayt and Maladi, even in Celeste's body.

The panels don't really suggest that tbh. And Morne wasn't tapping into Muur's power when she achieved that, I don't believe.

When she achieved what? I'm talking about when Muur took over Morne's body.

http://static9.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111178634/4633306-celeste+morne+tutaminis.jpg

Originally posted by SunRazer
Muur seemed to be on the winning end against both Krayt and Maladi, even in Celeste's body.

No he wasn't lmao. Krayt and Maladi's lightning forced them on their knees and then Krayt alone overpowered them in a blade lock.

Wasn't referring to either of the examples that you brought up. Muur wasn't even in control of Celeste's body in either of those examples, lmfao.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Wasn't referring to either of the examples that you brought up. Muur wasn't even in control of Celeste's body in either of those examples, lmfao.

Then you are illiterate because you said against both Krayt and Maladi, which only happened once

Maladi fights Muur off-panel as well, lol.

Fanfic.

Sounds like it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The quote doesn't prove anything beyond the events of TOR, but rather the 1400 year period before TOR where Sadow, Nadd and Kun all added to the power of the moon in their own way. Post TOR nothing of significance occurs that would deepen its power, so logically it would go the way of Korriban and other Sith worlds and diminish instead. The fact that Luke was comfortable starting a Jedi academy there indicating as much.

TOR takes place over 300 years after TotJ. That's a significant span of time. If nothing happened there for that long and it still continually grew in potency, I don't see why it would suddenly stop or start decreasing for no reason.



Ah, now I get it. Thanks for the explanation.

I'd still like to hear a reason for why you think Reborn Krayt > Muur, though. Muur was confirmed stronger than Vong Krayt, but the gap was not quantified. Why do you think the gap between Reborn Krayt and Vong Krayt is greater than the gap between Muur and Vong Krayt?

Apparently I have to explain to Beni that the Talisman itself is powerful, which doesn't remotely equate to Muur's own power.

It's like describing color to a blind man.

So it was the Muur Talisman, not Muur himself, that was more powerful than both Krayt, Vader etc.? Lmao. How absurd. Why on earth should we assume that, rather than the most obvious answer that it was instead the power of Muur's spirit?

Originally posted by Azronger
TOR takes place over 300 years after TotJ. That's a significant span of time. If nothing happened there for that long and it still continually grew in potency, I don't see why it would suddenly stop or start decreasing for no reason.True, frankly though it doesn't make a great deal of sense given that at one point the power would have been diminished by the Jedi cleansing, nor is there any reason to believe it would be an exception to worlds like Korriban.

Well I guess its just a matter of personal opinion tbh, as it stands Muur only has accolades that put him above Vong Krayt, so we either assume he's beneath Reborn Krayt or concede we don't know. Either way its something of a dead-end in terms of power-scaling.

Originally posted by Beniboybling


So it was the Muur Talisman, not Muur himself, that was more powerful than both Krayt, Vader etc.? Lmao. How absurd. Why on earth should we assume that, rather than the most obvious answer that it was instead the power of Muur's spirit?
Nah, that just means that the Muur! Talisman > Vong Krayt. So it's possible that Muur himself is Sub-Maladi

Originally posted by Beniboybling
True, frankly though it doesn't make a great deal of sense given that at one point the power would have been diminished by the Jedi cleansing, nor is there any reason to believe it would be an exception to worlds like Korriban.

It doesn't make any sense at all (like most of TOR), but I'm not about to ignore it just because of that.



Reborn Krayt also has primarely accolades that put him above Vong Krayt, but I agree, it's a dead end. Which is why we should just hold them as equals in power and look at their Force mastery, instead, imo.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Nah, that just means that the Muur! Talisman > Vong Krayt. So it's possible that Muur himself is Sub-Maladi

Tbh, that's not an unreasonable claim, given that Sith artefacts have "overpowered" their masters before; the Sword of Ajunta Pall and the Darkstaff are two examples of this.

But I agree with Beni: no reason to assume that unless proof is presented.

@Azronger - That's just a legend in KotOR II. Ajunta's spirit in KotOR seems to reminisce of being destroyed in battle by the other Sith. The Sword possibly fueled their thirst for power or something like that - I don't think it literally destroyed them.

The Darkstaff didn't destroy Rivan. Rivan just exhausted himself using the Darkstaff's power, which allowed him to be easily slain on the battlefield.

Originally posted by Azronger
TOR takes place over 300 years after TotJ. That's a significant span of time. If nothing happened there for that long and it still continually grew in potency, I don't see why it would suddenly stop or start decreasing for no reason.



Ah, now I get it. Thanks for the explanation.

I'd still like to hear a reason for why you think Reborn Krayt > Muur, though. Muur was confirmed stronger than Vong Krayt, but the gap was not quantified. Why do you think the gap between Reborn Krayt and Vong Krayt is greater than the gap between Muur and Vong Krayt?
Well for one thing Krayt was literally at death's door at the time his duel with Muur happened. A few chapters earlier Wyyrok traveled to the Deep Core to find some lore that would aid Krayt because they were growing increasingly desperate about his health.

For another, Reborn Krayt himself states that he returned with his power "multiplied", and he also had a few new tricks up his sleeve, like the Shatterpoint ability, a mastery of the Dark Transfer that even a prodigy/Skywalker couldn't come close to matching, and the Transfer Essence.

And also Krayt as of ~40ABY, at the time he and Luke fought Abeloth together, was far stronger than Vong Krayt.

So it stands to reason that Krayt was at his strongest(during his natural life) as of FOTJ:Apocalypse, then decreased dramatically in power as old age and the Vong parasites did a number on him, and he reached the peak of his power after his rebirth.

That's a good point. mmm

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Azronger - That's just a legend in KotOR II. Ajunta's spirit in KotOR seems to reminisce of being destroyed in battle by the other Sith. The Sword possibly fueled their thirst for power or something like that - I don't think it literally destroyed them.

The Darkstaff didn't destroy Rivan. Rivan just exhausted himself using the Darkstaff's power, which allowed him to be easily slain on the battlefield.

"Destroy" in this context could be interpreted in a lot of ways, but the way Ajunta speaks about it definitely implies it had a corrupting influence on him, meaning it may have been too powerful for him.

No, but Rivan mused it would:

"I could not wield it. I would not. It would not make me more powerful; it would destroy me. And so, I want it gone, erased from the galaxy. Nothing that has the power to destroy me should be allowed to continue to exist, no matter how sweet the promises it makes, no matter how dark the night would be if I held it. It must be destroyed."

Rivan also theorized it destroyed its creator.

Krayt effortlessly stomps

Originally posted by Unbowed
Well for one thing Krayt was literally at death's door at the time his duel with Muur happened. A few chapters earlier Wyyrok traveled to the Deep Core to find some lore that would aid Krayt because they were growing increasingly desperate about his health.

For another, Reborn Krayt himself states that he returned with his power "multiplied", and he also had a few new tricks up his sleeve, like the Shatterpoint ability, a mastery of the Dark Transfer that even a prodigy/Skywalker couldn't come close to matching, and the Transfer Essence.

And also Krayt as of ~40ABY, at the time he and Luke fought Abeloth together, was far stronger than Vong Krayt.

So it stands to reason that Krayt was at his strongest(during his natural life) as of FOTJ:Apocalypse, then decreased dramatically in power as old age and the Vong parasites did a number on him, and he reached the peak of his power after his rebirth. Muur healed him, IIRC.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Well for one thing Krayt was literally at death's door at the time his duel with Muur happened. A few chapters earlier Wyyrok traveled to the Deep Core to find some lore that would aid Krayt because they were growing increasingly desperate about his health.

No, Muur healed him before the fight:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4653430-muurhealskrayt.jpg



Even a 10% increase would count as "multiplied". This is not proof he is stronger than Muur.

Muur also possesses Dark Transfer, but Shatterpoint could be an advantage. I don't think he knows Essence Transfer, though.



Based on what was he "far" stronger?



I agree. Not sure how this is supposed to put him beyond Muur, though.

Where is it stated it healed him completely?

I didn't say he healed him completely. Obviously it didn't since he still had the Ving spores in him. It was simply a proof that Krayt was not "at death's door" like Unbowed claimed.

Fair, but the point still stands.

Um, no it doesn't.

Um does too.

He said Krayt was at death's door. I disproved the claim. So the point doesn't stand.

The point is that Muur was only more powerful than a significantly weakened Krayt, which stands whether Muur brought him back from the brink or not.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The point is that Muur was only more powerful than a significantly weakened Krayt, which stands whether Muur brought him back from the brink or not.

Weakened in comparison to his Vong or Reborn iteration? If it's the former, no, there's no proof Krayt was any more "weakened" than he would normally be with his condition, after Muur had healed him. If it's the latter, I agree, but Muur wasn't at his best, either.

Well that's what I was asking before, where is the proof that Muur restored him to his previous strength? There is a difference between that and mitigating his weakness somewhat.

EDIT: Looking over the scene Muur only offers to begin the process for him to prove his abilities, but mere moments into the healing it's interrupted by the Jedi.

Or in other words, I honestly doubt it really had much of an effect at all.

I might be wrong but didn't Krayt or somebody comment on Krayt being in far better condition after the fact?

Not in what I read.

Krayt beats him every time by a fairly solid margin.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well that's what I was asking before, where is the proof that Muur restored him to his previous strength? There is a difference between that and mitigating his weakness somewhat.

EDIT: Looking over the scene Muur only offers to begin the process for him to prove his abilities, but mere moments into the healing it's interrupted by the Jedi.

Or in other words, I honestly doubt it really had much of an effect at all.
It had probably no effect. In Legacy:War Krayt mentions that that "Muur's words opened my eyes far more than he intended".

Krayt got all excited when Muur began his healing because he finally understood how to use it for himself, but it seems silly to think that a 190 year old man who suffered from the Vong corruption for a century would be suddenly "healed" after a few seconds.

I stand behind my statement. Seeing as Krayt's previous little tussle with Cade and being shot in the back sent him right into a stasis and Wyyrlok in full blown panic mode, I doubt Krayt would have survived that fight even if he did beat Muur.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well that's what I was asking before, where is the proof that Muur restored him to his previous strength? There is a difference between that and mitigating his weakness somewhat.

EDIT: Looking over the scene Muur only offers to begin the process for him to prove his abilities, but mere moments into the healing it's interrupted by the Jedi.

Or in other words, I honestly doubt it really had much of an effect at all.

Well, it obviously had some significant effect given that Krayt commented on it working.

Other than that, fair enough.