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Both at their prime.

Fight inside a boxing ring.

Speed and skill vs toughness and endurance.

Who wins?

IP Man wins. Rocky had hella durability but he was never hit with pressure point and joint attacks and shit. Rocky can take all of IP's head shots but the rest of his body probably isn't as crazy strong

Which exact pressure point attacks do you mean? A lot of attacks can be classified or preceived as pressure point attacks but in order for me to put togeter a rebuttal, will need to know which ones you think would be most effective against a boxer.

Well I didn't mean any one in particular but I wouldn't think those are what a boxer is trained to endure or defend against. Kicks as well are going to give Rocky trouble as it's not what he is used to having to deal with at all.

Is Ip Man limited to just punching or can he utilize all his moves? Is Rocky wearing gloves?

Good questions. Could change my answer depending on the answer

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Which exact pressure point attacks do you mean? A lot of attacks can be classified or preceived as pressure point attacks but in order for me to put togeter a rebuttal, will need to know which ones you think would be most effective against a boxer.

Against Twister he attacked his biceps, and against Frank he used elbow strikes and joint strikes to weaken his guard.

Well, my issue of pressure point attacks is that the boxing stance, footwork and constant head movement tends to work pretty well in defending critical areas from precise direct hits to the face/neck. Unless you are meaning body pressure strikes which I'm not too familiar with. Solar plexus maybe? Even then, boxer body movement and use of defensive jabs makes the use of short range high-precision strikes pretty difficult.

Kicks would be effective, tho. But don't forget that Rocky took direct hits from Drago. Who punches at an inhuman 2150 psi (taking in boxer fist contact area, this means he hits at around 8-10k lbs of force) by the end of the training montage. And Rocky managed to gas Drago out by getting hit in the face (well, the body punches did help). As chins go, Rocky can't be beat.

Let's not forget that Rocky in his prime isn't a slouch in the speed dept either.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Is Ip Man limited to just punching or can he utilize all his moves? Is Rocky wearing gloves?

Let's use MMA gloves for both to make the fight even.

Let's use the rules allowed in the Twister fight to give ppl a good reference.

Edit. Minus the kick removal midway.

Originally posted by KingD19
Against Twister he attacked his biceps, and against Frank he used elbow strikes and joint strikes to weaken his guard.

Were they very effective tho? And how would you place Rocky over Frank or Twister?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Let's use MMA gloves for both to make the fight even.

Let's use the rules allowed in the Twister fight to give ppl a good reference.

The rules changed towards the end of the fight. At first kicks were allowed and then they weren't


Originally posted by Nibedicus
Were they very effective tho? And how would you place Rocky over Frank or Twister?

Rocky isn't aggressive like Twister and Frank. He likes to absorb punishment and wait for an opening.

Originally posted by juggerman
1) The rules changed towards the end of the fight. At first kicks were allowed and then they weren't

2) Rocky isn't aggressive like Twister and Frank. He likes to absorb punishment and wait for an opening.

1) Edited it before your post.

2) Would that work for or against Rocky, tho?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) Edited it before your post.

2) Would that work for or against Rocky, tho?

Nice

I think it would work against Rocky since Twister and Frank's aggressiveness kept IP on the defensive and on his heels. I think Rocky's passive style would allow IP to do real damage early on.

I'm assuming IP has already fought 2 boxers at this point so he would have a pretty good idea of what parts to attack to weaken Rocky while Rocky has no real idea what he's in store for

Originally posted by juggerman
Nice

I think it would work against Rocky since Twister and Frank's aggressiveness kept IP on the defensive and on his heels. I think Rocky's passive style would allow IP to do real damage early on.

I'm assuming IP has already fought 2 boxers at this point so he would have a pretty good idea of what parts to attack to weaken Rocky while Rocky has no real idea what he's in store for

Boxers tend to have different styles, tho. Rocky has been shown to fight the defensive fight pretty well if he needed to (vs Clubber Lang) so he can use footwork + defensive jabs to control range (w/c IP can counter using kicks but that would mean he'd open himself up to inside fighting which Rocky is also excellent at such as when he was vs Drago).

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Boxers tend to have different styles, tho. Rocky has been shown to fight the defensive fight pretty well if he needed to (vs Clubber Lang) so he can use footwork + defensive jabs to control range (w/c IP can counter using kicks but that would mean he'd open himself up to inside fighting which Rocky is also excellent at such as when he was vs Drago).

Yes Rocky can be aggressive as he was with Lang but he doesn't have the stamina to keep it up too long. Creed basically told him he had to beat Lang quickly or he would gas himself. And even when he did that he ended up falling back into his more defensive/countering style rather quickly.

I wouldn't bank on Rocky going in like he did against Lang since that was a special case and he has never fought like that before or after his Lang fight. Rocky would lead with his face as per his norm. IP would likely go right for the attacks that aided him against boxers in the past

One question to ppl, tho: I have mostly used actor stats for height/weight when determining stats for fictional characters where their actual stats were never shown or alluded to on-screen. Admittedly, this has flaws (such as when certain actors tend to have their height boosted just to look taller on screen especially when shot close to a taller leading lady). But it is the closest logicsl approximation I can think of.

It gets tougher for characters like IP Man tho. As he is a RL person with RL stats and the movie is based on him (albeit loosely). Do we go RL stats or actor stats?

I'd say actor stats. This is the Movie VS so I'd say we stick to the film

Originally posted by juggerman
Yes Rocky can be aggressive as he was with Lang but he doesn't have the stamina to keep it up too long. Creed basically told him he had to beat Lang quickly or he would gas himself. And even when he did that he ended up falling back into his more defensive/countering style rather quickly.

I wouldn't bank on Rocky going in like he did against Lang since that was a special case and he has never fought like that before or after his Lang fight. Rocky would lead with his face as per his norm. IP would likely go right for the attacks that aided him against boxers in the past

Not saying that Rocky would start off defensively. Just saying that it is within his tools in case he is forced to change his style due to eating too many hits.

I dunno, didn't he work on his stamina specifically for the Drago fight?

Thing is, Rocky can eat hits like popcorn. Every single direct hit from Drago would KTFO of any boxer and Rocky took them. I mean those were clean hits. He should have went down in the first round but he took them and kept on chugging. Tank + counter would be bad for IP, wouldn't it? His kicks and punches tend to leave him open to counters (his machine gun punch leaves his face wide open, for example, Rocky would eat the punches and just do a simple hook or over hand to the face).

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Not saying that Rocky would start off defensively. Just saying that it is within his tools in case he is forced to change his style due to eating too many hits.

I dunno, didn't he work on his stamina specifically for the Drago fight?

Thing is, Rocky can eat hits like popcorn. Every single direct hit from Drago would KTFO of any boxer and Rocky took them. I mean those were clean hits. He should have went down in the first round but he took them and kept on chugging. Tank + counter would be bad for IP, wouldn't it? His kicks and punches tend to leave him open to counters (his machine gun punch leaves his face wide open, for example, Rocky would eat the punches and just do a simple hook or over hand to the face).

Yes he can change but he is not prepared to protect himself from what IP does. Leg kicks, throws, joint hits and all that mess. I just don't see Rocky being able to defend against it all without previous knowledge of IP's fighting style

Well he didn't fight Drago like he intended to fight Lang. In the Lang fight, Rocky ran out and took the fight to him as soon as the fight started. With Drago and everyone else he just ate punches until he was able to unleash the Kraken!

Yes Rocky's durability is the issue for IP. But it's mostly his head imo. IP can unleash precise jabbing hits in joints to weaken Rocky's offense and defense as he has done in the past and is very good at. Also, and this is not for sure but IP might hit harder than Drago. IP has sent mofos FLYING with hits in a way Drago has not. Creed also endured several hits from Drago before he was felled. I'm not trying to take away from Drago, he's a beast, but due to the way kung fu films are choreographed, most martial artists are portrayed as being able to do inhuman things. IP isn't as crazy as some are but he still is crazy strong.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
One question to ppl, tho: I have mostly used actor stats for height/weight when determining stats for fictional characters where their actual stats were never shown or alluded to on-screen. Admittedly, this has flaws (such as when certain actors tend to have their height boosted just to look taller on screen especially when shot close to a taller leading lady). But it is the closest logicsl approximation I can think of.

It gets tougher for characters like IP Man tho. As he is a RL person with RL stats and the movie is based on him (albeit loosely). Do we go RL stats or actor stats?

Like Juggerman said, best stick to actor stats. Unless it's one of those obvious cases, like Xerxes from 300, where they clearly used CG to make him like 8 feet tall.

Originally posted by juggerman
Yes he can change but he is not prepared to protect himself from what IP does. Leg kicks, throws, joint hits and all that mess. I just don't see Rocky being able to defend against it all without previous knowledge of IP's fighting style

Well he didn't fight Drago like he intended to fight Lang. In the Lang fight, Rocky ran out and took the fight to him as soon as the fight started. With Drago and everyone else he just ate punches until he was able to unleash the Kraken!

Yes Rocky's durability is the issue for IP. But it's mostly his head imo. IP can unleash precise jabbing hits in joints to weaken Rocky's offense and defense as he has done in the past and is very good at. Also, and this is not for sure but IP might hit harder than Drago. IP has sent mofos FLYING with hits in a way Drago has not. Creed also endured several hits from Drago before he was felled. I'm not trying to take away from Drago, he's a beast, but due to the way kung fu films are choreographed, most martial artists are portrayed as being able to do inhuman things. IP isn't as crazy as some are but he still is crazy strong.

I mean joint hits and throws are good and all, but what good did they actually do vs his boxer opponents? They did some damage, I agree, but would they really be enough to take out Rocky?

Will have to rewatch IP man, I don't recall any simple hits sending ppl flying. I think it also comes down to understanding that while martial arts movie choreography would have ppl being sent flying at times, we need to take that "unrealistic choreography" factor into consideration and not take it literally when measuring what a character can do. Averaged out, he's also been shown punching undefending ppl in the head over and over without cracking the head open while a single punch from Drago would likely crush the head like an egg.

Also, while Creed did take quite a few hits before getting killed, it is fair to mention that Creed doesn't have a weak chin either as he was able to take direct hits from Rocky as well.

Originally posted by juggerman
I'd say actor stats. This is the Movie VS so I'd say we stick to the film

I dunno. I've always considered:

explicit writer's intent > visual evidence

So it comes down to if the writer wanted to portray the actual (tho loosely based and romanticized) IP Man and not a fictional IP Man.

Again, I dunno. Maybe ask a mod?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
I mean joint hits and throws are good and all, but what good did they actually do vs his boxer opponents? They did some damage, I agree, but would they really be enough to take out Rocky?

Will have to rewatch IP man, I don't recall any simple hits sending ppl flying. I think it also comes down to understanding that while martial arts movie choreography would have ppl being sent flying at times and trying not to apply it directly or at least put that "unrealistic choreography" factor into consideration and not take it literally when measuring what a character can do. Averaged out, he's also been shown punching undefending ppl in the head over and over without cracking the head open while a single punch from Drago would likely crush the head like an egg.

Also, while Creed did take quite a few hits before getting killed, it is fair to mention that Creed doesn't have a weak chin either as he was able to take direct hits from Rocky as well.

Well the joint hits weaken the opponent's ability to attack or defend effectively. I don't think it would KO the Rocko but it would turn the fight heavily in IP's favor

I just rewatched fight scenes from 1 and 2 and I think I misremembered stuff. While he did send a few guys flying at times, you are correct in saying it wasn't typically average hits. The one that I thought of was the fight in part one in his house. He caught the guy with what looked like a light knee and he flew pretty good. There are also a few instances when mid fight he lifts the opponent in the air with ridiculous ease and is able to spin them or manipulate their body in some other way that should be impossible. His strength is pretty high end. And keep in mind, IP holds back 99% of the time. Probably an exaggerated estimate but he holds back a shit ton.

To be fair, I don't recall Rocky's punching power to be mentioned or shown to be above average for a boxer. Yes he KO'd some monsters but in every case they were exhausted by that point. Creed 12th round no KO, Creed 12th round KO, Lang barely noticed his punches in the first fight and in the second only sold them after he was gassed. Drago got cut early on but he was also no selling Rocky's hits at first and really only commented on Rocky's durability not strength. "He's like a piece of iron" I took as his durability. Even with that high durability Rocky has had trouble with taking several hits in a row. Clubber's corner barrage is similar to something IP would do and that torn that ass up. An assault like at the end of IP Man 1 would spell serious trouble for the Italian Stallion

Originally posted by Nibedicus
I dunno. I've always considered:

explicit writer's intent > visual evidence

So it comes down to if the writer wanted to portray the actual (tho loosely based and romanticized) IP Man and not a fictional IP Man.

Again, I dunno. Maybe ask a mod?

I just think it would be too confusing to bring the RL guy into a movie debate. We know he didn't do all the stuff in the film so why use him?

Asking a mod would probably be the best bet to avoid needless arguments tho

Ok. Gonna pause the debate as it is time for me to take my pain meds and maybe get some sleep. Good discussion.

To be continued.

Edit.

Did an edit and messed up the formatting. brb.

Fuuuuuu...! I lost my entire post on and edit mistake....

@&$@$!!!!!!!!!!!!1111!!!oneone

Well, that's a heartbreaker...

That logic doesn't work because Apollo Creed and Clubber Lang who both hit well below Drago downed him with punches multiple times. We know its not supposed to be that high.

Same token even though Frank wasn't measured he actually showcased superhuman strength.

Originally posted by KingD19
That logic doesn't work because Apollo Creed and Clubber Lang who both hit well below Drago downed him with punches multiple times. We know its not supposed to be that high.

Same token even though Frank wasn't measured he actually showcased superhuman strength.

Well, they did say in that world, on average, boxers hit with an average 700 psi.

https://www.reference.com/sports-active-lifestyle/hard-boxer-punch-psi-154e820f7237a5b1

Does say that boxers hit with a max force of 1,200-1,500 psi. But I don't know where they got their numbers and how accurate it is as they cite no sources.

So right now, a bit confused about how PSI works im boxing.

Edit. Rechecked their "source": http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/columns/straight-dope/article/13039270/straight-dope-the-physics-of-punching-someone-in-the-face

Still don't know where they got the 1500 psi punch and how they determined 4 sq inches was the punch area of Drago.

Anyway, to try and reconstruct the meat of my lost post from earlier:

The Rocky movies made a mistake in using PSI instead of lb force. What this means is that: while 2150 lb force would be a borderline superhuman in the real world, the fact that the punch was per square inch means that you still have to multiply the contact surface area of the punch vs the PSI of the punch itself.

Meaning that the inhuman 2150 PSI still needs to be multiplied to Drago's gloved fist's surface area (which is what he used during the tests) which (according to http://www.jasonthalken.com/2014/02/surface-area-measurements-for-26.html) would be around 20+ sq inches. Meaning he could have been hitting for over 40k lbs or 20 tons of freakin force. Superhumanly impossible.

Basically, a scripting error made it that the Rocky world is inhabited by Spiderman-level superhumans.

My question is that do we take explicitly quantified numbers literally or do we acknowledge that writers make mistakes and go for the logical numbers taking into consideration the mistake (similar to acknowledging that sometimes they get physics wrong when doing "feats"? My mind is on the latter being true. But you cannot argue how explicitly it was done in the movie as it was bare faced quantified in a lab and done multiple times. Things like this certainly put my strictness-to-evidence mindset to the test.

Edit. Bear in mind that I am not an expert on punch physics and that if anyone can chime in and correct me, I would really appreciate it.

Originally I was going to go with Ip Man, but he just has a pretty bad record against heavy weight boxers. I mean, he did win against Twister, but that was considering Twister had gloves on and Ip had to dig deep in his bag of tricks.

He could always use the same strategy against Rocky but Rocky seems tougher and more skilled than twister.

Rocky (as per feats) is probably the most durable opponent Ip Man will face and probably one of the strongest. I don't know if Ip Man has what it takes to go the distance against a heavy weight like Rocky. but then there are the kicks, which Rocky has zero experience against. So for now I'll say 5/5 wins on both sides. Maybe 6/10 in Rocky's favor just because he has more feats of taking punishment and still keep going.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Originally I was going to go with Ip Man, but he just has a pretty bad record against heavy weight boxers. I mean, he did win against Twister, but that was considering Twister had gloves on and Ip had to dig deep in his bag of tricks.

He could always use the same strategy against Rocky but Rocky seems tougher and more skilled than twister.

Rocky (as per feats) is probably the most durable opponent Ip Man will face and probably one of the strongest. I don't know if Ip Man has what it takes to go the distance against a heavy weight like Rocky. but then there are the kicks, which Rocky has zero experience against. So for now I'll say 5/5 wins on both sides. Maybe 6/10 in Rocky's favor just because he has more feats of taking punishment and still keep going.

Gloves back then had far less padding than they do now. And even today gloves are only so the boxers don't break their hands punching each other, not to protect your face. Tyson for example can knock you out just as easy with gloves on as off.

Also in that fight against Twister, Ip was heavily handicapped and had to change his entire fighting style, only relying on specialized techniques and a very limited move set since Wing Chun uses legs, holds, and throws just as much if not more than fists. But if he uses the same techniques, Rocky will fall victim to them the same way. And he's never fought anyone who does more than box so he'll be at a disadvantage.


But the most important thing is he has a great record against Heavyweight boxers. He fought 2. He beat Twister who killed a man, and he tied with Frank who is stronger based on feats than any boxer that's ever been in Rocky. This is more important because Frank was bare fisted and was launching Ip with every clean hit, yet they tied. Also he's a lot faster than Rocky.

Originally posted by juggerman
Well the joint hits weaken the opponent's ability to attack or defend effectively. I don't think it would KO the Rocko but it would turn the fight heavily in IP's favor

I just rewatched fight scenes from 1 and 2 and I think I misremembered stuff. While he did send a few guys flying at times, you are correct in saying it wasn't typically average hits. The one that I thought of was the fight in part one in his house. He caught the guy with what looked like a light knee and he flew pretty good. There are also a few instances when mid fight he lifts the opponent in the air with ridiculous ease and is able to spin them or manipulate their body in some other way that should be impossible. His strength is pretty high end. And keep in mind, IP holds back 99% of the time. Probably an exaggerated estimate but he holds back a shit ton.

To be fair, I don't recall Rocky's punching power to be mentioned or shown to be above average for a boxer. Yes he KO'd some monsters but in every case they were exhausted by that point. Creed 12th round no KO, Creed 12th round KO, Lang barely noticed his punches in the first fight and in the second only sold them after he was gassed. Drago got cut early on but he was also no selling Rocky's hits at first and really only commented on Rocky's durability not strength. "He's like a piece of iron" I took as his durability. Even with that high durability Rocky has had trouble with taking several hits in a row. Clubber's corner barrage is similar to something IP would do and that torn that ass up. An assault like at the end of IP Man 1 would spell serious trouble for the Italian Stallion

Pressure strikes are good and all in movies, but you rarely ever see them in actual MMA fights. It is due to the high difficulty and marginal effectiveness these strikes have. Risk-reward is too low to be a smart go-to during real fights. Especially when the opponent's defensive stance, footwork and head movement makes these even harder to do. Now the kicks (w/c will circumvent Rocky's reach advantage) would be his best bet. But even then, his boxer opponents have been shown pretty capable at tanking/defending against them.

I don't think IP has anywhere the power of Clubber Lang. So I also don't think IP's attacks would have anywhere the same effect. If we go by portrayals, I feel that the writer's intent was that IP's attacks are fast and precise than anything else. Rocky's durability scaled up in the Drago fight so even the Clubber fight is a poor reference. Again, by the time of the Drago fight, he took likely dozens of direct clean hits to the face by a puncher that had borderline superhuman power. IRL, a single clean direct hit would KO or kill any boxer. Rocky used his face as a weapon against Drago's fists (and it worked!). If IP tries to launched a barrage like he sometimes does, I'd bet good money Rocky would tank it all and IP woukd end up taking a hook/over hand to the face.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Pressure strikes are good and all in movies, but you rarely ever see them in actual MMA fights. It is due to the high difficulty and marginal effectiveness these strikes have. Risk-reward is too low to be a smart go-to during real fights. Especially when the opponent's defensive stance, footwork and head movement makes these even harder to do. Now the kicks (w/c will circumvent Rocky's reach advantage) would be his best bet. But even then, his boxer opponents have been shown pretty capable at tanking/defending against them.

I don't think IP has anywhere the power of Clubber Lang. So I also don't think IP's attacks would have anywhere the same effect. If we go by portrayals, I feel that the writer's intent was that IP's attacks are fast and precise than anything else. Rocky's durability scaled up in the Drago fight so even the Clubber fight is a poor reference. Again, by the time of the Drago fight, he took likely dozens of direct clean hits to the face by a puncher that had borderline superhuman power. IRL, a single clean direct hit would KO or kill any boxer. Rocky used his face as a weapon against Drago's fists (and it worked!). If IP tries to launched a barrage like he sometimes does, I'd bet good money Rocky would tank it all and IP woukd end up taking a hook/over hand to the face.


We see Ip has more than enough speed/skill/technique to use the pressure points, and they worked fine on Twister. No matter how durable Rocky is, his body can't ignore physics. That's why no matter how good a punch you can take, a slap on the cheek still hurts. Your bones and muscle can't block something not pure solid force.

And Ip has shown more power than Clubber based on feats. Plus he has his entire moveset, where he was casually maneuvering black belts to snap bones.

Originally posted by KingD19
He beat Twister who killed a man, and he tied with Frank who is stronger based on feats than any boxer that's ever been in Rocky. This is more important because Frank was bare fisted and was launching Ip with every clean hit, yet they tied. Also he's a lot faster than Rocky.

Drago killed a man, too. A world champ pro heavyweight boxer at that.

I disagree with Frank being faster than Rocky (if that is what you mean). And Drago's punches were clocked at 2150 psi. This is spiderman level strong if we take it literally. Borderline superhuman if we use logic and consider the fact that Rocky writers may have gotten PSI wrong. So how is Frank better based on feats?

Originally posted by KingD19
We see Ip has more than enough speed/skill/technique to use the pressure points, and they worked fine on Twister. No matter how durable Rocky is, his body can't ignore physics. That's why no matter how good a punch you can take, a slap on the cheek still hurts. Your bones and muscle can't block something not pure solid force.

And Ip has shown more power than Clubber based on feats. Plus he has his entire moveset, where he was casually maneuvering black belts to snap bones.

If you're going to take chinese martial arts choreography and its wonky physics literally, it would be fair for me to take 80s wonky script writing literally and say that Drago punches at 2150 psi. Otherwise, we need to step back and understand that chinese movies have wonky physics in their choreography and 80's movies can have their physics wrong.

Originally posted by KingD19
Gloves back then had far less padding than they do now. And even today gloves are only so the boxers don't break their hands punching each other, not to protect your face. Tyson for example can knock you out just as easy with gloves on as off.

Also in that fight against Twister, Ip was heavily handicapped and had to change his entire fighting style, only relying on specialized techniques and a very limited move set since Wing Chun uses legs, holds, and throws just as much if not more than fists. But if he uses the same techniques, Rocky will fall victim to them the same way. And he's never fought anyone who does more than box so he'll be at a disadvantage.


But the most important thing is he has a great record against Heavyweight boxers. He fought 2. He beat Twister who killed a man, and he tied with Frank who is stronger based on feats than any boxer that's ever been in Rocky. This is more important because Frank was bare fisted and was launching Ip with every clean hit, yet they tied. Also he's a lot faster than Rocky.

Oh please. Anyone who says gloves weren't made to protect your face has never been punched in the face with a bare fist. Yes, the gloves will protect the boxers hands, but the first and primary function of gloves has always been to protect the opponent from sever injury. You can't even spar properly without gloves. You'll end up cutting each other up within the first round.

Tyson can knock you out with or without gloves but that won't change the fact that his punches will hurt a lot more (and will be harder to block) without gloves.

Ip was handicapped in his match against Twister but he still utilized a lot more tricks than Twister, who basically stuck to pure punching. Can't say the same against Frank though, because Ip man utilized his entire arsenal against Frank and still couldn't beat Frank even though Frank only used fists. So you can't say that Rocky will immediately be crippled when faced with Ip Man's full set of moves because obviously (as Frank demonstrated) pure boxing is still very effective against Wing Chun.

You can say that Frank is stronger than Rocky as per feats but Rocky is far more durable, as per feats.

And yes Ip is faster, but Rocky is bigger, heavier and stronger. People in the MvF like to prop "speed" like it's the most important thing in a fight. Truth is in the real world, unless you have a massive advantage in speed then it's almost always size and strength that makes a big difference in a fight (other than skill of course).

Hey Froth, did you read what I wrote regarding the physics error they had in Rocky IV? They used psi instead of lbs. Making Drago's punch hit for around 20 tons. Lol.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Drago killed a man, too. A world champ pro heavyweight boxer at that.

I disagree with Frank being faster than Rocky (if that is what you mean). And Drago's punches were clocked at 2150 psi. This is spiderman level strong if we take it literally. Borderline superhuman if we use logic and consider the fact that Rocky writers may have gotten PSI wrong. So how is Frank better based on feats?

Well they both punched men to death. Creed was 43, retired for 5 years and way out of shape when he fought Drago. So titles in front of boxer don't really hold up.

And Frank is faster than Rocky, shown by how easily he fought Ip who is crazy fast. For example the Northerner couldn't even lay a hand on him in the first movie.

We know he's not Spidey strong, as if he was his first hit(he wasn't holding back) against Creed or Rocky would have sent them flying if not killed them immediately. Borderline is more likely, but Frank would be in the same realm, just stronger.

Frank is better because when he hits people, they get launched off their feet. A jab from his back sent Ip sliding across the floor. And better because he's fast enough to keep pace with Ip. Do you really think Rocky is in that realm of speed? Because his entire style is basically soak up punches then punch back. That won't work against a guy who can snap his arm or leg.

TmmCBP-bBWQ

Originally posted by FrothByte
Oh please. Anyone who says gloves weren't made to protect your face has never been punched in the face with a bare fist. Yes, the gloves will protect the boxers hands, but the first and primary function of gloves has always been to protect the opponent from sever injury.

Tyson can knock you out with or without gloves but that won't change the fact that his punches will hurt a lot more (and will be harder to block) without gloves.

Ip was handicapped in his match against Twister but he still utilized a lot more tricks than Twister, who basically stuck to pure punching. Can't say the same against Frank though, because Ip man utilized his entire arsenal against Frank and still couldn't beat Frank even though Frank only used fists. So you can't say that Rocky will immediately be crippled when faced with Ip Man's full set of moves because obviously (as Frank demonstrated) pure boxing is still very effective against Wing Chun.

You can say that Frank is stronger than Rocky as per feats but Rocky is far more durable, as per feats.

And yes Ip is faster, but Rocky is bigger, heavier and stronger. People in the MvF like to prop "speed" like it's the most important thing in a fight. Truth is in the real world, unless you have a massive advantage in speed then it's almost always size and strength that makes a big difference in a fight (other than skill of course).

I've been hit by both. But regardless of what you say, look it up. Boxing gloves primary purpose is to keep the boxers from shattering their hands punching each other for 12 rounds. Of course they also protect the face, but that's the main focus on making sure boxers can still punch when the fight is over.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_glove

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-boxers-wear-gloves


Frank is on another level than Twister and that's obvious from the fight they had. Even using his full arsenal, Frank was launching him around the room and going blow to blow, even when they took it to the ground.


It's not just Ip's speed. He has better feats of striking than Rocky. And he can bypass his durability by just snapping his leg, or elbow, or chopping him in the throat.

Originally posted by KingD19
Well they both punched men to death. Creed was 43, retired for 5 years and way out of shape when he fought Drago. So titles in front of boxer don't really hold up.

And Frank is faster than Rocky, shown by how easily he fought Ip who is crazy fast. For example the Northerner couldn't even lay a hand on him in the first movie.

We know he's not Spidey strong, as if he was his first hit(he wasn't holding back) against Creed or Rocky would have sent them flying if not killed them immediately. Borderline is more likely, but Frank would be in the same realm, just stronger.

Frank is better because when he hits people, they get launched off their feet. A jab from his back sent Ip sliding across the floor. And better because he's fast enough to keep pace with Ip. Do you really think Rocky is in that realm of speed? Because his entire style is basically soak up punches then punch back. That won't work against a guy who can snap his arm or leg.

TmmCBP-bBWQ

Couple of points to consider:

1. Ip Man is a lightweight. Rocky never punched a lightweight before, he's always gone up against heavyweights who for the most part were bigger than him. It's very possible that his punches would have launched a lightweight too. At the very least, Drago's punches should have.

2. You seem to be biased in thinking boxers are not fast, when in fact they are some of the fastest fighters around. They just don't have fancy moves which catches the eye. Ip Man is probably faster than Rocky due to the fact that he's a lightweight but I wouldn't consider him that much faster. Rocky eventually became a decently fast and agile fighter.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Hey Froth, did you read what I wrote regarding the physics error they had in Rocky IV? They used psi instead of lbs. Making Drago's punch hit for around 20 tons. Lol.

lol. Well that makes him pretty much Spiderman level strong.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Couple of points to consider:

1. Ip Man is a lightweight. Rocky never punched a lightweight before, he's always gone up against heavyweights who for the most part were bigger than him. It's very possible that his punches would have launched a lightweight too. At the very least, Drago's punches should have.

2. You seem to be biased in thinking boxers are not fast, when in fact they are some of the fastest fighters around. They just don't have fancy moves which catches the eye. Ip Man is probably faster than Rocky due to the fact that he's a lightweight but I wouldn't consider him that much faster. Rocky eventually became a decently fast and agile fighter.

That's a possibility, but we didn't see any of that. We see Ip send people flying multiple times, so it's possible for him based on feats and it's a representation of his power(you don't split a thick wooden table in half by kicking off it, or casually kick a sword and send it flying to embed into a door across the room and not be strong). I'm not saying Rocky's not strong. I'm saying based on feats Rocky's not as strong as Frank, who sent Ip flying and with a straight right sent his lacky soaring out of the bullpen despite him having a boxing cushion in front of him.

2. I never said boxers aren't fast. Frank and Twister both hit Ip plenty. I'm saying Rocky isn't fast. No one he fought was near Ip in speed aside from Apollo, and we see how that worked out when he was unfamiliar with his style.

Originally posted by KingD19
That's a possibility, but we didn't see any of that. We see Ip send people flying multiple times, so it's possible for him based on feats and it's a representation of his power(you don't split a thick wooden table in half by kicking off it, or casually kick a sword and send it flying to embed into a door across the room and not be strong). I'm not saying Rocky's not strong. I'm saying based on feats Rocky's not as strong as Frank, who sent Ip flying and with a straight right sent his lacky soaring out of the bullpen despite him having a boxing cushion in front of him.

2. I never said boxers aren't fast. Frank and Twister both hit Ip plenty. I'm saying Rocky isn't fast. No one he fought was near Ip in speed aside from Apollo, and we see how that worked out when he was unfamiliar with his style.

To be honest I don't need Rocky to be as strong as Frank, just in the same strength range as Twister since Twister was clearly hurting Ip even with gloves on. And Rocky is considered one of the strongest punchers in his movies.

Rocky also never learned proper footwork and agility till Rocky III. So his fight with Apollo isn't that great of a comparison since he was a newbie in that movie.

Originally posted by FrothByte
To be honest I don't need Rocky to be as strong as Frank, just in the same strength range as Twister since Twister was clearly hurting Ip even with gloves on. And Rocky is considered one of the strongest punchers in his movies.

Rocky also never learned proper footwork and agility till Rocky III. So his fight with Apollo isn't that great of a comparison since he was a newbie in that movie.

True, but by that same token he took multiple hits from Frank who has Twister beat all around, and Frank wasn't wearing gloves. Ip took more of a beating in the Frank fight than with Twister, but walked off pretty much no worse for wear.

Based on Ip 3, he can take Rocky's punches long enough to put him down. Probably with a joint lock or a temple shot once he realizes how many hits he can take.

And we can't say locks/throws/grapples aren't valid as Ip was snapping bones on thsoe black belts one after the other.

Oh, and Ip even without launching people has displayed super strength in his fight with Tin Chi. He drove a staff through concrete, then damaged it more by just dragging the pole along it.

Rocky can grab and slam just like he did Drago and Hulk Hogan? Or is he limited to boxing?

Originally posted by KingD19
Well they both punched men to death. Creed was 43, retired for 5 years and way out of shape when he fought Drago. So titles in front of boxer don't really hold up.

And Frank is faster than Rocky, shown by how easily he fought Ip who is crazy fast. For example the Northerner couldn't even lay a hand on him in the first movie.

We know he's not Spidey strong, as if he was his first hit(he wasn't holding back) against Creed or Rocky would have sent them flying if not killed them immediately. Borderline is more likely, but Frank would be in the same realm, just stronger.

Frank is better because when he hits people, they get launched off their feet. A jab from his back sent Ip sliding across the floor. And better because he's fast enough to keep pace with Ip. Do you really think Rocky is in that realm of speed? Because his entire style is basically soak up punches then punch back. That won't work against a guy who can snap his arm or leg.

TmmCBP-bBWQ

Wasn't the guy Twister killed an old overweight retired martial arts teacher?

"Sending ppl flying" is a chinese martial arts trope. It happens but we don't suddenly think the martial artist is Captain America. I actually have better evidence than you on who is "superhuman" if taken literally, but I take wonky physics into consideration and simply go by portrayal. IP (and his opponents) is not superhuman by portrayal. He was just a very skilled wing chun master.

From visual speed, I don't see Frank moving any faster than Drago, much less Creed or Rocky in his prime. Being able to keep up with a faster opponent has more to do with precision, range and footwork than it does simply "being fast". The only hits I see him sending IP man back was when he hit IP in the stomach and made him slide 5 feet and when he hit IP square to the ribs and toppled him around that distance. Just because Drago doesn't send ppl flying doesn't make his 2150 psi punches weaker. If IP (being around 140-150 lbs maybe) got hit with 2150 lbs flush to the ribs, I'm guessing he'd be flung easily, too if he was in a chinese movie.

You are oversimplifying Rocky's style. He used his chin to win but if he didn't have any boxing skill to go with it, he would never have been able to lay a finger on Apollo nor been able to circumvent Drago's enormous reach advantage.

If you think Rocky is slow, watch his fight with Clubber once Apollo has trained him and you'll see that he is just as capable at a fast defensive style as he is at soak and counterpunch.

Originally posted by h1a8
Rocky can grab and slam just like he did Drago and Hulk Hogan? Or is he limited to boxing?

Same rules as Twister fight as per page 1.

I was pretty close. Donnie weighs around 145 lbs. And that is likely less for the movie as he was asked to lose 30 lbs for IP Man 3. Which he said he couldn't do.

http://www.jaynestars.com/movies/donnie-yen-asked-to-lost-30-pounds-for-ip-man-3/

Originally posted by KingD19
True, but by that same token he took multiple hits from Frank who has Twister beat all around, and Frank wasn't wearing gloves. Ip took more of a beating in the Frank fight than with Twister, but walked off pretty much no worse for wear.

Based on Ip 3, he can take Rocky's punches long enough to put him down. Probably with a joint lock or a temple shot once he realizes how many hits he can take.

And we can't say locks/throws/grapples aren't valid as Ip was snapping bones on thsoe black belts one after the other.

Oh, and Ip even without launching people has displayed super strength in his fight with Tin Chi. He drove a staff through concrete, then damaged it more by just dragging the pole along it.

If Drago's 2000 psi punches can't put Rocky down in 12 rounds then none of Ip's hits will put Rocky down. I'm giving Ip 4-5/10 wins only because he can grapple. Ip never went the distance with Frank, so you can't say he was tanking Frank's hits.

And would also like to mention that Clubber sent a (edit) 191 lbs (according to announcer) Rocky rolling about the same distance (4-5 ft) with a punch at (3:25). And Clubber was never portrayed in the same level as Drago.

https://youtu.be/o4VyvcySBuE

Rocky was at his best against Drago. He was on another level.That version of Rocky wouldn't have felt anything from Clubber, unless Clubber hits close to 2250psi.

Rocky will eventually catch Ip man like twister did. When he does then it's over. In the meantime Rocky will tank a lot of hits.