The Most Powerful Force-User Behind Luke, Sidious, Valkorion, Yoda, Plagueis, Caedus

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Geistalt
...and, for all the Kun-wankers, Exar.

Geistalt
And Nihilus, ofc.

JKBart
3 of the guys you've posted are totally impossible to compare lol

Still, I would put Starkiller, Durron, Talzin, Vergere and Krayt above these 3, not mentioning Revan though.

UCanShootMyNova
Krayt.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Geistalt
Luke, Sidious, Valkorion, Yoda, Plagueis, Caedus, and Exar Kun

Erm... Sarasu Taalon and Mother Talzin, for starters.

UCanShootMyNova
I was going to say Taalon but I figured he wouldn't count considering we weren't including people like the Ones.

SunRazer
Canon Talzin was weaker than Canon Sidious, who probably isn't as powerful as those names in the OP. Legends Talzin has nothing to her credit that puts her up there with those people, IMO.

Taalon was only that powerful with the amp.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by SunRazer
Taalon was only that powerful with the amp.

Yeah, that's about as retarded as saying Abeloth shouldn't be included because she's only powerful with amps lol.

Geistalt
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yeah, that's about as retarded as saying Abeloth shouldn't be included because she's only powerful with amps lol. Then why didn't you mention her?

SunRazer
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yeah, that's about as retarded as saying Abeloth shouldn't be included because she's only powerful with amps lol.

That's why she wasn't mentioned, lol. Besides, she was a totally different character before dipping in the Pool and drinking from the Font. She didn't even have powers. That's somewhat different to someone already having powers and growing more powerful after falling into the Pool.

Geistalt
Originally posted by SunRazer
Besides, she was a totally different character before dipping in the Pool and drinking from the Font. She didn't even have powers. Yeah; she did (she was featless, tho).

Talzin isn't a natural Force-user, btw.


And Tenebrous sacrificed his clairvoyance to become immortal.

Geistalt
In case anyone cares to know why I consider Tenebrous weaker than Venamis.

UCanShootMyNova
Nope.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by SunRazer
That's why she wasn't mentioned, lol. Besides, she was a totally different character before dipping in the Pool and drinking from the Font. She didn't even have powers. That's somewhat different to someone already having powers and growing more powerful after falling into the Pool.

No, it's not different, and she wasn't mentioned because she's the obvious answer, not because she isn't a natural force user.

UCanShootMyNova
Wouldn't Taalon also be an obvious answer?

Geistalt
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Wouldn't Taalon also be an obvious answer? Oh, and Valley!Jerec was omniscient.

SunRazer
Originally posted by NewGuy01
No, it's not different, and she wasn't mentioned because she's the obvious answer, not because she isn't a natural force user.

Yes, that's another reason. Doesn't change the point, though. Might as well have Bane on his nexuses (not that he makes the list with them anyway).

NewGuy01
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Wouldn't Taalon also be an obvious answer?

Nah, he's mad forgettable.



This might be the dumbest thing I've heard all week. Regardless of how he obtained his power, it's still his power and isn't dependent on external circumstances. If Bane's fat ass swallowed a nexus and carried it around in his gullet for the rest of his life, maybe that would be comparable. Do you contend that we shouldn't include Valkorion, either?

Azronger
Tenebrous, definitely.

SunRazer
Originally posted by NewGuy01
This might be the dumbest thing I've heard all week. Regardless of how he obtained his power, it's still his power and isn't dependent on external circumstances. If Bane's fat ass swallowed a nexus and carried it around in his gullet for the rest of his life, maybe that would be comparable. Do you contend that we shouldn't include Valkorion, either?

True, I don't know what I was saying before, actually.

And yes, we shouldn't include Valkorion smile

Ursumeles
Originally posted by JKBart
3 of the guys you've posted are totally impossible to compare lol

Still, I would put Starkiller, Durron, Talzin, Vergere and Krayt above these 3, not mentioning Revan though.
Vergere?

NewGuy01
Vergere is a beast.

Rockydonovang
kyp, jaina, starkiller ect.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Vergere is a beast.
I know. But to put her that ****ing high...

Deronn_solo
Revan handily out of these choices.

Edit: Both Nihilus and Krayt are > Caedus, btw.

Ursumeles
Among them, Tenebrous. Guys like UnuThul are above him, tho.
1. Why is Caedus liated among Luke, Sheev, Plaggy and co.? Not sure if he's even above Revan and Tene', or Krayt. Why isn't Krayt listed btw?

Beniboybling
shit poll

Selenial
Originally posted by SunRazer
Canon Talzin was weaker than Canon Sidious, who probably isn't as powerful as those names in the OP. Legends Talzin has nothing to her credit that puts her up there with those people, IMO.

Taalon was only that powerful with the amp.

Interesting distinction with TCW and Canon/Legends. It always used to take Legends into account, so I've always treated Talzin vs Sidious as existing in both realms, I know it's odd, but I just disagree with the start of the series existing in Legends and canon (which it should) but not the second half of the series.

Although if you treat Canon the way you do, I agree, Talzin won't make it. Shows better mastery than almost every other force user in history, but there's few displays of raw power, that's not really her thing...

Selenial
Originally posted by Beniboybling
shit poll

Emperordmb
It's weird how Abeloth and Vitiate get counted for permanent amps that change them on a fundamental level... but Taalon's where we draw the line for some reason.

Nephthys
The thread says behind these guys.....

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Nephthys
The thread says behind these guys.....
Well yeah, but some people think Taalon is beneath these guys for some reason, but don't think he counts on such a list because it's "him with an amp" even though they're fine with Vitiate.

ILS
Clearly there's a shit-ton of wiggle room between Luke, Sidious, Yoda type fighters, and Caedus, that isn't present from the line up given. That makes this thread kind of problematic.

Anyway, in addition to the ones mentioned in this thread already, we should perhaps include some of the Rule of Two Sith Lords between Bane and Plagueis we have information on. Including their implicit power, many of them just had incredibly unique abilities that would leave most normal Force practitioners pissing themselves.

nfactor1995
Well Revan is more powerful than Caedus so...

ILS
Originally posted by nfactor1995
Well Revan is more powerful than Caedus so... That a fact?

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Well yeah, but some people think Taalon is beneath these guys for some reason, but don't think he counts on such a list because it's "him with an amp" even though they're fine with Vitiate.
Well, y'know that I usually rank Taalon as entity
Anyway, not sure if Jacen is really in the Top 10 of the non-entities, Force-Wise. If he is, he's at the end of them.

hutchy1345
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Well, y'know that I usually rank Taalon as entity
Anyway, not sure if Jacen is really in the Top 10 of the non-entities, Force-Wise. If he is, he's at the end of them.

He is

Ursumeles
Originally posted by hutchy1345
He is
With Yoda, Plagueis, Sidious, Vitiate, Luke, Tenebrous, possibly some other Banites, UnuThul, Nyax, Anakin, Krayt, Revan, Nihlius not necessarily.

hutchy1345
I guess you have a point
If tenebrous is in it tho so should caedus

Ursumeles
Even without Tenebrous, we have 10+(despite the ones I mentioned also Exar and Kyp) guys who could be above Jacen.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Behind Luke, Sidious and Yoda, hmm the ones.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Behind Luke, Sidious and Yoda, hmm the ones.
no expression

Azronger
Tenebrous without a doubt, although he is above some of the guys mentioned in the title.

Geistalt
Is there any evidence that Tenebrous could ragdoll the Hero of Tython, 4 tech-users (2 of which were Dark-Council-tier combatants), the Barsen'thor or Lana Beniko, and 2 >Senya Force-users all at once?

While telekinetically dual-wielding 2 other lightsabers?

And simultaneously disintegrate 8 stone pillars, each more than 6 times as tall as the average human?

Geistalt
And if there is, do you believe he could replicate pre-prime Revan's ability to (much like Vaylin) shred through durasteel doors like paper?

Azronger
Tenebrous is more powerful than a being who can tear a hole in the fabric of the Force, and is relativistic to a prime Plagueis who is more powerful than Valkorion. Revan's feats are child's play for him.

Geistalt
Fvck; I kind of went off the rails there. They were each about 5 times as tall as the average person.

And, of course, he was still no match for Valkoriate.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Azronger
Tenebrous is more powerful than a being who can tear a hole in the fabric of the Force, and is relativistic to a prime Plagueis who is more powerful than Valkorion. Revan's feats are child's play for him.
Revan > Tenebrous.

Azronger
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan > Tenebrous.

No.

Geistalt
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan > Tenebrous. Originally posted by Azronger
Yes. fixed

Rockydonovang
yup, being below sub plagueis dudes is better than being a sub plageuis dude
revan>tenebrous

Geistalt
This is why I don't enjoy ranking Tenebrous. Holistics without feats amount to nothing.

SunRazer
Enough with the "Tenebrous has no feats" already.

DarthAnt66
*Tenebrous has no impressive feats.

thumb up

SunRazer
Sounds like something that someone on Dr. Phil would say.

DarthAnt66
You've backed out of debates before on Tenebrous vs Revan because of the lack / patheticness of his feats. erm

SunRazer
Not at all. And you've repeatedly ran away from Tenebrous debates because your lowballing was shit. smile

His Barrier, Speed and Sense feats are better than Revan's. His scaling is better, and through scaling he also gets better feats than Revan in Concealment, Lightning, etc. You know I don't take Revan's asteroid feat for TK. Tenebrous being able to support the collapse of layer after layer of mine ceiling, with a single layer being enough to crush his ship, is probably better than any of Revan's TK feats.

DarthAnt66
Lies. However, now that you're willing, are you up to debate it, then?

To add some spice, loser has to quit Star Wars debating on KMC and CV via surrendering their password to the other.

SunRazer
laughing out loud

Just address the points and stop issuing silly ultimatums. This is a debating forum, not a game of life and death.

DarthAnt66
Afraid? erm

SunRazer
That you'll never address my points, yeah. Just debate.

DarthAnt66
You agree that the loser has to surrender all rights, then?

I'm not interested in a debate that gets no where like vs The_Ellimist. When I win, I want it some reward - this can be it.

SunRazer
I'm agreeing to nothing except you addressing my points. Just do it here like a normal person.

Seriously, debate the points and stop being some petty glory-seeker. You seriously need to be on Dr. Phil.

DarthAnt66
Not interested unless you're willing to give it your all.

Have some confidence in yourself. erm

SunRazer
That doesn't mean I need to sacrifice my account, lmfao. What is this, some medieval trial by ordeal? **** off, will you? Just debate the point.

Off to lunch now. When I get back, if you've replied, I expect it to be an address to my points, not more petty teenage shows of bravado. smile

DarthAnt66
So you think you'd lose? If you have confidence in Tenebrous, you'd champion him like I am Revan now. It seems you just want to waste my time, throw some pointless arguments, and run off.

SunRazer
I don't plan on running off (which you did last time we had a Tenebrous debate, IIRC). I intend on continuing the debate till it ends, I just don't believe in making myself a martyr out of a hobby of fiction debating, nor you doing the same.

Seriously, you probably could've responded to my argument by now.

DarthAnt66
No you don't. If you would debate until it ends, you would accept the conditions. You want a means to escape, and I'm not allowing it.

SunRazer

SunRazer
Terrible baiting, by the way. Going from "let's spice it up" to "compulsory conditions", lmfao. You're a shit troll, Ant. Shit.

DarthAnt66
You already conceded Tenebrous' inferiority by refusing to debate me. Let the record show not only am I willing to debate, but I'm willing to throw down all the cards for the debate. If you can't handle that, I'll find someone else willing to champion Tenebrous. Maybe one who I don't expect to one-shot with the first post?

SunRazer
Right, so that's a concession on your part. So far, you haven't even addressed a single point relevant to the debate, but have instead attacked users and gone on Quanchi-esque rants about manliness. Do you think putting your KMC account on the line is going to impress your girlfriend? laughing out loud

I already said I was willing to debate to the conclusion of the debate, and here you are trying to stipulate conditions that you know I won't agree with to make me look like I'm running away, when in reality that's cover-up for the fact that you can't respond to any of my points. laughing out loud

Your taunts are also invalid until you start debating. That said, you've forfeited the chance. You've officially conceded to me. Now **** off.

DarthAnt66
Is anyone up for a Tenebrous vs Revan debate? We can have it on either CV or KMC, but I'd prefer KMC. We can put a five post limit each if anyone is worried it'd get too big. Let me know.

SunRazer
Yeah, someone debate him so he can concede again. thumb up

DarthAnt66
I'm willing to debate you also, BTW. Let me know when (of if you ever are - given our history together, I doubt you ever will be for a serious debate given you know you'd lost) you're ready (you don't seem to be in the right state of mind at the moment).

SunRazer
I'm ready now. Address my points. Stop leaving me hanging, and stop introducing irrelevant stipulations.

DarthAnt66
You're reading to put your password on the line? I am.

SunRazer
Okay, now that we've had our big song and dance that we have every three months, can you actually address the points? Or is this going to be the third or fourth time that you've ran from a Tenebrous debate?

Ursumeles
WTF is that shit.

Azronger
Ant, I can debate you if it makes you happy. But I'm not agreeing to those conditions, if that's okay with you. If not, find someone else.

AncientPower
I'd like to know how Caedus is a definite but Revan, Kun and Krayt aren't. erm

Nephthys
It's telling that even though I emphatically agree with Ant on Revan vs Tenebrous, he still manages to destroy his position without Sunrazer doing a single thing.

Geistalt
Originally posted by Nephthys
It's telling that even though I emphatically agree with Ant on Revan vs Tenebrous, he still manages to destroy his position without Sunrazer doing a single thing.

Geistalt
Oh, and I saw Plagueis and Caedus as rough equals at the time.

And, although he got ragdolled by Luke in the 11th chapter, it happens to even the best.
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/3453088/force-push-o.gif

Besides, Caedus had a whole lot of time to improve, and certainly proved his combative prowess in their duel over Kashyyyk.

Deronn_solo
Getting shoved really hard one time, is different from someone literally holding you in place with casual ease and all the struggling you can muster can't set you free to move a inch.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Getting shoved really hard one time, is different from someone literally holding you in place with casual ease and all the struggling you can muster can't set you free to move a inch.
its not like luke couldn't do the same to pl;agueis

Deronn_solo
Doubt it.

Not that I'm arguing whether Caedus can be equal or above Plagueis or not. Only that there is literally no parity between a shove and getting held in place without your opponent trying and you giving it your all, and you still can't move an inch.

Rockydonovang
1. Well it would depend on how you view luke compared to yoda though yoda could likely dominate plagueis(if not to the degree luke dominated caedus) given eotpm sidious's superiority to him and sidious undergoing a decade-plus of power growth.

2. Fair enough

Ursumeles
Originally posted by AncientPower
I'd like to know how Caedus is a definite but Revan, Kun and Krayt aren't. erm You are talking to the Darth Malgus ~ DN Luke in '!sabers guy erm

Geistalt
And that's why I'm never ranking his non-prime instances again.

Because, evidently, I hadn't the slightest idea of what I was talking about.

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. Well it would depend on how you view luke compared to yoda though yoda could likely dominate plagueis(if not to the degree luke dominated caedus) given eotpm sidious's superiority to him and sidious undergoing a decade-plus of power growth.

I have no reason to believe Palpatine grew to a great degree from TPM to RotS.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I have no reason to believe Palpatine grew to a great degree from TPM to RotS.
We'll have to agree to disagree then, gven sidious's potential him growing significantly in more than a decade is common sense imo(and its explicitly stated palps grew in power).

Deronn_solo
Growing in power, and growing to ragdoll Plagueis range, is two completely different things. I'm gonna need actual evidence for the latter, not conjecture or wishful thinking.

Even peak Palpatine hasn't displayed the combative power sufficient enough to say he could ragdoll Plagueis.

Geistalt
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
We'll have to agree to disagree then.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Growing in power, and growing to ragdoll Plagueis range, is two completely different things. I'm gonna need actual evidence for the latter, not conjecture or wishful thinking.

Even peak Palpatine hasn't displayed the combative power sufficient enough to say he could ragdoll Plagueis.
Sidius by the end of tpm was already more powerful than plagueis and you could argue even before killing plagueis he was more powerful.
This is always going to be conjecture anyway so we're better off agreeing to disagree

AncientPower
Luceno says that Plagueis would have found a way to defeat Palpatine in a straight fight.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by AncientPower
Luceno says that Plagueis would have found a way to defeat Palpatine in a straight fight.
post please.
IIRC, he says plagueis "could" have found a way to beat sidious in a straight fight, and that can be attributed to plagueis having trained sidious anyway.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.