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Can Vader or Dooku replicate Maul ragdolling Kenobi, causing disturbances in the force, and breaking barracks?

One already has and the other is considered to be more powerful than him so yes. What sort of retard makes a thread asking this?

What feats do either have that rival Maul's impressive force augmentation and causing. Yoda to sense him as a force disturbance?

Originally posted by carthage
What feats do either have that rival Maul's impressive force augmentation and causing. Yoda to sense him as a force disturbance?
Of course. Maul's presence being strong enough to cause tremors in the force is nothing to swat at.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFEtvIlyXtw

Easily, as both as them are comfortably stronger then Maul.

How is that even a question?
Vader and Dooku are close in terms of Force power. Maybe even equals.

Nah Maul and Dooku are near equals. Vader is above them both by a good margin.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Nah Maul and Dooku are near equals. Vader is above them both by a good margin. yet Vader struggled with Kenobi in anh

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Nah Maul and Dooku are near equals. Vader is above them both by a good margin.

Originally posted by Kurk
yet Vader struggled with Kenobi in anh
and let himself killed*

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Nah Maul and Dooku are near equals. Vader is above them both by a good margin.
Is there something wrong with the hammer?
You insinuate Dooku=Maul in Force terms?

Originally posted by Kurk
yet Vader struggled with Kenobi in anh


Kenobi's probably near Dooku level as well by then. Which we will see soon on Rebels when Maul and Kenobi have an epic final battle:

As for Vader struggling, Just because he didn't blitz him doesn't mean Ben gave him hell. Both combatants knew Vader was gonna win.


Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Is there something wrong with the hammer?
You insinuate Dooku=Maul in Force terms?

Not exactly equal, but going by feats I doubt Dooku's on a whole other level. And in an all out fight I'd say yeah they're near equals, but I'd still give Dooku the edge.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Kenobi's probably near Dooku level as well by then. Which we will see soon on Rebels when Maul and Kenobi have an epic final battle:

As for Vader struggling, Just because he didn't blitz him doesn't mean Ben gave him hell. Both combatants knew Vader was gonna win.




Not exactly equal, but going by feats I doubt Dooku's on a whole other level. And in an all out fight I'd say yeah they're near equals, but I'd still give Dooku the edge.
1. a) So Dooku is still Ben's superior.
b) Apparently Obi-Wan could also blitz Vader. The reason he let himself killed was to make Luke to become a Jedi and defeat the Sith Empire. So that doesn't ease Vader's case.

2. On lightsabre skills; I'd understand you. But Force-wise? Never. If lightning hit Maul once, so it can twice.
Remember when Dooku was drugged and had his Force connection diminished? He hold off the Nightsisters only by using his lightsabre skills. And his lightning(despite of being weakened) still made them a blowjob.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
1. a) So Dooku is still Ben's superior.
b) Apparently Obi-Wan could also blitz Vader. The reason he let himself killed was to make Luke to become a Jedi and defeat the Sith Empire. So that doesn't ease Vader's case.

2. On lightsabre skills; I'd understand you. But Force-wise? Never. If lightning hit Maul once, so it can twice.
Remember when Dooku was drugged and had his Force connection diminished? He hold off the Nightsisters only by using his lightsabre skills. And his lightning(despite of being weakened) still made them a blowjob.


1. a) Probably. But that's not enough to call Dooku an equal to Vader. Vader is after all (in Canon) more powerful than he was as Anakin, who was already more powerful than Dooku. Not saying the difference is that large, but it's definitely a solid and significant difference.
b) Just ignoring the 40 year old choreography and the fact that Lucas hadn't even worked out who Vader was and what everyone's power levels were yet, the dialogue during the fight suggests both combatants knew Vader was going to win. Kind of like the dialogue in the Yoda vs Dooku fight was very telling.

2. Yes Maul doesn't shoot Lightning. And he can't deflect it with his hands either. But given AOTC Kenobi can block Dooku's Lightning with his Saber, I see no reason why Maul couldn't. And Maul pulling the ETA class shuttle off a cliff is still one of the best TK feats displayed in the animation and films.

Yes I agree Dooku very likely handled a situation where he was ambushed, drugged and blinded better than Maul could have. But given Dooku is just decades more experienced the basics like "your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them" are probably just ingrained in his head to a much better extent. But not sure that would help as much in a Dooku vs Maul 1 v 1.

Didn't the writer of Son of Dathomir say Dooku was more powerful than Maul?

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Didn't the writer of Son of Dathomir say Dooku was more powerful than Maul?


Yes. But he was also of the opinion that Maul would beat Dooku in a fight.

That's laughable.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Didn't the writer of Son of Dathomir say Dooku was more powerful than Maul? Originally posted by juggernaut74
That's laughable. The process every Dooku fanboy has to go through regarding Barlow's commentary.

"Dooku > Maul" I WHOLEHEARTEDLY ACCEPT THIS

"Maul would beat Dooku" **** AUTHOR QUOTES AUTHOR QUOTES SUCK

Dooku>Maul.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
1. a) Probably. But that's not enough to call Dooku an equal to Vader. Vader is after all (in Canon) more powerful than he was as Anakin, who was already more powerful than Dooku. Not saying the difference is that large, but it's definitely a solid and significant difference.
b) Just ignoring the 40 year old choreography and the fact that Lucas hadn't even worked out who Vader was and what everyone's power levels were yet, the dialogue during the fight suggests both combatants knew Vader was going to win. Kind of like the dialogue in the Yoda vs Dooku fight was very telling.

2. Yes Maul doesn't shoot Lightning. And he can't deflect it with his hands either. But given AOTC Kenobi can block Dooku's Lightning with his Saber, I see no reason why Maul couldn't. And Maul pulling the ETA class shuttle off a cliff is still one of the best TK feats displayed in the animation and films.

Yes I agree Dooku very likely handled a situation where he was ambushed, drugged and blinded better than Maul could have. But given Dooku is just decades more experienced the basics like "your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them" are probably just ingrained in his head to a much better extent. But not sure that would help as much in a Dooku vs Maul 1 v 1.
1. a) But this is not canon, is it?
And Vader didn't become more powerful(in the Force); but more skilled with it and his lightsabre skills.
Tbh, Anakin beat Dooku because the latter was taken by surprise due to his boasting attitude. I am pretty sure if Dooku knew how much Skywalker improved over the course of the years. He would have not lost.
b) Maybe Vader would have won. But it would be still a hard battle for Vader.

2.) Dooku was only firing a facsimile of his Force lightning to warn Obi-Wan Kenobi. I am pretty sure he could have uberwhelmed Kenobi via the Force. I will post a theory as why Dooku was holding back.
Didn't Dooku lift a massive pot with the Force instantly? I think this is quite a feat.
3.) Dooku could still beat Maul. We know that Sidious seeks replacements with greater Force strength every time he lost an apprentice.
So, essentially, Dooku>Maul Force-wise.
Anakin>Dooku/=Vader>Maul Force-wise.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd

Didn't Dooku lift a massive pot with the Force instantly? I think this is quite a feat.
He lifted many massive stone pillars most likely weighing several tons each with ease. This shits all over any Maul feat that I know of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bYqIksEOek

They were clearly heavy judging by the noise they made when they landed after he released them.

Dooku throwing around cruisers, doing considerably more damage to Obi with the Force, and adding more power to Sidious than Maul could to Talzin while injured should place him noticeably ahead of Maul, yeah.

MythLord agrees with Freedon Nadd?
That's a first.

Originally posted by MythLord
Dooku throwing around cruisers, doing considerably more damage to Obi with the Force, and adding more power to Sidious than Maul could to Talzin while injured should place him noticeably ahead of Maul, yeah. Do people acknowledge your posts when you say things like this, or do they actually go unchallenged? Just skimming I found three things wrong with this:

1. The cruiser feat.

Dooku was on a powerful dark side nexus. Relevant quotes:









Regarding the Valley of Dark Lords:





The vehicles were described as "corroded", so it's likely that time and/or the Dark Side allowed them to waste away, meaning less mass and weight, and all of the ships were regarded as "ancient", meaning the corrosive wreck of a ship Dooku pushed was likely falling to bits..



Many of the cruisers are described as a "wreck":









He didn't throw anything other than small pieces of smashed up vehicles - the text explicitly notes he pushed the cruiser across the ground. He didn't throw it.

Nor is it said anywhere about the specific size of the cruiser - but it can't be all that large, given that it's wings were shorter than Obi-Wan, forcing him to duck under them so he wouldn't be hit by them. Regarding Obi-Wan's cruiser earlier in the novel, the only relevant size measure I got was that it was small, and was only intended to hold two individuals - this is the author's idea of what a cruiser would be. Obi-Wan muses that Anakin and Fetus would be cramped together in one:



Here's the relevant quote regarding Dooku "throwing cruisers":

So, the most impressive thing Dooku did was push an ancient wreck of a cruiser at Obi-Wan and Anakin, while amped by Korriban's nexus.

It's funny; this is one of Dooku's premiere feats which people have taken to referencing in every debate, and one of carthage's recent memes is making fun of Maul's shuttle feat. Yet, when juxtaposing Maul pulling - which is harder than pushing - a shuttle considerably larger than the cruiser Dooku pushed, Maul comes out looking much better. Especially when you consider that Dooku was in a Legends source, which is exaggerated compared to canon depictions of characters, and was amped by a nexus, compared to Maul who was being shot at, missing a leg, and running with Savage Opress leaning on him with all of his weight. Everything about Maul's feat is better.

Honestly, Obi-Wan has better feats than pushing a wrecked cruiser while amped by a frigging nexus.

Oh yay, walls of text. I'll be sure to respond, darling.

I hope you manage to see past your erection for Dooku long enough to glean something from my post this time.

Same goes for you and Maul, tbh.

It's hard to take that personally when, as you pointed out, I have "walls of text" to support my bias.

So do Nai, Freedon_Nadd and Kbroskywalker, heh.

Indeed. I look forward to joining their prestigious ranks as someone who is capable of making arguments.

Perhaps you will want to join us soon? I am looking forward to you reconciling Dooku's nexus-enhanced, ancient, wrecked cruiser pushing feat as being out of Maul's radar, Dooku being able to hurt Obi-Wan even more than killing him, and Talzin being weakened against Sidious not mattering.

Who makes arguments these days, tbh? I thought we just blindly spam our agenda opinions?

Also, I am disinterested in debating lately, mostly since I rarely get into gewd debates with decent debaters, but I'll take you up on this since it might be interesting. After I finish reading the Sandman series, of course

Here's part two on that post:
I've been searching for the ancient Sith Cruisers and the results I found are interesting. At absolute worst, these ships are Sith Starfighters, which are 45 meters long:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-CpLxSpsztoU/WGfJ3deCZLI/AAAAAAAABSA/R_t9U7rbHAgonyzaXVz7VOB9aNTZ9UgRwCL0B/h269/2016-12-31.png
^ I think this is the ship that would've sliced Obi to ribbons.

At best, they're the Personnel carriers that are 215 meters long:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_AC-KkMVTJ4/WGfKDecEXeI/AAAAAAAABSE/s8Tv8N0HTGEkkfF5HoxVz-x0NGQNpIFBACL0B/h583/2016-12-31.png

Or we can meet each other in the middle, and claim the cruiser was a 75-meter long Escort Gunship:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-JKQ3CDe0hkM/WGfLGkBgc2I/AAAAAAAABSM/7Ol_fp2vywA0JuyOVXNvt7gv1U4D1SZ8QCL0B/h284/2016-12-31.png

I'd say the third is most fair, tbh. But even taking the worst of the batch, they're still larger than the ship Maul pulled. And if we're speaking of amps, it's confirmed Maul only pulled the ship down under those circumstances due to a rage-amp:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-1JFiUsFoCJE/WGfMoAagqMI/AAAAAAAABSc/mefYuis-8K8z-tUAyt60qNqdfsS7xw9wgCL0B/h736/2016-12-31.png

A rage amp is considerably greater than a "hollow echo" based on all that we've seen characters do while motivated by rage. On top of that, there's the fact that he was in a desperate hour, whereas Dooku wasn't, something that also would've enhanced his abilities.

And finally, the most impressive part isn't really just throwing and flipping some of the ships, but rather how he then kept smashing all the vehicles together into a large pile big enough to block out the entrance to the hanger, that was likened to a mountain:

"Finally they came to rest in the shadow of one of the giant statues. Obi-Wan leaned against a clawed foot and squinted into the darkness.

He could not see the Sith, but he felt the Sith's amusement, his triumph.

The vehicles now smashed into one another, creating a solid mass of screaming metal, effectively blocking them from the front of the hangar.

Anakin ran to the mountain of metal and tried to climb over it. Obi-Wan felt the dark side rise in a crest and then fall, leaving a vacuum behind.

-- Final Showdown

The feat is considerably better than Maul's. BTW, I don't use Maul's shuttle feat as a meme, and I quite frankly find it insane, but Tyranus' is just on a greater scale, all things considered.

I'll post part three about Talzin and the Obi example later.

Can we assume a gravitational constant of 9.8 on Korriban and Florrum alike? Different constants can affect the impressiveness of a feat, even if it's a smaller mass.

Onto part 3:


I wasn't referring to their respective Force Choking of Obi-Wan. I'm referring to these two instances:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=287
An enraged Darth Maul, desperate to save his apprentice(as per SW.com) telekinetically hurls Obi-Wan with a Force Wave and Kenobi is back up a few seconds later, with just a slight bruise on the head. Compare that to this:

"He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it."

-- Revenge of the Sith novelisation

The "slighest whipcrack" of Dooku's power sends Obi slamming hard against a wall and leaves him out of the picture for a decent amount of time(about as long as Maul's Force Wave), but Tyranus performs it with much greater ease. Then there's using the Force on Kenobi to accelerate his fall and knock him out for a considerable period of time, again done with ease, while focusing on Anakin. Comparing it to Maul's feat, and Dooku comes out on top.



When did I acknowledge it? I mean, I knew you must've made some form of argument against it, but I never read it. *Shrugs*

Anyways, to break down your argument, I'll concede that Talzin was weakened, but there's several points you omitted. The first one being that the entire thing is happening in the heart of Mother Talzin's power:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-kRExj96B8Xk/WGeuXgIhf5I/AAAAAAAABQ8/F018KXP_0rUfO1j4R5-tVPlklX44vz_AACL0B/h848/2016-12-31.png

Next, by draining Dooku, she would've claimed a power far greater than the one she lost(i.e. she'd be a lot more powerful than she was before the ressurection):

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-2M0DhHKYRTQ/WGfgI2PleKI/AAAAAAAABSs/NJVpUOgXBzUXGtmKlGV40a3Dp42HWYjrgCL0B/h777/2016-12-31.png

Next, the ritual was actually complete. The point of it was for her to drain enough of his power until she could possess him:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7c3UaGBLFWs/WGfg_FDvjLI/AAAAAAAABS0/7vJIate5CZAvLCar5XpsBcBBnfa0OEkUQCL0B/h74/2016-12-31.png

Fact File, StarWars.com and just Maul's general attitude suggest that it was too late for Sidious and Grievous to stop the ritual:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-66V0UEwfhRw/WGfggIhMGdI/AAAAAAAABSw/H_ZUNNvNaKATI54-cixznEgxBT9j1nbpACL0B/h1220/2016-12-31.png
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-2QCSECzPkDk/WGfhO04A2NI/AAAAAAAABS4/9sDgB_nb9Ugt69vF0ui9X4pBuaGBlsp4gCL0B/h255/2016-12-31.png
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-LR9_l_52QCA/WGevEHVbM1I/AAAAAAAABRE/G6mZAU20zcYkorJpMDbrJebWje2ik5AKQCL0B/h773/2016-12-31.png

Once the possession was out of the way, it was only a matter of how long it'll take to suck out all of Dooku's juices, and Talzin seems confident she sucked out enough given almost immediately upon her return she screams: I AM WHOLE!

So the things listed above should definitely compensate for whatever exhaustion from the ritual Talzin might've had since she's both at the heart of her power, and by draining Dooku she'd access power greater than what she had before.

Your comparison looks good on paper, but is flimsy when actually put in perspective. You can say Maul and Sheev were at full power, whereas Talzin and Dooku were hindered all you want, but it doesn't balance out. Talzin has factors compensating for her "hinderence", and the hinderence isn't as severe as Dooku's to begin with.

Dooku got struck by the lightning of the most powerful Sith Lord in existence right after having most of his Force reserves drained to allow Talzin to claim "a power far greater than that she had lost". He'd be in a much worse state than Talzin and, unlike her, Tyranus would not have any beneficial factors to partially cancel that out.

And this is not considering the fact that Sidious and Talzin did stalemate each other until Maul and Dooku joined in. Could Sidious have ultimately prevailed? Yes, but at the time it seemed like a dead-even split and then when Maul and Dooku joined, a drastic difference occured.

Heh. This is one of the few times in months I actually semi-tried to make a reasonable case. It was fun.
Good luck, 'Swords. Lets have a nice lil' discussion.

Originally posted by Kurk
Can we assume a gravitational constant of 9.8 on Korriban and Florrum alike? Different constants can affect the impressiveness of a feat, even if it's a smaller mass.

We can because nobody ever notices a gravitational difference between Korriban/Florrum and most worlds, nor is it ever stated or implied.

@ILS - I think Wollf meant Dooku knocking out Obi-Wan by throwing him with TK. Maul tried the same and didn't incapacitate Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Kurk
Can we assume a gravitational constant of 9.8 on Korriban and Florrum alike? Different constants can affect the impressiveness of a feat, even if it's a smaller mass.
That's my Count.

Originally posted by MythLord
Who makes arguments these days, tbh? I thought we just blindly spam our agenda opinions?]
Copy-pasting accolades like shit just to win a debate and not analyze their context and when they were made--doesn't count?

Originally posted by Kurk
yet Vader struggled with Kenobi in anh

Because he was being cautious

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Copy-pasting accolades like shit just to win a debate and not analyze their context and when they were made--doesn't count?

No, much like how spamming utter nonsense and fanfiction about Exar Kun only training for 4 years because he was "angry" doesn't count.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@ILS - I think Wollf meant Dooku knocking out Obi-Wan by throwing him with TK. Maul tried the same and didn't incapacitate Obi-Wan.

Dooku never knocked Obi-Wan out with a Force Push, incapacitated him for like 8 seconds in the movie (which should be equal to the novelization's version because the same events transpire) while Maul's Push on Florrum took Obi-Wan out for a good 15 seconds and this version of Obi-Wan had so much extra focus it enabled him to go from being outmached to actually contending with the brothers (if it amplified his Force Augmentation it would probably enhance his defenses as well), not to mention that Maul also collapsed the cave as a mere side-effect of his Push.

Given the ease with which Dooku does it, and the fact that Maul was rage-amped at the time, Tyranus' performance seems superior, yeah.

The side-effects are irrelevant as we're focusing on their target, not their environment.

I'll respond to the whole post but holy shit, if you really want to simplify things to this level, then Ventress' kick did more damage to Obi-Wan than either Dooku or Maul's TK, and that was while he had backup from Anakin.

It's almost like using isolated instances, taking place in ever-changing environments and situations, isn't rigorous enough research to do anything useful with! Huh!

Wait, when did Ventress KO Obi with a kick? mmm

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Dooku never knocked Obi-Wan out with a Force Push, incapacitated him for like 8 seconds in the movie (which should be equal to the novelization's version because the same events transpire) while Maul's Push on Florrum took Obi-Wan out for a good 15 seconds and this version of Obi-Wan had so much extra focus it enabled him to go from being outmached to actually contending with the brothers (if it amplified his Force Augmentation it would probably enhance his defenses as well), not to mention that Maul also collapsed the cave as a mere side-effect of his Push.

He knocks Obi-Wan out by hurling him into the wall. I'm pretty sure one of the website quotes indicate that Obi-Wan was knocked out upon hitting the wall, not when the walkway collapsed on him (although in that case I have no idea why Dooku collapsed the walkway to begin with).

Originally posted by SunRazer
although in that case I have no idea why Dooku collapsed the walkway to begin with.

To break his legs in case he wakes up? And then insult his footwork?

Originally posted by MythLord
Wait, when did Ventress KO Obi with a kick? mmm https://youtu.be/tpLiiD1Gsjk?t=2m30s

To put this in perspective; that one kick from Ventress left Obi-Wan unable to fight for an excess of like 15 seconds. Many of Maul's kicks with his robotic legs, which are capable of pinning Savage Opress to the ground, left Obi-Wan no worse for wear.

Clearly Ventress didn't skip leg day, to have such a higher damage output than everyone else in TCW whether it be TK or physical strength.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He knocks Obi-Wan out by hurling him into the wall. I'm pretty sure one of the website quotes indicate that Obi-Wan was knocked out upon hitting the wall, not when the walkway collapsed on him (although in that case I have no idea why Dooku collapsed the walkway to begin with).

Yeah after first choking him out, Maul was purposely holding back while choking Obi-Wan and the latter still ended up on the ground injured so let Maul throw him in that state against a wall and I doubt there would be much difference between both performances.

Originally posted by MythLord
Given the ease with which Dooku does it, and the fact that Maul was rage-amped at the time, Tyranus' performance seems superior, yeah.

The side-effects are irrelevant as we're focusing on their target, not their environment.

Ease? There's even a fact file quote which claimed it required all Tyranus's strength to take out Obi-Wan so I doubt it was with ease. On the other hand, like I said to Nova, Obi was first choked out by Dooku so it obviously going to make it easier to knock him out when throwing him against a wall. Even when Maul was holding back when choking him in Sith Hunters Obi-Wan still ended up injured and incapacitated so let alone when Maul would actually give his all and slam him against a wall (we've seen how his Force Push was strong enough to incapacitate a noticeably superior Obi-Wan on Florrum for a good 15 seconds).

The effects it had on the environment are a factor since they show to range behind the attack and since that his power output wasn't solely focused on Obi-Wan (contrary to Dooku) it's even more impressive what he did against Kenobi.

Originally posted by MythLord
No, much like how spamming utter nonsense and fanfiction about Exar Kun only training for 4 years because he was "angry" doesn't count.
Why is it utter nonsense?
And tell me why couldn't that be feasible?
I never said, outrightly, that he trained for 4-5 years. It was my opinion based on Exar Kun's conversation with his fellow Jedi mates and Vodo Siosk-Baas. I never claimed that's a statement.
But it could be possible. And spewing 'utter nonsense' has no correlation with what I said, unless you(I) outrightly claim that's a statement.
Now let's not make a debate out of this on this thread.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
Because he was being cautious
Regarding what?