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Pre suit Rumlow

Who wins

Assuming Crossbones has his gear like in CA:CW. Crossbones held his own against Cap with a shield for a bit. Bane dies another horrible death.

Pre-suit Rumlow isn't really Crossbones and he has too little feats to judge this match properly. But if he's anything like top agents such as May or Ward then Rumlow wins.

Rumlow's implied skill would suggest he is pretty damn good (before being revealed as an infiltrator, he was not just simply a high ranking SHIELD agent, but part of Cap's personal strike team). But, pre-suit, he has nearly no feats. Pretty much the only feats he has is schooling Sam in H2H, and being the only person in the elevator scene, from CA:TWS, to land hits on Cap, as well as avoid some of Cap's hits.

If this is pre-Crossbones Rumlow, Bane takes him down H2H rather easily. If this is armored Crossbones from CW, he is just too much for Bane and will win.

Originally posted by DTM
If this is pre-Crossbones Rumlow, Bane takes him down H2H rather easily. If this is armored Crossbones from CW, he is just too much for Bane and will win.

I don't think Bane can take down Rumlow easily, not sure he can even take him down. All the top end SHIELD agents have better h2h skill feats than Bane, if not quite the same strength feats. Rumlow looked like a very high end agent and we can assume his skill rivals those of BW, May or Ward.

Rumlow was a close match with Falcon in a fight, who I dont think of as a world class H2H fighter. Bane beat down Batman pretty solidly, taking all of his hits, smashing through his armored form and cowl, and lifting and breaking him in half. I dont see normal Rumlow being all that close to Bane, physically or skill-wise.

Originally posted by DTM
Rumlow was a close match with Falcon in a fight, who I dont think of as a world class H2H fighter. Bane beat down Batman pretty solidly, taking all of his hits, smashing through his armored form and cowl, and lifting and breaking him in half. I dont see normal Rumlow being all that close to Bane, physically or skill-wise.

Falcon got completely beat up by Rumlow. Though we didn't see much of their fight, the ending made it clear it wasn't a close fight at all. Bane beat up a retired Batman who hasn't been fighting for years.

I didnt see it that way, Rumlow "might" have had a small lead in his fight with Falcon at the end of CW, but Sam was still up and in fighting shape when the helicarrier broke up their fight. Bane IMHO would have handled Sam in a H2H fight without too much trouble. The guy was a beast physically, with virtual superhuman strength and toughness, as well as being a highly trained member of the League Of Assassins.

This seemed fairly one-sided to me:

u4C1ROgsCZY

Well, cant comment on the CW comic, but in the movie, they were pretty evenly matched (and being a H2H fighter is not even Sams forte).

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
This seemed fairly one-sided to me:

u4C1ROgsCZY

Agreed, Rumlow had an advantage, but it wasnt a Major one to me, and Sam had already spent a while fighting as Falcon before being shot down in a dangerous manner. He was far from his full strength, where Rumlow was.

Originally posted by DTM
Agreed, Rumlow had an advantage, but it wasnt a Major one to me, and Sam had already spent a while fighting as Falcon before being shot down in a dangerous manner. He was far from his full strength, where Rumlow was.

Saying Sam was "far" from full strength is an assumption. We aren't shown anything to indicate he was seriously hurt or tired before his fight with Brock. And Rumlow had also been hunting the SHIELD agents who were trying to resist, before that fight.

And, in the comic, we only see Sam landing one punch, after the suckerpunch at the beginning (hence the mark on Brock's forehead). But, other than that, Brock was holding the advantage.

Also, remember the elevator scene from TWS. Literally none of the other guys in the elevator managed to land even one clean strike on Cap (Seriously, go check it out. After breaking loose from the proverbial dogpile, Steve blocks, dodges or parries every other attack, with the exception of some of Brock's). So, that in itself indicates he is well above average.

Its not an assumption, its pretty much factual, if youre using common sense. Falcon did quite a bit helping Cap before crashing down and then fighting Rumlow, who was at full strength then. Its pretty clear from what we saw previouslt that Sam was not in peak condition at the time of their fight, and while yes Rumlow did have the advantage, their fight wasnt a slaughter.

Bane is at peak health here, and at full strength, and he would trounce Sam there without any trouble, doing so much easier than Rumlow did, again, IMHO.

For the record, Im debating in a friendly manner here, no harshness or insulting intended on my part.

Originally posted by DTM
Its not an assumption, its pretty much factual, if youre using common sense. Falcon did quite a bit helping Cap before crashing down and then fighting Rumlow, who was at full strength then. Its pretty clear from what we saw previouslt that Sam was not in peak condition at the time of their fight, and while yes Rumlow did have the advantage, their fight wasnt a slaughter.

It is an assumption. "Far from full strength" indicates that he should be visibly seriously tired/hurt etc., which he was not shown to be. He had one mild crash (which was more of a tumble), which did not seem to affect him much. His wings were screwed because Bucky yanked one off. And he landed with a parachute. Now, yes, "not at peak" I can go along with. But he still seemed in fighting shape.

Originally posted by DTM

Bane is at peak health, and at full strength, and he would trounce Sam there without any trouble, again, IMHO.

Eh, I think Bane would beat Sam, but I don't see him "trouncing" him. Sam isn't exactly slow. He did manage to dodge a surprise metal arm blow from the Winter Soldier, in CA:CW.

Also, remember, Rumlow is a vindictive jacka$$. He was likely intentionally drawing things out, because he wanted to give Sam his "lesson in pain". Though this, I admit, is an assumption on my part, based on his personality.

On a random note... Poor Sam. He does always seem to get the short end. He gets used as a punching bag a lot, because he is often matched against people above his paygrade. Winter Soldier, Spiderman, Ant-Man etc.

Originally posted by DTM
Well, cant comment on the CW comic, but in the movie, they were pretty evenly matched (and being a H2H fighter is not even Sams forte).

Eh? Sam landed 1 blow via sucker punch. Rumlow dominated the rest. So not even at all. And again, Bane beat a retired Batman.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Eh? Sam landed 1 blow via sucker punch. Rumlow dominated the rest. So not even at all. And again, Bane beat a retired Batman.

Well, if we include the comic, 2 hits.

That and their(Bane/Baleman) fight choreography looks like total dogsh!t.

Bane beats pre-suit Rumlow

Rumlow beats Bane.

Originally posted by Robtard
Assuming Crossbones has his gear like in CA:CW. Crossbones held his own against Cap with a shield for a bit. Bane dies another horrible death. Its funny how a human character hanging with Cap is a good feat for them but not a shitty feat for Cap. IMO, if a character has no plot driven superhuman abilities then hanging with a plot driven superhuman of equal or more skill should be a low showing for the superhuman and not a good showing for the human.

In other words, a showing can be looked at in two different ways. Which way is more accurate?

Are you ever going to accept those Battlezone challenges?

Rumlow had heavy body armour, nigh-immunity to pain (he tanked an attack that even affected BP through his vibranium armour), and piston arms that amped his strength/striking power to superhuman levels (which also included a pair of retractable blades). But hey, let's pretend like he had no advantages that put him above a regular, highly skilled human. Also, Cap didn't actually have his shield. He had to toss it right at the beginning because Brock stuck a bomb on it.

Originally posted by h1a8
Its funny how a human character hanging with Cap is a good feat for them but not a shitty feat for Cap. IMO, if a character has no plot driven superhuman abilities then hanging with a plot driven superhuman of equal or more skill should be a low showing for the superhuman and not a good showing for the human.

In other words, a showing can be looked at in two different ways. Which way is more accurate?

Based on screen feats.

Rumlow is a more skilled, and a faster fighter than Bane. If an over the hill not too impressive Baleman with a bad back and bad knees can get the best of Bane then Crossbones should have no problem beating Bane to a pulp.

Originally posted by Inhuman
Based on screen feats.

Rumlow is a more skilled, and a faster fighter than Bane. If an over the hill not too impressive Baleman with a bad back and bad knees can get the best of Bane then Crossbones should have no problem beating Bane to a pulp.

The fact that he tries to act like Rumlow had no extra advantages above an un-enhanced human shows that he is either blatantly low-balling, or it lends more support to the notion that he hasn't actually watched the film in question.

Originally posted by Inhuman
Based on screen feats.

Rumlow is a more skilled, and a faster fighter than Bane. If an over the hill not too impressive Baleman with a bad back and bad knees can get the best of Bane then Crossbones should have no problem beating Bane to a pulp. That has nothing to do with what I said . Try again

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
The fact that he tries to act like Rumlow had no extra advantages above an un-enhanced human shows that he is either blatantly low-balling, or it lends more support to the notion that he hasn't actually watched the film in question. So a regular human with LESS SKILL hanging with Cap is a good feat for them or a bad showing for Cap?

Are you ever going to accept those Battlezone challenges?

Originally posted by h1a8
So a regular human with LESS SKILL hanging with Cap is a good feat for them or a bad showing for Cap?

Keep ignoring the the fact that he wasn't simply a "regular" human in that scenario. Just confirms your bias and/or ignorance.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Keep ignoring the the fact that he wasn't simply a "regular" human in that scenario. Just confirms your bias and/or ignorance.

He was. He wasn't enhanced. No SSS for him.

He had superhuman damage soak and striking power. So, no, he wasn't "regular". But keep ignoring and dismissing that. You're only making yourself look bad. Or, otherwise, how about posting a clip of a "regular" MCU human sending someone sailing through the air with a punch, or tanking one of Widow's taser darts to the neck without showing any negative effects.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
He had superhuman damage soak and striking power. So, no, he wasn't "regular". But keep ignoring and dismissing that. You're only making yourself look bad. Or, otherwise, how about posting a clip of a "regular" MCU human sending someone sailing through the air with a punch, or tanking one of Widow's taser darts to the neck without showing any negative effects.

Ya agreed here, Vault. If Crossbones from Civil War goes h2h against DKR Bane, Bane's record on KMC increases another value in the "L" column for sure.

It's obviously a lot closer if it's Winter Soldier Rumlow vs Bane: Bane could tank Rumlow's hits most likely until he gets a few swings in and does something like throw him down to the ground for a few head punches. I'd go with Bane in Rumlow WS scenario just because Rumlow only has the elevator fight and the brief Falcon tussle in WS.

Originally posted by John Murdoch
Ya agreed here, Vault. If Crossbones from Civil War goes h2h against DKR Bane, Bane's record on KMC increases another value in the "L" column for sure.

It's obviously a lot closer if it's Winter Soldier Rumlow vs Bane: Bane could tank Rumlow's hits most likely until he gets a few swings in and does something like throw him down to the ground for a few head punches. I'd go with Bane in Rumlow WS scenario just because Rumlow only has the elevator fight and the brief Falcon tussle in WS.

Yeah, I am personally not totally sold on pre-Crossbones Rumlow winning against Bane. But the one who could tank Widow's tasers and repeated hits from Cap (including multiple shots to the head), as well as send Steve airborne with strikes of his own, would be too much for Bane IMO.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Yeah, I am personally not totally sold on pre-Crossbones Rumlow winning against Bane. But the one who could tank Widow's tasers and repeated hits from Cap (including multiple shots to the head), as well as send Steve airborne with strikes of his own, would be too much for Bane IMO.

Originally posted by h1a8
So a regular human with LESS SKILL hanging with Cap is a good feat for them or a bad showing for Cap?

This is a valid question which deserves a proper answer, and the answer is this: we use the person with more consistent feats as the basis, the one we gauge off from. In this instance, Cap has far more feats so we use him as a base and compare Rumlow off him - in which case we can say it was a good feat for Rumlow.

Now if Rumlow had more feats than Cap which clearly showed him to be nothing more than average then we can say it was a bad showing for Cap. But this is not the case.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
He had superhuman damage soak and striking power. So, no, he wasn't "regular". But keep ignoring and dismissing that. You're only making yourself look bad. Or, otherwise, how about posting a clip of a "regular" MCU human sending someone sailing through the air with a punch, or tanking one of Widow's taser darts to the neck without showing any negative effects.

Prove that he had superhuman damage soak and striking power.

Originally posted by John Murdoch
Ya agreed here, Vault. If Crossbones from Civil War goes h2h against DKR Bane, Bane's record on KMC increases another value in the "L" column for sure.

It's obviously a lot closer if it's Winter Soldier Rumlow vs Bane: Bane could tank Rumlow's hits most likely until he gets a few swings in and does something like throw him down to the ground for a few head punches. I'd go with Bane in Rumlow WS scenario just because Rumlow only has the elevator fight and the brief Falcon tussle in WS.

I'd like to add that Rumlow is clearly a very high ranking SHIELD agent, and we've seen in Agents of SHIELD just how good high-end SHIELD agents can be.

Bane has a good durability showing but did he really show that je was that skilled a fighter?

Originally posted by FrothByte
This is a valid question which deserves a proper answer, and the answer is this: we use the person with more consistent feats as the basis, the one we gauge off from. In this instance, Cap has far more feats so we use him as a base and compare Rumlow off him - in which case we can say it was a good feat for Rumlow.

Now if Rumlow had more feats than Cap which clearly showed him to be nothing more than average then we can say it was a bad showing for Cap. But this is not the case.

False. Regular humans have plenty of showings. We know their limits. If a regular human hung with Superman then it's a bad showing for Superman. PIS even.

When you say regular human, you mean guys like Bane and Baleman, right?

Originally posted by h1a8
Prove that he had superhuman damage soak and striking power.

I already have. I've repeatedly referenced the feats to support my claim. I still asked you to provide a clip of an un-enhanced MCU human doing the same, to back your claim that he was just "regular". Something which you have yet to do. But hey, if you want to ignore valid screen feats, that's your problem.

Originally posted by FrothByte
This is a valid question which deserves a proper answer, and the answer is this: we use the person with more consistent feats as the basis, the one we gauge off from. In this instance, Cap has far more feats so we use him as a base and compare Rumlow off him - in which case we can say it was a good feat for Rumlow.

Now if Rumlow had more feats than Cap which clearly showed him to be nothing more than average then we can say it was a bad showing for Cap. But this is not the case.

It would be a lower-end showing for Steve, but it is still also a high-end showing for Rumlow. And that is because of Steve's other feats. He has hung with plenty of superhuman individuals, and even bested some of them, and has scores of feats quickly and easily taking out regular humans. So, Rumlow being able to hang with, considering the other information we have, is a high-end for him.

Originally posted by h1a8
False. Regular humans have plenty of showings. We know their limits. If a regular human hung with Superman then it's a bad showing for Superman. PIS even.

Why are you bringing Superman into this? Rumlow is being discussed. He has far less feats than Cap which means Cap is the bar for comparison. Unless you have some feats for Rumlow that prove he's just a regular fighter?

Originally posted by FrothByte
I'd like to add that Rumlow is clearly a very high ranking SHIELD agent, and we've seen in Agents of SHIELD just how good high-end SHIELD agents can be.

Bane has a good durability showing but did he really show that je was that skilled a fighter?

That's where I get hung up at: I have never watched Agents of SHIELD. From what I've gathered on these forums, however, then any high-tier AoS operative should be enough of a match for TDKR Bane. If Rumlow is around that level, he should win the day.

And agreed, Bane has skill and strength, but not enough to make up the difference in either attribute (let alone fighting speed and agility) against a Black Widow type. He was a brute that, in the Nolanverse, could combat Balemen's strengths: stealth, striking strength, and armored durability. Bane walked all over those 3 attributes while spouting a monologue. However, in about any other mainstream comic cinematic universe, he gets trashed. Goons like the Joker's sunglasses and jacket guy in the belfry in Batman 1989 could probably take him.

All things considered, I think Bane's durability might be enough to outlast Rumlow until he can get a few good shots in and get a fight-ending combo or backbreaker in. But that's a big 'if', and I'm inclined to say Rumlow is skilled enough to land enough hits to either KO Bane or exploit the mask weakness, in which case a KO is bound to happen sooner or later.

EDIT: Just saw your first post in the thread, Froth. Those are the AoS characters that I usually hear having an impressive list of fighting feats. So:

- If Rumlow is anything like them, he wins.
- If its Crossbones, Bane gets obliterated.
- Per Rumlow's limited pre-suit screen feats in h2h and Bane's strengths and weaknesses discussed at length, its a close fight that can go either way, IMO.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I already have. I've repeatedly referenced the feats to support my claim. I still asked you to provide a clip of an un-enhanced MCU human doing the same, to back your claim that he was just "regular". Something which you have yet to do. But hey, if you want to ignore valid screen feats, that's your problem. How? I ask you for the first time? If you posted proof before my question then simply re quote or tell me which page you posted it on.

Human flesh is not bulletproof. Cap supposedly has damaged things far above human flesh. If a normal human tanks hits from Cap then either
1. Human flesh>>>>>human flesh (illogical)
Or
2. Cap punched with less than human flesh destroying

Originally posted by h1a8
How? I ask you for the first time? If you posted proof before my question then simply re quote or tell me which page you posted it on.

Human flesh is not bulletproof. Cap supposedly has damaged things far above human flesh. If a normal human tanks hits from Cap then either
1. Human flesh>>>>>human flesh (illogical)
Or
2. Cap punched with less than human flesh destroying

This thread is only 3 pages long, are you saying that 3 pages is more than your capable of reading?

Originally posted by h1a8
How? I ask you for the first time? If you posted proof before my question then simply re quote or tell me which page you posted it on.

Human flesh is not bulletproof. Cap supposedly has damaged things far above human flesh. If a normal human tanks hits from Cap then either
1. Human flesh>>>>>human flesh (illogical)
Or
2. Cap punched with less than human flesh destroying

I mentioned some of the examples in the actual post you quoted when you asked me to "prove" it (as well as in a post before and after that). So, either you are trolling, don't even properly read the posts you quote, or are unable to actually comprehend basic English.

Also, if you had actually watched the fight in question, which I am now convinced you have not, you would have known that, beyond the enhanced damage soak, Crossbones also wore thick body armour (Which I have also mentioned in this thread before, and it really is not hard to find. This thread is only 3 pages long and I started posting about this on page 2), further enhancing his durability against Steve's hits.

Originally posted by Silent Master
This thread is only 3 pages long, are you saying that 3 pages is more than your capable of reading?

This is the exact same tactic he used to try and dodge my one question (about Cap replacing Hulk in the slamming scenario) in the Loki vs Spiderman thread.

Originally posted by John Murdoch
That's where I get hung up at: I have never watched Agents of SHIELD. From what I've gathered on these forums, however, then any high-tier AoS operative should be enough of a match for TDKR Bane. If Rumlow is around that level, he should win the day.

And agreed, Bane has skill and strength, but not enough to make up the difference in either attribute (let alone fighting speed and agility) against a Black Widow type. He was a brute that, in the Nolanverse, could combat Balemen's strengths: stealth, striking strength, and armored durability. Bane walked all over those 3 attributes while spouting a monologue. However, in about any other mainstream comic cinematic universe, he gets trashed. Goons like the Joker's sunglasses and jacket guy in the belfry in Batman 1989 could probably take him.

All things considered, I think Bane's durability might be enough to outlast Rumlow until he can get a few good shots in and get a fight-ending combo or backbreaker in. But that's a big 'if', and I'm inclined to say Rumlow is skilled enough to land enough hits to either KO Bane or exploit the mask weakness, in which case a KO is bound to happen sooner or later.

EDIT: Just saw your first post in the thread, Froth. Those are the AoS characters that I usually hear having an impressive list of fighting feats. So:

- If Rumlow is anything like them, he wins.
- If its Crossbones, Bane gets obliterated.
- Per Rumlow's limited pre-suit screen feats in h2h and Bane's strengths and weaknesses discussed at length, its a close fight that can go either way, IMO.

This is a good summary. My own personal hang up is durability. We already know Rumlow is fast. Based on how he was knocking Sam around, he hits pretty hard as well. And, considering his rank in SHIELD/HYDRA, and the levels all the higher end guys there have been portrayed as operating at, on AoS, he is very skilled (which is supported by him having a decisive edge against Sam, and being the only one out of 10 guys to tag Cap, in the elevator scene fro CA:TWS).

However, we never see him take many punches. He takes one hit from Sam, onscreen, (two, if we include the comic), but that doesn't tell us that much. And, once Cap actually got hold of him in the elevator, he put him down very quickly. So, his pre-Crossbones durability is a bit of a grey area.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
This is a good summary. My own personal hang up is durability. We already know Rumlow is fast. Based on how he was knocking Sam around, he hits pretty hard as well. And, considering his rank in SHIELD/HYDRA, and the levels all the higher end guys there have been portrayed as operating at, on AoS, he is very skilled (which is supported by him having a decisive edge against Sam, and being the only one out of 10 guys to tag Cap, in the elevator scene fro CA:TWS).

However, we never see him take many punches. He takes one hit from Sam, onscreen, (two, if we include the comic), but that doesn't tell us that much. And, once Cap actually got hold of him in the elevator, he put him down very quickly. So, his pre-Crossbones durability is a bit of a grey area.

I see h1 is back to usual stupidity

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I mentioned some of the examples in the actual post you quoted when you asked me to "prove" it (as well as in a post before and after that). So, either you are trolling, don't even properly read the posts you quote, or are unable to actually comprehend basic English.

Also, if you had actually watched the fight in question, which I am now convinced you have not, you would have known that, beyond the enhanced damage soak, Crossbones also wore thick body armour (Which I have also mentioned in this thread before, and it really is not hard to find. This thread is only 3 pages long and I started posting about this on page 2), further enhancing his durability against Steve's hits. I admit I didn't read the entire post. Apologies. You should know that I never do things like that intentionally.

I seen ALL the movies. I don't have perfect recall though. Some of you guys watch these movies and comb for feats. I don't. I just rely on memory of what stands out. It's common for humans to send people flying in fighting movies. Doesn't mean they have superhuman strength. Actually people have been sent flying in real life from kicks.

I'll look at the feats. I don't consider the taser feat as proof he can withstand a punch to the face better than a human can.

Bane and Batman is not slow and are good fighters!
Some people insist on going by visual acting speed as the actual speed the character is moving at. This is wrong. The movie DELIBERATELY wants to show us what's happening. Any trained fighter has to be faster than the average human by a large margin.

Batman in his first appearance takes out 12 thugs in 21 seconds. He has to be hella fast and skilled to do such a thing. 5 thugs or less could beat a professional fighter.

See from 2:41 to 3:02
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Here at 9:25 to 9:35 is where Nolan says he uses cut scenes to show how blindingly quick Batman is. Also the video gives the entire theory to how Batman fights.
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In that video you see that Nolan wasn't going for the aesthetically pleasing but the very effective and instinctual. People base skill off aesthetics.

Here Batman beats 4 highly trained ninja warriors. There is no way in hell Batman is slow and not skilled, especially dodging fast as hell attacks and sword swipes.
PgWCZvowEjY

Batman, while injured is powerful enough to shatter bricks.

Batman one shot several humans, especially one time when he drags an adult male with one hand and casually koes another human with a back punch.

Bane is fast too. He casually dodged Batman's strikes after purposely getting hit with them. Bane is super strong. He busted through solid concrete like it was tissue paper. Batman tanked many of his hits which says a lot to Batman's durability. Batman koing 12 thugs in 21 seconds says a lot to Batman's power. Yet Bane NO SOLD Batman's strikes.

Since you want to go off "implied" speed, then Crossbones was able to land hits on a super-soldier, someone who would be far faster than any normal human. so using your logic. CB has far better speed feats.

Originally posted by h1a8
I admit I didn't read the entire post. Apologies. You should know that I never do things like that intentionally.

I seen ALL the movies. I don't have perfect recall though. Some of you guys watch these movies and comb for feats. I don't. I just rely on memory of what stands out. It's common for humans to send people flying in fighting movies. Doesn't mean they have superhuman strength. Actually people have been sent flying in real life from kicks.

What does RL kicks have to do with anything? Or other fictional movies? This is set in the MCU, so we compare him to other MCU humans. And even if we include others, the vast majority of action heroes can't do it like Crossbones did. He sent Cap flying back 10+ feet with some strikes (you can see that visually, as well as in the amount of steps he has to give while walking to close the distance between him and Steve, after punching him). And Steve didn't tumble or roll that distance. He was actually airborne. And Crossbones punched a fist-sized crater in a cement wall (might have actually been concrete, but hard to say). Rumlow also punched a bulletpoof door off its hinges and sent it flying back into a large, metal cabinet, with enough force to move it, when going after the bioweapon he wanted. They made an explicit point of showing that the piston arms packed superhuman striking power.

Originally posted by h1a8

I'll look at the feats. I don't consider the taser feat as proof he can withstand a punch to the face better than a human can.

It's not just the feat, but the fact that he said, "I don't work like that no more", while it was happening, that shows us that he is the one whose damage soak has changed. And we visibly see him take multiple shots to the head from Cap without much trouble. It was not simply his own damage soak, but also his armour that contributed, but the bottom line is that he had all of that (and the piston arms) during his fight with Cap. Once Cap took those things away from him, it was instantly game over.

Originally posted by h1a8
Bane is super strong. He busted through solid concrete like it was tissue paper.

Lets address this misconception.
Bane is strong but not as much as you want people to think. It may seem like he busted through solid concrete in that pillar punch scene. That wasn't the case upon closer inspection. The pillar was NOT solid concrete.
Based "on the screen feat" the pillar composed more of a drywall type material, and not solid at all.


http://i.imgur.com/5LKDmxD.gif

A solid concrete pillar does not behave that way when you punch it , no matter how strong you are.
So the pillar is a pillar made out of drywall or something very similar to that material.

screen feats>speculation

We've known it was a decorative column for years, h1 exaggerating feats for the characters he likes is just slightly less common than his low-balling of feats for characters he wants to lose.

H1 has trouble with the concept of using screen feats. He thinks his opinions trump screen feats.

Originally posted by Inhuman
Lets address this misconception.
Bane is strong but not as much as you want people to think. It may seem like he busted through solid concrete in that pillar punch scene. That wasn't the case upon closer inspection. The pillar was NOT solid concrete.
Based "on the screen feat" the pillar composed more of a drywall type material, and not solid at all.


http://i.imgur.com/5LKDmxD.gif

A solid concrete pillar does not behave that way when you punch it , no matter how strong you are.
So the pillar is a pillar made out of drywall or something very similar to that material.

screen feats>speculation

Lol. Now you are trolling. It's clear that's a concrete pillar. Drywall? Wtf. In that case Cap never hit real submarine or sent anyone flying.

Originally posted by h1a8
Lol. Now you are trolling. It's clear that's a concrete pillar. Drywall? Wtf. In that case Cap never hit real submarine or sent anyone flying.

IOW, you've never heard of decorative building columns.

Bane doesn't need the pillar-punching feat to prove he's superhuman.

He's actually lifted an over two hundred pound man wearing body armour with a cape up over his head by the neck and walked with him.

There isn't a single human being alive who could manage that, barring maybe someone with bizarrely large hands and a significant height advantage. Probably not even then, considering the Thomas Inch dumbell is nearly impossible to lift even for big burly strongmen, due partly to its weight (172 pounds), but mostly because of how abnormally thick the handle is. Batman's neck is much thicker than the handle of the Thomas Inch (and the elasticity of skin wouldn't mean much when his neck is covered by some hard leathery material, I don't remember what it was made of), and Batman of course would be far heavier than the dumbell. IIRC only Mark Henry, one of the strongest men alive, has been confirmed to have lifted it over his head.

Lifting people like that isnt outside of the norm of Action starts like Arnold and Stalone. And they are not portrayed as super human in their movies.

Just watched the scene again . Its pretty much a fuqing choke slam hold with a slight walk. Wrestlers like the big show, Kane and The undertaker have done similar holds. Even if people want to argue that Banes was better because armor , the walk , blah blah blah or and any other small detail its not miles above what regular humans or actions starts have done that are not super human.

uzAWP49irho

Originally posted by h1a8
Lol. Now you are trolling. It's clear that's a concrete pillar. Drywall? Wtf. In that case Cap never hit real submarine or sent anyone flying.

That is NOT a "solid" concrete pillar. Solid concrete pillars dont behave in that way when you break a piece off by force.
Concrete pillars dont concave like that and have your arm inside of it like its hollow.

Get your ish together

Originally posted by h1a8
Lol. Now you are trolling. It's clear that's a concrete pillar. Drywall? Wtf. In that case Cap never hit real submarine or sent anyone flying.

Prove that it's concrete.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Bane doesn't need the pillar-punching feat to prove he's superhuman.

He's actually lifted an over two hundred pound man wearing body armour with a cape up over his head by the neck and walked with him.

There isn't a single human being alive who could manage that, barring maybe someone with bizarrely large hands and a significant height advantage. Probably not even then, considering the Thomas Inch dumbell is nearly impossible to lift even for big burly strongmen, due partly to its weight (172 pounds), but mostly because of how abnormally thick the handle is. Batman's neck is much thicker than the handle of the Thomas Inch (and the elasticity of skin wouldn't mean much when his neck is covered by some hard leathery material, I don't remember what it was made of), and Batman of course would be far heavier than the dumbell. IIRC only Mark Henry, one of the strongest men alive, has been confirmed to have lifted it over his head.

Batman's armor shouldn't be that heavy. Even a knight's full plate armor is only 50 lbs.

Batman's high quality kevlar weave should weigh far lighter.

Originally posted by Inhuman
Lifting people like that isnt outside of the norm of Action starts like Arnold and Stalone. And they are not portrayed as super human in their movies.

Then those action stars are superhuman. When you came up with this point in your head, did you think it had any validity? Hate to break it to you sport, but it doesn't. I don't care how their movies try to "portray" them, by feats they are much stronger than any human, and IIRC much stronger than Rumlow (does he have any superhuman feats?).

Cassandra Cain is a "normal human being", but only a total retard would try to deny her superhuman abilities.

Just watched the scene again . Its pretty much a fuqing choke slam hold with a slight walk. Wrestlers like the big show, Kane and The undertaker have done similar holds. Even if people want to argue that Banes was better because armor , the walk , blah blah blah or and any other small detail its not miles above what regular humans or actions starts have done that are not super human.

Afraid not friend. Bane held Batman into the air and walked with him with a single arm. A chokeslam, like you see on WWE, requires the use of another hand on the opponent's back or grabbing the top of their pants to perform the move, or in the case of a one-handed chokeslam, it is essentially just a hard push upward onto their opponent (where their opponent helps kick off the ground to give them momentum).

https://media.giphy.com/media/AoT2lozL8nr7W/giphy.gif

SEg9KAHJrnQ

Bane did have his hand on Batman's back at the start, but dropped it soon after.

rDuetklFtDQ

At 1:50 you see Bane's hand leave Batman's back, then he performs the feat single-handedly.



Any strongman can lift that manlet over their head with one hand, because there is nothing compromising their grip. Only one (last time I checked anyway) man has definitely been able to lift the Thomas Inch dumbell over his head, which is a less impressive feat than Bane neck lifting Batman.

eRIgxZH6APU

Meh, doesn't really matter if Bane is as strong as you say. If Rumlow fights anything like the other top SHIELD agents we've seen then Bane's strength won't stop him from getting outfought. Won't be an easy fight but Bane and Batman are too low on the skill scale compared to other movie fighters to pose much of a fight in these mvf matches.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Meh, doesn't really matter if Bane is as strong as you say. If Rumlow fights anything like the other top SHIELD agents we've seen then Bane's strength won't stop him from getting outfought. Won't be an easy fight but Bane and Batman are too low on the skill scale compared to other movie fighters to pose much of a fight in these mvf matches.

Especially since according to h1, Rumlow is far faster than Bane.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Especially since according to h1, Rumlow is far faster than Bane.

Correct. Since according to H1's implied speed logic, being able to keep up with an enhanced super soldier makes Rumlow far faster than Bane who was only keeping up with an old Batman weighed down with armor.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Prove that it's concrete.

Based on how it broke apart when struck, it was likely a faux concrete exterior.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Based on how it broke apart when struck, it was likely a faux concrete exterior.

It looked like drywall to be honest. Pure concrete doesn't tear like that.

Originally posted by FrothByte
It looked like drywall to be honest. Pure concrete doesn't tear like that.

Faux concrete isn't real concrete. It's just made to look like it. It's actually not uncommon in real life, when people want the look, but can't afford the real thing, or the real thing is impractical.

Originally posted by Inhuman
Lifting people like that isnt outside of the norm of Action starts like Arnold and Stalone. And they are not portrayed as super human in their movies.

Just watched the scene again . Its pretty much a fuqing choke slam hold with a slight walk. Wrestlers like the big show, Kane and The undertaker have done similar holds. Even if people want to argue that Banes was better because armor , the walk , blah blah blah or and any other small detail its not miles above what regular humans or actions starts have done that are not super human.

uzAWP49irho



That is NOT a "solid" concrete pillar. Solid concrete pillars dont behave in that way when you break a piece off by force.
Concrete pillars dont concave like that and have your arm inside of it like its hollow.

Get your ish together

This is a movie. Of course it's not real concrete. It's a prop. You think the actor is going to bust REAL CONCRETE? Just like Cap punches the glass in the submarine didn't act like real submarine glass. It's clear to be a concrete pillar though. Look at the pillar in the scene before Bane punches it. It's looks like solid marble like concrete. Threads like this aren't worth debating when so many will ALWAYS downplay and discredit feats and not treat both characters fairly.

PgHnsGVa3T4

It's obvious you are looking to discredit Banes feat because you painstakingly watched the scene combing for things you can discredit. When everyone watched the movie, NO ONE ever said to themselves that wasn't real concrete. We all were amazed of how powerful Bane was. All of us! How do the average person know how real concrete reacts when being busted? Almost every feat in movies can be busted using real science. A real jeep doesn't react that way when kicked (cap). I can comb every feat by Cap and discredit most.

Originally posted by h1a8
This is a movie. Of course it's not real concrete. It's a prop. You think the actor is going to bust REAL CONCRETE? Just like Cap punches the glass in the submarine didn't act like real submarine glass. It's clear to be a concrete pillar though. Look at the pillar in the scene before Bane punches it. It's looks like solid marble like concrete. Threads like this aren't worth debating when so many will ALWAYS downplay and discredit feats and not treat both characters fairly.

PgHnsGVa3T4

Looks like a decorative column to me, do you have any proof that it was meant to be real concrete?

Originally posted by h1a8
This is a movie. Of course it's not real concrete. It's a prop. You think the actor is going to bust REAL CONCRETE? Just like Cap punches the glass in the submarine didn't act like real submarine glass. It's clear to be a concrete pillar though. Look at the pillar in the scene before Bane punches it. It's looks like solid marble like concrete. Threads like this aren't worth debating when so many will ALWAYS downplay and discredit feats and not treat both characters fairly.

PgHnsGVa3T4

It's obvious you are looking to discredit Banes feat because you painstakingly watched the scene combing for things you can discredit. When everyone watched the movie, NO ONE ever said to themselves that wasn't real concrete. We all were amazed of how powerful Bane was. All of us! How do the average person know how real concrete reacts when being busted? Almost every feat in movies can be busted using real science. A real jeep doesn't react that way when kicked (cap). I can comb every feat by Cap and discredit most.

Your mistake is trying to mix the real world with movies. No one is talking about the real world or whatever props they used. What we're saying is that in the movie, based on what they showed us, Bane punched a hole through a decorative pillar. If they had wanted to make us believe is was concrete then they would have made it look like concrete. Since they made it look like faux concrete then that's what we'll assume it was unless proven otherwise.

Originally posted by Silent Master
eRIgxZH6APU Timestamp the one you believe proves whatever point you're making.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Your mistake is trying to mix the real world with movies. No one is talking about the real world or whatever props they used. What we're saying is that in the movie, based on what they showed us, Bane punched a hole through a decorative pillar. If they had wanted to make us believe is was concrete then they would have made it look like concrete. Since they made it look like faux concrete then that's what we'll assume it was unless proven otherwise.

h1 is just trying to distract you from the fact that he once again tried to claim his opinion = fact.

Originally posted by Silent Master
h1 is just trying to distract you from the fact that he once again tried to claim his opinion = fact.

He pulled this crap with the Miyagi thread. Said that his proof that the beer bottles were empty were because these were obviously prop bottles used in the movie set. Who the hell debates like this in a movie fight forum?

Originally posted by FrothByte
Meh, doesn't really matter if Bane is as strong as you say. If Rumlow fights anything like the other top SHIELD agents we've seen then Bane's strength won't stop him from getting outfought. Won't be an easy fight but Bane and Batman are too low on the skill scale compared to other movie fighters to pose much of a fight in these mvf matches. Do you have any reason to believe Rumlow can even do much to physically harm Bane?

Because it isn't just Bane that is stronger than Rumlow. Baleman is also stronger than Rumlow. A relatively green Baleman one arm curled Liam Neeson's 200+ pound fat ass with a single arm and threw him over the top of him. This is a level of strength well beyond what his build should allow (though I don't know if it's outright superhuman). Batman couldn't hurt Bane with his best hits (even in his second fight), at least until he ****ed with Bane's mask (which Rumlow will not be able to do, Batman did it using his forearm blades for leverage, Rumlow will open himself up to a serious hurting if he tries to do the same with his bare hands).

And considering Bane is much larger than Rumlow (their actors are roughly the same height, with Hardy actually being an inch shorter, but Bane was filmed to actually be a few inches taller than Christian Bale, look at near the start of the video* I posted, Bane is noticeably taller), he should have more reach, which would make it harder for Rumlow to land blows on Bane without retaliation.

I'm also frankly not sure why people think Rumlow is faster or particularly more skilled. This is a character whose best feat is getting dominated by a pained, audibly winded Cap. He landed one blow against him with a weapon. I don't see why Bane couldn't do the same.

Why are they too low on the skill scale? Because the choreography was bad? Lol, it's weird that I only see this criticism applied to the Dark Knight trilogy characters, and not characters in Star Wars, or Achilles in Troy (who is in fact an awful sword-fighter per the choreography).

Originally posted by FrothByte
being able to keep up with an enhanced super soldier While Cap was winded and likely having his muscles spasming from being electrocuted, yeah.

And he still landed one blow before being unceremoniously knocked out, lol.

I'd understand the credit you guys were giving Bane's opponent if it were Batroc, who actually did make Cap have to work for it a little bit, but Rumlow? Not really.

He doesn't get to benefit from people like Black Widow's feats.

*So I just realized that in my prior post the video of the one-handed chokeslam and of the Bane fight I timestamped didn't work properly.

First, the chokeslam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEg9KAHJrnQ

Then, the Bane fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDuetklFtDQ

Should work now.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Do you have any reason to believe Rumlow can even do much to physically harm Bane?

Because it isn't just Bane that is stronger than Rumlow. Baleman is also stronger than Rumlow. A relatively green Baleman one arm curled Liam Neeson's 200+ pound fat ass with a single arm and threw him over the top of him. This is a level of strength well beyond what his build should allow (though I don't know if it's outright superhuman). Batman couldn't hurt Bane with his best hits (even in his second fight), at least until he ****ed with Bane's mask (which Rumlow will not be able to do, Batman did it using his forearm blades for leverage, Rumlow will open himself up to a serious hurting if he tries to do the same with his bare hands).

And considering Bane is much larger than Rumlow (their actors are roughly the same height, with Hardy actually being an inch shorter, but Bane was filmed to actually be a few inches taller than Christian Bale, look at near the start of the video* I posted, Bane is noticeably taller), he should have more reach, which would make it harder for Rumlow to land blows on Bane without retaliation.

I'm also frankly not sure why people think Rumlow is faster or particularly more skilled. This is a character whose best feat is getting dominated by a pained, audibly winded Cap. He landed one blow against him with a weapon. I don't see why Bane couldn't do the same.

Why are they too low on the skill scale? Because the choreography was bad? Lol, it's weird that I only see this criticism applied to the Dark Knight trilogy characters, and not characters in Star Wars, or Achilles in Troy (who is in fact an awful sword-fighter per the choreography).

First off, Achilles had superb sword choreography in Troy. One of the best sword choreographies in cinema actually. I'm willing to debate this with you point for point if you want.

And yes, Bane and Batman are low in the skill ladder because the choreography in the TDK trilogy is just bad, which means both of them look very slow compared to other fighters. Plus their moves aren't exactly finesse as well. I mean, Bane throws a bunch of haymakers, wow. Fact is, Baleman and Bane just look slow compared to other fighters.

Now as for Rumlow, watch Agents of SHIELD to understand just how skilled high end SHIELD agents are. Even if Bane is as strong as you think he, it won't protect him from getting his limbs getting dislocated or getting caught in a chokehold or getting his bones snapped. All of which are moves that SHIELD agents have been shown to utilize with far more efficiency than Batman or Bane have ever shown to fight against.

Bane had multiple shots where he's shown smaller than Batman. I will assume his height is the same height as the actor because they never really consistently portrayed him as being much bigger. In which case size isn't an issue.

Originally posted by FrothByte
First off, Achilles had superb sword choreography in Troy. One of the best sword choreographies in cinema actually. I'm willing to debate this with you point for point if you want.

And yes, Bane and Batman are low in the skill ladder because the choreography in the TDK trilogy is just bad, which means both of them look very slow compared to other fighters. Plus their moves aren't exactly finesse as well. I mean, Bane throws a bunch of haymakers, wow. Fact is, Baleman and Bane just look slow compared to other fighters.

Now as for Rumlow, watch Agents of SHIELD to understand just how skilled high end SHIELD agents are. Even if Bane is as strong as you think he, it won't protect him from getting his limbs getting dislocated or getting caught in a chokehold or getting his bones snapped. All of which are moves that SHIELD agents have been shown to utilize with far more efficiency than Batman or Bane have ever shown to fight against.

Bane had multiple shots where he's shown smaller than Batman. I will assume his height is the same height as the actor because they never really consistently portrayed him as being much bigger. In which case size isn't an issue.

Not to mention the OP doesn't state hth only, so standard gear applies.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Not to mention the OP doesn't state hth only, so standard gear applies. So what, Rumlow gets an assault rifle, and Bane is barehanded?

Yeah then I guess he'd win in that scenario.

No but really, timestamp what you wanted me to see in the video you posted.

They both get their standard gear, I don't see the problem.

Originally posted by FrothByte
First off, Achilles had superb sword choreography in Troy. One of the best sword choreographies in cinema actually. I'm willing to debate this with you point for point if you want.

No need, I already know for a fact that swinging your blade into your opponent's blade, while looking nice, is a very ineffective way to fight with a sword. I also know that showing your back to your opponent in a fight just opens yourself up to being stabbed in the back, even though Hector didn't take advantage of Achilles doing so. I also know that doing a leaping stab with a ****ing spear against an opponent with a spear and shield is so laughably stupid (because it would be very easy to let the spear slide down your raised shield and open them up to a stab) that it was, once again, only Hector's own lack of skill that led to it working. Plus, neither (mostly Hector) really have their shield raised for much of the fight, and Achilles makes several strikes that must have been aimed at the shield. It's flynning, are you familiar with the concept?

I'm not necessarily saying the choreography is bad (it's not, it's pretty fun to watch), but it's certainly not representative of an actual skilled combatant.



Compared to who?

Not to Rumlow, that's for sure. No matter how slow the windup for Baleman's punches are (and that's the reason they do sometimes appear so slow, it's because of the wind-up), Bane easily caught a thrown punch from Batman despite being grappled, which easily puts his reflexes on the level to react to Rumlow's assault.

Don't get it twisted, I wouldn't say Bane is as fast as a film movie combatant like, say, Black Widow. But luckily Rumlow doesn't actually have any real film showings to give him such prestige.



I'm not going to watch a bad show to get feats for characters that aren't Rumlow. Stop using other people's feats for him. We've seen him beat up a guy with no notable hand to hand skill (while not looking particularly impressive doing it), and land a single ineffectual blow on a winded, wounded Captain America, before being easily bodied.



http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/Bane_(Tom_Hardy)

"Tom Hardy stands around 5'9"/5'10" (depending on the source) while Christian Bale is 6'0". Since Bane towers over Batman in height in the comics, special film techniques were used to make Hardy's stature and figure appear larger and imposing. In particular, three-inch lifts were added to Hardy's boots to make him equal in height to other tall characters."

http://metro.co.uk/2011/09/13/tom-hardy-needs-height-boosting-shoes-on-batman-the-dark-knight-rises-148479/

Originally posted by h1a8
When everyone watched the movie, NO ONE ever said to themselves that wasn't real concrete. We all were amazed of how powerful Bane was. All of us!

Wow, seriously? You actually think you speak for everyone who watched that scene?

Rumlow landed more than one blow against Cap. During their one-on-one, at the end of the elevator scene, he landed two. And he was also the only one who landed a stun baton strike earlier (he was the only one to land a hit at all, actually, unless you count people piling on Steve as a group as "hits". Also, technically, Brock's fight from Civil War is actually usable, where speed is concerned, seeing as there is no evidence that wearing heavy metal piston arms, as well as heavy body armour, somehow magically made him faster. And there is also zero evidence in the Civil War prequel comic that he was given speed enhancement during his hospital treatment, after getting squashed by the falling helicarrier.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Rumlow landed more than one blow against Cap. During their one-on-one, at the end of the elevator scene, he landed two.

Yeah you're right he did land two, good catch.



Incorrect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqIBGEcKhGs

Check 1:54, some bald dude tases him as well. In fact, he tases him for several seconds. Later Rumlow also tases him for several seconds.



I haven't seen CW but I just watched their fight scene.

So you think that the guy who was dominated by Cap with one arm was secretly fast enough to keep pace with him using two the whole time? Is that what you're saying?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Yeah you're right he did land two, good catch.



Incorrect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqIBGEcKhGs

Check 1:54, some bald dude tases him as well. In fact, he tases him for several seconds. Later Rumlow also tases him for several seconds.

I missed that one. You are right. But the notable thing is that he only managed to taser him while several people were holding him down. Out of 10 guys, Rumlow was the only one who managed to land hits while taking him on 1-on-1. And Cap was hardly in terrible shape, even after the entire fight. He still took a multi-storey drop and killed a quinjet right after that, and seemed no real worse for wear at the end of it all.

This happens very shortly after the elevator fight, and his plummet to the ground afterwards:

txDqjuqRK5s

Originally posted by NemeBro
I haven't seen CW but I just watched their fight scene.

So you think that the guy who was dominated by Cap with one arm was secretly fast enough to keep pace with him using two the whole time? Is that what you're saying?

He showed himself fast enough to dodge a hit from Cap in the elevator scene, so why not? The difference being Brock had much better durability in CW than he had in TWS (as well as the piston arms to help him in the strength department), so the hits he did take he could handle much better, causing the fight to go on longer, and giving him more opportunities to showcase his overall speed. If he took two punches to the face without his dead nerves and helmet, the fight would have ended right then and there. As I have stated, we are shown zero information at all, even in the prequel comic (where he features prominently), to suggest that Rumlow had his speed enhanced in between films.

Plus, I have already stated more than once that I am not convinced that pre-CW Crossbones could take Bane. He has virtually no durability showings of note, so we have no idea if he could take Bane's punches and keep fighting.

Originally posted by FrothByte
He pulled this crap with the Miyagi thread. Said that his proof that the beer bottles were empty were because these were obviously prop bottles used in the movie set. Who the hell debates like this in a movie fight forum?

His post is pretty ironic, considering he claims other people "downplay and discredit feats and not treat both characters fairly" when this is something he is constantly guilty of. In this very thread, he tried to downplay Cap by ignoring Rumlow's enhanced attributes for their CW fight, and then tried to compare Brock's super strong punches to RL human kicks.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
His post is pretty ironic, considering he claims other people "downplay and discredit feats and not treat both characters fairly" when this is something he is constantly guilty of. In this very thread, he tried to downplay Cap by ignoring Rumlow's enhanced attributes for their CW fight, and then tried to compare Brock's super strong punches to RL human kicks.

This is proof that you are bias and thus a horrible debater. He said I argued that the bottles were empty because they were prop bottles. This is false. My argument was that since they were empty prop bottles then they were meant to be empty.

But I don't argue that anymore. I'm more strict now. They were empty because they were multiple of them and the drinkers were drinking a fresh bottle.

If you look at the video I posted you will see the stone marble column as it is meant to be (before Bane punches it). The whole column CHANGED from true concrete and marble to a prop version so that Bane can appear to bust it.

Originally posted by h1a8
This is proof that you are bias and thus a horrible debater. He said I argued that the bottles were empty because they were prop bottles. This is false. My argument was that since they were empty prop bottles then they were meant to be empty.

But I don't argue that anymore. I'm more strict now. They were empty because they were multiple of them and the drinkers were drinking a fresh bottle.

If you look at the video I posted you will see the stone marble column as it is meant to be (before Bane punches it). The whole column CHANGED from true concrete and marble to a prop version so that Bane can appear to bust it.

This is proof that you're not very bright, and the worst debater I have encountered in a long time, seeing as I said absolutely nothing about your prop bottle argument, but was referring to a comment you made in this specific thread, which I even quoted. And, as already pointed out, faux concrete exists in RL, and is made to look exactly like the real thing.

Also, LOL at you accusing anyone on this board of being biased (not 'bias', learn to use the correct form of the word). You, who do things like only ever use your "fluctuating power levels" argument when feats of people you are arguing against are being discussed, in order to downplay them. Not to mention your antics in this thread, which I have already pointed out in the post you quoted.

Originally posted by NemeBro
No need, I already know for a fact that swinging your blade into your opponent's blade, while looking nice, is a very ineffective way to fight with a sword. I also know that showing your back to your opponent in a fight just opens yourself up to being stabbed in the back, even though Hector didn't take advantage of Achilles doing so. I also know that doing a leaping stab with a ****ing spear against an opponent with a spear and shield is so laughably stupid (because it would be very easy to let the spear slide down your raised shield and open them up to a stab) that it was, once again, only Hector's own lack of skill that led to it working. Plus, neither (mostly Hector) really have their shield raised for much of the fight, and Achilles makes several strikes that must have been aimed at the shield. It's flynning, are you familiar with the concept?

I'm not necessarily saying the choreography is bad (it's not, it's pretty fun to watch), but it's certainly not representative of an actual skilled combatant.

You're confusing good choreography and realistic choreography. I never claimed his sword skills to be realistic, I said he had one of the best sword choreographies in cinema.

But even taking realism into account, let me address your points. The reason this amount of flashy swordsmanship would be hard to do in the real world is that it is too dangerous. However, if someone was able to pull off the moves he did in a real fight and succeeded in winning, that would automatically show just how good a swordsman that person was. Which means for Achillles to actually pull off those moves and not get skewered in the process, he'd need to be extremely good - which he is.

Turning your back on your opponent is dangerous but it is not unheard of. Either you're stupid to turn your back or you're very confident that you can pull it off. Guess which one Achilles is. The fact that he can turn his back on an opponent and still not get killed is a sign, again, of how skilled he is. After all, he blocked an arrow from his back without even looking.

Now, I do HEMA, so I do have some 1st hand experience in swordfighting. First thing, keeping your shield up all the time is an easy way to tire fast. An experienced fighter will only lift it when he comes into measure (distance) of being struck. An even better fighter will only lift it to actually block (or strike or limit the opponent's openings). Lifting it without a purpose is just a waste of energy. It also makes it very hard to strike with your sword when your shield is up, especially with shields as big as these. So in short, your suggestion to always keep the shield up is something only done either in a shieldwall or by a rookie in a duel.

As for your thoughts on a jumping spear attack, deflecting a spear attack isn't made easier just because the person is jumping. You still need to time it properly, and it will also depend on how strong and precise your attacker's hit is. It's also advantageous to strike from above. The main disadvantage is that your footwork is gone and you'll be unable to change position for a second while you're airborn. That can be dangerous. Unless of course you're extremely confident in your skill, or if you can strike so hard that your opponent is knocked off balance (which is what happened). So while I agree that a jumping attack is dangerous, it only goes to show how good Achilles is.

Anyway to finish this off, it's ridiculous to say the choreography was bad because it was unrealistic. While a bit of realism is good in a movie fight, too much realism will make it boring.


Originally posted by NemeBro

Compared to who?

Not to Rumlow, that's for sure. No matter how slow the windup for Baleman's punches are (and that's the reason they do sometimes appear so slow, it's because of the wind-up), Bane easily caught a thrown punch from Batman despite being grappled, which easily puts his reflexes on the level to react to Rumlow's assault.

Don't get it twisted, I wouldn't say Bane is as fast as a film movie combatant like, say, Black Widow. But luckily Rumlow doesn't actually have any real film showings to give him such prestige.



I'm not going to watch a bad show to get feats for characters that aren't Rumlow. Stop using other people's feats for him. We've seen him beat up a guy with no notable hand to hand skill (while not looking particularly impressive doing it), and land a single ineffectual blow on a winded, wounded Captain America, before being easily bodied.



http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/Bane_(Tom_Hardy)

"Tom Hardy stands around 5'9"/5'10" (depending on the source) while Christian Bale is 6'0". Since Bane towers over Batman in height in the comics, special film techniques were used to make Hardy's stature and figure appear larger and imposing. In particular, three-inch lifts were added to Hardy's boots to make him equal in height to other tall characters."

http://metro.co.uk/2011/09/13/tom-hardy-needs-height-boosting-shoes-on-batman-the-dark-knight-rises-148479/

Vault already answered this. Rumlow (as Crossbones) kept up with Cap in Civil War. There was no mention of him getting a speed enhancement which means Rumlow keeping up with an enhanced super soldier is far more impressive than Bane keeping up with an old, out of shape Batman.

You're also exaggerating the elevator scene. Cap was was not wounded and though he was breathing hard due to exertion, he was showing no signs of being tired. . And Rumlow was able to block and dodge Cap's blows. In fact in their brief exchange, he landed the first two shots. The reason he didn't win that fight wasn't due to a skill or speed deficiency, he simply got overpowered by Cap.


Also if you watch Agents of SHIELD, you'll see that even rookie agents display better fighting skills than Batman.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
This is proof that you're not very bright, and the worst debater I have encountered in a long time, seeing as I said absolutely nothing about your prop bottle argument, but was referring to a comment you made in this specific thread, which I even quoted. And, as already pointed out, faux concrete exists in RL, and is made to look exactly like the real thing.

Also, LOL at you accusing anyone on this board of being biased (not 'bias', learn to use the correct form of the word). You, who do things like only ever use your "fluctuating power levels" argument when feats of people you are arguing against are being discussed, in order to downplay them. Not to mention your antics in this thread, which I have already pointed out in the post you quoted.

You agreed with a false assessment.

Originally posted by h1a8
You agreed with a false assessment.

Quote the words where I agreed with the content of that post relating to your prop bottle argument.

Originally posted by h1a8
If you look at the video I posted you will see the stone marble column as it is meant to be (before Bane punches it). The whole column CHANGED from true concrete and marble to a prop version so that Bane can appear to bust it.

That's the point of faux solid columns. To look like they are solid but in fact they are not. And are not made of the material they appear to be made of. Good job noticing that and describing exactly what faux decorative objects purpose is.

If Captain America picks up and the a large metal ball that it's bigger than himself in the next movie he apears in that looks like a solid metal ball by all accounts. Then after he throws it at someone it bounces around like it's made of rubber. Would you still think it's a solid metal multi ton ball based on its look, or based on the balls behavior you now know it was most likely a rubber ball painted like metal?

Legit wondering why people keep bringing in feats from Civil war Rumlow, in the OP it's Crossbones pre-suit as of Winter Soldier

Originally posted by carthage
Legit wondering why people keep bringing in feats from Civil war Rumlow, in the OP it's Crossbones pre-suit as of Winter Soldier

Because as far as we know, Rumlow never got any speed or skill enhancement as Crossbones. So him being able to keep up with Cap should translate back to his regular skill and speed as Rumlow.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Because as far as we know, Rumlow never got any speed or skill enhancement as Crossbones. So him being able to keep up with Cap should translate back to his regular skill and speed as Rumlow. I can accept this. But you are using a double standard (the bottles were empty). We actually don't know if he got an upgrade of some sort. Hell in Captain America: The winter soldier, it never said Bucky was enhanced. We assumed it due to his feats.

Anyway it's simple. It's a low showing for Cap. Although Crossbones really didn't do anything to suggest he kept up with Cap.

Originally posted by h1a8
I can accept this. But you are using a double standard (the bottles were empty). We actually don't know if he got an upgrade of some sort. Hell in Captain America: The winter soldier, it never said Bucky was enhanced. We assumed it due to his feats.

Anyway it's simple. It's a low showing for Cap. Although Crossbones really didn't do anything to suggest he kept up with Cap.

Not double standards at all, since in the elevator scene Rumlow had no issues in terms of speed and skill in keeping up with Cap. He lost because he lacked the strength and durability. So we have feats both from before and after Crossbones that his speed and skill seemed the same. Besides, what do prop bottles have to do with this?

Bucky - there was an entire flashback scene in CW where they showed how they made more Winter Soldiers and specifically showed how they were enhanced. Did you even watch the movie?

Originally posted by FrothByte
Not double standards at all, since in the elevator scene Rumlow had no issues in terms of speed and skill in keeping up with Cap. He lost because he lacked the strength and durability. So we have feats both from before and after Crossbones that his speed and skill seemed the same. Besides, what do prop bottles have to do with this?

Bucky - there was an entire flashback scene in CW where they showed how they made more Winter Soldiers and specifically showed how they were enhanced. Did you even watch the movie?


Do you really need to ask?

Hydra was shown to have started experimenting on Bucky as far back as TFA. It still allowed him to survive a several storey fall off a train, into a frozen lake, which would have killed a completely un-enhanced human. The directors of the actual film referred to Winter Soldier as a "super soldier" in the TWS director's commentary. He was again acknowledged as such, both in CW the film, and in its director's commentary. Rumlow featured in TWS, a prequel comic for Civil War, where he was one of the main characters, and CW (and, by extension, the director's commentaries for both films), yet it was never once even hinted at that he had ANY kind of speed enhancement at any point. All this information has already been supplied, more than once, across multiple threads. Anyone who is still arguing against this is being intentionally obtuse.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Not double standards at all, since in the elevator scene Rumlow had no issues in terms of speed and skill in keeping up with Cap. He lost because he lacked the strength and durability. So we have feats both from before and after Crossbones that his speed and skill seemed the same. Besides, what do prop bottles have to do with this?

Bucky - there was an entire flashback scene in CW where they showed how they made more Winter Soldiers and specifically showed how they were enhanced. Did you even watch the movie? Rumlow was severely outclassed by a one armed tasered gimped Cap. He didn't have any speed to keep up. He didn't keep up at all. Crossbones was also outclassed. I don't see why you say he hung with Cap? He took a few hits in the armored areas, that's it.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Hydra was shown to have started experimenting on Bucky as far back as TFA. It still allowed him to survive a several storey fall off a train, into a frozen lake, which would have killed a completely un-enhanced human. The directors of the actual film referred to Winter Soldier as a "super soldier" in the TWS director's commentary. He was again acknowledged as such, both in CW the film, and in its director's commentary. Rumlow featured in TWS, a prequel comic for Civil War, where he was one of the main characters, and CW (and, by extension, the director's commentaries for both films), yet it was never once even hinted at that he had ANY kind of speed enhancement at any point. All this information has already been supplied, more than once, across multiple threads. Anyone who is still arguing against this is being intentionally obtuse.

No one is arguing that he was enhanced. The argument was that in WS there was no indication of him being enhanced other than feats. Documentary isn't film and thus not canon.

Originally posted by h1a8
Rumlow was severely outclassed by a one armed tasered gimped Cap. He didn't have any speed to keep up. He didn't keep up at all. Crossbones was also outclassed. I don't see why you say he hung with Cap? He took a few hits in the armored areas, that's it.

One day you really have to start watching these movies before you debate about them. Trust me, it will help stop making you look foolish.

Watch the end fight in the elevator between Cap and Rumlow. Cap had both of his hands available. Rumlow dodges a punch from Cap and blocks another. Rumlow is able to taser Cap twice before he gets overpowered and thrown to the ceiling. But the fact that Rumlow was actually able to beat Cap to the punch twice in a row shows just how good his reflexes and skills are.

Originally posted by h1a8
No one is arguing that he was enhanced. The argument was that in WS there was no indication of him being enhanced other than feats. Documentary isn't film and thus not canon.

Only if you ignore the scene from TFA where Cap finds Bucky strapped to an experimentation table, in a HYDRA base.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Only if you ignore the scene from TFA where Cap finds Bucky strapped to an experimentation table, in a HYDRA base. There is no evidence that they did anything. Bucky wasn't shown to be enhanced right after that. He was the same.

Originally posted by FrothByte
One day you really have to start watching these movies before you debate about them. Trust me, it will help stop making you look foolish.

Watch the end fight in the elevator between Cap and Rumlow. Cap had both of his hands available. Rumlow dodges a punch from Cap and blocks another. Rumlow is able to taser Cap twice before he gets overpowered and thrown to the ceiling. But the fact that Rumlow was actually able to beat Cap to the punch twice in a row shows just how good his reflexes and skills are. No one watches these scenes critically for feats to argue except fanboys. You obviously rewatched the scene to find things. I saw the movie but use my impressions as my memory.

Anyway, dodging or blocking a punch from Cap isn't a feat that proves you are enhanced. Any decent human fighter can do that. It takes less than one third of the speed of a punch to block it. Bottom line: Rum didn't appear beyond an ordinary human in that scene. Impressions are everything in storytelling.

Originally posted by h1a8
No one watches these scenes critically for feats to argue except fanboys. You obviously rewatched the scene to find things. I saw the movie but use my impressions as my memory.

Anyway, dodging or blocking a punch from Cap isn't a feat that proves you are enhanced. Any decent human fighter can do that. It takes less than one third of the speed of a punch to block it. Bottom line: Rum didn't appear beyond an ordinary human in that scene. Impressions are everything in storytelling.

While it's true that we all don't remember the movies crystal clear, most of us will review a scene before making such a strong statement like this:



It's just bad debating tactics that are easily disproved which just makes you look silly.

Considering that Cap has enhanced speed and reflexes, and considering that he pretty much finishes every normal human opponent he's faced in one or two hits, being able to beat him to the punch twice is a huge accomplishment for an unenhanced human. This should be common sense.

Also, lol at using less than a third of a punch's speed to block it. I see you've never actually tried to block a proper punch. There's a reason why boxers keep their hands up all the time... because it's ridiculously hard to block a punch. Easier to just keep your hands up as constant defense.

Originally posted by h1a8
There is no evidence that they did anything. Bucky wasn't shown to be enhanced right after that. He was the same.

He survived a drop that would have killed a regular human at the end of TFA. The sheer fact that he was still alive in TWS is a clear indication that they did something to him, even then.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Considering that Cap has enhanced speed and reflexes, and considering that he pretty much finishes every normal human opponent he's faced in one or two hits, being able to beat him to the punch twice is a huge accomplishment for an unenhanced human. This should be common sense.

How quickly Cap or Bucky has taken out other human opponents doesn't matter to H1. He wants to judge them based on how long elite humans last against them, while basing Baleman's (and, by extension, Bane's) skill and speed on how he handles random fodder, while ignoring how people like Ra's (a non-fodder opponent) performed against him.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
How quickly Cap or Bucky has taken out other human opponents doesn't matter to H1. He wants to judge them based on how long elite humans last against them, while basing Baleman's (and, by extension, Bane's) skill and speed on how he handles random fodder, while ignoring how people like Ra's (a non-fodder opponent) performed against him.

Even Joker gave Batman a hard time. And I've pointed this out to him multiple times but he keeps ignoring it.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
He survived a drop that would have killed a regular human at the end of TFA. The sheer fact that he was still alive in TWS is a clear indication that they did something to him, even then. I disagree. They obviously found him a little bit after he plunged into the water. They could have did something then.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
How quickly Cap or Bucky has taken out other human opponents doesn't matter to H1. He wants to judge them based on how long elite humans last against them, while basing Baleman's (and, by extension, Bane's) skill and speed on how he handles random fodder, while ignoring how people like Ra's (a non-fodder opponent) performed against him. Batman is elite so my comparison is fair. My point is you guys are wanking WA and Cap far beyond the truth of things.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Even Joker gave Batman a hard time. And I've pointed this out to him multiple times but he keeps ignoring it. A child could give Batman or Cap a hard time if there is a plot device. Doesn't take anything away from Batman or Cap. Joker couldn't last a hit second in a straight h2h fight against Batman.

Just like Batman or Bane wouldn't last two seconds in a straight hand-to-hand fight against Winter Soldier or Captain America.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Just like Batman or Bane wouldn't last two seconds in a straight hand-to-hand fight against Winter Soldier or Captain America.

Batman would last longer than Batroc against Cap and much longer against WS. Bane could beat WS but not Cap.

No he wouldn't and either Cap or WS could solo Batman and Bane.

Originally posted by h1a8
A child could give Batman or Cap a hard time if there is a plot device. Doesn't take anything away from Batman or Cap. Joker couldn't last a hit second in a straight h2h fight against Batman.

Ah, so now it's plot device. Don't you ever get embarrassed by how often you need to come up with these excuses?

Originally posted by h1a8
I disagree. They obviously found him a little bit after he plunged into the water. They could have did something then.

Prove it. Should be easy, seeing as you said it's "obvious".

Originally posted by h1a8
Batman is elite so my comparison is fair. My point is you guys are wanking WA and Cap far beyond the truth of things.

That statement is not about Batman, Cap or Bucky. It's about their opponents, and how you are trying to compare featless fodder to people like Black Widow, while ignoring how people of actual proven skill did against him. No one is wanking anything. You're the one blatantly trying to downplay things. A fair comparison would be to look at how Ra's did against Baleman vs how Black Widow did against WS. So, no, your comparison is not fair at all.

Originally posted by h1a8
Batman would last longer than Batroc against Cap and much longer against WS. Bane could beat WS but not Cap.

funny.. really funny...

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Prove it. Should be easy, seeing as you said it's "obvious".



That statement is not about Batman, Cap or Bucky. It's about their opponents, and how you are trying to compare featless fodder to people like Black Widow, while ignoring how people of actual proven skill did against him. No one is wanking anything. You're the one blatantly trying to downplay things. A fair comparison would be to look at how Ra's did against Baleman vs how Black Widow did against WS. So, no, your comparison is not fair at all.

He killed Tony's parents and did missions far before they found Cap. Thus they found him a little after he plunged.

You misunderstand. I'm comparing shield agents to Batman and Bane. They were able to dodge WS and hit him. I'm not comparing fodder to BW. In all honesty, we don't know how long she will last against WS in straight h2h without doing a silly leg grab.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Ah, so now it's plot device. Don't you ever get embarrassed by how often you need to come up with these excuses? Its true though. Also there is no evidence that Joker even hurt Batman at all.

Originally posted by Silent Master
No he wouldn't and either Cap or WS could solo Batman and Bane. Cap can but WS can't necessarily beat Bane in h2h.

Originally posted by h1a8
Cap can but WS can't necessarily beat Bane in h2h.

Sure he would and he'd do it rather easily.

Originally posted by h1a8
He killed Tony's parents and did missions far before they found Cap. Thus they found him a little after he plunged.

That's not proof at all. He killed Tony's parents decades after WW2. Again, this is something that is made clear in CA:CW. They could have found him a day later, or a week later, or even a month later, and it would have made little difference to his overall Hydra career. So, what you said means nothing.

Originally posted by h1a8

You misunderstand. I'm comparing shield agents to Batman and Bane. They were able to dodge WS and hit him. I'm not comparing fodder to BW. In all honesty, we don't know how long she will last against WS in straight h2h without doing a silly leg grab.

You have made this claim before (without backing it), and I have addressed it before. She and Agent 13 started with pure H2H (knee, kicks and groin strike). It had no notable effect. And moves like the one she used on him are moves she has used throughout her entire MCU career (and, in this instance, combined it with elbow strikes to the head). That's how she fights. But, hey, prove she would have done better if she had adopted a fighting style that contradicts how she always fights.

Originally posted by h1a8
Its true though. Also there is no evidence that Joker even hurt Batman at all.

Well if that's the case then I can also say that Tony Stark, Black Widow and Agent 13 landing hits on WS were all just plot devices as well.

Batman taking out those 21 thugs you keep mentioning is also just a plot device.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Well if that's the case then I can also say that Tony Stark, Black Widow and Agent 13 landing hits on WS were all just plot devices as well.

Batman taking out those 21 thugs you keep mentioning is also just a plot device. You don't know what a plot device is.

Originally posted by h1a8
You don't know what a plot device is.

Oh but I do. You seem to think it means an excuse for when Batman gets beaten up.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
That's not proof at all. He killed Tony's parents decades after WW2. Again, this is something that is made clear in CA:CW. They could have found him a day later, or a week later, or even a month later, and it would have made little difference to his overall Hydra career. So, what you said means nothing.



You have made this claim before (without backing it), and I have addressed it before. She and Agent 13 started with pure H2H (knee, kicks and groin strike). It had no notable effect. And moves like the one she used on him are moves she has used throughout her entire MCU career (and, in this instance, combined it with elbow strikes to the head). That's how she fights. But, hey, prove she would have done better if she had adopted a fighting style that contradicts how she always fights. CW explained and showed how they created them all. He didn't have a metal arm when he went into the water.
This was after they completed him.

I'm not talking about strike power. I'm talking about reflexes and attack speed.
Humans had the reflexes and speed to dodge and hit him. So It's not impossible for a human to do as you were implying.

She doesn't do that all the time. She took out multiple people without doing that silly shit.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Oh but I do. You seem to think it means an excuse for when Batman gets beaten up. The plot device was "dogs". In a straight fight, such things don't exist.

Originally posted by h1a8
The plot device was "dogs". In a straight fight, such things don't exist.

Oh, you mean a plot device like "hand armor that shoots a pulse blast" like Tony used on WS? Funny how you keep using that scene to depict that WS can get hit by normal humans yet never blamed plot device.

Double standard much?

Originally posted by FrothByte
Oh, you mean a plot device like "hand armor that shoots a pulse blast" like Tony used on WS? Funny how you keep using that scene to depict that WS can get hit by normal humans yet never blamed plot device.

Double standard much?

I never referenced that scene as WS getting hit by humans.

Originally posted by h1a8
CW explained and showed how they created them all. He didn't have a metal arm when he went into the water.
This was after they completed him.

No shit he didn't have the metal arm then. His real one was still intact at that point. None of the other super soldiers they created had metal limbs. Which means he likely damaged it severely at some point (likely during the fall), hence why it was replaced. So, again, your statements prove nothing, and provide zero evidence of a time line as to when they found him after his fall.


Originally posted by h1a8

I'm not talking about strike power. I'm talking about reflexes and attack speed.
Humans had the reflexes and speed to dodge and hit him. So It's not impossible for a human to do as you were implying.

She doesn't do that all the time. She took out multiple people without doing that silly shit.

Then, like I said, prove she could have done better while fighting differently. Saying it's "not impossible" is not proof of anything. She has pulled moves like that several times during her MCU career, and virtually always successfully. But keep labeling techniques that Black Widow has repeatedly utilised (with positive end results) as "silly shit".

Just to expand on my point, a very small number of exceptional humans have shown the ability to briefly dodge and hit him. None of them have shown any sign that they can do it over an extended period of time. People like Captain America and Black Panther have also dodged some of his hits, but he has also landed plenty of hits on both of them. And, unlike Cap and T'Challa, those humans don't have the enhanced strength, durability and stamina to suggest they can maintain that kind of fight against him. Furthermore, it's also "not impossible" that Winter Soldier could land a metal arm haymaker right to BW's face, early in a fight, and kill her. So, "not impossible" What Ifs don't mean anything.

Originally posted by h1a8
I never referenced that scene as WS getting hit by humans.

Oh yes you did. You kept mentioning how Tony Stark was able to land hits on WS as proof that regular humans have no trouble hitting WS. Lie some more why don't you.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Oh yes you did. You kept mentioning how Tony Stark was able to land hits on WS as proof that regular humans have no trouble hitting WS. Lie some more why don't you. No I didn't. Tony never hit WS as far as I know. I referenced the Tony scene as evidence that a human can tank WS hits without being koed. The other fighter(s) managed to tag WS.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
No shit he didn't have the metal arm then. His real one was still intact at that point. None of the other super soldiers they created had metal limbs. Which means he likely damaged it severely at some point (likely during the fall), hence why it was replaced. So, again, your statements prove nothing, and provide zero evidence of a time line as to when they found him after his fall.




Then, like I said, prove she could have done better while fighting differently. Saying it's "not impossible" is not proof of anything. She has pulled moves like that several times during her MCU career, and virtually always successfully. But keep labeling techniques that Black Widow has repeatedly utilised (with positive end results) as "silly shit".

My point is that my point is just as valid as yours. You don't have any proof that they enhanced him then. His physical performance was no different.

We don't know how well she would do but we can't judge how well she would do based off a silly leg grab failing.

Originally posted by h1a8
No I didn't. Tony never hit WS as far as I know. I referenced the Tony scene as evidence that a human can tank WS hits without being koed. The other fighter(s) managed to tag WS.

All you've proven is that Tony has better durability than Bane.

Originally posted by Silent Master
All you've proven is that Tony has better durability than Bane.

Tony has normal and average human durability. Nothing more.

Originally posted by h1a8
Tony has normal and average human durability. Nothing more.

Then Bane and Baleman must have below average durability as neither of then has a durability feat on par with taking a hit from a super-soldier.

Originally posted by h1a8
My point is that my point is just as valid as yours. You don't have any proof that they enhanced him then. His physical performance was no different.

Except I actually referenced A. Him being shown in the lab. B. Him surviving a fall that would have killed a regular person. So, I made a claim based on screen evidence. You made a claim based on your opinion of what happened after, and then failed to provide any evidence in support of the time line you constructed. So, no, your point is not as valid as mine.

Originally posted by h1a8

We don't know how well she would do but we can't judge how well she would do based off a silly leg grab failing.

Again, trying to downplay moves she uses frequently and effectively as "silly" is just pathetic on your part. We go by what screen evidence provides us. Not by what you like to imagine could happen otherwise. And I have already provided other reasoning as to why she more than likely would not last very long. Points you completely failed to address.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Then Bane and Baleman must have below average durability as neither of then has a durability feat on par with taking a hit from a super-soldier. Bane has phenomenal durability due to him no selling Batman's haymakers. Tony was hurt badly by WS but wasn't koed. This is a huge difference.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Except I actually referenced A. Him being shown in the lab. B. Him surviving a fall that would have killed a regular person. So, I made a claim based on screen evidence. You made a claim based on your opinion of what happened after, and then failed to provide any evidence in support of the time line you constructed. So, no, your point is not as valid as mine.



Again, trying to downplay moves she uses frequently and effectively as "silly" is just pathetic on your part. We go by what screen evidence provides us. Not by what you like to imagine could happen otherwise. And I have already provided other reasoning as to why she more than likely would not last very long. Points you completely failed to address. I disagree that the fall would have killed a normal person. He landed in water.

I'm not claiming anything but giving alternative possibilities of what is the case. The killer of your theory is that Bucky wasn't enhanced when he got rescued. He operated normally. The writer's intent is clear.

The move is silly. That shit doesn't work on professional fighters. We can agree to disagree. I'm a MA and my opinion is valid on the matter.

Originally posted by h1a8
I disagree that the fall would have killed a normal person. He landed in water.


He fell several stories in height and there was a frozen river at the bottom. Even Cap was convinced that he died from the drop, and he actually witnessed it.

Originally posted by h1a8

I'm not claiming anything but giving alternative possibilities of what is the case. The killer of your theory is that Bucky wasn't enhanced when he got rescued. He operated normally. The writer's intent is clear.

Your alternative possibilities mean nothing without proof. And I never said he was fully WS back then. I said they had started experimenting on him. And I see you are again trying to pass off your own opinion as writer's intent.

Originally posted by h1a8

The move is silly. That shit doesn't work on professional fighters. We can agree to disagree. I'm a MA and my opinion is valid on the matter.

I have more than a decade's worth of martial arts experience myself. What happens in RL martial arts is completely irrelevant to what goes on in the movies. She has been shown to use those kinds of moves successfully in a multitude of fights, regardless of how impractical they are in the real world. Characters like Captain America and Daredevil also often use certain types of kicks, flips etc. that are highly impractical in a real fight, but with great success in their onscreen fights. The effectiveness of how it is portrayed onscreen does not change because of RL fighting.

They explain Zola was experimenting on Bucky when Cap found him. That's how he survived the fall and only lost his arm.

Even if the river isn't frozen, after a fair few metres water can be like concrete. It wasn't a soft landing either way.