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TOTJ Kun

Force sabers all out

Team 2 stomps.

Hell; either of them could stomp him individually (in all rounds, except for Vader in Force; that's the only round where Exar Kun actually stands a chance).

Vader stomps, Krayt stomps if this is prime Krayt since prime Krayt.

Krayt solos.

Krayt.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Krayt. https://img.fireden.net/vg/image/1434/84/1434848994182.jpg

Felt the same way when I saw you using Gillard rankings in a debate as if it constituted evidence.

Team, obviously.

Vader would give Kun a hell of a fight, adding in a guy who can solo Kun turns this into spite real quick.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Felt the same way when I saw you using Gillard rankings in a debate as if it constituted evidence.
Re-read the title.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Felt the same way when I saw you using Gillard rankings in a debate as if it constituted evidence.

Syn trying to throw shades when he blatantly uses arbitrary canon policies that are literally made up by him.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Krayt. Lawls.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Felt the same way when I saw you using Gillard rankings in a debate as if it constituted evidence.

50/50.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Team 2 stomps.

Hell; either of them could stomp him individually (in all rounds, except for Vader in Force; that's the only round where Exar Kun actually stands a chance).

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Re-read the title.

What?

This is disgusting, team 2 wins in a very hard fight, and the idea that Krayt is even on Kun's level, let alone coming close to beating him, is just cancer.

Even if you argue Prime Krayt > Muur, there's no way that gap is anywhere near large enough to eclipse the fact that: Exar Kun >> Freedon Nadd > Marka Ragnos > Tulak Hord > Ajunta Pall > Karness Muur

Krayt solos.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Krayt solos.

Originally posted by AncientPower
This is disgusting, team 2 wins in a very hard fight, and the idea that Krayt is even on Kun's level, let alone coming close to beating him, is just cancer.

Even if you argue Prime Krayt > Muur, there's no way that gap is anywhere near large enough to eclipse the fact that: Exar Kun >> Freedon Nadd > Marka Ragnos > Tulak Hord > Ajunta Pall > Karness Muur

Ajunta Pall is not confirmed to be greater then Muur.

Neither is Tulak Hord.

Ragnos MAY be though the quotes are ambiguous and can be seen as of his time or ever though he has no "of all time" or "up to his time" quote.

Freedon Nadd is not confirmed to be above Ragnos.

Your scaling is flawed.

Originally posted by AncientPower
This is disgusting, team 2 wins in a very hard fight, and the idea that Krayt is even on Kun's level, let alone coming close to beating him, is just cancer.



https://media.tenor.co/images/808d871fbf7e5720169a33b808b5c3e0/raw




Wait, you're serious...


https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-17-2015/I5oQs3.gif

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Ajunta Pall is not confirmed to be greater then Muur.

Neither is Tulak Hord.

Ragnos MAY be though the quotes are ambiguous and can be seen as of his time or ever though he has no "of all time" or "up to his time" quote.

Freedon Nadd is not confirmed to be above Ragnos.

Your scaling is flawed.

Karness Muur was one of Ajunta Pall's Shadow Hands:



Tulak Hord is stated to be amongst the greatest Dark Lords of the Sith ever, which would include the aforementioned Ajunta Pall, whom as stated previously, was Muur's master and confirmed superior:



Marka Ragnos is confirmed to be the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith up until his time:



Freedon Nadd is stated to become the greatest Sith sorceror who ever existed:



Which obviously includes Marka Ragnos. Whilst it is not a direct statement of superior power, sorcery is considered in-universe to be the greatest source of power. It is fairly cut and dry.

Exar Kun became even more powerful than Nadd, before he was in his prime.

Tulak Hord being one of the greatest evah hardly places him in the same league as Ajunta Pall, lmao. Hord has nothing to his name that suggests he'd beat even Remulus, let alone Muur, and let alone Pall.

The Marka and Nadd accolades have already been debunked. Exar Kun sucks at life; Krayt solos, Kun dies, AP cries.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Karness Muur was one of Ajunta Pall's Shadow Hands:



Tulak Hord is stated to be amongst the greatest Dark Lords of the Sith ever, which would include the aforementioned Ajunta Pall, whom as stated previously, was Muur's master and confirmed superior:



Marka Ragnos is confirmed to be the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith up until his time:



Freedon Nadd is stated to become the greatest Sith sorceror who ever existed:



Which obviously includes Marka Ragnos. Whilst it is not a direct statement of superior power, sorcery is considered in-universe to be the greatest source of power. It is fairly cut and dry.

Exar Kun became even more powerful than Nadd, before he was in his prime.

I'm aware. That's doesn't mean the gap between them remained the same in the ensuing years and in fact the opposite is suggested given Pall couldn't retain leadership over the other Exiles.

That doesn't place him above Muur or Pall. Koon was one of the most powerful Jedi ever and most named characters are within the 99th percentile.

It doesn't say to ever live. It says the greatest dark lord of the Sith. He was the greatest dark lord of the Sith in his time.

And? Zannah was a better Sith Sorcerer then Bane as of Rule of Two. He could still snap her neck with no resistance.

Again, Hord has nothing placing him above any of the other Ancient Sith in terms of power. Nothing. Nil. Zero. Zilch.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Again, Hord has nothing placing him above any of the other Ancient Sith in terms of power. Nothing. Nil. Zero. Zilch.
Nichts.

Originally posted by AncientPower
This is disgusting, team 2 wins in a very hard fight, and the idea that Krayt is even on Kun's level, let alone coming close to beating him, is just cancer.

Even if you argue Prime Krayt > Muur, there's no way that gap is anywhere near large enough to eclipse the fact that: Exar Kun >> Freedon Nadd > Marka Ragnos > Tulak Hord > Ajunta Pall > Karness Muur http://i.imgur.com/tHHCze4.gif

Tbh, Kun could be argued beating this team with his "darkest power in the galaxy" accolade.

At a time where only so little planets were DS nexuses and none of them were that overwhelming, and "darkest" can mean so many things... no.

Originally posted by MythLord
At a time where only so little planets were DS nexuses and none of them were that overwhelming, and "darkest" can mean so many things... no.

What would you interpret it as, if not power?

Darkest power =/= greatest power, tbh.
Anyways, it's not like the accolade isn't generic as is. Put Krayt or Vader, or even Bane, in the same situation and they'd be "the darkest power" if they replaced Exar Kun.

Originally posted by AncientPower
This is disgusting, team 2 wins in a very hard fight, and the idea that Krayt is even on Kun's level, let alone coming close to beating him, is just cancer.

Even if you argue Prime Krayt > Muur, there's no way that gap is anywhere near large enough to eclipse the fact that: Exar Kun >> Freedon Nadd > Marka Ragnos > Tulak Hord > Ajunta Pall > Karness Muur Those are interchangeable.

Hell, Syn has Muur as the second-strongest.

Originally posted by Azronger
Tbh, Kun could be argued beating this team with his "darkest power in the galaxy" accolade. Why exactly?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Why exactly?

The galaxy at that time included nexus-amped Vitiate, who one-shot Revan. I could see the same happening to Krayt if he were in that situation.

Originally posted by MythLord
Darkest power =/= greatest power, tbh.
Anyways, it's not like the accolade isn't generic as is. Put Krayt or Vader, or even Bane, in the same situation and they'd be "the darkest power" if they replaced Exar Kun.

Well, duh, since "greatest power" can also be a lightsider, whereas "darkest power" cannot.

But I take it you think it means something different than strength in the Force, since I doubt you think Bane, Vader or Krayt are more powerful than nexus-amped Vitiate.

Originally posted by Azronger
The galaxy at that time included nexus-amped Vitiate, who one-shot Revan. I could see the same happening to Krayt if he were in that situation. Arguably that's been retconned though. Though aside from that one most ask the question of whether it includes Vitiate given he did not then exist, certainly its not a standard the TOR phags have ever extended to Sheev.

Originally posted by Azronger
Well, duh, since "greatest power" can also be a lightsider, whereas "darkest power" cannot.

But I take it you think it means something different than strength in the Force, since I doubt you think Bane, Vader or Krayt are more powerful than nexus-amped Vitiate.

There's a good century or so separating the Vitiate that did that and Exar Kun. Besides, Vitiate was outside the galaxy at the time, slowly rebuilding his Empire. So it still shouldn't apply.

Nor could Vitiate one-shot Revan without charging his power, first.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Arguably that's been retconned though. Though aside from that one most ask the question of whether it includes Vitiate given he did not then exist, certainly its not a standard the TOR phags have ever extended to Sheev.

Retconned where?

And I don't agree with that mentality on canon. You can only retcon things actively, not passively.

Originally posted by MythLord
There's a good century or so separating the Vitiate that did that and Exar Kun. Besides, Vitiate was outside the galaxy at the time, slowly rebuilding his Empire. So it still shouldn't apply.

And Exar was pre-prime. Given we cannot quantify the power growths of either character, we should just assume they're equal or leave them out of the equation completely.



Never said he could.

Originally posted by Azronger
And Exar was pre-prime. Given we cannot quantify the power growths of either character, we should just assume they're equal or leave them out of the equation completely.

A few years pre-prime is nothing compared to a few decades. Besides, like I said, Vitiate was outside the known galaxy at the time so it shouldn't apply.

Wouldn't arguing Freedon Nadd is above Ragnos with that quote can also be used to place Nadd above Kun and just above any other Sith lol. I mean he became the greatest Sorcerer ever and IIRC that sourcebook does mention Kun. It isn't like other quotes that simply call a Sith Lord the strongest Dark Lord of the Sith, which we can infer that it means up to their time. This says Nadd was the greatest Sorcerer that had ever existed.

Originally posted by MythLord
A few years pre-prime is nothing compared to a few decades. Besides, like I said, Vitiate was outside the known galaxy at the time so it shouldn't apply.

The Unknown Regions and Dromund Kaas are still part of the galaxy, so it applies

And where is the proof that Vitiate even grew considerably? He didn't get that much stronger in a millenium (considering Revan could contend with him on a DS nexus), whereas Kun eclipsed Karness Muur (and by proxy, Darth Krayt), Ajunta Pall, Marka Ragnos and Freedon Nadd in just a few years. In addition, he gained an additional boost when he got access to the most powerful Sith holocron in the mythos. I'd say his power-growth is far greater than Vitiate's.

Originally posted by Azronger
Retconned where?

And I don't agree with that mentality on canon. You can only retcon things actively, not passively. "The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen."

That's from the SWTOR Codex, but by Revan the Sith Emperor is already a "god-like avatar of the dark side", so it stands to reason that at this point his mastery over the dark side was nigh absolute.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Wouldn't arguing Freedon Nadd is above Ragnos with that quote can also be used to place Nadd above Kun and just above any other Sith lol. I mean he became the greatest Sorcerer ever and IIRC that sourcebook does mention Kun. It isn't like other quotes that simply call a Sith Lord the strongest Dark Lord of the Sith, which we can infer that it means up to their time. This says Nadd was the greatest Sorcerer that had ever existed.

IIRC, those were Nadd's personal thoughts.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
"The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen."

That's from the SWTOR Codex, but by Revan the Sith Emperor is already a "god-like avatar of the dark side", so it stands to reason that at this point his mastery over the dark side was nigh absolute.

Yes, by TOR, he had surpassed Kun. Not as of the novel, though. Can you quantify "god-like avatar of the dark side"? No, but you sure can quantify "darkest power in the galaxy". It doesn't take a genius to figure out which is the superior accolade.

The accolade doesn't say anything that situates it in TOR, only that he achieved it by mastering the dark side's power, which he'd evidently done by the Revan novel if he's being described as a "god-like avatar of the dark side."

Originally posted by Azronger
The Unknown Regions and Dromund Kaas are still part of the galaxy, so it applies

Not really. Dromund Kaas at the time wasn't a part of the galaxy. It only official becomes that once the Republic adds it onto the star maps.

Originally posted by Azronger
And where is the proof that Vitiate even grew considerably? He didn't get that much stronger in a millenium (considering Revan could contend with him on a DS nexus), whereas Kun eclipsed Karness Muur (and by proxy, Darth Krayt), Ajunta Pall, Marka Ragnos and Freedon Nadd in just a few years. In addition, he gained an additional boost when he got access to the most powerful Sith holocron in the mythos. I'd say his power-growth is far greater than Vitiate's.

Vitiate by the age of ten was already taken control of planets and slaughtering fully-pledged Sith Lords. That's a lot of innate talent, that would've ultimately been boosted by the Nathema Ritual. Exar Kun was already an incredibly impressive and powerful Jedi Knight, and he uncovered a vast treasure-drove of knowledge within a very short amount of time, something we know can give a person exceptional powers. He should grow considerably in a few years, but Vitiate has at least similar raw power and now an additional several decades to grow.
Besides, it's stated that Vitiate was becoming an "unfathomable power" whilst in exile on Dromund Kaas. That'd put him ahead of Exar Kun.

Besides, what's this going to prove? It's not like novel!Vitiate is beating Krayt and Vader at the same time, lmao.

Originally posted by MythLord
Not really. Dromund Kaas at the time wasn't a part of the galaxy. It only official becomes that once the Republic adds it onto the star maps.

I believe the quote said "darkest power in the galaxy", not "darkest power in the portion of the galaxy known to the Republic".



Nothing there proves that Vitiate grew more powerful than Kun. It only proves my original point further: they both have comparable raw talent, so they would advance at an equal rate. Kun had additional artifacts to boost his power that Vitiate didn't, and Vitiate had a few extra decades that Kun didn't. Since there's no way to know which would provide a greater boost, we should just leave the power-growth out of the equation completely.



Give me the full quote. That sounds suspiciously hyperbolic.



Of course he isn't. But Kun, who's more powerful and has vastly greater skill in CQC, might. Not saying it would happen, but he has a lot going for him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The accolade doesn't say anything that situates it in TOR, only that he achieved it by mastering the dark side's power, which he'd evidently done by the Revan novel if he's being described as a "god-like avatar of the dark side."

Vitiate had "mastered" the dark side even before the Nathema ritual, if he is described as "supremely strong in the dark side" and succeeded in performing "the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted", yet he wasn't more powerful than Sadow, Kressh, or Kun (who have each also mastered the dark side), so I don't think the quote means what you think it does.

I'd say it means that he has mastered the dark side to the point where he is now ("now" being as of TOR) the most powerful, or that he has mastered the dark side so that he could become the most powerful, as in "I have mastered a certain skill to become the best the world has ever seen at that certain skill." Meaning that he hasn't yet.

Either way you spin it, Kun is still better than novel Vitiate.

Originally posted by Azronger
Vitiate had "mastered" the dark side even before the Nathema ritual, if he is described as "supremely strong in the dark side" and succeeded in performing "the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted", yet he wasn't more powerful than Sadow, Kressh, or Kun (who have each also mastered the dark side), so I don't think the quote means what you think it does.Supremely powerful is bandied around a lot, "god like avatar" is quite different.

Not really interested in how you care to spin it, fact remains that nothing precludes it being the case 300 years ago, and there are plenty of others besides (for example he's referred to as "history's most powerful dark side master" I merely drew attention to that one because it ties it to his mastery.

Kun who was stalemating Ulic Qel Droma is better than Vitiate who was one shotting councils and stomping Revan? Maybe not lol.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Supremely powerful is bandied around a lot, "god like avatar" is quite different.

True, but ultimately both are flowery wording and hyperboles used to describe a very powerful being. And you didn't counter my point about the ritual. Obviously Vitiate had "mastered" the dark side at that point, and would, according to your interpretation of the accolade, now be the strongest darksider in history. Nothing prevents others from surpassing him later on, though.



Except the fact that there's not really much proof for it being the case during the novel. He doesn't have the feats of someone like Nihilus until TOR, and if we go by your interpretation of the quote, he'd already have mastered the dark side before Kun's birth, which means there's nothing preventing the latter from surpassing him. My alternate interpretations also still remain valid until you counter them.

"History's most powerful dark side master" was a description of him during and after the events of TOR provided by in-universe historians, so I don't see how it could be latched onto novel Vitiate.



First, Kun's stalemate of Ulic happened before he grew massively in power and received the accolade. Second, it was a lightsaber duel; nothing to do with Force power.

Originally posted by Azronger
True, but ultimately both are flowery wording and hyperboles used to describe a very powerful being. And you didn't counter my point about the ritual. Obviously Vitiate had "mastered" the dark side at that point, and would, according to your interpretation of the accolade, now be the strongest darksider in history. Nothing prevents others from surpassing him later on, though.The point is that if he's being described as a "god-like avatar of the dark side" he's very much come in to his own power, a god like avatar being rather synonymous with "history's most powerful dark side master" imo. It simply gives very little reason to believe that novel Vitiate was not in the prime of his powers.

Like? In vanilla TOR Vitiate's only real feat is stomping a scrub strike team.

And your alternative explanations are just that, alternatives, they don't preclude the accolade applying to novel Vitiate, which means Kun's superiority is not concrete, just an (unlikely) possibility.

It refers to the past obviously, hence "history's", and these historians are writing from after the events of TOR, since they catalogue all of it and even allude to future expansions.

He didn't grow massively in anything. Ulic underwent a radical transformation though.

Lol, maybe rethink that sentence.

Originally posted by Azronger
I believe the quote said "darkest power in the galaxy", not "darkest power in the portion of the galaxy known to the Republic".

And the galaxy at the time didn't officially have Dromund Kaas as a part of it. It was part of an outer void.

Originally posted by Azronger
Nothing there proves that Vitiate grew more powerful than Kun. It only proves my original point further: they both have comparable raw talent, so they would advance at an equal rate. Kun had additional artifacts to boost his power that Vitiate didn't, and Vitiate had a few extra decades that Kun didn't. Since there's no way to know which would provide a greater boost, we should just leave the power-growth out of the equation completely.

Comparable raw talent doesn't mean they'd advance at an equal rate. Even assuming it did, Exar Kun had artifacts since before he fought Qel-Droma so I doubt they would've kept adding powers to him each day.
Also, Exar Kun was claimed "the darkest power in the galaxy" the same year as the Sith War ended, so that means he was pretty much at his peak power at the time.

So whatever power-growth Kun might've had within the last few weeks, it wouldn't have been enough to match a decades long power-growth.

Originally posted by Azronger
Give me the full quote. That sounds suspiciously hyperbolic.

" The fact that they showed no concern over letting an armed Sith Lord speak to the Emperor face-to-face without any kind of preparation was a testament to the Emperor's unfathomable power.

-- Old Republic: Revan

"The Sith Empire's exile dragged on for centuries. While the millitary, navy, and Sith grew strong, the Emperor amassed unfathomable power."

-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia

Originally posted by Azronger
Of course he isn't. But Kun, who's more powerful and has vastly greater skill in CQC, might. Not saying it would happen, but he has a lot going for him.

Well, you can honestly argue Krayt is more powerful than this version of Vitiate, as well. Exar Kun, not quite. Nor would it matter if he's vastly better in CQC, since so are both Krayt and Vader.
If you wanna compare Krayt and Exar to high tiers, Krayt was meant to be a Dark Side version of Luke against Abeloth, and was considered a great replacement Sith for Darth Caedus. Strikes me as at least in Exar's range.

Krayt still solos.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The point is that if he's being described as a "god-like avatar of the dark side" he's very much come in to his own power, a god like avatar being rather synonymous with "history's most powerful dark side master" imo. It simply gives very little reason to believe that novel Vitiate was not in the prime of his powers.

Yeah, except both of those accolades are from the perspective of historians. Hardly reliable. And it's not like basing someone's power level on an unquantifiable flowery hype isn't dubious in itself.



I obviously meant Ziost.



Yes, they do. I'm going to explain this once more: You claim that the quote implies that because Vitiate has mastered the dark side, he is now the most powerful dark side user there is. You then go on to claim that he has mastered the dark side in the novel, since he's labeled as a "godlike avatar of the dark side", and thus, is superior to Exar Kun. But the flaw in your argument is that he had mastered the dark side long before Exar Kun was born. He may have been the most powerful darksider in history before Exar Kun's birth, but there's nothing precluding the notion of Kun surpassing him later, since "history" in this context only includes beings prior to Vitiate's existence. And Kun seemed to have surpassed him, given that he was labeled "the darkest power in the galaxy", despite Vitiate, who had already mastered the dark side, residing there.

And then there's my other alternative, which also precludes the idea of novel Vitiate being stronger than Kun. The quote claims Vitiate has mastered the dark side to become its most powerful user. Mastery of the dark side would obviously be a prerequisite for being on the top of a big pile of people who all have mastered the dark side themselves, which is why Vitiate mastered it. But the quote says his goal is to become the most powerful dark side user ever, implying he hasn't reached this position yet.



Well, obviously. Doesn't do anything to disprove my point, though.



Based on what? I'd say becoming the most powerful Sith Lord in history is quite the power-growth.



Yeah, it's kinda dumb now that I look at it. But it should be obvious I meant Lightning blasts and Tutaminis.

Originally posted by MythLord
And the galaxy at the time didn't officially have Dromund Kaas as a part of it. It was part of an outer void.

I just disproved this point. Nowhere is it stated that the quote was only referring to the portion of the galaxy the Republic was familiar with. You made that up.



All of this is completely baseless speculation. I'll repeat myself again here: We don't know whether the holocron gave a greater boost than a few decades of dark side study, so we should just leave it out of the equation.



Oh, I've no doubt his power was unfathomable... for Scourge and a couple of historians.



I'm not here to make the argument that Kun wins this. I'm just here to say that this isn't nearly as one-sided as people think, and posted the accolade. I'm mainly arguing the accolade's validity, not Kun's superiority to this duo.

Originally posted by Azronger
Yeah, except both of those accolades are from the perspective of historians. Hardly reliable. And it's not like basing someone's power level on an unquantifiable flowery hype isn't dubious in itself.We're given no reason to doubt the material.

And obviously it's hyperbole, but it still reflects him being in the prime of his power.

Which happen post vanilla TOR, by which Vitiate had already been established as above the likes of Nihilus and Kun, so what's your point?

Uh-huh you're not getting it, the point is that there is nothing that makes these readings necessary, sure they are workable, but they are just your opinions. The quote(s) could just as easily be read as referring to novel Vitiate and onwards, or even before that. It isn't anywhere specified at which point Vitiate became the most powerful Force user ever, only that he was by TOR.

Uh-huh it means we've no reason to believe they are describing him as of TOR, and only TOR.

Only if we assume it puts him above novel Vitiate kek. In which case its exactly what it disproves, given that Kun did little to nothing to radically progress himself between the time of matching Ulic and claiming the holocron.

Which doesn't change the fact that he matched his Force augmentation.

More to the point its said that the fight would have gone on for hours, and resulted in both their deaths, that wouldn't be the case is overpowering Ulic with the Force was an option.

'Did little to nothing', except the part where numerous sources state he gained tremendous dark side powers before he resurfaced on Ossus.

Oh and Kun is canonically Ulic's far superior and per Nadd would become even greater than Ulic would.

Originally posted by Azronger
I just disproved this point. Nowhere is it stated that the quote was only referring to the portion of the galaxy the Republic was familiar with. You made that up.

I'll drop this point.

Originally posted by Azronger
All of this is completely baseless speculation. I'll repeat myself again here: We don't know whether the holocron gave a greater boost than a few decades of dark side study, so we should just leave it out of the equation.

Logically, it shouldn't. Dooku had been given the same holocron, yet he certainly didn't grow "vastly" from it, given his standing in the order as second to Mace/Yoda. He'd be within Yoda's tier of power by AotC if just a few weeks of Exar Kun using it rivals a decades long growth of someone with the innate talent to kill Sith Lords in his teenage years.

Originally posted by Azronger
Oh, I've no doubt his power was unfathomable... for Scourge and a couple of historians.

Those same historians being familiar with Marka Ragnos, Freedon Nadd and Exar Kun? It definitely has validity.

Originally posted by Azronger
I'm not here to make the argument that Kun wins this. I'm just here to say that this isn't nearly as one-sided as people think, and posted the accolade. I'm mainly arguing the accolade's validity, not Kun's superiority to this duo.

It is one-sided since just Krayt himself is more than a match for Exar. The accolade is nice, but certainly means very little against Vader or Krayt. But fair enough.

Dooku using it was retconned, that's been a fact since the Essential Guide to the Force.

Really? If anything, it seems to back up the fact that Dooku stole the Dark Holocron from the archives of the Jedi Order. Quote, plz.

It is made clear that they are not the same holocrons, Kun destroyed the one he used and unleashed Sith spirits which possessed the Jedi prodigies on Ossus. The one stolen by Dooku is quite likely to be one of the many forgeries that Sidious pointed out were in the Jedi Archives.

Furthermore, it is said that Exar Kun wouldn't have rose to power as quickly as he had without the Dark Holocron. The fact is that Exar Kun goes from stalemating Ulic Qel-Droma to being stated to be 'far more powerful' than him or any other Jedi in his prime over five years later.

The "far more powerful than any Jedi" accolade doesn't really refer to Ulic after he's left the Jedi and joined with Aleema, which is when him and Kun fought. Furthermore, sources suggest that Ulic is the only one in the galaxy with the power to challenge Kun. After their stalemate, both were noted to rise in power, and Ulic spent much of his time in combat. Kun is more powerful, but it's not by as huge a margin as you're suggesting.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
We're given no reason to doubt the material.

Except the very fact that it's from the perspective of historians is a reason in itself to doubt it. Kun doesn't have any feats that would put him above Vitiate in power, yet according to omniscient sources he became the strongest Sith Lord up to that time and the most powerful darksider in the galaxy. Could the historians know that, if he never displayed any of his powers on a massive scale like Vitiate? Of course not, so I don't see how their word can be viewed as an accurate.



Again, a description of him provided by historians. If Kun had ever unleashed all of his powers to their fullest, do you know whether they would have labeled him "godlike" or not? Well, there's no way to know, since he never did, and we're left with the opinions of historians who are ignorant of all the details in galactic history.



I never said I was referring solely to vanilla TOR. I can blatantly see that Vitiate has surpassed Kun by looking at his Ziost feat.



Indeed. So why would you assume it is referring to novel Vitiate? Is it because of the "almost godlike" accolade?



I don't think you understood my point. What I meant was that the historians observing him are looking at him as he appears as of TOR, and as such, the accolade can only be applied to him as of TOR.



Well, I guess this is just a good feat for Ulic, then.

Originally posted by MythLord
Logically, it shouldn't. Dooku had been given the same holocron, yet he certainly didn't grow "vastly" from it, given his standing in the order as second to Mace/Yoda. He'd be within Yoda's tier of power by AotC if just a few weeks of Exar Kun using it rivals a decades long growth of someone with the innate talent to kill Sith Lords in his teenage years.

AP just disproved this, but I'll address ot anyway: What is any of this based on? Based on what did he not grow vastly? Because he was still behind Yoda and Mace? Based on what was the gap so small that a "vast" growth couldn't have occurred? Based on what would he be in Yoda's tier? Based on what was the gap between Dooku and Yoda the same as between Exar and Vitiate?



Familar with the Sith Lords themselves, yes, but with their accomplishments, no. How could they be, when some never even exerted themselves to their fullest?

Az I only went along with this historians bunk for the sake of convenience, its never actually stated who the book is written by only that it's in universe (all DK Books are, including the Visual Dictionaries and the Ultimate Guide) but they could well be omniscient as they are in TCSWE. More to the point they are privy to information about the Emperor that no one else knows. Or in other words, you're basing this idea that they are unreliable on fabricated contexts, so I'd try a different excuse tbh.

Originally posted by AncientPower
It is made clear that they are not the same holocrons, Kun destroyed the one he used and unleashed Sith spirits which possessed the Jedi prodigies on Ossus. The one stolen by Dooku is quite likely to be one of the many forgeries that Sidious pointed out were in the Jedi Archives.

Exar Kun didn't destroy the holocron, as the comic notes his intention was just to release the spirits from out of it. It's certainly repairable, and why would he destroy it? He just got it from Odan Urr, and before glimpsing into it completely he opts to destroy it? Makes no sense.

Again, I'll need a quote for what Dooku possessed was a forgery. Because Fact File seems to note that it's the real deal, and so does Sidious.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Furthermore, it is said that Exar Kun wouldn't have rose to power as quickly as he had without the Dark Holocron. The fact is that Exar Kun goes from stalemating Ulic Qel-Droma to being stated to be 'far more powerful' than him or any other Jedi in his prime over five years later.

Again, quote? According to you he "destroyed it" almost immediately after maybe having the time to use it once or twice. Doesn't seem like it was a lot of time to suck up the knowledge.
As for the Ulic thing, ILS sums it up rather niceley.

Originally posted by Azronger
AP just disproved this, but I'll address ot anyway: What is any of this based on? Based on what did he not grow vastly? Because he was still behind Yoda and Mace? Based on what was the gap so small that a "vast" growth couldn't have occurred? Based on what would he be in Yoda's tier? Based on what was the gap between Dooku and Yoda the same as between Exar and Vitiate?

Follow me on this now. It's stated that, if Dooku had not turned to the Dark Side, but stayed in the Jedi Order and lived longer(beyond just the timeframe of RotS) he would've been a rival of Grandmaster Yoda. This is backed up by his innate talent/potential being something Yoda has trouble understanding. So obviously, by TPM Dooku's not so far behind Yoda where the latter could outright ragdoll him.

Assuming he'd grow three decades worth in a few weeks from the holocron, according to you, he'd be peaking at Yoda level alread by AotC or even prior, but he isn't and he's still a considerable inferior of the Grandmaster.

And what drives this home is that Exar Kun had the holocron for a few days, at best, before "destroying it" according to you and AP. So a few days(and even that might be too much) reading a holocron is meant to rival fourty years of amassing "unfathomable powers"? Sorry, but your theory has too many holes.

Originally posted by Azronger
Familar with the Sith Lords themselves, yes, but with their accomplishments, no. How could they be, when some never even exerted themselves to their fullest?

Well the TOR encyclopedia hypes up the ancient Sith and even their spirits, and a lot of their good accolades come from it. Besides, Marka Ragnos' and Naga Sadow's rules have been celebrated and a lot of the stuff they did has been documented(both on the battlefield and off). It'd make sense that they be at least somewhat familiar with the power of these Sith.

Originally posted by MythLord
Exar Kun didn't destroy the holocron, as the comic notes his intention was just to release the spirits from out of it. It's certainly repairable, and why would he destroy it? He just got it from Odan Urr, and before glimpsing into it completely he opts to destroy it? Makes no sense.

Wut?

http://static7.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11111/111114474/4249203-smashes+holocron.jpg

He didn't 'just get it', they travel all the way to Yavin IV, which according to guides regarding hyperdrive travel would've taken them almost two weeks.

Besides, it is a fact that Kun learnt from and became more powerful through it.

Originally posted by MythLord
Again, I'll need a quote for what Dooku possessed was a forgery. Because Fact File seems to note that it's the real deal, and so does Sidious.

I don't have a direct quote about the specific holocron, but Sidious claims in Jedi Path that the Sith paraphernalia in the Jedi Archives were elaborate forgeries.

Originally posted by MythLord
Again, quote? According to you he "destroyed it" almost immediately after maybe having the time to use it once or twice. Doesn't seem like it was a lot of time to suck up the knowledge.





Originally posted by MythLord
As for the Ulic thing, ILS sums it up rather nicely.

He missed the point, actually.

Originally posted by ILS
The "far more powerful than any Jedi" accolade doesn't really refer to Ulic after he's left the Jedi and joined with Aleema, which is when him and Kun fought. Furthermore, sources suggest that Ulic is the only one in the galaxy with the power to challenge Kun. After their stalemate, both were noted to rise in power, and Ulic spent much of his time in combat. Kun is more powerful, but it's not by as huge a margin as you're suggesting.

Except the quote isn't specifically referring to the devastation of Yavin IV, it is referring to 'the time'. In which they are generalising the Great Sith War and stating that even though he was far more powerful than any one other Jedi of the time, a combined force defeated him.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Wut?

http://static7.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11111/111114474/4249203-smashes+holocron.jpg

And as the narration says: "Exar Kun does not intend to destroy... but to release". He smashed the thing to release the spirits hidden in it, but he didn't destroy it completely, nor should he.

Originally posted by AncientPower
He didn't 'just get it', they travel all the way to Yavin IV, which according to guides regarding hyperdrive travel would've taken them almost two weeks.

Again, quote?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Besides, it is a fact that Kun learnt from and became more powerful through it.

I will concede to that as you provided quotes. I still doubt several days studying from the holocron could match four decades of amassing unfathomable powers.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I don't have a direct quote about the specific holocron, but Sidious claims in Jedi Path that the Sith paraphernalia in the Jedi Archives were elaborate forgeries.

Which doesn't seem to be the case with the "Dark Holocron" as Sheev is pleased when Dooku fetched that from the Archives.

Originally posted by AncientPower
He missed the point, actually.

I'll let you two settle that amongst yourselves. I'm just here to argue that Exar Kun isn't on par with Vitiate.

Originally posted by MythLord
And as the narration says: "Exar Kun does not intend to destroy... but to release". He smashed the thing to release the spirits hidden in it, but he didn't destroy it completely, nor should he.

You're wildly misinterpreting the scene, he claims he wants to destroy the holocron with the aid of the Jedi. In reality he intends to destroy the holocron and release the spirits so as to corrupt the Jedi and start his Sith Brotherhood.

Originally posted by MythLord
Again, quote?

I'm not quoting anything, I'm merely measuring the estimates of hyperspace travel across the galaxy given in the guides. Ossus to Yavin IV is a long way.

Originally posted by MythLord
Which doesn't seem to be the case with the "Dark Holocron" as Sheev is pleased when Dooku fetched that from the Archives.

Regardless, the point remains that Dooku and Kun did not use the same Sith holocron, Kun destroyed his and released the spirits within it. Furthermore, we know Exar Kun's knowledge died with him.

Originally posted by MythLord
I'll let you two settle that amongst yourselves. I'm just here to argue that Exar Kun isn't on par with Vitiate.

I doubt he is, but he definitely grew a lot with that holocron. He even got his lightsaber technique and saberstaff from it.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You're wildly misinterpreting the scene, he claims he wants to destroy the holocron with the aid of the Jedi. In reality he intends to destroy the holocron and release the spirits so as to corrupt the Jedi and start his Sith Brotherhood.

Well whatever really happened to the holocron, it must've been recovered as The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Fact File and The Official Starships and Vehicles Collection seem to retcon the idea that it was destroyed and confirm Dooku recovered it:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-UBPGI_dPSD8/WFVn0zZGn4I/AAAAAAAABIk/aR5MaPMi6F0dnF04UXRW2vKjAlD4sIFOACL0B/h367/2016-12-17.png

"Nod tried to convince Dooku to access the Temple's forbidden Sith Holocron. Although Dooku was intrigued by the secrets of the Sith artifact(and would in fact steal the device decades later) he refused."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact File #116

Originally posted by AncientPower
I'm not quoting anything, I'm merely measuring the estimates of hyperspace travel across the galaxy given in the guides. Ossus to Yavin IV is a long way.

I would very much like to hear a reason as to why you think it takes that long...

Originally posted by AncientPower
Regardless, the point remains that Dooku and Kun did not use the same Sith holocron, Kun destroyed his and released the spirits within it. Furthermore, we know Exar Kun's knowledge died with him.

How do we know? Again, a quote would be lovely. Later established media seems to point to the Dark Holocron being reconstructed, just perhaps not with the spirits inside it anymore. Or the event of it's destruction was retconned altogether.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I doubt he is, but he definitely grew a lot with that holocron. He even got his lightsaber technique and saberstaff from it.

That's nice.

Originally posted by MythLord
Well whatever really happened to the holocron, it must've been recovered as The Official Starships and Vehicles Collection

Vehicle Sourcebooks, Y you stray off topic from reading material?!

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Vehicle Sourcebooks, Y you stray off topic from reading material?!

Wut?

Originally posted by MythLord
Wut?

You said the Vehicles & Starships book had that quote about the Holocron.

What does that have to do with Vehicles & Starships? Absolutely nothing. I also recall another quote that had absolutely nothing to do with vehicles in another book about vehicles.

It's just too weird to find quotes like that, when a book is suppose to be focusing on something else.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
You said the Vehicles & Starships book had that quote about the Holocron.

What does that have to do with Vehicles & Starships? Absolutely nothing. I also recall another quote that had absolutely nothing to do with vehicles in another book about vehicles.

It's just too weird to find quotes like that, when a book is suppose to be focusing on something else.

It was a book detailing Dooku's star cruiser, and Dooku's life along with it. So it mentions how Nod, then later he stole the Dark Holocron and how that was a key moment for him turning to the Dark Side...
The Vehicles collection has a tendency to tell the biography of the owner of said vehicle, then explain the purpose of the vehicle itself.

Kinda strange....kinda strange..

I'll screenshot it, if you want.

Nah it's ok.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Az I only went along with this historians bunk for the sake of convenience, its never actually stated who the book is written by only that it's in universe (all DK Books are, including the Visual Dictionaries and the Ultimate Guide) but they could well be omniscient as they are in TCSWE. More to the point they are privy to information about the Emperor that no one else knows. Or in other words, you're basing this idea that they are unreliable on fabricated contexts, so I'd try a different excuse tbh.

It's not stated anywhere that they're omniscient. And Nai already disproved the notion here:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=16012240#post16012240

And what exactly are you referring to with "information about the Emperor that no one else knows"? Gnost Dural appeared to know a shit ton about Vitiate, things that no one else knows. Do you think he's omniscient, too? Well, whatever you think, he's not, since he admitted they were only his theories. Just like what the historians write in the Encyclopedia are just their theories as well.

It's not a fabricated context; it's just common sense. No historians has knowledge of how certain events truly transpired; they just look at historical records piece together a conclusion that, to them, makes the most sense. They're not omniscient and don't know everything. And even some of the records they use as "evidence" of certain events may be only half-truths or outright falsehoods, and some might just be guesswork (like a lot of Gnost Dural's stuff). Even some of the historians themselves might be biased and alter or leave something out.

For example, them referring to Vitiate as "almost godlike" may just be a result of Imperial propaganda and/or as a result of being non-Force senstive/low-tier Force sensitive and their limited understanding of what it possible and what isn't. I'm betting you, me and a lot of other people would think mind controlling a planet and draining it dry of life is impossible for a single man to do with the power of his mind, and wouldn't logically make sense since it's fiction, yet if it did happen, I think quite a lot of people would treat such a being as a god.

Another example, how do they know how powerful Exar Kun was? They're ignorant, as we of a lot of things that happened in our history, yet we don't include events in our history books that don't appear in any historical records. Just like the historians in Star Wars don't include events that they don't know to have happened, or in this case, outright didn't happen. Exar Kun never showed his true power to the galaxy, yet sources that are omniscient tell us that he was the most powerful Sith Lord to have ever existed, above such individuals as Karness Muur (who was a peer of Darth Krayt, which opens up a whole new doorway feats and scaling), Freedon Nadd (whose weakened spirit was so much more powerful than King Ommin, a Sith Sorcerer who could literally dominate millions with his powers, that the latter's very survival depended upon his power), and even nexus-amped Vitiate himself, who resided in the galaxy at the time when Exar Kun was proclaimed by another omniscient source as the most powerful dark side user in the galaxy, before the peak of his powers. Who's to say the historians wouldn't have labeled him as "almost godlike" if he had shown his true abilities with the Force?

You're taking this one accolade way too seriously. It's not evidence of novel Vitiate's superiority to Exar Kun in any way, shape or form.

Originally posted by MythLord
Follow me on this now. It's stated that, if Dooku had not turned to the Dark Side, but stayed in the Jedi Order and lived longer(beyond just the timeframe of RotS) he would've been a rival of Grandmaster Yoda. This is backed up by his innate talent/potential being something Yoda has trouble understanding. So obviously, by TPM Dooku's not so far behind Yoda where the latter could outright ragdoll him.

Who's to say how long Dooku would've lived or how long it would have taken him to attain that potential, or how far off from it he was as of TPM? None of what you said proves the gap between TPM Dooku and Yoda isn't in the ragdoll range.



Baseless speculation.



Just because you find it hard to believe, that a holocron could grant someone that much power in such a short amount of time, doesn't mean my "theory" has any holes in it, lol.



Accolades ≠ feats. Sure, they may be familiar with Naga Sadow because the Great Hyperspace War was one of the most notable events in galactic history that was remembered all the way to the modern era, but Marka Ragnos? Karness Muur? All they know is that they were powerful and that's about it. How could they know about their capabilities with the Force? And then there's Exar Kun, who, as I've said many times in this thread, never unleashed his full power to the galaxy.

And the Dark Holocron was definitely destroyed at Kun's hands. We even see on the same page that there's nothing left of it in Kun's hand, and on the next page the shards are literally absorbed into the Jedi's bodies, wiping out all traces of the holocron. What Dooku viewed definitely wasn't the same, and sourcebooks who say it wasn't destroyed are simply incorrect.

Originally posted by Azronger
Who's to say how long Dooku would've lived or how long it would have taken him to attain that potential, or how far off from it he was as of TPM? None of what you said proves the gap between TPM Dooku and Yoda isn't in the ragdoll range.

We know from an objective source that if Dooku stayed with the Jedi he would've soon enough rivalled Yoda. We know he couldn't live long before sucumbing to natural age, and he was already 70 by TPM. By 70, it's logical most of his potential is realized, the potential that he has to one day rival Yoda.

Evidently, if a few days with a holocron = four decades of amassing unfathomable powers, then Dooku should be > Yoda by RotS even if he was within Yoda's ragdoll range by TPM, which given he's close to the peak of his powers and his latent potential rivals Yoda, certianly isn't the case.

Originally posted by Azronger
Baseless speculation.

Just because you find it hard to believe, that a holocron could grant someone that much power in such a short amount of time, doesn't mean my "theory" has any holes in it, lol.

Not at all. The Dooku example works perfectly.

Originally posted by Azronger
Accolades ≠ feats. Sure, they may be familiar with Naga Sadow because the Great Hyperspace War was one of the most notable events in galactic history that was remembered all the way to the modern era, but Marka Ragnos? Karness Muur? All they know is that they were powerful and that's about it. How could they know about their capabilities with the Force? And then there's Exar Kun, who, as I've said many times in this thread, never unleashed his full power to the galaxy.

Nah. Ajunta Pall, Karness Muur, Marka Ragnos, Freedon Nadd, Naga Sadow, etc. All have some incredible hype in the TOR encyclopedia; hype that would've logically only been achieved if the historians writting it knew, or had a vague grasp, at how powerful these Sith in question were. And given how the same introduction that notes this is "in-universe" also notes that the historians went into an "in-depth" history that shaped the galaxy in the time of this war. Exar Kun's Great Sith War did in one way or another shape the galaxy, so they'd be very much aware of his power. Did he ever unleash his full power? No, but neither did the Emperor.
Besides, there's other things that the historians knew of such as the Dark Reaper, which was a weapon more powerful than even Exar Kun, yet it's still noted that the Emperor's powers are "unfathomable" by comparison.

Originally posted by Azronger
And the Dark Holocron was definitely destroyed at Kun's hands. We even see on the same page that there's nothing left of it in Kun's hand, and on the next page the shards are literally absorbed into the Jedi's bodies, wiping out all traces of the holocron. What Dooku viewed definitely wasn't the same, and sourcebooks who say it wasn't destroyed are simply incorrect.

Or maybe it's a, *gasps*, retcon? Happens a lot. Welcome to a fictional franchise.

Originally posted by MythLord
We know from an objective source that if Dooku stayed with the Jedi he would've soon enough rivalled Yoda. We know he couldn't live long before sucumbing to natural age, and he was already 70 by TPM. By 70, it's logical most of his potential is realized, the potential that he has to one day rival Yoda.

Dooku was a unique case in the history of the Jedi Order. Universally respected, he would have been a Master on a par with Yoda had he not abandoned the Order to join its greatest enemies.

-Insider 113

Don't see the word "soon" there. And some humans can live very long, especially Force users.



How do you even know Vitiate spent all that time making himself more powerful? Didn't he himself say that Zakuul was his focus? And how do you know Yoda's growth rate is the same as Vitiate's? He got in 900 years far stronger than Vitiate did in a 1100 (based on novel Vitiate < TOR Vitiate < Valkorion < Plagueis <<< EoTPM Sidious < RotS Sidious = Yoda, so in other words, novel Vitiate <<<<<<< Yoda). Four decades to him is a lot more growth than it is to Vitiate. Dooku wouldn't have caught up to him even though he had the equivelant of 40 of Vitiates growth, as evidenced when he was only contending with Yoda.



Not really.



Whatever. The ancients are beside the point, anyway. No point in continuing that discussion.

Um, yes he did: on Ziost. And even if he hadn't, that wouldn't prove he is more powerful than Exar Kun, only that he had, in the eyes of the historians, unleashed more power than Kun.



Well, obviously draining a planet is more impressive than draining a moon.



I don't agree with that mentality. If a secondary source contradicts higher canon, it is incorrect, in my opinion. But for the sake of the discussion, let's accept that it was a retcon, then. I assume you'll accept this is a retcon as well:

The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched.

-Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

So Dooku is now in Yoda's and Darth Sidious' tier of power, it seems. So Dooku went from KotOR Revan-level to Yoda-level by reading the Dark Holocron and a decade of additional dark side study. That is the equivelant of several one-shot gaps (Revan got one-shot by Vitiate, who in turn gets one-shot by EoTPM Sidious, and Yoda is even more powerful than that). The idea of the Dark Holocron being so powerful isn't so outlandish anymore, now is it? I don't see any evidence as to why Kun couldn't be above novel Vitiate.

Or you'll just concede the point and accept it wasn't a retcon, and also accept that Kun and Dooku had different holocrons.

What a travesty that this thread is still being debated.

Kun has zero chance.

Kun gets thrashed.

@MythLord, you're claiming that those sources disprove the fact Kun destroyrd it when Jedi vs Sith, a more up to date source, retcons the holocrons being separate entities.

Jedi vs Sith was published before The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia:

JvS was published in 2007:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-20MEfwM75RU/WFZRngc9mlI/AAAAAAAABI4/9z4gJxxwxuIozTkJArX83SrmgebNlAzngCL0B/h61/2016-12-18.png

TCSWE was published in 2008:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-g6ZNhXc0AFI/WFZRqH_Ok9I/AAAAAAAABI8/Q9X10ab1g1wuCR9MaMWnGM62J5mXfj9IgCL0B/h68/2016-12-18.png

And I'm still waiting on this awe-inspiring quote. And I'll reply to Az soon.

You can email him at [email protected], but all of this is very interesting.

Exar Kun ~ DE Palpatine
Ulic Qel-Droma >> DE Luke.

"Yes, Exar Kun was as powerful as Palpatine -- maybe even more powerful. Ulic Qel-Droma became far more powerful than Luke Skywalker -- but then we aren't done with Luke yet, so we will have to wait for episode VIII and IX to find out!"

Looks like it's referring to canon only.

screenshot or gtfo

Would also like something more substantial then a typed out quote tbh.

It was specifically in reply to their DE incarnations, besides I think he's merely referencing the fact that Canon Luke is replacing his own.

If you could provide the screenshots of the entire conversation that'd be nice.

Here:

Your question being "as powerful as a S-"

With the S word I presume being Sidious?

I don't really like the fact that your question seemingly comes with a qualifier.

Cause I assume the next words were "as powerful as a Sidious that"

You can see why this makes me a little skeptical.

I mean, regardless it doesn't have any bearing on canonized quotes under Legends.

It has massive bearing, when we already have pre-established quotes that all strongly imply Exar Kun is a Sidious level threat. With this statement by the writer of both Dark Empire and Tales of the Jedi, we know as a matter of fact that he is.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Your question being "as powerful as a S-"

With the S word I presume being Sidious?

I don't really like the fact that your question seemingly comes with a qualifier.

Cause I assume the next words were "as powerful as a Sidious that"

You can see why this makes me a little skeptical.



That was my question.

Originally posted by AncientPower
It has massive bearing, when we already have pre-established quotes that all strongly imply Exar Kun is a Sidious level threat. With this statement by the writer of both Dark Empire and Tales of the Jedi, we know as a matter of fact that he is.

No, it states that along with Sidious he was the greatest challenge Luke overcame.

We have quotes confirming that DE Sidious > RotJ Sidious > RotS Sidious > TPM Sidious > Plagueis > Vitiate > Exar Kun.

Originally posted by AncientPower
That was my question.

*Shrug*

I assume that's not your real name btw?

All of you were hammering AP, and then Tom comes out and states Kun = Palpatine.

gg

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
No, it states that along with Sidious he was the greatest challenge Luke overcame.

We have quotes confirming that DE Sidious > RotJ Sidious > RotS Sidious > TPM Sidious > Plagueis > Vitiate > Exar Kun.

There are numerous quotes referring to Exar Kun as a Sidious tier threat, actually:









Oh and your power scaling is both broken and would be considered irrelevant in terms of what Tom Veitch has just stated.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
All of you were hammering AP, and then Tom comes out and states Kun = Palpatine.

gg

Naturally, I was right all along.

Veitch also said Palpatine can't generate Storms at will, lol.

Originally posted by AncientPower
There are numerous quotes referring to Exar Kun as a Sidious tier threat, actually:









Oh and your power scaling is both broken and would be considered irrelevant in terms of what Tom Veitch has just stated.

The second is stating that Kun and Kyp together MAY become the largest threat the NJO has seen. Given we have a quote clarifying the matter it's irrelevant.

The third and fourth quotes you listed is just as I mentioned, mentioning Sidious and Exar Kun alongside each other.

The first is the only one that has any real merit and given it states forces just as "dire and powerful" prior it seems to me its referring the difficulty of the challenges he overcame being equivalent to Luke's own.

Author opinions means nothing if it goes against canonized quotes.

Because the guy who wrote and designed them, and is the reason the Force power even exists, clearly wouldn't know what he's talking about, right?

You're better than that Nova.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Because the guy who wrote and designed them, and is the reason the Force power even exists, clearly wouldn't know what he's talking about, right?

You're better than that Nova.

Yeah. The guy who wrote something contradictory to something that he'd later say. And guess which one is the one supported by sources?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
The second is stating that Kun and Kyp together MAY become the largest threat the NJO has seen. Given we have a quote clarifying the matter its irrelevant.

The third and fourth quotes you listed is just as I mentioned, mentioning Sidious and Exar Kun alongside each other.

The first is the only one that has any real merit and given it states forces just as "dire and powerful" prior it seems to me its referring the difficulty of the challenges he overcame being equivalent to Luke's own.

Author opinions means nothing if it goes against canonized quotes.

They were directly stated to be greater than an aforementioned fleet of Daala's star destroyers or the Sun Crusher. So appealing to naval assets or military might is clearly incorrect.

Which is very fitting in the grand scheme of things.

I don't even know if I should dignify that with a response tbh.

Source? If the source in question is Drew Karpyshyn or Chris Avellone, I'll be very disappointed. Given neither of them have any relevance with Tom Veitch.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah. The guy who wrote something contradictory to something that he'd later say. And guess which one is the one supported by sources?

So in other words, your argument is that his concepts for the Force Storm power are wrong, therefore everything he ever says is null and moot?

This is gold.

No I'm referencing all the other quotes placing Sidious far and away above Kun.

Fitting in that Kun is a powerful individual even in spirit form who's a threat to DE Luke? Sure. Fitting in that it confirms the quotes of a self contradictory author who's authority is far inferior to that of actually canonized works? I wouldn't say so.

-

Lmao. I don't need a source to state that non canon evidence ( author opinion ) is non canon.

Originally posted by AncientPower
So in other words, your argument is that his concepts for the Force Storm power are wrong, therefore everything he ever says is null and moot?

This is gold.

My argument is that he can be wrong when he's talking about works he's made decades ago.

Certainly it's not gospel.

It looks like Veitch will restate Kun = Palps in his new book coming out, though.

We have a winner.

Even if you try to weasel out of this with appeals to authorial irrelevancy, which are in and of themselves hilarious.

Originally posted by SunRazer
My argument is that he can be wrong when he's talking about works he's made decades ago.

Certainly it's not gospel. Nah, you just won't accept it but we already knew that.

It's not like it'll apply to Legends continuity if it IS confirmed in this new book.

Are you listening to yourself?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
It's not like it'll apply to Legends continuity if it IS confirmed in this new book.
What?

It's going to be made for canon is it not?

Or is it like TOR and it's going to be a Legends work that is made alongside Disney canon?

Apparently Legends? Since he references DE and ToTJ, but then he also references Canon Luke who is vastly different to Legends obviously. Sooo....

He's making a book about Legends Continuity, specifically about DE and TOTJ. His reference to Luke is just a reference to the new Luke and how powerful he might be.

Oh god... Oh no...

Originally posted by AncientPower
We have a winner.

Even if you try to weasel out of this with appeals to authorial irrelevancy, which are in and of themselves hilarious.

Appeals to authorial irrelevancy are what you do all the time with Avellone, lol.

I already rank Kun highly - much moreso than most other people. If Veitch's new book puts Kun near Palpatine, then I won't be the one complaining.

Avellone's referring to a project and concepts that never saw the light of day. LMFAO at you trying to equate the two.

I never said you would be, I just don't appreciate instant dismissal of new sources such as this when we have no reason to do so.

People are counting their chickens before they hatch here. Let's see, not only what the book says, but what it's actually about.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Avellone's referring to a project and concepts that never saw the light of day. LMFAO at you trying to equate the two.

I never said you would be, I just don't appreciate instant dismissal of new sources such as this when we have no reason to do so.

1. I'm talking about him referring to Darth Revan kicking Traya and Surik's asses.

2. Instant dismissal? I'm just saying don't get your hopes up high when it's contradicted by official sources - like the last time Veitch commented on his own works.

Double standards.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. I'm talking about him referring to Darth Revan kicking Traya and Surik's asses.

2. Instant dismissal? I'm just saying don't get your hopes up high when it's contradicted by official sources - like the last time Veitch commented on his own works.

Yes, his concepts of Darth Revan massively differs from the Revan we actually know. His idea of Darth Revan is much more in line with Dark Revan.

Except the contradictions aren't nearly as brazen as you make them out to be.

1. Most of the Darth Revan we know comes from KotOR II, actually. But I'm not opposed to dismissing Avellone's opinion, only that you can't do that and then laugh at other people for maintaining their standards with Veitch, lol. One could say the same about how Veitch views Kun or Palpatine.

2. They're directly contradicted by licensed material, including his own. That's all I'm making it out to be.

A Darth Revan that never lived up to the hype, you mean? Kun's placement by Veitch is directly implied and stated in actual sources, there's the difference.

AP is legit hilarious.

Aside for the Dark Empire endnotes, which directly contradict him, huh.

Originally posted by AncientPower
A Darth Revan that never lived up to the hype, you mean? Kun's placement by Veitch is directly implied and stated in actual sources, there's the difference.

What are you talking about? This is the same Darth Revan that Avellone wrote. He's using that one. lmfao

You do realize that Veitch himself penned Sidious as the most powerful dark side master ever in official sources, right?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Aside for the Dark Empire endnotes, which directly contradict him, huh.

Aren't those from Palps himself tho? They could be fallible.

No they're not, the DE end notes are talking about everyone overall who takes part in the story such as Mon Mothma and what-not.

Yeah they are written from an objective third-person perspective.