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*Peak Desann*
*RotS Shaak Ti*

Force, 'sabers, all-out.

Do you want a one liner or a thought out response, DC?

Either would do, lmao.

Shaak > Desann > Senya

Desann. Is superior to her in TK due to his beast feats. He's her superior as duelist given how hes dueled Luke twice and Kyle a good amount of times as well.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Desann. Is superior to her in TK due to his beast feats. He's her superior as duelist given how hes dueled Luke twice
Seems legit.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
and Kyle a good amount of times as well.
What makes Kyle a good duelist at this time other than his fights with Desann?

He fought his way through a army of Reborn/Shadow Trooper, fought through a "score" of Sith Abomination on Drumand Kaas, stalemated Boba Fett and, of course, bested 6 of Jerec's Dark Jedi, each more powerful than the next.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Seems legit.

Better not be sarcasm.




Well aside from the fact that he defeated a score of Dark Jedi as a neophyte with minimal training, was a threat to Mara Jade after the fact, was able to defeat countless of Reborn that were considered master swordsmen. Defeated Tavion Axmis after doing said things. Made his way through hordes of Stormies, ShadowTroopers on the Doomgiver AND on Yavin's jungle without any help before spearheading the counter attack on Yavin with barely any assistance and then went on to defeat Desann on a highly potent nexus, this being an more powerful Desann then the one that fought Luke Twice(off screen on Ruusan and on Screen on the Doomgiver)

I mean. I'd say even TFU Ti is getting reckt by Kyle here too.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
He fought his way through a army of Reborn/Shadow Trooper, fought through a "score" of Sith Abomination of Drumand Kaas, stalemated Boba Fett and, of course, bested 6 of Jerec's Dark Jedi, each more powerful than the next.
Fair enough.

I was mainly asking cause I wasn't sure if it was a Galen vs Shaak Ti type thing where Shaak really doesn't get any valuable dueling off of Galen since Galen's by and far most impressive dueling feat at the time is dueling Shaak.

Fated, since you chickened out on Depa vs Plo, wanna do Desann vs whats-her-face?

Originally posted by MythLord
Fated, since you chickened out on Depa vs Plo, wanna do Desann vs whats-her-face?

I get bored easily tbh.

But fine. Any ground rules we should follow?

I actually realized this is RotS Ti, who's kinda an unknown besides some average-to-decent feats...

So TFU Ti vs Desann? And you make the damn opener this time.

I can make the thread

Originally posted by MythLord
I actually realized this is RotS Ti, who's kinda an unknown besides some average-to-decent feats...

So TFU Ti vs Desann? And you make the damn opener this time.

Most of her hype is up to RotS tho, isn't it?

Yis, but she's lacking in the feats department for the most part. There's the MG argument, sure, but I don't think that's enough to carry her through.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I can make the thread

I say Fated makes the Deronn, tho. :^)

Originally posted by MythLord
I actually realized this is RotS Ti, who's kinda an unknown besides some average-to-decent feats...

So TFU Ti vs Desann? And you make the damn opener this time.

Fair enough. And I'll make the thread
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I can make the thread

You won't be doing anything of that nature.

Or will I?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Or will I?

No debate happens if you do :3

Nevermind about this. Lost interest.

As expected.

Stay on topic, or stop posting on my thread.


Who wins?

I'm leaning towards Desann.

Originally posted by MythLord
As expected.

RTs got me busy yo.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Stay on topic, or stop posting on my thread.


Who wins?

What do you think DC? Genuinely curious.

What RTs? The Anakin Solo one that's taken longer than Ant's Caedus RT?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
What RTs? The Anakin Solo one that's taken longer than Ant's Caedus RT?

I'm updating the Alora one rn. Then imma do one for the Reborn and cultist similar to the ones Zenwolf does. Afterwards Desann. Then Katarn

Ayyy lmao.
OT: Either one beats Senya.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
What do you think DC? Genuinely curious.

Desann appears to be the clear-cut favorite to me, but I can be swayed.

Holy ****, DC actually gave an NJO character credit again!

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Holy ****, DC actually gave an NJO character credit again!
YES. YES. YES.
Or he just has Ti low...

I never stopped liking the NJO or its character.

Yeah, but you had them rather low, especially compared to Desann > Shaak.

Nah, not really.

No one has yet to make a credible argument against most of my claims, though. Wollf's attempts to debate for Durron and Kyle were absolute cringe-worthy.

Well tbf Shaak isn't all that impressive.

lmao

Yeah, at least not RotS Shaak.

Yeah, being one of the best duelist in the PT Order and having legendary power in the force is not at all impressive.

People can lowball Shaak to their heart's content, but at least don't be retarded about it.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Yeah, being one of the best duelist in the PT Order and having legendary power in the force is not at all impressive.

People can lowball Shaak to their heart's content, but at least don't be retarded about it.

Taking on NJO Luke twice and not dying >> anything Shaak's done.

How does that have anything to do with Shaak being impressive or not? F-ucking illiterate c-unt. Keep up with the discussion.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-18-2015/RboRjr.gif

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Yeah, being one of the best duelist in the PT Order and having legendary power in the force is not at all impressive.

Everyone and their mom sports that dueling accolade in the PT, lal.

Stealing my gifs? What a little shit.

Besides I'm not triggered, that's how we always talk. Good effort tho DMB.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Everyone and their mom sports that dueling accolade in the PT, lal.

So? Everyone and their dog can challange Luke in the NJO...

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
So? Everyone and their dog can challange Luke in the NJO...

Kinda a shit straw-man argument there babe.

Not once did I comment on Luke V Desann, only sporting one of those vaunted "one of the best" accolades isn't all that impressive when people like Anoon Bondara shares it.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Kinda a shit straw-man argument there babe.

Not once did I comment on Luke V Desann, only sporting one of those vaunted "one of the best" accolades isn't all that impressive when people like Anoon Bondara shares it.

It's the same argument you made. And how is Anoon sharing that accolade means it's less impressive? Malak and Sidious shares the one of the most powerful sith ever accolade, I guess Sidious is not that impressive anymore...

The point is, all of Shaak's accolades blatantly point to her being among a tight elite in the PT order, if you don't find that impressive well that's your prerogative.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
How does that have anything to do with Shaak being impressive or not? F-ucking illiterate c-unt. Keep up with the discussion.

It has to do with her ****ing dying to Desann because only in her wet dreams could she take on such an opponent and not end up being shredded you ****tard.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
So? Everyone and their dog can challange Luke in the NJO...
Usually not without circumstances.
But yeah, Zoltan is right. Shaak's hype is also better than Anoon's.

Originally posted by Petrus
It has to do with her ****ing dying to Desann because only in her wet dreams could she take on such an opponent and not end up being shredded you ****tard.

So you got anally penetrated (not literally, I'm not gai like 77% of KMC) so you decided to move the goalpost instead? A widely used strategy among pathetic little shits

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
So you got anally penetrated (not literally, I'm not gai like 77% of KMC) so you decided to move the goalpost instead? A widely used strategy among pathetic little shits

You're the gayest of them all, *****. Explain how Shaag has a shot of going at least relatively even against NJO Luke or drown in your pussyass accolades just like how Anoon failed ****ing pathetically against Maul aka 'Padawan Meat', you little dickhead.

Damn. Y'all need to chillm

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Damn. Y'all need to chillm

That's just how cs_shitbag and I talk.

Originally posted by Petrus
You're the gayest of them all, *****. Explain how Shaag has a shot of going at least relatively even against NJO Luke or drown in your pussyass accolades just like how Anoon failed ****ing pathetically against Maul aka 'Padawan Meat', you little dickhead.
Shaag Ti, Cock Ti, Shit Ti, or Shaak ****? Which is the best.

Originally posted by Petrus
You're the gayest of them all, *****.
That sounds similar to a little GH discussion...lol
Originally posted by Petrus
You're the gayest of them all, *****. Explain how Shaag has a shot of going at least relatively even against NJO Luke
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/star-wars-universe/4015-57038/forums/star-wars-misconceptions-luke-skywalker-explaining-1844056/


Originally posted by Emperordmb
Shaag Ti, Cock Ti, Shit Ti, or Shaak ****? Which is the best.
Re Ti

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Shaag Ti, Cock Ti, Shit Ti, or Shaak ****? Which is the best.

I like Shaag Ti.

What? No, I didn't.


Because Anoon isn't really all that good? Just saying, when the conversation involves impressive fighters, bringing run-of-the-mill accolades to the table doesn't exactly help your case.



https://media.giphy.com/media/OWpMbuG5W4r4Y/giphy.gif

I see you're being retarded about this - allow me to help your fleeting intellect understand, by articulating my post slowly.

1. I never said Shaak wasn't impressive, only that being of the the best duelist of the PT isn't all that impressive an accolade when discussing battle between powerhouses like Desann and such.

2. It's all relative, yes. For guys like Vitiate, Plagueis, Palpatine, etc - being one of the most powerful Sith Lords isn't impressive because people far below their pay grade is also touting an identical accolade. So when discussing, let's say, Darth Plagueis vs Valkorion, why even mention it? It's the same here, only on a smaller scale.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Shaag Ti, Cock Ti, Shit Ti, or Shaak ****? Which is the best.
Seriously?! KMC censors ****?

DC moving the same goalpost as Petrus. F-ucking hilarious.

Let me explain it to you then slowly.

1. I wasn't commenting on Desann vs Ti.
2. I wasn't even remotely commenting on Desann vs Ti.
3. I wasn't even f-ucking remotely commenting on Desann vs Ti.
4. I wasn't even f-ucking remotely commenting on Desann vs Ti you inbred c-unts.

Got it finally?

And besides, Anoon's accolde doesn't really measure up to Ti's, so your argument is retarded.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Seriously?! KMC censors ****?

Shaag ****, tbh.

@Zoltan:

If you're not discussion the battle, why are you even posting in my thread?

Get out, and don't let the door hit you, you AIDS ridden phag.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Seriously?! KMC censors ****?
It is strange, if such insulting words are allowed, yeah:
Vagina.
Cock.
Penis.
DMB.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
@Zoltan:

If you're not discussion the battle, why are you even posting in my thread?

Get out, and don't let the door hit you, you AIDS ridden phag.

You think yourself special that your threads can't be derailed? You are in for a rude awakening

Originally posted by Ursumeles
It is strange, if such insulting words are allowed, yeah:
Vagina.
Cock.
Penis.
DMB.
DMB was weak, I destroyed him. Now there is only LSDMB

See? Told you phag

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
You think yourself special that your threads can't be derailed? You are in for a rude awakening

I want to see legitimate discussion here and not total nonsense, yeah. You do know I can report you, or/and anyone else here anytime I want, right?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
DMB was weak, I destroyed him. Now there is only LSDMB

We all knew this tbh.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
DMB was weak, I destroyed him. Now there is only LSDMB I know, you Banefan. That's why I said that "DMB" is insulting.

You guys replied to me at 4:20

Thank you for sharing that moment with me.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
You do know I can report you, or/and anyone else here anytime I want, right?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I live by the code of the mean streets of New Orleans; snitches are for bitches.

Especially in a place like KMC - it's already a useless carcass, lets not blow it into 100's pieces.

That was pre-Messiah DC.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
You guys replied to me at 4:20

Thank you for sharing that moment with me.

You're very welcome, child.

I preferd the old DC.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
That was pre-Messiah DC.
Do I still have a chnce of redemption, Messiah?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
That was pre-Messiah DC.
Did you drop acid too?

Speaking of Ti, I find it strange given how much of a favored character she is(or well I always took it as she was anyway)...she didn't really do much in either Canon as far as notable combat wise. TFU was like her only big moment aside from the Magnaguard instance in Legends.

In Canon....her only big moment was the Geonosis battle and she wasn't even really shown.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Speaking of Ti, I find it strange given how much of a favored character she is(or well I always took it as she was anyway)...she didn't really do much in either Canon as far as notable combat wise. TFU was like her only big moment aside from the Magnaguard instance in Legends.

In Canon....her only big moment was the Geonosis battle and she wasn't even really shown.

What do you expect? She's shown as a favoured/Elite character, yes, and that manifested in her being left in charge of the strategic defence of the most important world in the Republic bar Coruscant. I understand your point, but what combat/adventures can someone who's in charge of the Republic's most vital - but stationary - asset go on?

Then she gets transferred to Coruscant (because she's one of the few Jedi Palpatine respects), fights off an unprecedented number of Jedi level (as much as people hate to admit) Magnaguards, force sprints at least 12x faster than Bane (right DMB?) for a long distance in time to try save the chancellor...

I'll admit, what she did over the course of Canon/Legends wasn't immense, but she never did anything badly either, and honestly the lack of feats is circumstantial not ability based. People just turn a blind eye to her good feats (overpowering Galen, tanking a point blank shot to the chest, dominating a planet/civilian population/sarlacc, her Kinetite, stamina etc) while ignoring the context of the bad stuff to make it look like she doesn't live up to the hype.

Compared to people like Agen Kolar, Adi Galia, Stass Allie, Even Piell, Sassee Tin, Quinlan Vos (l) etc, she comes off rather strong/wise indeed. Idk what more people expect from her mmm

Well I mean as someone who came across as a fan fav Sel, she didn't do much as I expected a fan favorite character would do I guess, not that she didn't do anything great.

She cometh.... Sel you wanna debate this?

No offense to wolf but I've never debated you and new foes interests me immensely

I'm not debating nor wanting to, I was just merely pointing something out. Not everything has to be a debate.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
I'm not debating nor wanting to, I was just merely pointing something out. Not everything has to be a debate.

I said Sel. Zen.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
I said Sel. Zen.

...Oh wait I see, sorry I thought you were directing that post I said to me since you spoke of me, but I see what you meant now.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
She cometh.... Sel you wanna debate this?

No offense to wolf but I've never debated you and new foes interests me immensely

Not particularly. Shaak wins (just like she'd beat Legends Vos+Unduli) but I'm enjoying the retired life when it comes to SW debating...

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Well I mean as someone who came across as a fan fav Sel, she didn't do much as I expected a fan favorite character would do I guess, not that she didn't do anything great.

Fair point, though Boba Fett was a fan favourite for standing menacingly around and then being 'killed' by a blind guy.

Fans pick weird favourites

Originally posted by Selenial
Fair point, though Boba Fett was a fan favourite for standing menacingly around and then being 'killed' by a blind guy.

Fans pick weird favourites

Yet gets a **** of material how he's the greatest BH in the galaxy. Now there's a complete 180 on a character.

Yeah...extremely weird favorites.

Originally posted by Selenial
Not particularly. Shaak wins (just like she'd beat Legends Vos+Unduli) but I'm enjoying the retired life when it comes to SW debating...

Alright. I can respect that. Aurbere spoke so highly of you. It piqued my interest. Something rarely done lol.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Do I still have a chnce of redemption, Messiah?

Only if you accept Kyp as your Lord and Savior.


Originally posted by Emperordmb
Did you drop acid too?

You got the idea.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I preferd the old DC.

But u still liak me right? :O

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Only if you accept Kyp as your Lord and Savior.

Urs did that long ago.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Speaking of Ti, I find it strange given how much of a favored character she is(or well I always took it as she was anyway)...she didn't really do much in either Canon as far as notable combat wise. TFU was like her only big moment aside from the Magnaguard instance in Legends.

In Canon....her only big moment was the Geonosis battle and she wasn't even really shown.

Says the guy who sucks off foders on the daily basis.

Originally posted by Selenial
but she never did anything badly either

Ehem.

Foders ayy lmao

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Says the guy who sucks off foders on the daily basis.



Ehem.

I was just merely pointing something out. Wasn't saying she isn't impressive.

So I don't get what you're trying to accomplish by trying to insult me.

And I'm just saying you are a fan of even more insignificant characters. Shaak had a few comics, was in the movies (barely), some novels, TCW and OCW and a popular video game. And she isn't that big a fan favourite tbh.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
And I'm just saying you are a fan of even more insignificant characters. Shaak had a few comics, was in the movies (barely), some novels, TCW and OCW and a popular video game. And she isn't that big a fan favourite tbh.

Yeah I know that(though you didn't have to come across like insulting me for liking the nameless or lesser known), but I'm talking about like big combat instances she was in that made her stand out. TFU and the Magnaguard instance are the only ones I really know of.

Well I kinda always took her as a big fan favorite, but maybe that's more due to TFU bringing her around.

Just trying to corrupt you, that'd be the final nail in KMC's coffin.

Well let's take KMC for example. How many people posts here regularly? 30+ easily. Out of those 2-4 is a fan of her that I know of.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Just trying to corrupt you, that'd be the final nail in KMC's coffin.

Well let's take KMC for example. How many people posts here regularly? 30+ easily. Out of those 2-4 is a fan of her that I know of.

Well I was meaning like in a broad general fan sense, not just on KMC. But I see the point.

As for corrupting?....What exactly? I don't really care much for debating anymore either here or CV, I'm just more a source for info relating to the SW misc things if anyone needs it more than anything else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8y9bNKj7d8

Originally posted by MythLord
Urs did that long ago.

IIRC, he has Kyp below Caedus in Force - that isn't gonna cut it.

Says the guy who wasn't sure once if Kyp > Vader
Not sure how to rank Kyp and Caedus combative wise in the Force - but eaw-power wise, Kyp is solidly above Jacen.

I'm the original starter of the 2014 Kyp Durron movement. My devotion to the characters is absolute, you'd know better than to acknowledge that, Urs.

Vader....... >....... Kyp.

When Vader doesn't trip over his own arm, and starts moving black holes we can have this discussion.

I see madness seeped back in your mind DC. I should've euthanized you the last time you thought Kyp > Vader.

The guy who is in the same league as a slightly exhausted NJO Luke in raw power, is above Vader yeah
As combative Force Users, Kyp, Vader and Jacen, Kun and Revan are in the same tier, IMO.Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I'm the original starter of the 2014 Kyp Durron movement. My devotion to the characters is absolute, you'd know better than to acknowledge that, Urs. Originally posted by Ursumeles
u do not understand what i try to say

Nah he isn't. Vader impregnates Kyp.

So you basically want to say that Vader is so sexually attracted by Kyp, that he uses all the Imperial resources of the empire, only that he can create a new dick to **** Kyp?

Am I doing it right, Deronn? :^)

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I see madness seeped back in your mind DC. I should've euthanized you the last time you thought Kyp > Vader.

Always so mean to me.

But Kyp is > Vader in Force though.


@Urs: Yes, you fly with passing colors.

>Kyp has 1 feat arguably better than Vader
>Vader has 1365269780236e+35326 feats better than Kyp
>Kyp never beat anyone relevant (a usual DC argument)
>Still thinks Kyp is better

I also find it funny how you say TFU is more over the top shit than the NJO and here you are trying to wank Kyp above Vader when even Starkiller isn't

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
@Urs: Yes, you fly with passing colors. heh he

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
>Kyp has 1 feat arguably better than Vader


That's your first mistake, tbh.

- Kyp telepathically manipulating Jaina > any of Vader's telepathy.
- Kyp one-shotting a freaking Sith Leviathan while hindered before his prime >= any of Vader's feats.

I'm actually starting to see a pattern here.



Awww. You're so silly. <3



Stalemating Jaina isn't all too bad and showing vast Force superiority to her isn't too bad.






No one ever said KJA was exactly the best of EU writers, lmao.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
heh he
Yeah, that didn't come out right, lal.

Guys like Nyax didn't beat annyone of note either, bar a group of Vong. He's still really damn powerful.

You're starting to pull a Zenwolf now, lal. That "haven't beat anyone relevant" thing is just a jab at Shaak Ti's character, rather than an actual argument.

A good number of Star Wars characters haven't really faced many impressive in people in combat, relatively speaking.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
You're starting to pull a Zenwolf now, lal.
LOL
I am very possibly misunderstanding you, but I meant to compare Nyax and Kyp - we know that they're damn powerful, but they haven't beaten anyone of note. Obviously Nyax at least had a really good combat feat.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
- Kyp telepathically manipulating Jaina > any of Vader's telepathy.

Vader using Drain Knowledge on Luke who made Sidious work for getting any information from him > that.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
- Kyp one-shotting a freaking Sith Leviathan while hindered before his prime >= any of Vader's feats.

Vader ragdolling the shit out Starkiller while holding back and pre-prime > that.

I'm starting to see a pattern here

Not...really? both Sids and Vader simultaneously ripped information from Luke's mind - when did Palpatine have issues? Regardless, manipulating someone is a bit better than just stealing information from their mind.


Given Galen literally broke free of the ragdoll in like, 2 seconds, it hardly counts as such. Not including the fact Sith Leviathans were colony busters, no sold blaster bolts, and could survive in lava. Did I also mention Kyp was arguably hindered and pre-primed?

In other words: Kyp's feat is superior, lmao.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Not...really? both Sids and Vader simultaneously ripped information from Luke's mind - when did Palpatine have issues? Regardless, manipulating someone is a bit better than just stealing information from their mind.

In the novel Sidious notes Luke made him work for it.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Given Galen literally broke free of the ragdoll in like, 2 seconds, it hardly counts as such. Not including the fact Sith Leviathans were colony busters, no sold blaster bolts, and could survive in lava. Kyp's feat is superior, lmao.

And Starkiller can casually tank slaps from a Gorog and shield himself from atmospheric reentry while multitasking, and he didn't break out from it. Kyp's feat ain't better than shit.

It's a difference berween Vader 3 or 4 years before his prime, or Kyp after only a few years of training. I mean, when did this comic takes place? 15ABY? Kyp is 30 years in the order after that, lol. Very much for someone with Skywalker-like potential.

Points for Vader! There were still both attacking Luke at the same time which means his mental defenses were split, and again, manipulating someone is a good deal better than just getting info from them.



Yeah for Galen's durability! A Leviathan, who's feet is bigger than a rancor, would shit on a Gorog, btw.




Lava is hotter than reentry heat, yes. I'd argue blaster bolts are given they can melt right through steel. And yes, he did break free from Vader's grip.


_________________________________________

Kyp's raw power was stated many times to share parity with Luke Skywalker own, as shown by the fact he replicated a feat that exhausted Luke to the point he collapsed. Vader isn't more powerful than Kyp, period.

Size comparison between Kyp and that leviathan, btw.

http://static7.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/105264/4155194-8278194192-KypLe.jpg


Yep, and Kyp one-shotted that thing, like a decade or so, before the NJO.

Holy shit, after Wookipedia Kyp did that 12ABY. After one ****in year training, lmao.

What makes it even more impressive is that was Kyp's very first time even using the power, lal.

He did it using the lightning storm.

Yes, he called forth the lightning via altering the environment and channeling its power.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yes, he called forth the lightning via altering the environment and channeling its power. Correct, but manipulating a preexisting force to do a thing and generating that force yourself to do a thing and two very different actions.

On the other hand Galen Marek casually one-shotted an AT-AT, with his own power, and...

http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5191508-0209371541-51913.gif

When?

Bout 2 BBY.

Galen was stabbed by a random dude in a grocery store and finished off by a monster from another dimension. He sucks.

A low showing for Galen.