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5 m starting distance inside Palpatine's office


Composite feats


Full Regen after each round


Warm Up:Late TCW Tano

1.): PoD Bane
2.): Darth Talon
3.): S3 TCW Ventress
4.): Cin Drallig

5.): TPM Maul
6.): RotS Kenobi
7.): Jard Dooku
8.): Mace Windu (standard)

BOSS Darth Krayt (full crab armor)

Somewhere from 5 to 8.

Why the hell do you call Dooku "Jard"?

8, probably.

yeah 8

5 or 6

7 or 8. It is kind of hard to use "composite" versions of ANH Vader since one has him being a pale shadow of Anakin and the other makes him about as powerful.

Originally posted by Trocity
Why the hell do you call Dooku "Jard"?

It's a fanon name for Dooku that he wants to become canon.

Not sure

Clears.

5. Not sure how people are thinking he gets past that. Prime Vader would obviously be different but I can't see ANH Vader taking Maul.

Assuming Canon takes precedent, 8 or clears.

Originally posted by Azronger
5. Not sure how people are thinking he gets past that. Prime Vader would obviously be different but I can't see ANH Vader taking Maul.

I can. And pretty easily as well.

He's stated to be more powerful and is logically more skilled then a version of himself who beat someone Dooku who was superior to SoD Maul who was confirmed to be more powerful then the Maul you're referencing.

Yeah, making this a Legends/Canon composite version of ANH Vader is a bit paradoxical.

change to round 1 canon round 2 EU

Maul in Legends, Mace in canon.

Actually considering TFU, he clears Legends as well.

Do you believe in the Fightsaber quote about Vader's skill then Beni?

Fightsaber says Vader haven't dueled anyone in many years by the time of ANH. Which is retconned by TFU, yes.

Edit: And by many other comics too, tbh.

Fair, but does Vader part being invalidated do away with Kenobi's stated deminished skill?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Fightsaber says Vader haven't dueled anyone in many years by the time of ANH. Which is retconned by TFU, yes.

Edit: And by many other comics too, tbh.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Fair, but does Vader part being invalidated do away with Kenobi's stated deminished skill? Kenobi is still an old man hindered by infirmity, and I doubt that will ever change.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Fair, but does Vader part being invalidated do away with Kenobi's stated deminished skill?

There are other sources for that beside Fightsaber.

Alright, fair enough babes.

What the f-uck is this shit? You are suppose to call us retarded c-unts and keep on believing what you did before.

That's how it works anyway.

Nope, I'mma try to be nice and more understanding for a change.

Die phag.

I prefer it when you're abusive.

Vader still clears both EU and canon.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Die phag.

y u do dis to me?
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I prefer it when you're abusive.

If that's how you like it. <3

Originally posted by |King Joker|
8, probably.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
y u do dis to me?

Idk, y u castrate urself?

'Cause he 1% gay.

We've been over this, 1% gay = gay. You are such a f-ucking disappointment Petrus.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
We've been over this, 1% gay = gay. You are such a f-ucking disappointment Petrus.

stfu u cancerous little shit.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Idk, y u castrate urself?

but i didn't.

Originally posted by Petrus
stfu u cancerous little shit.

Don't squirt your menstruation blood all over me because you can't grasp simple concepts.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
but i didn't.

What? You mean you didn't have to give up on your balls to say shit like this?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I'mma try to be nice and more understanding for a change.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Don't squirt your menstruation blood all over me because you can't grasp simple concepts.

The penis prevents me from menstruating, 'tarded clown. Besides, that 1% of gayness would make him bi, not gay.

Originally posted by Petrus
The penis prevents me from menstruating, 'tarded clown. Besides, that 1% of gayness would make him bi, not gay.

You f-uckface are so clueless.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
There's no such thing as bisexual guy, if you like dick you are gai.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
You f-uckface are so clueless.

You arrogant shitbag quoting yourself and all.

Ad hominem-ing little c-unt.

the wanking of Vader on these forums is beyond unhealthy

Yeah and your hate towards him isn't biased at all, judging by your sig especially.

Originally posted by Petrus
Yeah and your hate towards him isn't biased at all, judging by your sig especially. idk what you're talking about. Vader is vulnerable to lightning and I have Tyranus beating him 7/10 times.

Exactly my point. U a Tyranus fanboi

Originally posted by Petrus
Exactly my point. U a Tyranus fanboi I don't hate on Vader though. He's probably my 2nd or 3rd favorite SW character after Dooku. I'm just not blinded by social attitudes towards him and feelings of OT nostalgia.

You're right, you're blinded by wrinkled balls instead.

Maul or Kenobi.

Saying ANH Vader beats ROTS Kenobi is outright laughable though.

Originally posted by Kurk
the wanking of Vader on these forums is beyond unhealthy


It's not the forum though. It's the new Disney run Lucasfilm wanking him out.

dry those tears

Originally posted by Beniboybling
dry those tears will you lick them off my face for me Beni?

http://i.imgur.com/r2JfR8r.gif

Vader not fighting any Force users between RotS and ANH has been retconned, but that doesn't mean him being a pale shadow of himself has been as well. After all, he's still relatively equal with Ben Kenobi, who we know to be a pale shadow of his RotS self. And if ANH Vader's << RotS Kenobi, then I think we can deduce that he's still a pale shadow of Anakin as far as dueling goes.

Since we've already done this song and dance about a hundred times.

>Misinterpretation of quotes regarding Vader > Anakin.
>Shadow of former selves quote not applying to their overall combative capabilities.
>There being no evidence that Ben was Vader's equal.

Blah blah blah.

I'm only talking about dueling, you ****ing donkey. I said that in my post. The only misinterpretation here is yours, and its the product of that conglomerate mass of biased ideas you get in your head whenever Anakin comes up. I could post you the evidence for Anakin > Vader in dueling and you wouldn't accept it.

Vader never once shows skill superiority over Ben. According to the Death Star rendition, he tires Obi-Wan out, but that's it. Other renditions have it being a stalemate. That dueling pack quote that Ant posted says that Vader only became the greatest duelist in the galaxy once Kenobi died. Fightsaber states that Vader can't break through Obi-Wan's defense until Obi-Wan yields. And so on. They're close enough that Ben is nowhere near a pale shadow of Vader. I'm willing to accept some leeway on the equality thing, but they're obviously very close. Enough so that my point stands - and I did say "relatively equal".

Certainly Vader still isn't anywhere close to RotS Obi-Wan as of ANH or else he'd beat Ben decisively. By his prime? Probably about equal in dueling.

I doubt Vader ever got to Kenobi's level.

It's a possibility, at least.

As for Legends ANH Vader beating RotS Obi-Wan in dueling? No chance. Canon, possibly/probably.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
>There being no evidence that Ben was Vader's equal.
https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/17/73/92/12/kenobi10.png

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm only talking about dueling, you ****ing donkey. I said that in my post. The only misinterpretation here is yours, and its the product of that conglomerate mass of biased ideas you get in your head whenever Anakin comes up. I could post you the evidence for Anakin > Vader in dueling and you wouldn't accept it.

Vader never once shows skill superiority over Ben. According to the Death Star rendition, he tires Obi-Wan out, but that's it. Other renditions have it being a stalemate. That dueling pack quote that Ant posted says that Vader only became the greatest duelist in the galaxy once Kenobi died. Fightsaber states that Vader can't break through Obi-Wan's defense until Obi-Wan yields. And so on. They're close enough that Ben is nowhere near a pale shadow of Vader. I'm willing to accept some leeway on the equality thing, but they're obviously very close. Enough so that my point stands - and I did say "relatively equal".

Certainly Vader still isn't anywhere close to RotS Obi-Wan as of ANH or else he'd beat Ben decisively. By his prime? Probably about equal in dueling.

Making up for 10 years of pompous superiority by swearing in every other post I see.

I never suggested he did. However we can understand such a statement to be true simply because Vader's far more experienced then he was as Anakin, retaining all the knowledge of lightsaber combat he had prior to being placed in the suit and had kept his skills honed by fighting against enemy Force users and training droids having been confirmed to have been constantly improving his lightsaber skill. Ben on the other hand had been confirmed to have degraded as a duelist thus making it logical that he is Vader's inferior.

Yes, for the duration that Vader and Obi Wan fought neither Vader nor Obi Wan defeated each other. This is because, as I mentioned, Vader was fighting cautiously having remembered their last engagement. It is my belief that Vader would have defeated him had the engagement been prolonged but if he hadn't that would be solely because of Ben's growth in power given we know he degraded in every other area and Vader himself was more powerful and logically more skilled then he was as Anakin.

See this is where your argument falls apart. The basis for such a stance is that Anakin is somehow above Vader but since that's not the case we know Ben's growth in power was at least enough to allow him to contend with a superior opponent to Anakin which suggests overall superiority to his RotS incarnation as a lightsaber combatant despite a degradation in skill.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/17/73/92/12/kenobi10.png

?

They were evenly matched but nowhere does it say they were equals.

And like I said to ShootingNova Ben's performance is based on his power growth and has no impact on the comparison between Vader and RotS Kenobi.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
?

They were evenly matched but nowhere does it say they were equals.
https://media.giphy.com/media/ukGm72ZLZvYfS/giphy.gif

If their abilities are evenly matched, then they are equals in lightsaber combat, rofl.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
And like I said to ShootingNova Ben's performance is based on his power growth and has no impact on the comparison between Vader and RotS Kenobi.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://media.giphy.com/media/ukGm72ZLZvYfS/giphy.gif

If their abilities are evenly matched, then they are equals in lightsaber combat, rofl.

I know you have trouble seeing through those tinted glasses but a fight being even or close doesn't mean the combatants themselves are equal. Especially when it's only describing the fight up to that point.

yooo this stretch

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Making up for 10 years of pompous superiority by swearing in every other post I see.

I've been around for about five years only. Pompous only in your mind, lol. People on CV are fine with what I do, and I certainly don't have a superiority complex. As for the swearing, I'm just experimenting with this "f-word is no longer offensive in Australia" thing



lol Ben possessed the "knowledge" as well. He just didn't practice any of it. Vader was hindered by his suit and a loss of raw power. So he doesn't just get to build his skill on top of Anakin.



Vader would've won due to greater stamina, not anything else. He fought apprehensively, which Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force acknowledges, but it also states that his armour hindered him as well.

Vader was more powerful than Anakin in a mastered sense, not a raw sense (Anakin's raw power exceeds any other Jedi/Sith). The way power factors into dueling is that your raw power determines your inherent aptitude for wielding a lightsaber. From then on, it's up to practice and growth with a blade. Vader's raw power was in fact stunted - so he would've only gone backwards, not to mention his suit hindrance. So no, Vader isn't "logically more skilled than Anakin", especially not when quotes outright tell us that he's a mere shadow of his former self.



Or maybe this is a wake-up call for you to ditch that "power growth" nonsense that you take way too far. Your argument's the one that falls apart because I can easily reconcile everything with my approach to this. Your approach relies on your personal belief of what's logical and then you have to throw out material that disagrees with you.

Ben and Vader are shadows of their former selves in dueling. It's stated. There's nothing around it. Lucas himself states that Anakin > Vader. Vader's feats are worse than Anakin's. Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force states that Vader's been hindered. Vader has a hard time with a pale shadow of RotS Obi-Wan.

Just get out of denial and acknowledge the facts.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
And like I said to ShootingNova Ben's performance is based on his power growth and has no impact on the comparison between Vader and RotS Kenobi.

Power growth which Vader didn't even notice in Death Star, whilst Vader immediately noticed Ben's deterioration in skill. This "power growth" thing is a personal thing and just a way for you to satisfy your denial. The facts have already been presented - it's time for you to wake up and acknowledge them instead of forever trying to deny them and find ways to get around them.

DD arguing ANH Kenobi > ROTS Anakin, rofl.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
DD arguing ANH Kenobi > ROTS Anakin, rofl.

When?

Originally posted by SunRazer
lol Ben possessed the "knowledge" as well. He just didn't practice any of it. Vader was hindered by his suit and a loss of raw power. So he doesn't just get to build his skill on top of Anakin.

Yes but he didn't practice and employ the knowledge as Vader did which is the key difference between them. The only hindrance the suit provided being mobility and as is mentioned in numerous sources is something Vader adapted to.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Vader would've won due to greater stamina, not anything else. He fought apprehensively, which Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force acknowledges, but it also states that his armour hindered him as well.

In your opinion he would have won due to greater stamina. I believe his general superiority would have done so with my opinion being backed up by their comparative feats and logical skill at that point. It hindered his mobility, yes. Nothing else.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Vader was more powerful than Anakin in a mastered sense, not a raw sense (Anakin's raw power exceeds any other Jedi/Sith). The way power factors into dueling is that your raw power determines your inherent aptitude for wielding a lightsaber. From then on, it's up to practice and growth with a blade. Vader's raw power was in fact stunted - so he would've only gone backwards, not to mention his suit hindrance. So no, Vader isn't "logically more skilled than Anakin", especially not when quotes outright tell us that he's a mere shadow of his former self.

He was stated to be more powerful in multiple quotes. Just because you choose to misinterpret quotes and justify those misinterpretations with BS reasoning doesn't change that fact. Power factors into a duel in that your applicable power allows you to augment yourself to certain levels and if you have superior augmentation in conjunction with equal or superior skill you'll likely win. This is dependent on a variety of factors including the extent said individual is able to augment themselves. Vader's potential was stunted, yes. His applicable power was superior to Anakin's own. And at the end of it all it appears you're trying to equate skill with the ability to augment yourself. Bravo. Vader is a shadow of his former self in potential and in a few other areas such as mobility sure. Going by quotes and demonstrated showings he isn't in any other regard.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Or maybe this is a wake-up call for you to ditch that "power growth" nonsense that you take way too far. Your argument's the one that falls apart because I can easily reconcile everything with my approach to this. Your approach relies on your personal belief of what's logical and then you have to throw out material that disagrees with you.

My approach relies on cnaonical quotes. Your approach is reconciled through fanboyism ( likely to keep Dooku from being lowered ), hyperbolic RotS quotes and unspecific quotes form decades ago you attempt to twist in an effort to suit your bias.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Ben and Vader are shadows of their former selves in dueling. It's stated. There's nothing around it. Lucas himself states that Anakin > Vader. Vader's feats are worse than Anakin's. Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force states that Vader's been hindered. Vader has a hard time with a pale shadow of RotS Obi-Wan.

Ben is a shadow of his former self in physical ability and skill. Vader is a shadow of his former self in regards to potential and mobility.

"Lucas himself states that Anakin > Vader."

Quote?

Vader has been hindered after being put into the suit, yes. In his ability to draw on greater amounts of raw power when enraged and his mobility. Which, when taking into account Ben's superior augmentation doesn't mean jack diddly squat. What you're failing to understand is that Ben being an overall inferior combatant is only justifiable if we didn't have quotes already confirming Vader's superiority to his former self. Since we do the point is moot.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Just get out of denial and acknowledge the facts.

Maybe once you do.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Power growth which Vader didn't even notice in Death Star, whilst Vader immediately noticed Ben's deterioration in skill. This "power growth" thing is a personal thing and just a way for you to satisfy your denial. The facts have already been presented - it's time for you to wake up and acknowledge them instead of forever trying to deny them and find ways to get around them.

The novel doesn't note it, no. That doesn't mean Vader didn't notice it. But this is your MO. Trying to twist the meaning of certain passages based on their wording or assuming it means something favorable to your position when it lacks clarity.

It's a way to logically explain why someone who's superior to Anakin Skywalker would perform as he did against Ben despite Ben having been confirmed to have decreased both in base physical stats and skill.

The difference between you and I is that I will never deny canonical quotes because it doesn't suit my personal bias.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
The difference between you and I is that I will never deny canonical quotes because it doesn't suit my personal bias.
I'm profiling this.

This is frankly starting to get frustrating.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Yes but he didn't practice and employ the knowledge as Vader did which is the key difference between them. The only hindrance the suit provided being mobility and as is mentioned in numerous sources is something Vader adapted to.

Adapting to something means rolling with the punches. You still get punched, though - the hindrance is still there. Vader learned to reduce it by changing his form etc, but that didn't eliminate it completely. And the Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force confirms that the speed/agility issue affected Vader in his ANH duel with Ben.



No, he only would've won due to greater stamina according to every ****ing source that portrays the fight. Fightsaber literally confirms that Vader couldn't break through Obi-Wan's defenses until the latter dropped them. Show me a source that indicates that Vader was just flat-out, irrefutably better than Obi-Wan in dueling.



We've been through this. And I accepted the one that was indisputable. Obviously it refers to mastered power as opposed to raw power, though.



Except Vader didn't have equal or superior skill. The whole suit thing was like a reset button - he couldn't even fight like he used to anymore. He had to change his style completely. It was starting again from scratch. So again, it's not just Vader getting more augmentation on top of his RotS incarnation like you're throwing around.



This just proves you're not even reading my points. You're a ****ing pain to debate for this reason. I'm not equating skill with augmentation. I made the distinction of how they are related to Force power - augmentation is related to mastered power, whereas skill, raw skill, is derived from raw power. Get it through your head.



All of our quotes are canonical, proto-brain.



What does this have to do with Dooku? If you knew anything about me, you'd know that I like Obi-Wan more than Dooku, lol. And my character biases don't influence my character judgments. You probably wouldn't know, since you blindly accuse people of things.

Anyway, who are you to talk about fanboyism? You're the laughingstock of the forum whenever you talk about Galen, and you've admitted you only take quotes on arbitrary whims. So I can just as easily - and with far more credence - say that you're doing this to raise Vader so that you can, in turn, raise Galen. After all, Galen's far more relevant to ANH Vader than Dooku.



Like what? I'm not even bringing up the ones from the RotS novel.

And if a quote is hyperbolic, it's still rooted in truth. So the point will still stand - it's just depicted colourfully.



Again, like what? Everyone has their biases - the difference being that I've got a reputation for not allowing biases to cloud my judgment on things. Ask the good debaters on CV, who don't know anything about SW (which eliminates their own biases on the matter, as opposed to asking people on KMC). I'm known for being objective, factual, and analytical. And frankly, even if I wasn't, this blatant hurling of bias accusations without any basis just shows how pathetic your case is.



Lol, according to what? The article was about lightsaber combat overall, and it mentions them both being shadows in the same sentence, without specifying any difference between the two.

You go on to accuse me of this:



Yet you're doing it right now. Lmfao

Absolute ****leg.



Here:



Which makes it blindingly obvious that Vader isn't in his prime as a swordsman.

Lucas also confirms that Vader's raw power is lesser than Anakin's, which is again the thing that factors into skill.



I know you're going to contest these and claim that I'm biased again, anyway. Ah, **** me, **** me, **** me.



Ben's superior augmentation? He's confirmed to have slowed, you ****ing brick. Nowhere is his augmentation suggested to have improved. It's clear that the tarnishing factors of his physicality were far more important than some unspecified and utterly unnoticeable growth in power that you keep having fantasies about.



Oh, no, but I'm twisting this quote to suit my Dooku biases, and the quote doesn't even mention Ben's augmentation, so it must've forgotten to factor that in. Boohoohoohoohoo.

**** off.

Or maybe Vader isn't superior to his former self. Have you just considered how you could reconcile everything if you didn't hold onto your personal fantasies regarding the situation? Have you considered that Ben's augmentation might not have improved all along because he was out of practice with that as well? As in, his skill in actually using the Force to augment himself declined, so that his power growth ultimately didn't even matter?

The quotes confirm that Ben is overall an inferior combatant, you ****ing donkey. Show me quotes for Vader being superior to his former self in every way. Because I'm actually curious about them. They might help to re-evaluate my stance on this.

We know from the quote I posted directly above that "power growth-based augmentation" is in fact overridden by physical ailments (such as Ben's age/lack of practice), which includes Vader's suit. Prove that the augmentation boost would've circumvented such a hindrance. We know from quotes that Ben's apparently improved augmentation didn't make him for his physical loss of speed, so prove - irrefutably - that Vader's augmentation would make up for his suit. Otherwise, can you not at least see the possibility that Vader's suit hindered him more than his augmentation enhanced him, and that therefore he overall declined as a combatant? Which is what Fightsaber, Lucas etc. were saying all along?

Come on, man.



I have. You've yet to do so. You're not even giving me the courtesy of actually reading my posts. You keep misquoting and misinterpreting me all the ****ing time.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
The novel doesn't note it, no. That doesn't mean Vader didn't notice it. But this is your MO. Trying to twist the meaning of certain passages based on their wording or assuming it means something favorable to your position when it lacks clarity.

It means that Vader recognizes Ben's deterioration in skill moreso than his power growth, lol. If the power growth made up for it, then Vader would be recognizing that, instead of the deterioration in skill. It's blindingly obvious as to what's more prevalent here. You're in a desperate state of denial right now and you can't even admit it.

That's like saying the passage says there's two separate boxes, but it doesn't say there's one box plus another box, so you're making a blatant assumption and twisting the meaning of the quote.



Logical for you isn't logical for anyone else - you're living in your own deluded, illusory world. And I'm not a psychologist, so it's not my job to make you wake up. I'm just giving you the facts. If you want to twist them as you do, then you do that. I've had enough of this.

You're not even opening your mind to what I'm saying. Everything I say isn't logical to you - only what you say is. And you just keep repeating yourself end on end without even opening your mind to the possibility of something else. What a joke.



You're doing it even as we speak, lmfao. Way to destroy your own credibility. You're infamous for doing just that, too. Get a grip on reality. Because your argument on this case is a ****ing joke. You should be ashamed of yourself for calling people out on all these problems and yet exhibiting them in the exact same post.

I'm at least listening to you, trying to reason with you, and opening my mind to outside arguments. Can I at least get the same from you? Or is everything I say inherently flawed, biased, and irredeemable while you sit there preaching the will of God in a heavenly choir voice? Because if you continue to show that you don't care about the possibility that you're wrong, I'll start to show that I don't care about you.

God, this is getting annoying, lol.

Syn destroying Razer, lmao.

Also, pure comedic gold.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Syn destroying Razer, lmao.

Piss off, lol. You really do want to make me an hero, don't you?

Anyway, reply to Tempest. You're embarrassing yourself by throwing these taunts when you don't even have the guts to face him.

I'm also probably not going to bother responding if you make another reply, Syn. Nothing personal. But as you can tell from my last post, I'm not really in the shape to be doing this.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Piss off, lol. You really do want to make me an hero, don't you?

No, you're one of my best friends, Nova.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
No, you're one of my best friends, Nova.

Then stop annoying me in every thread. As you can tell, I'm in a fragile emotional state right now

Originally posted by SunRazer
As you can tell, I'm in a fragile emotional state right now
Syn getting under your skin that much?

It's not hard when your skin is reduced to being paper-thin, lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Adapting to something means rolling with the punches. You still get punched, though - the hindrance is still there. Vader learned to reduce it by changing his form etc, but that didn't eliminate it completely. And the Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force confirms that the speed/agility issue affected Vader in his ANH duel with Ben.

I don't think it would be enough of a hindrance to counter balance Vader's superiority in the Force to his former self personally. I assume you believe differently?

Originally posted by SunRazer
No, he only would've won due to greater stamina according to every ****ing source that portrays the fight. Fightsaber literally confirms that Vader couldn't break through Obi-Wan's defenses until the latter dropped them. Show me a source that indicates that Vader was just flat-out, irrefutably better than Obi-Wan in dueling.

I'm saying it's logical that he is given he's actually fought opponents and practiced and has been confirmed to have grown in skill over the last several decades while Obi Wan has not. And those sources you're touting only account for the portion of the fight up to the point Obi Wan allowed himself to become one with the Force. The portion in which Vader was fighting against Ben cautiously.

Originally posted by SunRazer
We've been through this. And I accepted the one that was indisputable. Obviously it refers to mastered power as opposed to raw power, though.

The other quotes were just as legitimate. And I'm saying the quote you accepted refers to applicable power. I'm not going to budge on this and it seems you aren't either which is the crux of our problem as it's the hinge of the entire discussion.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Except Vader didn't have equal or superior skill. The whole suit thing was like a reset button - he couldn't even fight like he used to anymore. He had to change his style completely. It was starting again from scratch. So again, it's not just Vader getting more augmentation on top of his RotS incarnation like you're throwing around.

Vader retains all of his technical knowledge of the forms. Given he has a superior baseline physical body to work with ( albeit with inferior mobility ) and superior applicable power to Anakin I feel confident he was able to regain an equal or greater level of applicable skill over the course of 20 years when before he had become the greatest Djem So specialist Dooku had ever seen within the timespan of the Clone Wars ( 2-3 years ).

Originally posted by SunRazer
This just proves you're not even reading my points. You're a ****ing pain to debate for this reason. I'm not equating skill with augmentation. I made the distinction of how they are related to Force power - augmentation is related to mastered power, whereas skill, raw skill, is derived from raw power. Get it through your head.

Raw skill is NOT related to raw power. Raw ability as a lightsaber combatant isn't even related to raw power if you're equating raw power with potential but rather applicable power. I'm well aware of the type of BS you're trying to pull here, probably the reason you find me such a chore to debate.

Originally posted by SunRazer
All of our quotes are canonical, proto-brain.

The quotes you use are canonical but the meaning you derive from them is not.

Originally posted by SunRazer
What does this have to do with Dooku? If you knew anything about me, you'd know that I like Obi-Wan more than Dooku, lol. And my character biases don't influence my character judgments. You probably wouldn't know, since you blindly accuse people of things.

Anyway, who are you to talk about fanboyism? You're the laughingstock of the forum whenever you talk about Galen, and you've admitted you only take quotes on arbitrary whims. So I can just as easily - and with far more credence - say that you're doing this to raise Vader so that you can, in turn, raise Galen. After all, Galen's far more relevant to ANH Vader than Dooku.

Of course they do. I have a screen cap of Ant admitting to you removing your posts from some of his blogs in exchange for a deal. This is likely when Ant started placing Traya around Dooku level.

http://i.imgur.com/bLFSyQj.png

Originally posted by SunRazer
Like what? I'm not even bringing up the ones from the RotS novel.

And if a quote is hyperbolic, it's still rooted in truth. So the point will still stand - it's just depicted colourfully.

Lmao. You call Anakin > Yoda quotes as colorful depictions of the truth. I don't think anything needs to be said here.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Again, like what? Everyone has their biases - the difference being that I've got a reputation for not allowing biases to cloud my judgment on things. Ask the good debaters on CV, who don't know anything about SW (which eliminates their own biases on the matter, as opposed to asking people on KMC). I'm known for being objective, factual, and analytical. And frankly, even if I wasn't, this blatant hurling of bias accusations without any basis just shows how pathetic your case is.

Refer to the evidence suggesting otherwise 2 posts up.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Lol, according to what? The article was about lightsaber combat overall, and it mentions them both being shadows in the same sentence, without specifying any difference between the two.

You go on to accuse me of this:

According to other quotes which contradict the idea of Vader being inferior in any areas that I didn't already admit to him being inferior in.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Which makes it blindingly obvious that Vader isn't in his prime as a swordsman.

Lucas also confirms that Vader's raw power is lesser than Anakin's, which is again the thing that factors into skill.

No it doesn't. The quote is just Lucas giving an excuse for why the technological limitations of the time did not allow for Vader, Luke and Ben to be depicted as "fast." Are we to assume Qui Gon Jinn and TPM Obi Wan are faster then Vader or RotJ Luke simply because they moved as blurs in the movies? No, that'd be ridiculous.

I don't care about Vader's raw or potential power as I don't think raw power = raw skill or whatever nonsense you were spewing. I care about applicable power which Vader is confirmed to be stronger then Anakin in.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I know you're going to contest these and claim that I'm biased again, anyway. Ah, **** me, **** me, **** me.

Holy shit! I made you have a temper tantrum.

Nova right now:

https://zippy.gfycat.com/SardonicKaleidoscopicJaguar.gif

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/kepler-snburp-point1second-nograph-1280x720-shorter-10lossy.gif

Originally posted by SunRazer
Ben's superior augmentation? He's confirmed to have slowed, you ****ing brick. Nowhere is his augmentation suggested to have improved. It's clear that the tarnishing factors of his physicality were far more important than some unspecified and utterly unnoticeable growth in power that you keep having fantasies about.

What you fail to grasp is that Vader being confirmed to be more powerful and thus faster then Anakin along with Obi Wan necessitates that Ben have increased in augmentation by a fair amount when you consider he has slowed physically and degraded in skill.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Oh, no, but I'm twisting this quote to suit my Dooku biases, and the quote doesn't even mention Ben's augmentation, so it must've forgotten to factor that in. Boohoohoohoohoo.

**** off.

I gotta say. I like this feisty side of you. Better then that pompous attitude you had before anyways.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Or maybe Vader isn't superior to his former self. Have you just considered how you could reconcile everything if you didn't hold onto your personal fantasies regarding the situation? Have you considered that Ben's augmentation might not have improved all along because he was out of practice with that as well? As in, his skill in actually using the Force to augment himself declined, so that his power growth ultimately didn't even matter?

The quotes confirm that Ben is overall an inferior combatant, you ****ing donkey. Show me quotes for Vader being superior to his former self in every way. Because we know from the quote I posted directly above that "power growth-based augmentation" is in fact overridden by physical ailments (such as Ben's age/lack of practice), which includes Vader's suit. Prove that the augmentation boost would've circumvented such a hindrance. We know from quotes that Ben's apparently improved augmentation didn't make him for his physical loss of speed, so prove - irrefutably - that Vader's augmentation would make up for his suit. Otherwise, can you not at least see the possibility that Vader's suit hindered him more than his augmentation enhanced him, and that therefore he overall declined as a combatant? Which is what Fightsaber, Lucas etc. were saying all along?

Come on, man.

I'm sorry but I don't consider canonical quotes personal fantasies. Given Maul was a deranged spider cyborg for over a decade and didn't lose any apparent skill in augmentation I find that unlikely.

The quote confirms that both Ben and Vader are lesser in some way given the other quotes regarding Vader. I've already explained what abilities the quote is likely referencing in my last post. I don't need to. I only need to have quotes confirming Vader is more powerful which I do. What proof do you have that power based augmentation is superseded by physical inferiority? Given the combatants we're talking about here have demonstrated feats with energy output far beyond a normal human I'd imagine it's quite the opposite. Prove it? Well, as I pointed out their feats have energy output far greater then what a baseline human is capable of generating and their augmentation should be equivalent.

"We know from quotes that Ben's apparently improved augmentation didn't make him for his physical loss of speed"

Where? Where is this unequivocally stated?

Originally posted by SunRazer
I have. You've yet to do so. You're not even giving me the courtesy of actually reading my posts.

I've read the entirety of your post thus far and as far I can see you've yet to admit to the legitimacy of the quotes placing Vader above Anakin.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It means that Vader recognizes Ben's deterioration in skill moreso than his power growth, lol. If the power growth made up for it, then Vader would be recognizing that, instead of the deterioration in skill. It's blindingly obvious as to what's more prevalent here. You're in a desperate state of denial right now and you can't even admit it.

That's what you believe it to mean. If Vader himself has grown in power, something that's confirmed, then the more relevant factor is their comparative skill which is why Vader acknowledged it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Logical for you isn't logical for anyone else - you're living in your own deluded, illusory world. And I'm not a psychologist, so it's not my job to make you wake up. I'm just giving you the facts. If you want to twist them as you do, then you do that. I've had enough of this.

So I take that as a concession?

Originally posted by SunRazer
You're not even opening your mind to what I'm saying. Everything I say isn't logical - only what you say is. What a joke.

I do find what you're saying pretty laughable.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You're doing it even as we speak, lmfao. Way to destroy your own credibility. You're infamous for doing just that, too. Get a grip on reality. Because your argument on this case is a ****ing joke. You should be ashamed of yourself for calling people out on all these problems and yet exhibiting them in the exact same post.

When have I done that in the last 4 months?

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm at least listening to you, trying to reason with you, and opening my mind to outside arguments. Can I at least get the same from you? Or is everything I say inherently biased, irredeemable, and not worthy of being listened to, while you sit there preaching the will of God in a heavenly choir voice? Because if you continue to show that you don't care about the possibility that you're wrong, I'll start to show that I don't care about you.

The thing is we're never going to agree because I interpret the quotes placing Vader above Anakin as they're supposed to be interpreted while you inevitably try to twist them.

Originally posted by SunRazer
God, this is getting annoying, lol.

I can't say the same. This has been highly entertaining.

Fortunately this has taken a lighter tone. I'll consider responding tomorrow.

I won't. 2 pages is my usual max anyways and I see the salt bringing this to 3.

lol Is that an offer to agree to disagree?

As Aslan said in the Voyage of the Dawn Treader.

"You can't take someone out of the dark unless they wish to leave."

I know that the dark can be preferable to seeing the horrors of reality ( truth ) but I promise you Nova, I will always be here to welcome you into the light.

As Gordon Ramsay said on Hell's Kitchen,

"You're about as ****ing consistent as pigeon shit on Trafalgar Square."

Lame. Nova removing his comments from my blogs was years ago.

I don't even remember the reason why he did it, I only brought it up to express the point of how much I hated comments of my blogs, lol.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/58f27b05ac5cb9911d339139554ac40b/tumblr_mfesmybJxd1qkad4do1_500.gif

jk. ily bb.

It was because he didn't like me making negative comments about Malak, lmfao. There was a deal that he wouldn't try to ban me on KMC or something (lol) if I stopped "underrating Malak/Revan".

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lame. Nova removing his comments from my blogs was years ago.

I don't even remember the reason why he did it, I only brought it up to express the point of how much I hated comments of my blogs, lol.

http://rsmg.pbsrc.com/albums/v508/Cylor/Humor/133554959-thumb_backpedal.gif~c200

Originally posted by SunRazer
It was because he didn't like me making negative comments about Malak, lmfao. There was a deal that he wouldn't try to ban me on KMC or something (lol) if I stopped "underrating Malak/Revan".

He threatened to ban be from KMC and CV but I didn't cave like a puss puss.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
http://25.media.tumblr.com/58f27b05ac5cb9911d339139554ac40b/tumblr_mfesmybJxd1qkad4do1_500.gif

jk. ily bb.

https://media.giphy.com/media/pAg23GBmnkrSM/giphy.gif

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
He threatened to ban be from KMC and CV but I didn't cave like a puss puss.

Ban you on CV? Lmfao

And there was more to it, but I don't remember what. Something about stealing focus and his Bastila thread, lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Ban you on CV? Lmfao

And there was more to it, but I don't remember what. Something about stealing focus and his Bastila thread, lol.

He said he had "mod friends."

I was actually terrified at the time.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
He said he had "mod friends."

I was actually terrified at the time.

That's what he said about KMC. Turns out he was the one who got banned

As for CV... nah. The only mod he's even talked to (to my knowledge) is JXM, and they don't get along well.

The truth about Ant is coming out.

Originally posted by SunRazer
As for CV... nah. The only mod he's even talked to (to my knowledge) is JXM, and they don't get along well.
Yo, that shit was retarded. **** JXM.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova


The truth about Ant is coming out.

Yeah.

https://media.giphy.com/media/mALDWlD56aRuU/giphy.gif

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yo, that shit was retarded. **** JXM.

You're not the only one who hates JXM here. DMB talks shit about him regularly too.

He's just vastly overrated and honestly caused both Revan and Galen to be underrated for years due to his lack of knowledge.

To be honest, I remember having similar sentiments at first. I guess I just stopped caring once we started talking to each other.

Yeah. Sometimes when your friends with a guy it doesn't matter how unknowledgable they are.

Quan freely told me he knows nothing of the EU but he's still the chilliest guy I know on Skype.

Just like I still love Ant no matter how manipulative he is.

But please stahp

What are you turds like on Skype, lol?

I'm generally bubbly and cheerful. Xtasy told me recently that I'm meaner over text chat. Lol.

Sounds disgusting.

He's the perfect guy to have in a call with you on an acid trip tbh

Lol. Love the use of that gif Nova.

Man, y'all can be a bunch of c-unts when it comes to debating this pointless shit lol.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova


Btdubs. Over text chat your ok. On KMC you seemed like a douche. Those were my exact words

I remember now. :P

Lol, can the Kenobi cocksuckers keep their crusty 80's sourcebooks to themselves? TFU's already stated Vader is an unparalleled duelist pre-ANH.

*the novelisations also describe Ben & Vader as anything but evenly matched.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
The difference between you and I is that I will never deny canonical quotes because it doesn't suit my personal bias.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DE0zCjMZSso/UF2N6yZsncI/AAAAAAAADHA/rO7ARg5Fda8/s1600/caddyshack.gif

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
He's just vastly overrated and honestly caused both Revan and Galen to be underrated for years due to his lack of knowledge. Which is the fault of the meatheads overrating him and deciding not to do their own research.

People were just as devoutly following Silver, and he made arguments he would retract in a fugging hurry nowadays. So idk why people shit on Jedi so much.

I'd presume it's because... maybe... they're upset he's getting awl the attention. :'( :'( :'(

Nova wishes he was as popular, yeah.

JXM is hardly even remembered anymore on the Battles forum. Although I'm pretty sure he was made a mod for the Battles forum in the first place. I only see him on the off-topic board.

What the **** is going on in this thread? lol

Nothing intellectual.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I'm generally bubbly and cheerful. That's what they'll say in the news when you an hero.

lmao

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Yeah. Sometimes when your friends with a guy it doesn't matter how unknowledgable they are.

Quan freely told me he knows nothing of the EU but he's still the chilliest guy I know on Skype.

I do not understand how the **** you can get along with that retard.

Originally posted by Petrus
I do not understand how the **** you can get along with that retard.

HEa the chilliest guy I've ever talked to. His forum attitude is just a persona.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's what they'll say in the news when you an hero.

Stop #Exposing me.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
HEa the chilliest guy I've ever talked to. His forum attitude is just a persona.

This is what he told me while arguing Vader:

Originally posted by quanchi112

You're from a poor country I can treat you just as the United States treats your people; like shit.


Even if it's 'just a persona' it still doesn't speak very well of him, tbh.

Knowing Syndicate, when he an heros it will be an accident.

His mom will ground him, even though he's twenty, and he'll get pissed off an accidentally break his neck by smashing his head on something in frustration.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
HEa the chilliest guy I've ever talked to. His forum attitude is just a persona.

Ahem. Dick.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Knowing Syndicate, when he an heros it will be an accident.

His mom will ground him, even though he's twenty, and he'll get pissed off an accidentally break his neck by smashing his head on something in frustration.

How you even tolerate him....

Dmb's like the Charlie Sheen of this forum.

Syn should die before he can teach kids.

Given the intellectual maturity of some people on here, I think it's too late.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Ahem. Dick.

How you even tolerate him....

Dmb's like the Charlie Sheen of this forum.
Wasn't aware you still harbored such contempt for me.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Given the intellectual maturity of some people on here, I think it's too late.

Implying some of them are like kids? Well sure, but it's not like Syn taught them anything.

Originally posted by Petrus
This is what he told me while arguing Vader:




Even if it's 'just a persona' it still doesn't speak very well of him, tbh.

Don't be such a puss puss.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Implying some of them are like kids? Well sure, but it's not like Syn taught them anything.

I taught them many things.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Ahem. Dick.



How you even tolerate him....

Dmb's like the Charlie Sheen of this forum.

Sorry, it's true doe. :>

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Wasn't aware you still harbored such contempt for me.

No no. I was asking you how you tolerate Syn.

And then made the Charlie Sheen comment in regards to the acid.
Holding contempt for anyone on this forum is a waste of my already limited time.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Sorry, it's true doe. :>

I Take back every complimentary thing I've said about you then uhuh

I take back our friendship, since you once complimented Syn.

Zoltan's friend count is now back to 0.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I take back our friendship, since you once complimented Syn.

Oh please. You and I are like the Mercy/Bastion combo. We both know its wrong to do it, but we're addicted to gold damage and heals. It's our cocaine.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
No no. I was asking you how you tolerate Syn.

And then made the Charlie Sheen comment in regards to the acid.
Holding contempt for anyone on this forum is a waste of my already limited time.
Ah my bad, fair enough.

If you get in a call with him Syn's pretty damn entertaining tbh. Especially when his mom starts yelling at him.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Ah my bad, fair enough.

No harm. No foul.




I have. It was with a big group of people. And I'm not keen on doing big calls. I'm more of a small group kinda guy.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Don't be such a puss puss.

He doesn't say it jokingly.

Come on, now, Syn. There's a reason Quan is pretty mocked and disliked around here.

Originally posted by Petrus
He doesn't say it jokingly.

Come on, now, Syn. There's a reason Quan is pretty mocked and disliked around here.

I'm sure he does. Quan is cool guy. You should join skype calls with us. Skillz can confirm.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I'm sure he does. Quan is cool guy. You should join skype calls with us. Skillz can confirm.

I'm skeptic, but fine. I'll believe you.

I'm pretty sure he hates me, tho.

Quan's awesome, yeah.