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Hey guys, where would you rank Kanan and Ezra amongst other characters in the mythos?

Kanan's about Qui Gon Jinn level imo.

I doubt he's even on par with Canon Qui-Gon.

You may think that. I couldn't possibly comment.

You quoted it like the Austrlian Prime Minister

It's "You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment". You'll pay for this sin in blood.

Kanan can't touch Qui Gon

Jinn would destroy Kanan into another dimension.

Kanan is average Jedi Master level, probably.

Ezra is average Jedi Knight level, possibly.

They're nothing special though. Just solid Jedi, tbh.

They do got some impressive feats and by now they're supposed to be better than the Inquisitors. What do you believe from Filoni's "best Inquisitor = sub Ventress level"?

Who said Ezra is even on par with an Inquisitor? And Kanan superior? IIRC the only Inq Kanan beat on his own was the GI, and even that was clearly a peak performance.

Kanan is somewhat above your average Jedi Knight, and Ezra's comparable to him.

Nothing special in the grand scheme of things. They are holistically meant to be the underdogs, not powerful, just kinda likeable and semi-capable.

I think Ezra's supposed to have a lot more potential than Kanan though.

I mean heck even Maul wants Ezra as an apprentice.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Who said Ezra is even on par with an Inquisitor? And Kanan superior? IIRC the only Inq Kanan beat on his own was the GI, and even that was clearly a peak performance.

We see Ezra pushing back the 7th Sister on Malachor so while he was tapping into his anger (although not really to an extreme extent) he has also improved massively towards season 3 as evident by official statements and FPJ's own admission (who even went as far to say that S3 Ezra would beat the 7th Sister). Regarding Kanan, he was holding his own against the GI in season 1 (finale) even though he had been tortured for a long duration of time and he only advanced from that point forward, in season 2 we see how he's at least fighting equally with the 5th Brother and 7th Sister while he's actually outdueling the 8th Brother in TotA.

Originally posted by MythLord
Kanan is somewhat above your average Jedi Knight, and Ezra's comparable to him.

Nothing special in the grand scheme of things. They are holistically meant to be the underdogs, not powerful, just kinda likeable and semi-capable.

I doubt that Maul would want a "likeable" or "semi-capable" character as his apprentice, especially since we know from Sam Witwer that Maul sees in Ezra the potential to become what he should have been (remember that this guy was apprenticed to the most powerful Sith ever and could supposedly carry on the RoT in canon).

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
I doubt that Maul would want a "likeable" or "semi-capable" character as his apprentice, especially since we know from Sam Witwer that Maul sees in Ezra the potential to become what he should have been (remember that this guy was apprenticed to the most powerful Sith ever and could supposedly carry on the RoT in canon).

So what you're saying is that Maul had the potential to be stronger than sidious (if trained correctly)
And Ezra the same?
Genuinely interested to know

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
We see Ezra pushing back the 7th Sister on Malachor so while he was tapping into his anger (although not really to an extreme extent) he has also improved massively towards season 3 as evident by official statements and FPJ's own admission (who even went as far to say that S3 Ezra would beat the 7th Sister). Regarding Kanan, he was holding his own against the GI in season 1 (finale) even though he had been tortured for a long duration of time and he only advanced from that point forward, in season 2 we see how he's at least fighting equally with the 5th Brother and 7th Sister while he's actually outdueling the 8th Brother in TotA.


I didn't know FPJ said that about S3 Ezra. But they really need another Inquisitor, or at least see some Serious sparring between Kanan and Ezra so we can gauge how good Ezra is now. Because so far he has no feats to put him on Inquisitor level.

Kanan only ever battled equally with one Inquisitor at a time. And I get he was tortured before he defeated GI, but that was still his best ever performance against him, and he used literally every tool at his disposal to fight him, including Ezra's gun built into his Saber. Which is what I think stopped GI Tk'ing him, like he always did previosuly.

Originally posted by hutchy1345
So what you're saying is that Maul had the potential to be stronger than sidious (if trained correctly)
And Ezra the same?
Genuinely interested to know

The thing is, Sam Witwer (Maul's voice actor) said that Maul was capable of continuing the Rule of Two should Palpatine die, now we also know that the latter saw himself as the ultimate cumulation of this rule. In the end I think that Maul's potential rivals Palpatine's to a certain degree but not really exceeds it, Ezra could perhaps have the same kind of potential but then again it isn't really black and white since we're relying on the words of a voice actor, merely an indication that Ezra's potential is pretty high.

@Ares Lucas said that when Maul was still supposed to be death, after bringing him back in TCW things obviously changed.

The fact that he was considered a legitimate RoT Sith?

They're both inferior to TPM Kenobi.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
I doubt that Maul would want a "likeable" or "semi-capable" character as his apprentice, especially since we know from Sam Witwer that Maul sees in Ezra the potential to become what he should have been (remember that this guy was apprenticed to the most powerful Sith ever and could supposedly carry on the RoT in canon).

Sam Witwer can say what he wants. Anyways, Ezra has a lot of potential, that's for sure, and one day he'll be something great(maybe), but as of now he's just an underdog and much like his master is semi-capable. Nothing too far above average.

Maul doesn't have the potential to surpass Palpatine, rofl.

Originally posted by MythLord
Sam Witwer can say what he wants. Anyways, Ezra has a lot of potential, that's for sure, and one day he'll be something great(maybe), but as of now he's just an underdog and much like his master is semi-capable. Nothing too far above average.

Sure

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Maul doesn't have the potential to surpass Palpatine, rofl.

Give TPM Maul 50 years of Sith training and he comes damn close

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Give TPM Maul 50 years of Sith training and he comes damn close


Who knows. Obviously Maul must have had Great potential for Sidious to choose him as an apprentice. But then he never seemed truly satisfied with a potential apprentice until the name Skywalker came along.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Give TPM Maul 50 years of Sith training and he comes damn close
wtf is this, rofl

Even potential prime Maul would be destroyed by TPM Palpatine.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
wtf is this, rofl

Even potential prime Maul would be destroyed by TPM Palpatine.

No he wouldn't, anybody that can be considered one of the most elite fighters in the entire mythos at the age of 22 should be able to rival palpatine after decades and decades of extra training and experience.

lmfao retard or nah

What you just said has to be the most retarded statement I have read on KMC in the past week.

There's a limit to one's capabilities. Eventually Maul's going to reach a ceiling due to his midichlorians.

Palpatine... is Palpatine. He's the most powerful Sith Lord ever by the end of TPM, and still growing stronger.

That's ****ing obvious with the Rebels TV show.

Maul's a shadow of his former self, granted, but his powers definitely seemed to have reached a peak with SoD.

If Maul's stronger than that, it's not by so much he's then going to go from being ragdolled by to then beating Palpatine.

I don't think you understand this, but Palpatine never intended Maul to be a legitimate successor.

Palpatine never intended to die in the first place.

Palpatine's thoughts on all his servants are that they are just really powerful tools and nothing more. Maul is only Sheev's successor in his own mind.

The DP novel makes that clear when Palpatine reveals to Plagueis that he plans to be the final Dark Lord.

It's also consistent with the Book of the Sith and Palpatine's character in general.

Holy shit, DD9 reached a new level of retard.

its this kind of shit why i dont debate anymore

I'm talking about canon obviously, his standing in Legends is different of course

hes not beating palpatine in canon either, rofl

Firstly. Ant change your Sig. Its getting sad.

Secondly. Regarding Ezra and Kanan. They're solid Jedi probably in the top 10 in canon. But they don't even make top 100 in Legends tbfh

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
its this kind of shit why i dont debate anymore


It's actually a classic debate whether Maul was originally intended to be a full on successor to Palpatine or not. An argument that has a lot more merit in Canon.

Probably because Legends was just dumb.

And FYI just like Vader, Maul would have lost a lot of potential when he got cut in half. His knowledge of the Force also never came close to Palpatine's, (heck he never even learned Force Lightning). So you have absolutely nothing to gauge Maul's full and original potential.

That said, I personally still wouldn't put it on par with Palpatine's, given how excited he was at the discovery of Skywalker.

Not really. As long as we have a Palpatine that plans on becoming omnipotent and never planning to die, then he isn't planning on a legitimate successor.

And I recall people saying that "Palpatine reveals at the end of DP that Maul was a real apprentice" - I didn't see it anywhere. He confirms that all of Plagueis' ideas were actually his - which includes Plagueis telling Sidious to train him as a mere assassin, nothing more. After that, he makes some reference to him being able to use Maul to get rid of his enemies or something along those lines. Nothing about genuine succession.

Do we have any idea that Palpatine was never going to die in canon?

I was more listing the conditions that prevent Maul from being a legitimate successor, but it seems to be that way in Canon. Someone who's read more of the Canon sources might be able to give a more conclusive judgment on this, though.

Alright, I was mainly going from Witwer and Filoni's comments

Which ones in particular?

The one where Witwer said that Sidious thought he found his 'heir' (or something along those lines) but then he got cut in half. Don't know from which interview but IIRC Filoni was there as well

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not really. As long as we have a Palpatine that plans on becoming omnipotent and never planning to die, then he isn't planning on a legitimate successor.

And I recall people saying that "Palpatine reveals at the end of DP that Maul was a real apprentice" - I didn't see it anywhere. He confirms that all of Plagueis' ideas were actually his - which includes Plagueis telling Sidious to train him as a mere assassin, nothing more. After that, he makes some reference to him being able to use Maul to get rid of his enemies or something along those lines. Nothing about genuine succession. I don't recall the novelisation giving a carte blanche to assume every idea that popped into Plagueis head was in fact Sidious' lol. In fact Luceno himself said that Sheev may have just been boasting. On the other hand there are several strong indicators that that was a charade, and the DS Sourcebook states that Maul was not trained to serve the function of assassin, he was just good at assassinations.

@DD9 - I'll need a contextual quote to verify.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I don't recall the novelisation giving a carte blanche to assume every idea that popped into Plagueis head was in fact Sidious' lol. In fact Luceno himself said that Sheev may have just been boasting. On the other hand there are several strong indicators that that was a charade, and the DS Sourcebook states that Maul was not trained to serve the function of assassin, he was just good at assassinations.

Palpatine mentions Maul as one of the ideas that he fed to Plagueis and had Plagueis carefully feed back to him. Plagueis fed Palpatine no ideas about Maul except to train him as an assassin and not as a genuine Sith. Whether Palpatine disobeyed him is irrelevant. The point is that this was Palpatine's original idea - he may have modified it. I'm just saying DP itself doesn't confirm that Maul was a legitimate apprentice as some say. What other sources say is irrelevant to that.

The DSS comes before DP, so it'd be retconned, by the way.

Because Sidious would have fed Plagueis the idea of violating the Rule of Two by training a legitimate Sith Lord to replace him? Nah.

The point is that he was lying, whether he fed that idea to Plagueis or not, it was a smokescreen for his true intentions.

And the Dark Side Sourcebook just reinforces the above.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because Sidious would have fed Plagueis the idea of violating the Rule of Two by training a legitimate Sith Lord to replace him? Nah.

The point is that he was lying, whether he fed that idea to Plagueis or not, it was a smokescreen for his true intentions.

And nah, it just reinforces the above.

Firstly, Sidious is admitting to it being his idea. Secondly, even if it was a lie, that only supports my point that DP doesn't indicate that Maul was a legitimate apprentice in any way.

For that matter, can somebody provide the quotes that indicate (in Legends) that Maul was to be a legitimate apprentice?

The Dark Side Sourcebook isn't the only source that suggests Maul was trained in numerous arts, although ultimately that doesn't mean he was intended to be a successor. Perhaps Sidious was lying to him as well, and only teaching him aspects of everything to give him the illusion of being groomed as a true apprentice. There's certainly other sources that indicate that Palpatine had no intention of Maul surpassing him.

In End Game, Maul himself comes to the conclusion that it's possible that he was a mere tool and not a genuine apprentice, if I recall correctly.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Firstly, Sidious is admitting to it being his idea. Secondly, even if it was a lie, that only supports my point that DP doesn't indicate that Maul was a legitimate apprentice in any way.How? That Maul being a mere assassin was a lie indicates that he was in fact yes, a legitimate Sith Lord. And DP strongly indicates a deception.

You should find the bulk of them here:

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/obi-wan-vs-maul-read-1765585/

The Dark Side Sourcebook states that Maul was not trained to be an assassin, explicitly, that's what's important. But yes, other sources state that Maul was one of the most highly trained Sith in history, and the Ultimate Visual Guide describes him as a "true Sith Lord" - which brings into serious doubt the idea that his curriculum was lacking.

According to Legends, Maul was intended to be the "perfect Sith weapon" and the "violent half" of their partnership, which already makes him much more than a mere assassin. Canon expanded on this by making him a cerebral mastermind as well, and an actual threat to Sidious' designs, other sources state Sidious took an interest in Maul's intellectual perfection, and DP has Sidious musing over the possibility of easing Maul into "public life".

Certainly therefore we can be sure that Sidious intended Maul to be a fully-fledged Sith Lord. Though I admit the question remains as to whether Sidious saw him as a successor, but I don't believe this wouldn't be the case through want of trying. Even if Sidious never truly intended to be succeeded, that didn't stop of him from seeking out the most powerful assets he could find.

Only because he discovered the existence of Darth Plagueis. Other sources describe Maul as being led to believe he was Palpatine's successor, and in TCW he states he was to become "so much more."

1. Him being a legitimate Sith Lord isn't what I was contesting. I'm contesting him being a legitimate RoT apprentice - one destined to succeed his master.

2. I'll take a look at them.

3. There's a source saying that Palpatine trained Maul in all walks of Sith life or something. Still doesn't mean he was an intended successor by any stretch of the imagination, though.

4. That's the point. He thought he was going to be a successor in accordance to the Rule of Two, but once he found out about Plagueis, he realized that might have not been the case.

We're in agreement he's not a mere assassin then?

And it refutes the idea that Palpatine was giving Maul a less than full education, tbh.

Which we know is false, because Sidious intended to bump Plagueis off and use Maul as his true second half, Maul was merely buying into the same deception as Plagueis, that he existed outside the RoT.

1 & 2. I'm not disputing that. I know Sidious trained Maul in more than just assassin arts. My point of contention is that Maul isn't listed as a true successor to Palpatine in DP at all.

3. True second half in what sense though? As a rightful successor to Dark Lordship? I doubt it.

And none of the quotes I saw on that page contradict the idea that Palpatine never planned on having an actual successor. At most, his apprentices were designed to be insurance policies in the event that he died. Certainly not his Plan A.

Well if you accept that Maul was intended as a true Sith Lord, and that Palpatine spared no pains in training him as such, what are your doubts based on? What substantiates the idea that Sidious never intended to have a successor as of his apprenticeship of Maul?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well if you accept that Maul was intended as a true Sith Lord, and that Palpatine spared no pains in training him as such, what are your doubts based on? What substantiates the idea that Sidious never intended to have a successor as of his apprenticeship of Maul?

The fact that Sidious planned to end the RoT and never die, for one. So as I said, Maul was only intended, at best, to ascend to the throne in the event of Sidious dying unexpectedly. He wasn't ever intended to ascend to the throne by killing Sidious in RoT tradition, and in other words, would not have been expected to have more potential than Sidious.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not really. As long as we have a Palpatine that plans on becoming omnipotent and never planning to die, then he isn't planning on a legitimate successor.




Except him wanting Anakin as an apprentice who would surpass him and would overthrow him.

And yeah Witwer's quotes (with Filoni there) definitely suggest Maul was intended to be a true successor.

Palpatine himself hints as much in the Darth Vader comic.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Regarding Ezra and Kanan. They're solid Jedi probably in the top 10 in canon.

Lmao no.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Except him wanting Anakin as an apprentice who would surpass him and would overthrow him.

And yeah Witwer's quotes (with Filoni there) definitely suggest Maul was intended to be a true successor.

Palpatine himself hints as much in the Darth Vader comic.

I said "as long as". So if the conditions aren't met, then yes, Palpatine would want a successor.

I'm mostly discussing Legends here, anyhow.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The fact that Sidious planned to end the RoT and never die, for one. So as I said, Maul was only intended, at best, to ascend to the throne in the event of Sidious dying unexpectedly. He wasn't ever intended to ascend to the throne by killing Sidious in RoT tradition, and in other words, would not have been expected to have more potential than Sidious. He only articulated those intentions - to my knowledge - after Maul's death though, nor did it stop him from attempting to train Marek, Anakin and Luke to surpass him.

EDIT: He appears to suffer from a sort of cognitive dissonance tbh, he expresses, at some points, his intentions to rule supreme forever, and yet can't seem but help himself in attempting to seek out individuals strong enough to succeed him. In that respect nothing really precludes Palpatine taking on someone strong enough to surpass him, and it can also arguably be extrapolated that Sidious, being drawn to power, would only ever take on an apprentice worthy of his lineage.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He only articulated those intentions - to my knowledge - after Maul's death though, nor did it stop him from attempting to train Marek, Anakin and Luke to surpass him.

According to what? If you're referring to BoS, then he mentions Maul, Tyranus and Vader by name as beings not intended to succeed him, and each having limited use.

He actually says that he didn't want Anakin to succeed him, although he did plan for Anakin to be more powerful (strange), and where does he say Marek or Luke were intended to surpass him? He wanted Luke to be his enforcer as he became omnipotent, and he says Marek could've been his equal?

Originally posted by SunRazer
According to what? If you're referring to BoS, then he mentions Maul, Tyranus and Vader by name as beings not intended to succeed him, and each having limited use.He makes some comments about Maul that are frankly inaccurate tbh, if not retconned. And of course were written with 20 years remove. But yes, I'm referring to BoS. I'm not aware of an earlier source.

Source?

He recognised Luke as what Anakin could become: his better, and he says of Marek: "You had such promise. You could have been my successor. My equal."

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He makes some comments about Maul that are frankly inaccurate tbh, if not retconned. And of course were written with 20 years remove. But yes, I'm referring to BoS. I'm not aware of an earlier source.

Also, what retcons BoS in regards to Maul?

There's JvS, which states that he foresaw Maul's death and made no effort to warn him because he was expendable. But that's retconned.



Well, BoS suggests as much, but I'll find some more specific quotes.



He recognized that Luke could destroy him. He explicitly wants Luke to rule with him as his Hand, not succeed him, as of DE.

As for Marek, he was really just lamenting what had been lost. I don't believe it means he actually wanted Marek to be his successor (that was by the time that he planned on being omnipotent), just that he wielded enough power to be able to become that - had Palpatine wanted it, which I doubt he would've.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Regarding Ezra and Kanan. They're solid Jedi probably in the top 10 in canon.


Doubt it:

1. Luke
2. Yoda
3. Anakin
4. Mace
5. Jedi Dooku
6. Kenobi
7. Vos
8/9/10 Qui-Gon/Kit Fisto/Plo Koon

Then when we add all the other Council Member and renowned Jedi swordsmen, they wouldn't even make the top 20 in Canon, and that's just from the names we know of.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Also, what retcons BoS in regards to Maul?TCW. Maul is described by Sidious as an "animal" incapable of applying himself beyond a "limited" set of tasks. Yet in TCW he masterminds an operation that becomes a threat to Sidious' own designs, and in SoD outmanoeuvres both Grievous and Dooku.

That said I think that predates BoS, in which case its just inaccurate, or Palpatine is attempting to downplay a failed apprentice.

Yeah, the perspective on Maul has changed over time.

Not sure how, when its written after Anakin's injuries.

Well we appear to be debating a meaningless distinction here, whether or not Sidious wanted a successor or not, the fact remains that he attempted to apprentice beings that could succeed him, if not sought them out.

In fact, if we consider those Sidious attempted to make his right hand (without alterior motive) Maul - out of Anakin, Luke, Marek and seemingly Talzin - is the odd one out, despite having been Palpatine's first choice. Why would he lower his standards in this case, unless Maul was of the same stock?

This was not the intention of this thread...although I did kind of started it

Kanan and Ezra should be noticeably better than your average Jedi Knight during the Clone Wars, probably. Kanan may be above some Masters.

(They're definitely both above Halsey, though, tbh).

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well we appear to be debating a meaningless distinction here, whether or not Sidious wanted a successor or not, the fact remains that he attempted to apprentice beings that could succeed him, if not sought them out.

In fact, if we consider those Sidious attempted to make his right hand (without alterior motive) Maul - out of Anakin, Luke, Marek and seemingly Talzin - is the odd one out, despite having been Palpatine's first choice. Why would he lower his standards in this case, unless Maul was of the same stock?

Because he could find no one better.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Kanan and Ezra should be noticeably better than your average Jedi Knight during the Clone Wars, probably. Kanan may be above some Masters.

(They're definitely both above Halsey, though, tbh).

Any character in partucaler? (Secura, Tano, ...)

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Kanan and Ezra should be noticeably better than your average Jedi Knight during the Clone Wars, probably. Kanan may be above some Masters.

(They're definitely both above Halsey, though, tbh).

Tbh I doubt above Halsey, he only lost due to Savage's insane durability and strength, yet he showed some pretty nice skill, something which neither Kanan or Ezra have shown to replicate, either of them would have gotten stomped just as bad if not worse.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Any character in partucaler? (Secura, Tano, ...) They're both below S5 Ahsoka, I know that much. But tbh I don't think there are that many comparable Jedi that we know of. In my head-canon Kanan's probably the level of Ima-Gun Di.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Tbh I doubt above Halsey, he only lost due to Savage's insane durability and strength, yet he showed some pretty nice skill, something which neither Kanan or Ezra have shown to replicate, either of them would have gotten stomped just as bad if not worse. How did he show nice skill?

Originally posted by |King Joker|
They're both below S5 Ahsoka, I know that much. But tbh I don't think there are that many comparable Jedi that we know of. In my head-canon Kanan's probably the level of Ima-Gun Di.

How did he show nice skill?

His H2H ability? Certainly above anything Kanan and Ezra shown.

Getting disarmed in literally two seconds and dying 8 seconds later isn't anything I'd put above Kanan or Ezra. Just because his moves looked cool doesn't mean he's actually more capable.

They wouldn't be above him either though, they wouldn't last long against Savage. I mean if you're referring to showings, then...ok yeah they would be since he only has the one scene.

I'd say they at least wouldn't get disarmed in two seconds.

Originally posted by ares834
Because he could find no one better. He passed up Mother Talzin for him.

He did this well over a decade before the death of his master, violating the Rule of Two.

And without, to our knowledge, conducting any kind of thorough search, or search at all.

So no.

Originally posted by ares834
Because he could find no one better.



He already had Talzin. But ditched her due to Maul's potential.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Firstly. Ant change your Sig. Its getting sad.
Awwwww sheeeeeeeyaaaaat!!!

Ant just got roasted by Fated

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Secondly. Regarding Ezra and Kanan. They're solid Jedi probably in the top 10 in canon. But they don't even make top 100 in Legends tbfh
Luke, Yoda, Windu, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Vos, Fisto, Qui-Gon, Gallia, Luminara, Plo Koon, Ahsoka, Eeth Koth, Depa, Pong Krell, Jedi Dooku, etc. are all above them

they are scrubs, yeah.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
they are scrubs, yeah.

Scrubs that beat a Ventress-tier opponent and Maul.

I'm joking lol, try responding to my serious point.

But nah, Ventress would crush the GI lmao.

It doesn't? My point was that Sidious had options and the time to explore them, Talzin was among these, and a very good one, the other being to actually scour the galaxy from potential disciples. Yet he ditched Talzin and forwent a search to immediately apprentice Maul, despite being under no pressure or obligation to do so. You're response to DP has not addressed this I'm afraid.

And I wasn't asking.

Well yeah obviously.

Point is he made significant sacrifices for an individual who is supposedly beneath his standards. If Maul were as such, it would be reckless to sacrifice a valuable asset like Talzin (and in the process make an enemy of her), and violate the Rule of Two, for an expendable short-term apprentice whom he could have potentially found elsewhere if he took the time to look, and didn't really require at the moment.

And yes, given no source has so much as indicated that a through search took place, I'm assuming its a non-existent plot point. Certainly Sidious' backstory isn't want of details since Darth Plagueis.

And even if we did assume such a through exploration of the galaxy occurred, despite it being nowhere detailed in continuity, and that Palpatine had found nothing worth apprenticing, that still wouldn't justify him sacrificing Talzin, violating the Rule of Two, and snatching up Maul, a mere infant, when he was under pressure to do so. He could have instead bode his time, done some more recon, or worked out a way to exploit them both.

Simply put, this is not the behaviour of someone simply scooping up another pawn. This is the behaviour of someone finding just what they wanted, a worthy apprentice, and being prepared to sacrifice a great deal to attain it. Just as Sidious was for the likes of Luke, Marek and Anakin.

And yes, by taking on Maul as his apprentice, with no ulterior motive of exceptional circumstances involved, it's only logical to assume he was worthy of Banite lineage, and in that respect have the potential to at least rival Palpatine's power.

And not asking for Filoni's opinion darl.

Originally posted by SunRazer
According to what? If you're referring to BoS, then he mentions Maul, Tyranus and Vader by name as beings not intended to succeed him, and each having limited use.

He actually says that he didn't want Anakin to succeed him, although he did plan for Anakin to be more powerful (strange), and where does he say Marek or Luke were intended to surpass him? He wanted Luke to be his enforcer as he became omnipotent, and he says Marek could've been his equal?

He says Marek could have surpassed him. The equal thing references his becoming Emperor unless we're going by the idea that he contradicts himself in the next sentence.

And I am saying that if Sidious considered Maul to be "worthy" of being his apprentice, he should have at least have had the potential to rival his power, just as others he also considered worthy did. Or rather, Palpatine wouldn't make someone his apprentice who was not of that caliber.

As for the topic at hand....
I'm interested to see where they leave off kanan and ezra power wise!

Any thoughts on that?

In. The. Dirt.

They've shown power, I'll put Kanan at average master level while Ezra's above an average knight.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And I am saying that if Sidious considered Maul to be "worthy" of being his apprentice, he should have at least have had the potential to rival his power, just as others he also considered worthy did. Or rather, Palpatine wouldn't make someone his apprentice who was not of that caliber.

Why would he not? In Tarkin we see that he considers Vader worthy of being his apprentice despite the fact that Vader could no longer rival him in power. So clearly being capable of rivaling Sidious is not required to be “worthy” of true apprenticeship to Sidious. As for selecting Maul, Maul had enormous potential even if he could not rival Palpatine in power.

Hasley is better than Ezra and possibly Kanan.

Originally posted by ares834
Why would he not? In Tarkin we see that he considers Vader worthy of being his apprentice despite the fact that Vader could no longer rival him in power. So clearly being capable of rivaling Sidious is not required to be “worthy” of true apprenticeship to Sidious. As for selecting Maul, Maul had enormous potential even if he could not rival Palpatine in power. He strokes his ego yeah, but we know that in reality he was training up cyborgs to replace him. Then the next time he gives Vader the "your da greatest" speech, Vader doesn't buy a word of it. And of course, as soon as young Luke comes along, he ditches him at the drop of a hat, then in DE calls him a weak and broken sod, and he did the same in TFU as I recall.

And let's not forget how easily he discarded Dooku and indeed Talzin despite their "enormous" potential. So naw, there's not really any reason to believe that.

When Maul returned Dooku was being a good stand in, and Anakin was being eyed as Dooku's replacement. So there was literally no need for Maul. Also just like with Vader, Palpatine knows Cyborg Maul won't have the same potential as he once did.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Jinn would destroy Kanan into another dimension.

Kanan is average Jedi Master level, probably.

Ezra is average Jedi Knight level, possibly.

They're nothing special though. Just solid Jedi, tbh.

This tbh

Originally posted by hutchy1345
As for the topic at hand....
I'm interested to see where they leave off kanan and ezra power wise!

Any thoughts on that?

About Qui Gon as an overall combatant.

Obi Wan as a telekinetic.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
TCW. Maul is described by Sidious as an "animal" incapable of applying himself beyond a "limited" set of tasks. Yet in TCW he masterminds an operation that becomes a threat to Sidious' own designs, and in SoD outmanoeuvres both Grievous and Dooku.

That's probably why Sidious gets surprised, but you're conflating Canon with Legends anyway. And I try not to mingle TCW with the rest of Legends given how little regard TCW shows for continuity.



Comes after BoS.



It's also written after Tyranus' death and Maul's fall. Anakin was Vader even before he got into the suit. Palpatine states that "I will never seek a true successor" or something along those lines. That includes Vader in his prime.



Why would he lower his standards? Because he had no choice? Anakin/Luke weren't options for him, and Talzin would not have been a practical choice as a disciple. Maul was his first, anyhow, so I'm not seeing how his standards were lowered. If anything, his standards simply increased over time.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That's probably why Sidious gets surprised, but you're conflating Canon with Legends anyway. And I try not to mingle TCW with the rest of Legends given how little regard TCW shows for continuity.Well even in Legends Maul is retconned into surviving TPM, so I would say either way things are fundamentally changed. Furthermore, up until the Legends/Canon split, EU material did and was expected to conform to Canon developments. So its still outdated.

Regardless, I'm assessing this from Canon mainly, given it gives the most complete, and accurate depiction of Maul.

But yeah, it doesn't make sense, even if Sidious was surprised he's still writing after the events of TCW. Nor does it make sense Sidious would be clueless to Maul being a scheming mastermind either, surely Maul learnt his cunning from his master.

So it would seem.

Fair enough, but as I said, I don't think the distinction is important, as it didn't stop him seeking out people capable of surpassing/succeeding him anyway.

I've already explained to Ares why he had plenty of choice, and time to explore his options. And yes, Talzin was among them, which he evidently considered practical enough to make his right hand

Because there is no reason for his standards to suddenly shoot up.

The EU isn't going to conform to material in another reality, lol. SoD has no bearing on the EU.

And TCW has always had little regard for the EU, which is why I don't like conflating it with the rest of the EU.



Therein lies the source of our contention. I'm open to its possibility in Canon, but I'm highly suspect of it in Legends.



Sidious' standards for cunning probably just weren't met up to TPM. And again, TCW completely disregards Legends (see Adi Gallia being resurrected to be killed by Savage instead, for instance), so honestly, it's not that valid of a mark against BoS.



The fact that they're capable of surpassing him doesn't mean he intended for them to surpass him. And thus it doesn't mean that everyone that Palpatine sought out could've surpassed him.



Talzin was never Palpatine's right hand in Legends. And in Legends, we have plenty of reasons as to why Sidious would prefer Maul over Talzin, not just because he was more powerful.



Maybe because he started seeing even more powerful beings?

That's not Tarkin, that's Dark Lord...

That said? He still refers to Vader as his "crippled apprentice", but also acknowledges there (and elsewhere) that Vader might possess the capacity to kill him. Altogether it only makes sense that he would keep the Chosen One, whom he'd work so hard attain, close to him, even if he was a cripple.

That makes him valuable certainly, but worthy? Not when it came down to it. Again, he disparaged and cast him off at the drop of a hat.

Because he thought he was dead yeah. Hardly unsurprising considering Maul was cut in half.

On the other hand according to Witwer's commentary, it was Maul's survival that inspired Sidious to attempt to rebuild Vader, of course he would have done the same to Maul if he'd known it possible. That's why he was described as a loss

As for whether he contemplated taking Maul back as his apprentice in TCW, that's debatable. He appears to in fact be deliberating over what to do when Maul kneels before him, but the presence of Savage instigates him into branding him a rival (note rival.)

Regardless by that point Sidious already had Dooku who was himself a placeholder for Anakin, Maul could only have ever been another pawn, and no longer necessary to executing the Grand Plan.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The EU isn't going to conform to material in another reality, lol. SoD has no bearing on the EU.

And TCW has always had little regard for the EU, which is why I don't like conflating it with the rest of the EU.I was talking about TCW, which yes the EU did conform to yes. There are plenty of Legends publications surrounding TCW Maul.

And its not a different reality, just a different level of accuracy and validity.

Even from a Legends-only perspective, TCW Maul still exists.

That's not what I meant, I meant that Sidious taught Maul everything he knew, so its a stretch to suggest his intellect would astonish him.

And yeah I get it, TCW made the EU its cheap whore, the EU still took it though. The EU did not disregard TCW. Mother Talzin is in the frikken book.

It demonstrates that he sought out people worthy of his power and lineage, even if he remained confident he'd always be top dog. But more importantly that he had no qualms in doing so, so why wouldn't he for his first apprentice?

In Legends, Sidious never chose between Maul & Talzin, because Talzin was not her son, that's a Canon development, so saying "well in Legends" is totally irrelevant. On the other hand yeah, he planned to make her his right hand...

And the point isn't that Sidious choosing Maul over Talzin proves he's more powerful, as I also explained to Ares.

So he starting dating? Is that it?

But seriously, who? And why did he need to "see" these people to prove a being that could rival his power could or did exist?

Could be that Maul's potential, being Talzin's son, was not restricted to pure Force power. Palpatine may have eventually taught him the Dark Side magics and Sorcery he learned from Maul's Mother. Knowing the bloodline of Talzin has greater potential than Palpatine in that aspect.

1. I know TCW is included in Legends. I'm saying it disregards continuity, that's all.

2. How does TCW Maul's existence have any bearing on whether Palpatine intended for Maul to succeed him?

3. Talzin is in the frikkin' book which says Maul was never intended to succeed Sidious, yeah.

4. He did have qualms about genuine successors because he had qualms about dying. That's my point. His apprentices were merely insurances - backups.

5. The fact that Maul isn't chosen relative to Talzin in Legends just casts more doubt over Maul's actual potential in Legends.

6. lol I mean that he started noticing more powerful figures in the galaxy, taking in more powerful apprentices, etc. which would naturally raise his standard of an apprentice.

I didn't say anything about that proving that a being rivalling his power could exist. That had nothing to do with my point.

Most people seem to agree that Kanan and Ezra aren't anything special, well I'll try to make a case to prove the contrary, beginning with Kanan. When we meet Kanan in Season 1 he has been supressing his Force Power since he was roughly 14 years old (a padawan with barely a couple months of training from a Master) so at this point his abilities are limited to what he could as a padawan plus his natural growth over the years (which should be fairly restricted given the fact that he was neglecting his power). Now over the course of the first season his main struggle is accepting he's a Jedi and trying to train Ezra to the point that eventually he can actually contend with the GI to some extent (given that Ezra had to support him because he had been tortured by the GI for some time only speaks to his advantage). When going towards season 2 he's coming more and more forward as a Jedi, apparently fully accepting his powers and utilizing them when necessary while at the same time he's again facing off against several Inquisitor and logically grows stronger with each encounter (something the 5th Brother acknowledges). The general trend we see here is that the more he practices with Ezra and fights Inquisitors, he obviously becoming more powerful and skilled but at the same time he still only possess the same knowledge as when he was a 14 year old padawan so the idea that he can contend with and defeats trained Jedi Hunters (some of which were actually Jedi before falling to the Dark Side) is pretty impressive and most likely makes him above "just average". In season 3 he has been blinded by Maul and needs to see things completely different, he needs to rely purely on the Force which again makes more powerful (he has perfectly replaces his eye-sight with his senses and can even connect to beasts that he previously couldn't). Let me even give you an example of how he has become a quite powerful Jedi, in Hera's Heroes we see him redirecting a missile with the Force, now in the OCW serie from 2003 (which in general is accepted to portray Force Sensitives at the top of their abilities) Mace Windu is asthonished by the fact that Saesee Tiin redirects a missile. So yeah I sincerely doubt that Kanan, especially by the time of season 3, is just "an average Jedi".

I stopped reading after you said Kanan was 14 years old, lmao.

I said he was supressing his power since he was 14 years old lol

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. I know TCW is included in Legends. I'm saying it disregards continuity, that's all.

2. How does TCW Maul's existence have any bearing on whether Palpatine intended for Maul to succeed him?

3. Talzin is in the frikkin' book which says Maul was never intended to succeed Sidious, yeah.

4. He did have qualms about genuine successors because he had qualms about dying. That's my point. His apprentices were merely insurances - backups.

5. The fact that Maul isn't chosen relative to Talzin in Legends just casts more doubt over Maul's actual potential in Legends.

6. lol I mean that he started noticing more powerful figures in the galaxy, taking in more powerful apprentices, etc. which would naturally raise his standard of an apprentice.

I didn't say anything about that proving that a being rivalling his power could exist. That had nothing to do with my point. 1. Right. So in other words TCW disproved/retconned Sheev's BoS comments, or otherwise made them highly circumspect. Because TCW applies to Legends.

2. I was referring to BoS specifically. I don't see the purpose in considering Legends only when considering Maul holistically, Canon is simply the most accurate and contemporary window into his character.

3. OK. But it's a moot point.

4. That doesn't answer my question. Despite not wanting an actual successor, Sidious had no qualms in apprenticing beings who could rival and/or surpass him, so in first choosing an apprentice, why would he opt for anything less?

You keep returning to the fact he didn't want a successor, but continue to fail to grasp that this did not effect how he selected his apprentices. And in fact I'd add to this that neither Tenebrous nor Plagueis intended to be succeeded either, and yet they acquired apprentices who rivalled them in potential nonetheless. In short, it's a moot point.

5. Which is why I think going the Legends-only route is counterintuitive, as of now Maul is Talzin's son. It's pointless to ignore that.

6. Still not needed for Palpatine to prove that such beings could exist. His own existence proves that. As does that of his master. Not to mention all of Banite history.

I mean really? Sidious saw Anakin and was like "huh you mean I can have a strwong apprentice like meesa?" He has no reason to believe that finding a protege worthy of his own power is remotely unattainable.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Most people seem to agree that Kanan and Ezra aren't anything special, well I'll try to make a case to prove the contrary, beginning with Kanan. When we meet Kanan in Season 1 he has been supressing his Force Power since he was roughly 14 years old (a padawan with barely a couple months of training from a Master) so at this point his abilities are limited to what he could as a padawan plus his natural growth over the years (which should be fairly restricted given the fact that he was neglecting his power). Now over the course of the first season his main struggle is accepting he's a Jedi and trying to train Ezra to the point that eventually he can actually contend with the GI to some extent (given that Ezra had to support him because he had been tortured by the GI for some time only speaks to his advantage). When going towards season 2 he's coming more and more forward as a Jedi, apparently fully accepting his powers and utilizing them when necessary while at the same time he's again facing off against several Inquisitor and logically grows stronger with each encounter (something the 5th Brother acknowledges). The general trend we see here is that the more he practices with Ezra and fights Inquisitors, he obviously becoming more powerful and skilled but at the same time he still only possess the same knowledge as when he was a 14 year old padawan so the idea that he can contend with and defeats trained Jedi Hunters (some of which were actually Jedi before falling to the Dark Side) is pretty impressive and most likely makes him above "just average". In season 3 he has been blinded by Maul and needs to see things completely different, he needs to rely purely on the Force which again makes more powerful (he has perfectly replaces his eye-sight with his senses and can even connect to beasts that he previously couldn't). Let me even give you an example of how he has become a quite powerful Jedi, in Hera's Heroes we see him redirecting a missile with the Force, now in the OCW serie from 2003 (which in general is accepted to portray Force Sensitives at the top of their abilities) Mace Windu is asthonished by the fact that Saesee Tiin redirects a missile. So yeah I sincerely doubt that Kanan, especially by the time of season 3, is just "an average Jedi".

Paragraphs motherf-ucker.

Originally posted by SunRazer


5. The fact that Maul isn't chosen relative to Talzin in Legends just casts more doubt over Maul's actual potential in Legends.




Wait what? So Legends adopts TCW but not SOD? That's messed up.

Honestly I don't know why we even discuss Legends anymore when it comes to debating concepts like this in SW. Because Legends makes no sense whatsoever. It's basically just material out there that creators of new Canon can draw from. Outside of that, it's a confused continuity to say the least.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Wait what? So Legends adopts TCW but not SOD? That's messed up.

Honestly I don't know why we even discuss Legends anymore when it comes to debating concepts like this in SW. Because Legends makes no sense whatsoever. It's basically just material out there that creators of new Canon can draw from. Outside of that, it's a confused continuity to say the least.

SoD was released from after the Legends/Canon split.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
1. Right. So in other words TCW disproved/retconned Sheev's BoS comments, or otherwise made them highly circumspect. Because TCW applies to Legends.

How did it retcon anything?



Well, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be too hard to argue the case in Canon - or at least it's a lot stronger. In Legends, as I said, it's dubious, and that was my point of contention the entire time.



As far as I know, he was just looking for whoever was strongest and available. That the later ones had enough potential to rival him doesn't mean the first one does, because there's no direct relationship between any of them.



Whether Tenebrous or Plagueis intended to be succeeded at the start of their Dark Lordship is questionable, since we only know what their plans were by the end (for Tenebrous, at least). I can't remember when Plagueis gets that idea.



There's nothing counter-intuitive. I'm already on your side in Canon. I just made a remark that in Legends, it's not so obvious. And that DP itself doesn't make it obvious that Palpatine intended Maul to surpass him from the get-go.

You decided to introduce all of this other stuff that continues to deviate from my original point.



Which in no way impacts my point, which, as I'll remind you again, was simply that Palpatine's standard of apprenticeship may have risen over time as he trained more powerful disciples.

Whether Sidious believes it's possible for someone to rival his power doesn't even affect whether Maul was indeed somebody of that caliber, either.

Originally posted by SunRazer
How did it retcon anything?facepalm

Are you daft? I explained why at the start of this discussion.

Novel idea: consider Canon and Legends, at the same time!

As far as you know? Can you hit me up with your sources? Because by all accounts Sidious found Maul by accident.

And what Palpatine's later apprentices do is 1. demonstrate his lack of qualm over beings who could surpass/rival him and reflect 2. reflect kind of standard of apprentice he was looking for. No, it doesn't mean Sidious' first apprentice has to be of similar stock, but the question still remains: why wouldn't he be? So far, no good answers.

Cool. But who cares? Plagueis never tried to get rid of Sidious anyways and Tenebrous only tried to get rid of Plagueis because of a difference in philosophy, not because he felt he was becoming too powerful.

OK, but you seemed to be rather insistent on the "but in Legends!" point. I'm merely asking why anyone should care. Maul is a Canon character for Christ's sake, its totally bonkers to consider this from a Legends-only point of view, or give a damn what "facts" can be gleaned if we ignore Canon. In fact, its oxymoron, because the Legends regarding Maul are non-factual by definition. Either approach it holistically, with Canon only, or not all imo.

That said, even if we played the Legends-only card, there'd still be no getting away from TCW, which most recent EU/Legends sources were made to align to. Basically Maul is just not Talzin's son, cool. Also in 1999, Maul was just a guy with a lightsaber, the argument is really circumspect if we go that route.

Points, in general, need reasoning to support them. In which case you've failed to give a solid explanation for why his standard of apprenticeship may have increased. Which makes the point unlikely, if not illogical.

So yeah, consider your point: impacted.

It means we've no reason to believe his standards suddenly increased.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's not Tarkin, that's Dark Lord...

No, it's definitely in Tarkin though it could be in DL as well.

Maybe provide the quote, I'm seeing something to that effect but he says nothing of Vader.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
I said he was supressing his power since he was 14 years old lol

I didn't put the emphasis on the since correctly. I thought of since as a reason(i.e. A beats B since A is better) not as a measure of a time period.

Originally posted by MythLord
I didn't put the emphasis on the since correctly. I thought of since as a reason(i.e. A beats B since A is better) not as a measure of a time period.

Ohh yeah I see, well my native language isn't english so sometimes I don't recognize these type of things

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=638565

I wonder why Beni is so adamantly defending Maul as having Sidious+ potential when either way it shouldn't be relevant to a vs debate...

Or is this Beni wanting to do some weird ILS-esque scaling and say Sidious+ potential plus Maul being trained as a LEGIT SUCCESSOR plus the length of time he was trained puts him above Bane and virtually everyone before the PT era?

Or is this Beni trying to pull some weird shit and say "Maul has Sidious+ potential and a ****ton of training and experience, and Ahsoka can match him despite having only been formally apprenticed for 3 years with less quality training and possessing much less experience... AHSOKA HAS SIDIOUS++ LEVEL POTENTIAL CONFIRMED"?

LOL

Nah Beni's just discussing Maul's potential because it's interesting why Palpatine chose him and what Palpatine's goal was from his different apprentices, and what the RO2 and Banite lineage meant to him.

Not applicable at all to versus fights because:
1) He never reached said potential
2) Said potential was likely reduced massively after he got cut in 2 anyway


What I find more interesting though is Machine Vader's potential. I'm not convinced his potential didn't rival Sidious's.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Nah Beni's just discussing Maul's potential because it's interesting why Palpatine chose him and what Palpatine's goal was from his different apprentices, and what the RO2 and Banite lineage meant to him.

Not applicable at all to versus fights because:
1) He never reached said potential
2) Said potential was likely reduced massively after he got cut in 2 anyway


What I find more interesting though is Machine Vader's potential. I'm not convinced his potential didn't rival Sidious's.

Yeah, I actually believe it probably did still rival Sidious's but his mental 'issues' restricted him from reaching that potential. It's mainly because Sidious still believes that Vader can reach his potential, he didn't loose that much midi-chlorians and that even by the time of RotJ Vader still hadn't learned everything from Sidious.

Well rivalling Sidious's potential is still far off from the potential he had.

Plus I don't buy into his mental issues restricting him in Canon. I just think he's behind Palpatine in Force Mastery and knowledge, which is why he's still his inferior.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well rivalling Sidious's potential is still far off from the potential he had.

Plus I don't buy into his mental issues restricting him in Canon. I just think he's behind Palpatine in Force Mastery and knowledge, which is why he's still his inferior.

Ahh Canon, yeah probably

Fair, but frankly how much Palpatine valued Vader is another matter entirely. Again, there is every bit the possibility that he still thought he could harness the power of the Chosen One, and every bit the likelihood he'd want to keep such a hard fought asset close to him.

On the other hand much as "crippled apprentice" is of key important in the DL quote, "bait" and "vessel" are of equal if not more importance here. That rather heavily implies Palpatine was using him as a tool, with the intentions of keeping all the rewards for himself. The fact also remains that after the Death Star incident, he considered replacing him with robots.

Again, there is little doubt that Palpatine highly valued Vader as an asset, but I'd argue his perspective on Vader was straddled between the power of the Chosen One and the broken cripple he'd been left with. But this hardly means Sidious was content with the latter.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I wonder why Beni is so adamantly defending Maul as having Sidious+ potential when either way it shouldn't be relevant to a vs debate...

Or is this Beni wanting to do some weird ILS-esque scaling and say Sidious+ potential plus Maul being trained as a LEGIT SUCCESSOR plus the length of time he was trained puts him above Bane and virtually everyone before the PT era?

Or is this Beni trying to pull some weird shit and say "Maul has Sidious+ potential and a ****ton of training and experience, and Ahsoka can match him despite having only been formally apprenticed for 3 years with less quality training and possessing much less experience... AHSOKA HAS SIDIOUS++ LEVEL POTENTIAL CONFIRMED"? You'll find DMB that there's more to the Star Wars galaxy than vs debates. hmph

no rly, both

Like masturbating to Maul porn, which I presume is not the same if he doesn't have Sidious+ potential.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Are you daft? I explained why at the start of this discussion.

I'm assuming you're referring to the crime syndicate thing.

Even if it retcons that one quote, it doesn't mean that it retcons everything in the Book. Especially not because Sidious doesn't refer just to Maul but also Tyranus and Vader.



It's too bad that this isn't possible because of how much conflict there is. And because it appears that the entire holistic basis of Sidious choosing Maul as an apprentice is different in Legends and Canon.



Well, nothing happens by accident. The Force ordains all

Anyway, what I meant was that Palpatine would've been searching for somebody as powerful as possible just based on how he operates. And if you're using the example of his future apprentices, then why wouldn't he be?

"Why wouldn't he be?" is an appeal to ignorance. There's nothing establishing any relationship between Maul and Anakin, Luke or Galen. Just like Tyranus wasn't of the same stock. Until you establish a reason that Maul would belong to such a breed of Force-users, there's no point comparing.



Well, you brought up the point, so obviously you care.



What do you mean "non-factual"? They belong in different continuities. The case being relevant if we're in a Legends thread and are using Legends Maul, in which case the Canon argument doesn't make sense.

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about me trying to distinguish between Canon and Legends on the matter. They're clearly different. You're crying over how irrelevant Legends is when that has nothing to do with my point, which is simply that Legends and Canon have a different outlook on the matter. Again, we continue to deviate from my original point.



And yet the newer Legends sources offer nothing on whether or not Sidious intended for Maul to succeed him. Or even just how powerful Maul was.



How would training more powerful apprentices than Maul not make him raise his standard of apprentices? For instance, if Maul never had the power to rival or surpass him, but Anakin/Galen/Luke did, then obviously Palpatine's standards would be raised. That's just common sense.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm assuming you're referring to the crime syndicate thing.

Even if it retcons that one quote, it doesn't mean that it retcons everything in the Book. Especially not because Sidious doesn't refer just to Maul but also Tyranus and Vader.Yes I am.

And I never said it did. Ever.

Where there is conflict Canon takes precedent tbh.

Yeah, Sidious was destined to find Maul. Because Maul was that great.

Quite, or in other words, someone who could rival his power.

You're not grasping the point, the point is that logically speaking Sidious should seek out as an apprentice someone worthy of his lineage, someone who could rival his own abilities, it would be entirely in his nature, and his choices in Anakin, Luke and Galen reflect that.

So I am asking why Sidious would opt for anything less. The answer is he wouldn't, there is no reason for him to, not time, expense, fear of overthrowal, lack of conviction, contentment with second rate material. There's no reason to assume Palpatine's choice of an apprentice wouldn't be a being who could emulate his own strength.

https://media.giphy.com/media/VfqpaHAKkGvbG/giphy.gif

When did I say Legends was irrelevant? You're confused. I said its illogical to approach this from a Legends only perspective, because Maul is a Canon character.

Canon as opposed to the EU has creative control over the character, or rather their perspective is the correct one whereas the now Legends EU just followed in its lead. In other words no, Legends doesn't have a different outlook on Maul, its just misaligned (arguably) with the facts in some places. Or not, you haven't really done much to embellish on how Legends is so deviant, other than this BoS quote.

And I understand your point fine, I just think its incorrect, that's all.

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

How about you start by explaining how it would, because I'm not seeing how this is common sense at all. Palpatine training Anakin/Galen/Luke (he trained none of these people, but let's pretend) is supposed to teach Palpatine what exactly?

So what does the retcon prove? We're only interested in the part where Sidious had no intention of a successor, not the part where he says Maul is a limited being, because we know he's not.



Perhaps Sidious didn't even believe somebody could rival his power until he saw the likes of Anakin, Galen, Luke etc.

That he was going for the most powerful candidate available doesn't mean said candidate rivaled him. Just that they were good, which we all know.



Canon and Legends are completely separate and should be treated separately. There's no precedence.



My mistake about "training", I meant encountering - but we're basically discussing point 2 again, so refer to that.

Originally posted by SunRazer
So what does the retcon prove? We're only interested in the part where Sidious had no intention of a successor, not the part where he says Maul is a limited being, because we know he's not.Cool. Not sure why you brought it up then.

Deja vu? Or did I address this already?
Originally posted by Beniboybling
His own existence proves that. As does that of his master. Not to mention all of Banite history.

I mean really? Sidious saw Anakin and was like "huh you mean I can have a strwong apprentice like meesa?" He has no reason to believe that finding a protege worthy of his own power is remotely unattainable.
Oh yeah.

OK, so we are just going to go round in circles now? It couldn't have been a case for Maul being the strongest guy around, because Sidious hadn't looked around, he found Maul by accident.

It's like going into a supermarket looking for a premium pot of pasta sauce and grabbing the first you see off the shelf, you don't do that unless its exactly what your looking for.

Lol, if you want to be stubbornly close-minded about it, fine.

Orly? You mean point 2 that I addressed pages ago and you dismissed with a non-answer? Maybe take your meds.

1. You were the one who brought up TCW's retcon, not me. But let's drop the point.

2. Your "address" was an appeal to ignorance. We don't know when he realized somebody who rivaled his power could exist. This is Sidious. He's all about being the most powerful figure. Discovering Anakin could well be sort of shock that told him that there really were beings in the galaxy that could supersede him in power, in which case Maul obviously wouldn't be one of them. As I said, it's just a possibility - we have no way to know with Legends being dead now.

So let's move the point forwards. How can you quantify somebody who's "worthy of his power"? Palpatine is satisfied with what Maul can be become - but does that necessarily mean he can be as powerful as Palpatine? I know you're going to go back to the Plagueis example, but Sidious wasn't interested in ruling as equals with someone else. He desires supremacy and lordship.

For the record, Lucas seems to suggest that Maul could never match or surpass Palpatine in power.

As of right now, Kanan's a barely-above-average Jedi Master and Ezra is an above-average padawan with considerable Force potential. I still think Ezra will be roughly = Maul by the end of the season, if Filoni continues down the path he is setting up for us.

Originally posted by Petrus
As of right now, Kanan's a barely-above-average Jedi Master and Ezra is an above-average padawan with considerable Force potential. I still think Ezra will be roughly = Maul by the end of the season, if Filoni continues down the path he is setting up for us.

I would put Kanan in the sub Qui-Gon area, would that fit your description?

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
I would put Kanan in the sub Qui-Gon area, would that fit your description?

Eh, maybe, but I'd rank Qui-Gon as more skilled than an above-average master. How sub Qui-Gon are we talking about?

Originally posted by Petrus
Eh, maybe, but I'd rank Qui-Gon as more skilled than an above-average master. How sub Qui-Gon are we talking about?

I was thinking more like this:

7.9 GI
8.0 Kanan
8.3 Qui-Gon
8.8 RotS Obi-Wan

To be honest, Qui-Gon is far above your average Jedi Master (a level which is difficult to determine anyway) since he was considered 'exceptional' even among PT era Jedi.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
I was thinking more like this:

7.9 GI
8.0 Kanan
8.3 Qui-Gon
8.8 RotS Obi-Wan

To be honest, Qui-Gon is far above your average Jedi Master (a level which is difficult to determine anyway) since he was considered 'exceptional' even among PT era Jedi.

Yeah, Jinn is far above the average, for sure. That's what I mean.

I'd actually say it's more like this:

7.8: Kanan
8.0: GI
8.4: Jinn
8.8: RotS Kenobi


I think the GI's defeat at the hands of Kanan is due to Kanan pulling off a peak performance that he can't pull off on a daily or regular basis.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
7.9 GI
8.0 Kanan
8.3 Qui-Gon
8.8 RotS Obi-Wan

Kenobi should be way above any of these guys.

Originally posted by Petrus
Yeah, Jinn is far above the average, for sure. That's what I mean.

I'd actually say it's more like this:

7.8: Kanan
8.0: GI
8.4: Jinn
8.8: RotS Kenobi


I think the GI's defeat at the hands of Kanan is due to Kanan pulling off a peak performance that he can't pull off on a daily or regular basis.

Seems good, I assumed Kanan's growth since Season 1 was enough to put him above tbe GI but anyway we basically agree on this ranking.

Originally posted by ares834
Kenobi should be way above any of these guys.

Half a tier better as Qui-Gon is pretty solid tbh, he was his inferior in TPM so...

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Seems good, I assumed Kanan's growth since Season 1 was enough to put him above tbe GI but anyway we basically agree on this ranking.

Maybe he's become his equal as of S3, but I'm not entirely convinced. Anyway, yeah, it's basically the same ranking.

And yes, half a tier above someone is good enough to defeat him/her for a vast majority, at least.

Originally posted by Petrus
Maybe he's become his equal as of S3, but I'm not entirely convinced. Anyway, yeah, it's basically the same ranking.

And yes, half a tier above someone is good enough to defeat him/her for a vast majority, at least.

Agreed, it depends on his improvement in Season 3.

I'd be OK with the argument that Kenobi is .7 or .8 above TPM Jinn, but I wouldn't say he's an entire tier above. Just almost, maybe.

@Aeres There are statements out there that Qui-Gin's Kenobi's superior and that at one day Obi-Wan will surpass him. Secondly, there is no evidence which marks Obi-Wan's growth between TPM and AotC as big so going from inferior to solidly superior seems pretty fair in my opinion.

Well, then it depends on how you view the gap in power and/or skill between the different incarnations of Maul.