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Which of these two Force feats is a superior display of power: Darth Traya draining the 3 members of the Jedi Council on Dantooine OR Darth Thanaton's force storm used against Darth Nox in the final fight of the Sith Inquisitor story?

Darth Traya's attack:
https://media.giphy.com/media/uQbKa1oySsw7e/giphy.gif

Darth Thanaton's attack:
https://media.giphy.com/media/aHs2fGzna7DBC/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/UTvuRxuNAaSuk/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/Od4H1r7vxFzu8/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/51H4ZVrZdBNVC/giphy.gif

I think they're about even tbh though I'd side with Traya's drain showing if push came to shove.

It's hard to tell, they both suck

Traya's by a mile.

Well, I mean, one actually did something and the other didn't.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, I mean, one actually did something and the other didn't.

Couldn't that just be attributed to Nox being capable of tanking that storm while the Jedi couldn't defend from drain? I mean, the Jedi aren't exactly impressive themselves.

Has the difference between a single bolt/stream of lightning and a storm ever been discussed, or do authors just make this shit up as they go along?

Fagaton's storm looks cool and all, but it takes like a minute to conjure, and as Sidious and plenty of others have shown, a single stream is sufficient to down most opponents, or even ash them.

Originally posted by ILS
It's hard to tell, they both suck

Originally posted by ILS
Has the difference between a single bolt/stream of lightning and a storm ever been discussed, or do authors just make this shit up as they go along?

Well, it's compared in PoD when Bane puts up a Storm where the others are releasing singular bolts or streams at best, IIRC.

Other than that, not really.

Originally posted by nfactor1995
Couldn't that just be attributed to Nox being capable of tanking that storm while the Jedi couldn't defend from drain? I mean, the Jedi aren't exactly impressive themselves.

Granted, but there's not much you can do to quantify Thanatos's storm if it had little to no noticeable effect on it's target, regardless of whether or not Traya's drain would have affected that target.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Granted, but there's not much you can do to quantify Thanatos's storm if it had little to no noticeable effect on it's target, regardless of whether or not Traya's drain would have affected that target.

Fair enough 👍

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Granted, but there's not much you can do to quantify Thanatos's storm if it had little to no noticeable effect on it's target, regardless of whether or not Traya's drain would have affected that target.

It was cracking the stone beneath Nox after hitting Nox's shield. Pretty incredible.

Cracking a stone floor isn't mentionable alongside one-shotting Jedi Masters, and I'm pretty sure Nox's shield wasn't doing much to weather that storm's effect on the floor around him.

I mean, when it's just the after effects of the lightning after hitting a shield that pretty much diminished all of its energy I'd have to disagree.

"and I'm pretty sure Nox's shield wasn't doing much to weather that storm's effect on the floor around him."

The lightning didn't hit the floor, it hit Nox. The energy that traveled from Nox to the ground had that effect of cracking stone.

What's with that skinny ass avatar, bro?

Was testing out the image system. KMC is not user friendly.

Why would it be after hitting the shield instead of at the same time?

Are you asking why the lightning wouldn't have hit Nox and the ground at the same time?

Yeah.

You're saying that it's the Lightning after it's been weakened by Nox's Force defenses. I'm asking why it wouldn't be hitting them both at once. Is it visibly arcing off Nox into the ground? Also, not sure how long Nox's defenses lasted, since there's a certain point where you can just see Nox stumbling around.

Actually you're right. I checked the gif and while most of the lightning hit Nox some of the tendrils did arc away from her.

I guess a better way to scale it then would be the gif of Thanaton's casual lightning blast causing an explosion ( like Dooku's in AotC ) against stone.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111228274/4608301-4558224055-jufUQ.gif

And then taking into account the storm he sent at Nox was charged up beforehand.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Was testing out the image system. KMC is not user friendly.

True.

EDIT: Ah, I misread what you were trying to say there, nvm.

Yeah, it's ok though I figured out how to add resized images.

Kind of like how toothless when he found out about his hidden scales.

http://i.imgur.com/tcex6gD.gif

@UCanShootMyNova - Doesn't really compare with instantly killing the three Masters, lol.

Toothless' unfold-able scales do, though.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@UCanShootMyNova - Doesn't really compare with instantly killing the three Masters, lol.

Eh, I'd say it does tbh.

But then, our opinions differ on physical Force feats compared to feats against other Force users.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Toothless' unfold-able scales do, though.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Eh, I'd say it does tbh.

But then, our opinions differ on physical Force feats compared to feats against other Force users.

It's not particularly uncommon.

Causing negligible explosions with a burst of Lightning isn't anywhere close to one-shotting some of the most powerful Masters.

Yes but we're not talking about his blast compared to the drain feat but his storm which we could scale up from the blast.

That wasn't what you said before.

That said, his Storm wasn't charged up the entire time. He unleashes several different bursts. I don't think each burst would really compare to Traya's Drain.

I'm assuming we're referring to this section specifically.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/147508/4797460-thanaton+ability+force+lightning+(8).png

And like I said, it's probably our different perspectives on the type of feats accomplished.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's not particularly uncommon.

Causing negligible explosions with a burst of Lightning isn't anywhere close to one-shotting some of the most powerful Masters.

What exactly makes this masters "some of the most powerful masters?" Most powerful compared to who else?

Compared to most characters in the mythos. Learning some of the most advanced techniques available to the Jedi and performing feats above the vast majority of characters is why.

They're certainly some of the most powerful Masters of their time, but that would probably not be seen as saying much, lol.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, I mean, one actually did something and the other didn't.
This is cheap lowballing of Darth Thanaton's power.

Darth Thanaton had one-shotted Darth Nox (before) so he is capable of one-shotting those Jedi Masters too.

However, unlike those Jedi Masters, Darth Nox was practitioner of Sith Sorcery, bind several Force ghosts to him and drew strength from them to counter Darth Thanaton's powers. Those Force ghosts also granted him virtual immortality; they could bring him back after being struck down. We have not seen anything like this before in any story.

People conveniently forget that some Force ghosts almost killed Palpatine. That is the kind of power they can bring to bear, collectively.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Compared to most characters in the mythos. Learning some of the most advanced techniques available to the Jedi and performing feats above the vast majority of characters is why.

They're certainly some of the most powerful Masters of their time, but that would probably not be seen as saying much, lol.
Whatever they had, doesn't compares to command of the Force of Darth Nox in the slightest - a Sith touted as an adequate replacement of Tulak Hord. And you know what Darth Traya thought of Tulak Hord.

Traya thought Hord was an excellent duelist. She said nothing of him in terms of Force power.

And so what if they don't compare to Nox? You do realize that not affecting somebody doesn't belong in the same library, let alone the same sentence, as killing three people instantly?

His storm staggered Nox if I recall. And that's a feat for Nox not a knock against Thanaton.

It's certainly not a feat for Thanaton.

And it only staggered Nox after an extended period, IIRC.

Why not?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Traya thought Hord was an excellent duelist. She said nothing of him in terms of Force power.

And so what if they don't compare to Nox? You do realize that not affecting somebody doesn't belong in the same library, let alone the same sentence, as killing three people instantly?

Tbh that's kind of like saying that Traya's attack against the 3 Jedi Masters is superior to the Outlander's Valkorion enhanced attack against Arcann that took like 30-40 seconds to do anything to him. Which we know is nonsense (...right?). In that case, that is a fantastic feat by Arcann to block the attack for so long, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's an extremely impressive showing for the Outlander/Valkorion as well.

Originally posted by nfactor1995
Tbh that's kind of like saying that Traya's attack against the 3 Jedi Masters is superior to the Outlander's Valkorion enhanced attack against Arcann that took like 30-40 seconds to do anything to him. Which we know is nonsense (...right?). In that case, that is a fantastic feat by Arcann to block the attack for so long, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's an extremely impressive showing for the Outlander/Valkorion as well.

That feat would be ****ing irrelevant for both parties if not for the effect it had on surrounding ships...

Originally posted by nfactor1995
Tbh that's kind of like saying that Traya's attack against the 3 Jedi Masters is superior to the Outlander's Valkorion enhanced attack against Arcann that took like 30-40 seconds to do anything to him. Which we know is nonsense (...right?). In that case, that is a fantastic feat by Arcann to block the attack for so long, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's an extremely impressive showing for the Outlander/Valkorion as well.

The only reason that feat's impressive is because we get a scope of how devastating the Lightning itself is. If we didn't (as is the case here), then it's not that amazing.

But we already know generally how powerful the lightning is since we know a single casual blast is enough to create an explosion against stone.

I'm pretty sure any competent Sith's Lightning would create such an explosion.

In any case, the question is which showing is a superior display of power? And I'd assume the one that provides the most results and requires the least assumption and calculation would be that one.

Why would you say that? Malgus's lightning seems to not even be fatal. And he's far more powerful then a competent Sith.

For results I'd say it depends on who the technique was attempted on.

Malgus kills several Jedi with it in Deceived.

Ah, you're right. Was thinking of the scene with Aryn Leneer.

Regardless his casual blasts did not have the effect either Thanaton's or Dooku's did as of Decieved. Perhaps a more relevant example is Wyyrlok's who's lightning at best crumbled stone but was unable to produce actual combustion.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm pretty sure any competent Sith's Lightning would create such an explosion.

In any case, the question is which showing is a superior display of power? And I'd assume the one that provides the most results and requires the least assumption and calculation would be that one.

This whole results and outcome focus as the primary measuring stick of Force feats is kind of bothering me a bit. Let's try this. Would you consider Count Dooku's lightning attack on Anakin in AOTC to be superior to Thanaton's display?

My thoughts: The sheer magnitude of the Force storm that Thanaton created and the fact that he used it on a far superior combatant than AOTC Anakin (to address the whole it didn't effect Nox argument) would lead me to believe that Thanaton's is solidly superior. But then, Dooku's actually fully incapacitated Anakin while Thanaton's didn't incapacitate Nox.

Thoughts?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Ah, you're right. Was thinking of the scene with Aryn Leneer.

Regardless his casual blasts did not have the effect either Thanaton's or Dooku's did as of Decieved. Perhaps a more relevant example is Wyyrlok's who's lightning at best crumbled stone but was unable to produce actual combustion.

Whereas Dooku's Lightning failed to affect the stone ceiling other than burning off some of the edges?

That speaks more towards the integrity of the structure.

Originally posted by nfactor1995
This whole results and outcome focus as the primary measuring stick of Force feats is kind of bothering me a bit. Let's try this. Would you consider Count Dooku's lightning attack on Anakin in AOTC to be superior to Thanaton's display?

My thoughts: The sheer magnitude of the Force storm that Thanaton created and the fact that he used it on a far superior combatant than AOTC Anakin (to address the whole it didn't effect Nox argument) would lead me to believe that Thanaton's is solidly superior. But then, Dooku's actually fully incapacitated Anakin while Thanaton's didn't incapacitate Nox.

Thoughts?

We'll make it simple. Out of the instances you listed, Thanaton's Lightning would be more devastating if both were used on the same target, for instance.

Dooku's feat was better for obvious reasons.

Just to be clear, that doesn't mean Thanaton has more potent Lightning than Dooku, since you cited an instance of Thanaton gathering energies on a DS nexus as opposed to Dooku effortlessly sending out a stream on neutral ground.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
That speaks more towards the integrity of the structure.

Or perhaps just a different depiction of the power.

Ah, I see what you're saying. You're saying that of the results of the actions in question Traya's was superior but not necessarily the power demonstrated.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Or perhaps just a different depiction of the power.

I operate by physics. Lightning that caused a combustion trumps lightning that hits an object and dissipates in regards to energy use.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Ah, I see what you're saying. You're saying that of the results of the actions in question Traya's was superior but not necessarily the power demonstrated.

Well the power demonstrated is completely incomparable.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I operate by physics. Lightning that caused a combustion trumps lightning that hits an object and dissipates in regards to energy use.

Lightning that only burns off small layers of stone is inferior to Lightning that outright destroys it, lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well the power demonstrated is completely incomparable.

Yeah. They're very different uses of the Force.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Lightning that only burns off small layers of stone is inferior to Lightning that outright destroys it, lol.

The lightning didn't outright destroy it. It crumbled it. Causing cracks in stone and causing it to crumble isn't as good as disintegrating stone.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
The lightning didn't outright destroy it. It crumbled it. Causing cracks in stone and causing it to crumble isn't as good as disintegrating stone.

He only disintegrated the "skin" of the stone. It's nowhere near as good.

I guess I could get them calc'ed on SB or Naruto forums if you'd like.

I don't care what they calc. They'll end up with things like Revan absorbing 97% of Vitiate's power and thus being on par with him again, lol.

That's Ant's calc which is inaccurate not due to the calc but because of the logic he applied. Obviously it takes far less power to defend against a single concentrated blast of power then it would an ongoing attack.

I.E. Galen Marek telekinetically dominating Vader.

Vader defending against a telekinetic blast of Galen's when he was empowered by Oneness.

You don't have to abandon physics and calcs just because Ant uses twisted logic to push an agenda.

The problem is that feats are written with holistic intentions, not mathematical ones. The only calculations you'd need are just to have a grasp of how massive an object that's being manipulated is, or how far it's being thrown, etc.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Yeah, it's ok though I figured out how to add resized images.

Kind of like how toothless when he found out about his hidden scales.

http://i.imgur.com/tcex6gD.gif Or when a toddler learns to walk.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The problem is that feats are written with holistic intentions, not mathematical ones. The only calculations you'd need are just to have a grasp of how massive an object that's being manipulated is, or how far it's being thrown, etc.

Then you shouldn't have a problem with me calc'ing the energy output of the lightning.

You kind of can't, though. There's not even a defined limit for Wyyrlok's Lightning, since we're only given a single snap-shot of its effects.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Traya thought Hord was an excellent duelist. She said nothing of him in terms of Force power.

And so what if they don't compare to Nox? You do realize that not affecting somebody doesn't belong in the same library, let alone the same sentence, as killing three people instantly?
You don't get it easily, do you?

Darth Nox drew strength from the Force ghosts (bind to him) to shrug-off Darth Thanaton's offense. Clearly, this is not a common defense mechanism. Darth Nox's personal defenses were not up to the task.

Those Jedi Masters didn't had similar luxury.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You don't get it easily, do you?

Darth Nox drew strength from the Force ghosts (bind to him) to shrug-off Darth Thanaton's offense. Clearly, this is not a common defense mechanism. Darth Nox's personal defenses were not up to the task.

Those Jedi Masters didn't had similar luxury.

I know what you're talking about. I've already finished the SI storyline.

That just means the feats aren't comparable. Just because Nox had Ghosts doesn't mean Thanaton's feat is better or anything of the sort. My points in this thread stand.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I know what you're talking about. I've already finished the SI storyline.

That just means the feats aren't comparable. Just because Nox had Ghosts doesn't mean Thanaton's feat is better or anything of the sort. My points in this thread stand.
And what exactly is your point here? Darth Traya is better? Nope.

The Force ghosts aspect changes everything.

My point is that they can't be compared in terms of energy output, lol.

Nova, the Invitation still stands btw

Originally posted by SunRazer
My point is that they can't be compared in terms of energy output, lol.
I see.

Considering that Thanaton held sway over the council the way that he did as a result of them fearing that he could kill them if it came down to that, he certainly was quite powerful. We know Nox's relative level at the time that he faced Thanaton and was killed and when he faced him and overpowered him. The feat certainly isn't a weak one, but I doubt even peaked out as he was that it would have instantly killed the majority of the Dark Council, or that it would have say, ashed them like the most powerful lightning feats we've seen.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You kind of can't, though. There's not even a defined limit for Wyyrlok's Lightning, since we're only given a single snap-shot of its effects.

Why would he hold back?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Why would he hold back?

When did I ever say that?

You seemed to imply it because the energy output of the lightning should be evident upon hitting its target.

They're both sub-par.

Traya's.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
They're both sub-par.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Traya's.


Oh wow, lemme drain featless Jedi Council members.

Oh no, I'm sorry, Kavar took down some fodder, Vrook and Zez helped Kavar rebuild the Jedi Temple.

Lifting some rocks.

A Padawan at the beginning of the Jedi Consular's story on SWTOR lifted something similar to those rocks.

And it took all three of them to do it.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Oh wow, lemme drain featless Jedi Council members.

Oh no, I'm sorry, Kavar took down some fodder, Vrook and Zez helped Kavar rebuild the Jedi Temple.

Lifting some rocks.

A Padawan at the beginning of the Jedi Consular's story on SWTOR lifted something similar to those rocks.

And it took all three of them to do it.
They rebuild the temple in a small timespan.
Proof?

Also, Vrook stunned the Exile, and IIRC Kavar(?) stunned 20 soldiers.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Oh wow, lemme drain featless Jedi Council members.

Oh no, I'm sorry, Kavar took down some fodder, Vrook and Zez helped Kavar rebuild the Jedi Temple.

Lifting some rocks.

A Padawan at the beginning of the Jedi Consular's story on SWTOR lifted something similar to those rocks.

And it took all three of them to do it.

That's tru, but how Thanaton's tickling any more impressive?

Meetra killed scores of fodder Sith on a darkside nexus

How many other Jedi have ever accomplished such an amazing feat?