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New York City, no bfr. Who wins?

Stalemate or DD wins

This is the most recent juggernaut?

Originally posted by Genii96
This is the most recent juggernaut?

Lets say it's classic Cain. Full set of classic powers.

Unless Doomsday can find a way to kill cyttorak and prevent him from powering up Juggernaut there would be nothing he could do to Juggernaut.

Stalemate or DD dies of old age,

Originally posted by Aakla
Stalemate or DD dies of old age, DD's immortal/ageless.

Haha, no. Doomsday wins.

Juggernaut can be defeated. war hulk was powerful enough to kill him. Onslaught hurt him as well. juggernaut took a godblast from thor but thats about it. there arent any other feats as far as i know, that put him at such durability level that doomsday wont be able to overcome. i believe doomsday will overpower his enhancements.

Doomsday

It would be an eternal stalemate. Classic Juggernaut was written to be unbeatable before the nerf happened. Low showings shouldn't be permitted. Know what I mean Zop.

Originally posted by Stoic
It would be an eternal stalemate. Classic Juggernaut was written to be unbeatable before the nerf happened. Low showings shouldn't be permitted. Know what I mean Zop.

That's what I'm thinking.

But would love to hear actual arguments on how/why one could ever beat the other. Evolve? Evolve what? What could Doomsday ever possibly evolve?

Telepathy? Is there precedent for that?

Originally posted by Stoic
It would be an eternal stalemate. Classic Juggernaut was written to be unbeatable before the nerf happened. Low showings shouldn't be permitted. Know what I mean Zop.
Yeah, remember I was on Team Classic Juggernaut in the Classic Jugs vs Kuurth thread.

I say this is an eternal stalemate. Now if this was 8th Day or Trion Juggernaut..........RIP Doomsday.

Originally posted by cdtm
That's what I'm thinking.

But would love to hear actual arguments on how/why one could ever beat the other. Evolve? Evolve what? What could Doomsday ever possibly evolve?

Telepathy? Is there precedent for that?

I won't say impossible, but I see nothing to warrant Doomsday evolving telepathy on the fly to combat a guy that isn't using it to harm him. Also, Cain's TP resistance due to gear is passive, so DD shouldn't actually evolve a way around it. It isn't as if DD was ever portrayed to be anything other than a guy that attempts to punch his way through any opponent in front of him, so figuring this out probably will never occur.

No. His evolution is more along the lines of bypassing the magical invulnerability, IF it happened.

He has already faced magic in DOS vs Bloodwynd and he tank it

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
He has already faced magic in DOS vs Bloodwynd and he tank it

But that really isn't the same magic at all, nor are they powered by the same source. I don't see anything wrong with this being an eternal stalemate. Neither will be able to stop the other.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No. His evolution is more along the lines of bypassing the magical invulnerability, IF it happened.

Since it has never happened, I don't see it happening here.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
He has already faced magic in DOS vs Bloodwynd and he tank it

No

i think all this invulnerability thing is a myth. i mean sure he has a high level of durability. but when ever he went up against big forces he got owned. Onslaught hurt him. War hulk with the celestials tech was able to kill him. then i remember an issue where thru magic he was all burned to armor and skeleton and he kept on but the fact alone he was burned to a skeleton means a lot. then there are showings of him getting hurt by shatterstar and deadpool by hurting his eyes and such. you can say low showings and all but its weird he has a notable amount of them compared to his appearances. then we got juggernaut colossus getting bones broken by cain. now what are his feats to suggest he is really invulnerable? most of his fights are vs the x men. survivng a blast from cyclops or cuts from wolverine doesnt mean you are invulnerable to herald and higher levels. yes he took a godblast from a weakened thor. but to tell you the truth i dont recall any more feats on that level. if anything that feat is the minority. i am not here to lawball juggernaut i am just trying to get this thing straight. what showings does he wield to suggest the things people claim? i personally believe he is very durable but with enough power his durability is overpowered and supressed. i really believe doomsday will overpower his durability field or how ever you would like to call it.

i also find it strange that based on those circumstances, people still claim without any doubt that juggernaut is invulnerable to physical harm. however when SBP has consistant showings of laughing off magic attacks, from heralds to skyfathers, people claim he is not invulnerable to magic and simply is highly resistant. please help me riddle this...

Doomsday wins after an extremely long fight.

Originally posted by Dareangel
i think all this invulnerability thing is a myth. i mean sure he has a high level of durability. but when ever he went up against big forces he got owned. Onslaught hurt him. War hulk with the celestials tech was able to kill him. then i remember an issue where thru magic he was all burned to armor and skeleton and he kept on but the fact alone he was burned to a skeleton means a lot. then there are showings of him getting hurt by shatterstar and deadpool by hurting his eyes and such. you can say low showings and all but its weird he has a notable amount of them compared to his appearances. then we got juggernaut colossus getting bones broken by cain. now what are his feats to suggest he is really invulnerable? most of his fights are vs the x men. survivng a blast from cyclops or cuts from wolverine doesnt mean you are invulnerable to herald and higher levels. yes he took a godblast from a weakened thor. but to tell you the truth i dont recall any more feats on that level. if anything that feat is the minority. i am not here to lawball juggernaut i am just trying to get this thing straight. what showings does he wield to suggest the things people claim? i personally believe he is very durable but with enough power his durability is overpowered and supressed. i really believe doomsday will overpower his durability field or how ever you would like to call it.

i also find it strange that based on those circumstances, people still claim without any doubt that juggernaut is invulnerable to physical harm. however when SBP has consistant showings of laughing off magic attacks, from heralds to skyfathers, people claim he is not invulnerable to magic and simply is highly resistant. please help me riddle this...

Incredible Hulk claimed he could behead him. You know Juggernaut is immortal as long as he is connected to Cyttorak right? So just because the Hulk says he is going to kill him doesn't mean he can.

The Onslaught story was POS. People have explained that before. Even him being hurt by low level magical based weapons are pretty stupid.

In any case DD doesn't have magic or Celestial Tech so there is nothing he can do against Classic Juggernaut. He could just put up his Force Field and stand there.

Originally posted by carver9
Doomsday wins after an extremely long fight.


The only way that I see that happening is if Cain decides to get bored and tunnels his way out of there due to not being able to put DD down permanently.

DD

Originally posted by Sin I AM
No

What do you mean "no"? He did tank booswynd's attack and he was surprised? You need the scan?

Originally posted by big juggy man
Incredible Hulk claimed he could behead him. You know Juggernaut is immortal as long as he is connected to Cyttorak right? So just because the Hulk says he is going to kill him doesn't mean he can.

The Onslaught story was POS. People have explained that before. Even him being hurt by low level magical based weapons are pretty stupid.

In any case DD doesn't have magic or Celestial Tech so there is nothing he can do against Classic Juggernaut. He could just put up his Force Field and stand there.

juggernaut himself was scared and knew war hulk can kill him. i think its obvious the writer wanted to tell us he can kill juggernaut. also the writer made it more obvious by showing war hulk being able to stop the juggernaut and overpower his movement. thats another indication meant to portray the fact war hulk is powerful enough to bypass his powers and defences.

the onslaught story was what? all i know is onslaught was able to hurt juggernaut. thats what we see in the comics.

the celestial tech is not a power of some different category. its a tech that allowed the hulk to tap into more power. fact of the matter is, thru tech or magic or what ever, with enough force he can be hurt and he was hurt. you did not address my other showings and statements. on the other hand, what are the feats you can rely on, to suggest he is resistant to physical harm on such levels?

Originally posted by Dareangel
juggernaut himself was scared and knew war hulk can kill him. i think its obvious the writer wanted to tell us he can kill juggernaut. also the writer made it more obvious by showing war hulk being able to stop the juggernaut and overpower his movement. thats another indication meant to portray the fact war hulk is powerful enough to bypass his powers and defences.

the onslaught story was what? all i know is onslaught was able to hurt juggernaut. thats what we see in the comics.

the celestial tech is not a power of some different category. its a tech that allowed the hulk to tap into more power. fact of the matter is, thru tech or magic or what ever, with enough force he can be hurt and he was hurt. you did not address my other showings and statements. on the other hand, what are the feats you can rely on, to suggest he is resistant to physical harm on such levels?

You ought to go back and re-read that comic. War Hulk saying something and actually doing it in this case would and should be considered hyperbole, or at least there should be a space left for doubt since no one has ever been able to do this to Cain in the past. War Hulk did beat his ass, but how many other characters can boast to that feat while seen on panel? Not many.

Originally posted by Stoic
You ought to go back and re-read that comic. War Hulk saying something and actually doing it in this case would and should be considered hyperbole, or at least there should be a space left for doubt since no one has ever been able to do this to Cain in the past. War Hulk did beat his ass, but how many other characters can boast to that feat while seen on panel? Not many.

why do you believe it should be considered hyperbole? the writer shows us war hulk stopping the juggernaut while cain is surprised as hell someone overpowered his powers. then we see juggernaut basically at his mercy not fighting back and accepting the statement that war hulk can kill him. yes it did not happen on panel but i think the entire issue leads us to accept that it could happen if war hulk desided to di it. i mean whats the point of all that if not to show us that hulk with celestial tech reached that kind of power level. the writer simply didnt want to kill and behead juggernaut but he did want to tell us he can be dead in this fight. how else could he do so?

DD wins this. Juggs was sh*ting his pants after Onslaught hit him so hard I forget where he landed. DD evolves to hit him just as hard

I doubt that. Onslaught was pinching holes in high Heralds. PINCHING. I don't care how strong you think Doomsday is, he isn't doing anything like that. So Doomsday replicating what Onslaught did is slim at best.

Juggernaut holds his own, after all he was beating WWH without much trouble.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
Juggernaut holds his own, after all he was beating WWH without much trouble.

That's not impressive. I mean it's not like he stalemated Amazo. vin

Originally posted by Aakla


Stalemate or DD dies of old age,

Originally posted by carver9
I doubt that. Onslaught was pinching holes in high Heralds. PINCHING. I don't care how strong you think Doomsday is, he isn't doing anything like that. So Doomsday replicating what Onslaught did is slim at best.

This made me lol. I know its the phone's autocorrect function, but the fact it was edited, AND spelled twice, with emphasis, makes me imagine Onslaught pinching him.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
This made me lol. I know its the phone's autocorrect function, but the fact it was edited, AND spelled twice, with emphasis, makes me imagine Onslaught pinching him.

I'm going to pinch a hole in you if you keep messing with me.

carver keep those homoerotic fantasies in check

Originally posted by Dareangel
why do you believe it should be considered hyperbole? the writer shows us war hulk stopping the juggernaut while cain is surprised as hell someone overpowered his powers. then we see juggernaut basically at his mercy not fighting back and accepting the statement that war hulk can kill him. yes it did not happen on panel but i think the entire issue leads us to accept that it could happen if war hulk desided to di it. i mean whats the point of all that if not to show us that hulk with celestial tech reached that kind of power level. the writer simply didnt want to kill and behead juggernaut but he did want to tell us he can be dead in this fight. how else could he do so?

For one, Cain can not die. We also saw him lose his entire body mass on panel so whether or not the sword was capable of cleaving his head off or not, the fact still remains that it probably wouldn't have killed him. Not trying to take anything away from War Hulk, but I'm also not trying to give him anything that we didn't actually see on panel either.

Unless Doomsday is equipped with some Celestial-tech upgrades given by Apocalypse he's not going to bypass Classic Juggs' physical invulnerability. Stalemate.

Meh, he adapted to Guardian Oan energies, he adapted to Waverider's chronal energies, I don't see any particular reason why he shouldn't be able to adapt to the gem given the opportunity

Originally posted by Cogito
Meh, he adapted to Guardian Oan energies, he adapted to Waverider's chronal energies, I don't see any particular reason why he shouldn't be able to adapt to the gem given the opportunity

Yeah, and I don't see why Cytorrak couldn't just give him enough power to crush Doomsday from the start, after all the destruction that these two would cause would certainly please Cytorrak. Unless of course Doomsday is above Cytorrak?

Dd wins

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Dd wins

How would that play out exactly?

Originally posted by Stoic
Yeah, and I don't see why Cytorrak couldn't just give him enough power to crush Doomsday from the start

Because Cytrorrak isn't in the fight? Can't just add outside amps when you feel like it. Besides, that's never happened in a meaningful way before so it's all speculation

Originally posted by Stoic
Yeah, and I don't see why Cytorrak couldn't just give him enough power to crush Doomsday from the start, after all the destruction that these two would cause would certainly please Cytorrak. Unless of course Doomsday is above Cytorrak?

Well if we're going to speculate on what Cytotrrak does, then he takes all the power from Cain and gives it Doomsday, a creature who has certainly caused more death and destruction across worlds than Cain has.

It's more likely for the ghost of Bertron to show up and enhance DD's evolution, than it is for Cyttorak to randomly amp Juggernaut mid-battle.


IMHO.

Originally posted by Galan007
It's more likely for the ghost of Bertron to show up and enhance DD's evolution, than it is for Cyttorak to randomly amp Juggernaut mid-battle.


IMHO.

Who is the ghost of Breton?

Originally posted by Zack M
Who is the ghost of Breton?

Somebody didn't read DOOMSDAY: YEAR ONE or HUNTER/PREY.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Somebody didn't read DOOMSDAY: YEAR ONE or HUNTER/PREY.

I read those eons ago!!

Originally posted by Zack M
I read those eons ago!!

Not an excuse. Detention for you, Mr. Morris.

Originally posted by Zack M
Who is the ghost of Breton? Bertron is the gentleman who created Doomsday ~250,000 years prior to the events of H/P.

Originally posted by cdtm
New York City, no bfr. Who wins?

Since there was no specified time period placed on either, we take the both of them at their best. So who wins this?

I thought if none was specified, we take the latest showings without amps/depowerment, unless sufficient showings exist that said amps/depowerment were pretty long term?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I thought if none was specified, we take the latest showings without amps/depowerment, unless sufficient showings exist that said amps/depowerment were pretty long term?

In that case DD beats a lesser Cain, and loses to the most powerful version of him. Seems pretty simple to me.

Cool. So Juggy wins, except when he loses. Indeed, it is simple.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Cool. So Juggy wins, except when he loses. Indeed, it is simple.


No. Let me say it in a manner that you may be able to easier comprehend.

1. The weaker versions of Cain will lose. These are the ones that are vulnerable to physical attacks. For example the Wrecking Crew beat the tar out of Cain in a weakened state.

2. DD will lose to 8th Day and higher versions of Cain such as Trion Juggernaut, because he wouldn't have any time to evolve before he was defeated.

3. Both at average would simply stalemate.

4. Since we know that Cytorrak can increase the amount of power that Cain can walk around with based on the knowledge that he was able to make him weaker, and then turn around and give him enough power to fight the Green Scar version of the Hulk on equal footing, we can conclude that Cytorrak can indeed increase Cain's power on the fly.

Originally posted by Galan007
It's more likely for the ghost of Bertron to show up and enhance DD's evolution, than it is for Cyttorak to randomly amp Juggernaut mid-battle.


IMHO.

The most recent Cain would be the one who had enough power to kill cytorrak right?

Originally posted by Stoic
No. Let me say it in a manner that you may be able to easier comprehend.

1. The weaker versions of Cain will lose. These are the ones that are vulnerable to physical attacks. For example the Wrecking Crew beat the tar out of Cain in a weakened state.

2. DD will lose to 8th Day and higher versions of Cain such as Trion Juggernaut, because he wouldn't have any time to evolve before he was defeated.

3. Both at average would simply stalemate.

4. Since we know that Cytorrak can increase the amount of power that Cain can walk around with based on the knowledge that he was able to make him weaker, and then turn around and give him enough power to fight the Green Scar version of the Hulk on equal footing, we can conclude that Cytorrak can indeed increase Cain's power on the fly.

1. Agreed.
2. Those aren't in the thread, but also agreed.
3. Wait, now DD has all the time in the world to evolve. Why stalemate?
4. We also know Cytorrak is fickle, and will take power and give power according to who brings the most destruction. We can then conclude that he would favour DD (whose name is actually feared across multiple planets, the GLC, hell, even Darkseid for the destruction he brings) over Cain.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
1. Agreed.
2. Those aren't in the thread, but also agreed.
3. Wait, now DD has all the time in the world to evolve. Why stalemate?
4. We also know Cytorrak is fickle, and will take power and give power according to who brings the most destruction. We can then conclude that he would favour DD (whose name is actually feared across multiple planets, the GLC, hell, even Darkseid for the destruction he brings) over Cain.

In response to 4.

DD would not be the avatar of Cytorrak. So I don't see your point as it becomes nullified. Cain is Cytorraks only means of interacting with the physical universe under most writers pens. Doomsday isn't. The sheer destruction that these two would cause would indeed please Cytorrak according to on panel citation. Trying to give either the win pretty much leads us nowhere which is why my first statement is eternal stalemate, unless of course Cytorrak tires of the shenanigans and pours an extreme amount of his power into his avatar. In which case we have seen 8th Day Juggernaut or Trion Juggernaut. Both are still Juggernaut, but at different levels of power. It's much simpler to just say eternal stalemate than to go into who has or can tap into a greater power pool.

Originally posted by Stoic
In response to 4.

DD would not be the avatar of Cytorrak. So I don't see your point as it becomes nullified. Cain is Cytorraks only means of interacting with the physical universe under most writers pens. Doomsday isn't. The sheer destruction that these two would cause would indeed please Cytorrak according to on panel citation. Trying to give either the win pretty much leads us nowhere which is why my first statement is eternal stalemate, unless of course Cytorrak tires of the shenanigans and pours an extreme amount of his power into his avatar. In which case we have seen 8th Day Juggernaut or Trion Juggernaut. Both are still Juggernaut, but at different levels of power. It's much simpler to just say eternal stalemate than to go into who has or can tap into a greater power pool.

Why wouldn't he be?

Living Monolith had the power
Colossus

Cytorrak has form in giving it to people he thinks will cause more destruction.

I mean, hell, he even put a casting call out for it.

http://s16.postimg.org/xu2w69vw5/003.jpg

Originally posted by Stoic
For one, Cain can not die. We also saw him lose his entire body mass on panel so whether or not the sword was capable of cleaving his head off or not, the fact still remains that it probably wouldn't have killed him. Not trying to take anything away from War Hulk, but I'm also not trying to give him anything that we didn't actually see on panel either.

where was it stated he cant die? we dont know if losing his head would kill him or not. but we do have an indication, which is the fight between him and war hulk. cain gave up and was portrayed as scared and knew war hulk can kill him. if getting decapitated doesnt kill him then he would just continue to fight war hulk and wouldnt care less. cain knows about his powers. he laughed when he got burned to skeleton he knew he will be fine and regenerate. but in this fight, he was scared to lose his head. i think its safe to say that this is a good indication that he indeed was about to get killed in that issue and thats the way he can be killed.

by the way stoic, i just want to make something clear. i am not arguing for the sake of arguing. i respect you a lot as a poster and i simply want to examine all the aspects and see views on the subject.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why wouldn't he be?

Living Monolith had the power
Colossus

Cytorrak has form in giving it to people he thinks will cause more destruction.

I mean, hell, he even put a casting call out for it.

http://s16.postimg.org/xu2w69vw5/003.jpg

I guess it's possible, but I think that historical percentages of him doing that should outweigh one time events likes the one that you're presenting here. But it is possible.

Originally posted by Dareangel
where was it stated he cant die? we dont know if losing his head would kill him or not. but we do have an indication, which is the fight between him and war hulk. cain gave up and was portrayed as scared and knew war hulk can kill him. if getting decapitated doesnt kill him then he would just continue to fight war hulk and wouldnt care less. cain knows about his powers. he laughed when he got burned to skeleton he knew he will be fine and regenerate. but in this fight, he was scared to lose his head. i think its safe to say that this is a good indication that he indeed was about to get killed in that issue and thats the way he can be killed.

Under conventional means, Cain was reduced to a skeleton by Despayre? I think that's how you spell it but not entirely sure. I'm pretty sure that any character can die, but I'm not seeing how a physical character like Doomsday would be able to do something that not even magic was capable of doing to him. So let's do away with it being impossible for Cain to die, and go with you would likely need a particular item or specific spell to kill him. Doomsday in this case is in possession of neither. On the other hand, Doomsday wouldn't die either, so to be honest with anyone interested, I have no idea who would ultimately win this.

Doomsday is stronger than Cain, but less durable. Cain isn't strong enough on average to put Doomsday down for the count, which is why I believe that this would be an eternal stalemate.

My reasons for this is because Cytorrak has both decreased, and increased Cain's level of power on panel. So while DD evolves, there would be nothing to hinder Cytorrak from giving Cain more and more power to keep up with these changes. whoever wins this won't be doing so for a long time IMO.

He doesn't even like Cain. He favours others who cause more destruction. So not even a one-off.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/109146/2447161-cyttorak_2.jpg

Doomsday does not slink, or hide. He destroys.

Originally posted by Stoic
I guess it's possible, but I think that historical percentages of him doing that should outweigh one time events likes the one that you're presenting here. But it is possible.



Under conventional means, Cain was reduced to a skeleton by Despayre? I think that's how you spell it but not entirely sure. I'm pretty sure that any character can die, but I'm not seeing how a physical character like Doomsday would be able to do something that not even magic was capable of doing to him. So let's do away with it being impossible for Cain to die, and go with you would likely need a particular item or specific spell to kill him. Doomsday in this case is in possession of neither. On the other hand, Doomsday wouldn't die either, so to be honest with anyone interested, I have no idea who would ultimately win this.

Doomsday is stronger than Cain, but less durable. Cain isn't strong enough on average to put Doomsday down for the count, which is why I believe that this would be an eternal stalemate.

My reasons for this is because Cytorrak has both decreased, and increased Cain's level of power on panel. So while DD evolves, there would be nothing to hinder Cytorrak from giving Cain more and more power to keep up with these changes. whoever wins this won't be doing so for a long time IMO.

my intention was to show that juggernaut can be hurt physically and maybe even killed. if its by a sword or the way onslaught did it. facts are he was hurt physically or was portrayed as able to get hurt. it only means it takes a lot of power. on the levels of celestial tech or onslaught is a high level. but it can be avhieved in my book. so i stand by my initial statement that with enough force he can be overpowered and hurt and i believe doomsday can reach those levels.