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I'm confused on this and KMC is full of highly intelligent people to help me with my question.

When does fts matter?

I am going to use Hulk as an example because if I bash him or give him props, you all don't care, any other character/characters and this thread goes off topic.

It seems like most threads either look at fts when they want too or either ignore them.

Example...if I made a Hulk vs Orion fist fight thread, people would say that it would be a challenging battle due to it, well, being Orion. Hulk has the strength, durability and power edge and based off fts, he should be able to crush Orion with ease but in this case, fts would get ignored (I've debated pages on this battle, I know first hand).

If we made a Captain Marvel vs Wonder Woman or Superman thread, people would say that either of these two is a tier above him due to fts. So on one hand we ignore fts and on another, we pay attention to fts.

So what I'm trying to figure out is, when do we ignore or pay attention to fts? If I made a Titus vs Hulk thread, would you all consider that spite even though Hulk fts of strength and durability piss on anything Titus has done.

If I made a Superman vs Odin thread, would you all consider it spite due to Superman fts of strength, speed and durability. Please let me know and let's keep this convo civil.

It gets murky when you have feats showing two characters with comparable feats.

So no, Orion may not have the lifting feats of Hulk, but he has been shown throughout his history to be a close peer to Superman and Darkseid in strength, and those two have objective strength feats surpassing Hulk.

Originally posted by Cogito
It gets murky when you have feats showing two characters with comparable feats.

So no, Orion may not have the lifting feats of Hulk, but he has been shown throughout his history to be a close peer to Superman and Darkseid in strength, and those two have objective strength feats surpassing Hulk.

Either that or they lowered Darkseid and Superman to make Orion look good. I do recall Firestorm pushing the limits of Orion's strength. It wasn't anywhere near to the amount that Superman or the Hulk have lifted. Thor has recently surpassed it by leaps and bounds as well.

Originally posted by Stoic
Either that or they lowered Darkseid and Superman to make Orion look good. I do recall Firestorm pushing the limits of Orion's strength. It wasn't anywhere near to the amount that Superman or the Hulk have lifted. Thor has recently surpassed it by leaps and bounds.


This. I'm not going to get into a debate on who's strength fts surpass who when it comes to Hulk and Superman. Orion doesn't have the fts though which is what this thread is about. He doesn't even have to be used. The question is about the overall population.

Originally posted by Stoic
Either that or they lowered Darkseid and Superman to make Orion look good. I do recall Firestorm pushing the limits of Orion's strength. It wasn't anywhere near to the amount that Superman or the Hulk have lifted. Thor has recently surpassed it by leaps and bounds.

Everyone has highs and lows. I recall generally the Firestorm feat you're talking about, but I don't remember the particular details. Even if it were very low, a single showing wouldn't erase decadeS of continuity.

And yes, we're talking about decadeS of appearances for Orion. Do you really think Superman and Darkseid were lowered in all of them to make Orion look good?

I mean, the Living Tribunal has zero lifting feats. Based on feats, Hulk has the strength, durability, speed, even skill.

But make an LT vs Hulk arm wrestling thread...and see what happens.

Originally posted by carver9
This. I'm not going to get into a debate on who's strength fts surpass who when it comes to Hulk and Superman. Orion doesn't have the fts though which is what this thread is about. He doesn't even have to be used. The question is about the overall population. But he does have the feats, matching Superman and Darkseid. He just doesn't have the objective feats that you're looking for, which is entirely different from not having feats.

Originally posted by Cogito
Everyone has highs and lows. I recall generally the Firestorm feat you're talking about, but I don't remember the particular details. Even if it were very low, a single showing wouldn't erase decadeS of continuity.

And yes, we're talking about decadeS of appearances for Orion. Do you really think Superman and Darkseid were lowered in all of them to make Orion look good?

Generally speaking, how many lifting feats does Orion actually have? I pointed out the one that I recall, but if you or anyone has any on hand please feel free to admit citations. The Hulk is the epitome of strength. He has his lows but his power set covers this. Orion on the other hand does not have dynamic strength on the level that the Hulk does, so it's not a big deal for people to say that the Hulk or Superman are stronger than him. Just wanted to put that out there in case you think that I may be low balling Orion.

Originally posted by carver9
Then how would we know if he is stronger than Herc without lifting feats? Herc has pulled manhantan without to much difficulty... what has Juggernaut lifted?



That's like saying Odin is stronger than Colossus when we all know that Colossus lifting feats>Odin.

Originally posted by Stoic
Generally speaking, how many lifting feats does Orion actually have? I pointed out the one that I recall, but if you or anyone has any on hand please feel free to admit citations. The Hulk is the epitome of strength. He has his lows but his power set covers this. Orion on the other hand does not have dynamic strength on the level that the Hulk does, so it's not a big deal for people to say that the Hulk or Superman is stronger than him. Just wanted to put the out there in case you think that I may be low balling Orion.

He doesn't have lifting feats, that's what I'm saying. He only has direct comparisons to peers that do.

I'm not arguing for or against anyone here, I'm just discussing the topic Carver raised. Orion is a great example of someone with minimal (impressive) objective feats. If you look at Marvel you could easily pull out comparable examples like Blue Marvel or even Gladiator.

It's complicated. And the answer switches occasionally.

Hulk, a character with decades of feats, has those feats to establish his credibility. Someone like Zeus doesn't have decades, but his performance against established characters like say, Hulk or Thor, help determine his level.

Hulk for all intentions and purposes is vastly stronger than Zeus for example by feats. But he's obviously not, based on combat

the question has no answer tbh because people will value whichever showing (extraneous feats or either direct combat showings or abc combat showings) they feel best supports their own case, on a case-by-case basis. that isn't a veiled shot at anyone. if i'm bored and feel like playing devil's advocate, i'm as guilty of this as anyone else at picking and choosing. in truth though, even from an objective pov, there really IS no answer. the orion/hulk comparison is as apt as any and illustrates why BOTH sides of the argument have a legitimate point.

hulk's strength feats sh!t all over orion. no one who knows anything about comics can really argue the point (like flash being faster than ss). even if orion fans (of which i am one) could name 3 hulk-style strength feats, for each of those 3 hulk might have....a dozen feats? so, by feats the comparison should be lop-sided.

but the other side can argue from the peer angle (AKA abc logic). by direct comparison orion has performed well against all of dc's top tier people and has appeared at times to even surpass the likes of darkseid.

both sides are equally valid pov's. so how do you resolve the issue? you can't. the best you can do is attempt to reasonably weigh the 2 sides and decide which carries the greater weight (no pun intended, or noticed prolly....lol). in this case, since orion doesn't have many lifting feats to go on, we're left with only the one side to really reason from. is it reasonable to say that if orion can match darkseid in strength and direct combat, even besting him on at least one occasion, he can give hulk holy hell in a fist fight?

i think it's perfectly reasonable. would hulk win a fistfight the majority of the time? certainly, but it is by no means spite, or a stomp any more than hulk would stomp thor in a fistfight.

regarding the question of whether someone is 'weakened' by writers (AKA pis) to make for a better fight? well, that's what makes the question unsolvable. if pis is claimed, then direct comparison using on-panel battles, becomes meaningless to those who claim pis is involved and so one entire pov is thrown out by one side then the argument degenerates into one of validity. and of course not everyone always agrees there WAS pis then you have a huge mess....

generally, where direct combat results are close, extraneous feats can help determine probable winners, but it boils down to what the individual deems most valuable (or what best defends their side...) combat comparisons or feats. your question can't be answered because in many cases there IS no correct answer. /shrug

Feats matter less when you are comparing within the company.

You can power-scale based off of direct showings and editorial mandates etc.

Feats matter more when comparing cross-company. Being cross-company, naturally there can't be any editorial ruling that X character from X company should be equal to Y character from Y company.

Of course, fights are also feats.

It depends on a fight to be honest.

Look at New52 Darkseid and Superman for example. Darkseid doesn't have feats like lifting the Earth for 5 days without Breaking a Sweat like Superman. But he does have the fact he physically overpowered Superman in a grapple. So we can put two and two together and assume he has greater strength.

I wouldn't say punching a character and knocking them out means your physically stronger. Maybe more powerful but not stronger. I think the best way to see strength comparisons in a fight is when two characters grapple.

Striking power will always surpass lifting feats.

imo Feats only count if you using a thread about two people from the same company. When you say Superman beats Thanos because he beat Darkseid to me that feat is irrelevant.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean, the Living Tribunal has zero lifting feats. Based on feats, Hulk has the strength, durability, speed, even skill.

But make an LT vs Hulk arm wrestling thread...and see what happens.


You're right on point. So when do we use fts?

Example, people in a thread I was just in was saying that Captain Marvel is a tier below Superman but looking at their fights, they are basically equals. Hell, Superman has even admitted this. Then we have the fts perspective to look at which someone brought up Superman being greater than Cap even though their fights show us something completely different. So, with that said, their fights are being ignored. Then I click on this thread and see a person say Orion is on Hulk's level due to his fights against Superman and Darkseid. WTF. This is why I'm lost. This ft argument is all over the place and is used only to make certain characters look weak. They then say Captain Marvel is on Thor level even though Thor fts poops all over Captain Marvel fts.

Originally posted by carver9
You're right on point. So when do we use fts?

Let me paint you a picture, except I'm too lazy to use MSPaint so you're getting words.


1) Is the result so plainly obvious that I don't need to put any thought into it?
a. Yes. See Hulk vs. LT. Proceed immediately to calling out the OP with your choice of insulting and/or derogatory terms
b. No. Use feats.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Striking power will always surpass lifting feats.
Just like IRL. Look up Marius Pudzianowski. Huge (6ft 1 320lbs), ripped, World's Strongest Man 4 or 5 times and gets his ass handed to him in MMA.

Originally posted by Cogito
Let me paint you a picture, except I'm too lazy to use MSPaint so you're getting words.


1) Is the result so plainly obvious that I don't need to put any thought into it?
a. Yes. See Hulk vs. LT. Proceed immediately to calling out the OP with your choice of insulting and/or derogatory terms
b. No. Use feats.


Please read above.

Originally posted by carver9
You're right on point. So when do we use fts?

As with all things....it depends.

Colossus as Juggernaut, for example. Based on implied power, and Colossus' and Juggy's separate feats, Juggylossus should've been waaaaay up there.

In actual fights? Less impressive.

Same with Sodam Yat. By feats, we have Daxamites = Kryptonians. Ion power. In fights? Meh.

On the other hand, we have characters like Darkseid, Orion, Gladiator, Black Bolt etc - who have more fights than lifting feats.

Originally posted by zopzop
Just like IRL. Look up Marius Pudzianowski. Huge (6ft 1 320lbs), ripped, World's Strongest Man 4 or 5 times and gets his ass handed to him in MMA.

Mariusz has done ok in MMA. He has a winning record, and this is despite a major late start and fighting people with way more experience than him.

A martial artist, no matter how good, stands a chance against a grizzly bear however.

Stats matter, seeing as there is always a limit to skill; there's only a limited number of ways to punch, kick, or react afterall.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
As with all things....it depends.

Colossus as Juggernaut, for example. Based on implied power, and Colossus' and Juggy's separate feats, Juggylossus should've been waaaaay up there.

In actual fights? Less impressive.

Same with Sodam Yat. By feats, we have Daxamites = Kryptonians. Ion power. In fights? Meh.

On the other hand, we have characters like Darkseid, Orion, Gladiator, Black Bolt etc - who have more fights than lifting feats.

Agreed on all accounts. Answer this. Let's say me and you are prepping to fight, comic characters. On one hand, you have established fts of tossing tractors with ease and on my end, I don't have a single strength ft. We fight and I hold my own. Do we ignore this fight due to you having superior showings of strength or do we accept the fight as is even though I don't have single showing of me being able to battle someone with your strength?

Originally posted by carver9
Agreed on all accounts. Answer this. Let's say me and you are prepping to fight, comic characters. On one hand, you have established fts of tossing tractors with ease and on my end, I don't have a single strength ft. We fight and I hold my own. Do we ignore this fight due to you having superior showings of strength or do we accept the fight as is even though I don't have single showing of me being able to battle someone with your strength?

Depends.

Deathstroke has tagged Flash, Aquaman, WW. All fast characters, as you yourself know.

Does that mean DS = Flash?

Originally posted by carver9
Agreed on all accounts. Answer this. Let's say me and you are prepping to fight, comic characters. On one hand, you have established fts of tossing tractors with ease and on my end, I don't have a single strength ft. We fight and I hold my own. Do we ignore this fight due to you having superior showings of strength or do we accept the fight as is even though I don't have single showing of me being able to battle someone with your strength?

It depends. Do you win the fight or not?

"Holding your own" is a vague term.

Originally posted by carver9
When does fts matter? If the feat involves Hulk? Always.
If the feat involves Superman? Never.

Any other questions I can help you with?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Depends.

Deathstroke has tagged Flash, Aquaman, WW. All fast characters, as you yourself know.

Does that mean DS = Flash?

Let's say if every time Deathstroke and Flash fight, he's able to keep pace with him. When does consistency come into play or do we still ignore this?

Originally posted by Galan007
If the feat involves Hulk? Always.
If the feat involves Superman? Never.

Any other questions I can help you with?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Striking power will always surpass lifting feats.
Tell that to Sentry/Ares and NuSuperman/NuDoomsday.

Originally posted by zopzop
Just like IRL. Look up Marius Pudzianowski. Huge (6ft 1 320lbs), ripped, World's Strongest Man 4 or 5 times and gets his ass handed to him in MMA.

Maurius doesn't know how to fight though LOL. Which is one of the largest reasons that people should look at how well a character fights over how powerful another character is, within reason of course. For example; A character that can lift 4 trillion tons, should never have to worry about a character that can lift 4 tons even if that Class 4 can fight as well as Batman (unless chi or magic are involved).

Originally posted by carver9
Let's say if every time Deathstroke and Flash fight, he's able to keep pace with him. When does consistency come into play or do we still ignore this?

DS has tagged many a character that has speed, then. Flash, Kid Flash, WW etc etc.

Would you accept it in a forum fight? He consistently does it, after all.

We have Flash's feats (I'm sure by now you're sick and tired of them, lol). Can I apply DS to it, and say, hey, Flash has outrun DEATH, several times, by casually breaking the time barrier.

DS consistently tags him.

Therefore, DS, based on their fights (ignoring Flash's feats) would speed blitz any and all characters?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
DS has tagged many a character that has speed, then. Flash, Kid Flash, WW etc etc.

Would you accept it in a forum fight? He consistently does it, after all.

We have Flash's feats (I'm sure by now you're sick and tired of them, lol). Can I apply DS to it, and say, hey, Flash has outrun DEATH, several times, by casually breaking the time barrier.

DS consistently tags him.

Therefore, DS, based on their fights (ignoring Flash's feats) would speed blitz any and all characters?

Had this same discussion with someone on CV who wanted to give Diana. Superman and Flash feats...

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Tell that to Sentry/Ares and NuSuperman/NuDoomsday.

Yep.

I think it depends on how many showings they have.

Deathstroke has plenty of showings, where, whilst he tags Flash, also has many showings where he is much slower than Flash (hit by bullets, for example).

Therefore, fights don't count as much. Feats do. Because of PIS, or WIS, or whatever, where he has to be shown to be a threat - thus, dumbing down the other side. Why else would Toyman be a fricking threat, lol.

LT? Darkseid? Fights count much more. They don't have as many appearances. ABC scaling is needed. When they enter a fight, it's a pretty damn big deal.

Captain Marvel? He has a fair few appearances. So his feats need to be taken into account. Orion? Fewer - and then, he only seems to be trotted out for fights (he IS the Dog of War, after all). So his fights count for more.

there should be a well established hierarchy for characters within company lines so I don't think feats really applies. if the person is too new then we would just have to wait and see how they compare.

things like strength and speed (quantifiable) threads should be only feats anything else would be speculation. because someone always going to make the argument that "they weren't full strength or holding back".

if author contradicts the feat on panel I'd throw it out altogether because you never know what they intended and what the editor put out.

abc feats can be used in cross company fight threads as is this is the only way to compare a characters unquantifiable skills. this is due to the nature of the comic companies just being in different universes with different physics/rules.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Tell that to Sentry/Ares and NuSuperman/NuDoomsday.

Explain

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I think it depends on how many showings they have.

Deathstroke has plenty of showings, where, whilst he tags Flash, also has many showings where he is much slower than Flash (hit by bullets, for example).

Therefore, fights don't count as much. Feats do. Because of PIS, or WIS, or whatever, where he has to be shown to be a threat - thus, dumbing down the other side. Why else would Toyman be a fricking threat, lol.

LT? Darkseid? Fights count much more. They don't have as many appearances. ABC scaling is needed. When they enter a fight, it's a pretty damn big deal.

Captain Marvel? He has a fair few appearances. So his feats need to be taken into account. Orion? Fewer - and then, he only seems to be trotted out for fights (he IS the Dog of War, after all). So his fights count for more.

So if someone say Superman and Hulk is well above Captain Marvel based off fts (that Cap rarely have due to his low appearances in comics), do we accept that or do we ignore it due to Captain Marvel proving he can hang with/beat top tiers? Another example, Gladiator speed, strength, and durability showings far surpass Captain Marvel but I've seen people give Cap the majority against him. Why are they doing this when Gladiator fts piss on Captain Marvel?

Originally posted by carver9
So if someone say Superman and Hulk is well above Captain Marvel based off fts (that Cap rarely have due to his low appearances in comics), do we accept that or do we ignore it due to Captain Marvel proving he can hang with/beat top tiers? Another example, Gladiator speed, strength, and durability showings far surpass Captain Marvel but I've seen people give Cap the majority against him. Why are they doing this when Gladiator fts piss on Captain Marvel?

You're not understanding my point.

It depends on the number of showings they have, total.

Billy has quite a few showings. So his feats need to be taken into account, more than his fights.

Gladiator does not (relative to Billy). So his fights count for much more than his feats. He is the same like Orion, who has even fewer showings still.

Hulk has TONS of showings. So his fights and feats are all equal(ish) in weighting.

IOW: if a character has very few appearances (LT, In-Betweener, Orion, Galactus) then their fights are a better gauge of their power.

The more showings a character has, and the more they start interacting with other characters, the more their fights get diluted. Lobo is a good example, as are the Lanterns. You yourself acknowledge, in team books Lobo is less impressive. Lanterns are terrible against bricks. That's when their feats become more of a gauge, where writers don't have to dilute them. Batman and Cap are also good examples of this.

Carver, you've been on KMC for nearly 13 years. How can you still be confused? sneer

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Explain

Both those instances show strength factoring in more heavily than striking.

Ares was able to take Punches from Sentry with nothing to show for it but a bloody lip. What he couldn't take however was Sentry's strength which was shown when Sentry ripped him in half.

Same thing with Nu52 Superman and Doomsday. Doomsday was able to take Superman's hits, yet physically wasn't able to match his strength. It ended with Doomsday getting ripped in half.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Both those instances show strength factoring in more heavily than striking.

Ares was able to take Punches from Sentry with nothing to show for it but a bloody lip. What he couldn't take however was Sentry's strength which was shown when Sentry ripped him in half.

Same thing with Nu52 Superman and Doomsday. Doomsday was able to take Superman's hits, yet physically wasn't able to match his strength. It ended with Doomsday getting ripped in half.

I think you should reread those fights

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I think you should reread those fights

If you have something to mention about them, mention it.

Cause as far as I'm concerned it shows Nu52 Superman is stronger than Nu52 Doomsday.

And Sentry is stronger than Ares.

I never understood why trading blows with someone like Superman and Wonder Woman do would suggest comparable strength. When instances happen where they grapple and Superman shows dominance as well as having better strength fts than Diana. It just doesn't make sense to call them strength peers.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
If you have something to mention about them, mention it.

Cause as far as I'm concerned it shows Nu52 Superman is stronger than Nu52 Doomsday.

And Sentry is stronger than Ares.

I never understood why trading blows with someone like Superman and Wonder Woman do would suggest comparable strength. When instances happen where they grapple and Superman shows dominance as well as having better strength fts than Diana. It just doesn't make sense to call them strength peers.

Sentry/Ares aren't comparable. Dont get y u brought them up. He needed an axe to even score a hit

I can't remember the details on Supes/DD because it was a forgettable arc...but his strength is plot driven. He's as strong as he needs to be.


Anyway it doesnt matter how many mountains, buildings, planets someone lifts if a certain villian comes along with zero feats in that regards they will put them on their ass..period. I can't think of any villian with any significant lifting feats but id place money on Thanos over Hulk anyday. It's right there on the panel

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Sentry/Ares aren't comparable. Dont get y u brought them up. He needed an axe to even score a hit

I can't remember the details on Supes/DD because it was a forgettable arc...but his strength is plot driven. He's as strong as he needs to be.


Anyway it doesnt matter how many mountains, buildings, planets someone lifts if a certain villian comes along with zero feats in that regards they will put them on their ass..period. I can't think of any villian with any significant lifting feats but id place money on Thanos over Hulk anyday. It's right there on the panel

Ares fights with an axe, when did Ares fail to harm Sentry via fist?
It sounds speculative. The NuSuperman thing sounds like an excuse, Plot strength never helped him against NuDarkseid. I think you missed my entire point completely.

I said those lifting strength feats are impressive, but the only way a character is stronger than another is
A) If they have better lifting feats
or
B) If they physically overpower comparable/the character

Like I said before Darkseid doesn't have any feats lifting the Earth, yet he physically overpowered Superman. So it's safe to say he's stronger. It's putting 2 and 2 together.

What I'm also saying is trading punches with someone doesn't make you as strong as them. It's either personal lifting feats or feats with grappling to determine the case.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You're not understanding my point.

It depends on the number of showings they have, total.

Billy has quite a few showings. So his feats need to be taken into account, more than his fights.

Gladiator does not (relative to Billy). So his fights count for much more than his feats. He is the same like Orion, who has even fewer showings still.

Hulk has TONS of showings. So his fights and feats are all equal(ish) in weighting.

IOW: if a character has very few appearances (LT, In-Betweener, Orion, Galactus) then their fights are a better gauge of their power.

The more showings a character has, and the more they start interacting with other characters, the more their fights get diluted. Lobo is a good example, as are the Lanterns. You yourself acknowledge, in team books Lobo is less impressive. Lanterns are terrible against bricks. That's when their feats become more of a gauge, where writers don't have to dilute them. Batman and Cap are also good examples of this.

Originally posted by Badabing
Carver, you've been on KMC for nearly 13 years. How can you still be confused? sneer

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
What I'm also saying is trading punches with someone doesn't make you as strong as them. It's either personal lifting feats or feats with grappling to determine the case.

I disagree. Lifting feats dont mean shit. Weights dont fight back.

Originally posted by Badabing
Carver, you've been on KMC for nearly 13 years. How can you still be confused? sneer

How can YOU be confused enough to ask, Carver, this question?

sneer

Originally posted by DarkSaint85



Read through the thread. Everyone isn't on the same page.

Originally posted by Badabing
Carver, you've been on KMC for nearly 13 years. How can you still be confused? sneer

... this thread still isn't helping me.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
How can YOU be confused enough to ask, Carver, this question?

sneer


Hulk left pinky toe>>>>>>Superman entire body.

Originally posted by carver9
Read through the thread. Everyone isn't on the same page.

So?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So?


You posting that made it appear as if everyone is on the same page but me when overall, they are not. Is Cap and Superman physical peers? Yes or no

Originally posted by carver9
You posting that made it appear as if everyone is on the same page but me when overall, they are not. Is Cap and Superman physical peers? Yes or no

Erm, no, it was my opinion - which was a direct answer to your question. I wasn't sure if you had seen it, and if you had, whether you agreed with it.

And no. Cap has enough showings to show that his fights are not the only thing he has going for him. He has his feats as well.

Just like Deathstroke and Batman, who consistently tag speedsters in their fights, have their feats to tell us that they are not FTL.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Erm, no, it was my opinion - which was a direct answer to your question. I wasn't sure if you had seen it, and if you had, whether you agreed with it.

And no. Cap has enough showings to show that his fights are not the only thing he has going for him. He has his feats as well.

Just like Deathstroke and Batman, who consistently tag speedsters in their fights, have their feats to tell us that they are not FTL.

So we ignore statements like this?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/100692/2038250-superman_captain_marvel_equals.jpg

Also, you are famous for saying a person's durability doesn't decrease, even while sneak attacked. You do know Cap has knocked Superman out twice, right? The point is, sometimes you have to look past fts. They are equals. If we looked only at fts, no one on Earth is on Hulk's level. No one.

Originally posted by carver9
I'm confused on this and KMC is full of highly intelligent people to help me with my question.

When does fts matter?

I am going to use Hulk as an example because if I bash him or give him props, you all don't care, any other character/characters and this thread goes off topic.

It seems like most threads either look at fts when they want too or either ignore them.

Example...if I made a Hulk vs Orion fist fight thread, people would say that it would be a challenging battle due to it, well, being Orion. Hulk has the strength, durability and power edge and based off fts, he should be able to crush Orion with ease but in this case, fts would get ignored (I've debated pages on this battle, I know first hand).

If we made a Captain Marvel vs Wonder Woman or Superman thread, people would say that either of these two is a tier above him due to fts. So on one hand we ignore fts and on another, we pay attention to fts.

So what I'm trying to figure out is, when do we ignore or pay attention to fts? If I made a Titus vs Hulk thread, would you all consider that spite even though Hulk fts of strength and durability piss on anything Titus has done.

If I made a Superman vs Odin thread, would you all consider it spite due to Superman fts of strength, speed and durability. Please let me know and let's keep this convo civil. My interpretation of your question is that this is not so much a feats issue as a debater issue. Generally, people want their favorite character to win, so depending on their degree of bias they will emphasize feats -- especially outliers -- or lowball opponent feats, this also dependent on the combatants' powersets, performance histories and hero personalities.

Open powersets are especially tough to figure because this intros the question: can abilities never shown but logically inferred be used?

For myself, I look at fights as if I were writing the comic, so context is also important. IMO, ultimately it's a judgment call, an overall gut sense involving feats, as opposed to a strict, point-by-point feat analysis.

Originally posted by carver9
So we ignore statements like this?

Also, you are famous for saying a person's durability doesn't decrease, even while sneak attacked. You do know Cap has knocked Superman out twice, right? The point is, sometimes you have to look past fts. They are equals. If we looked only at fts, no one on Earth is on Hulk's level. No one.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/54/da/50/54da50168a0de3d20047c5613b1984b4.jpg

Wonder Woman. Sneak attacks an injured Batman OUTSIDE of his armour. Fails to put him down. And yes, she's mind controlled - but she's smashing him THROUGH concrete floors. Dropping from from height. Hitting him with enough force to blast through bulletproof glass.

Does this mean Batman is soloing the entire Street tier? WW had the God of War amp at this time, too.

Originally posted by Mindship
IMO, ultimately it's a judgment call, an overall gut sense involving feats, as opposed to a strict, point-by-point feat analysis.

This is why I am partial to the CBR way of doing things when it comes to feats.

What's that?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What's that?

Judge characters based on their high end consistent feats. So no feats of Superman being harmed by a gas station explosion to be used. Or feats of Superman punching God himself in the face to be used.

Originally posted by Surtur
Judge characters based on their high end consistent feats. So no feats of Superman being harmed by a gas station explosion to be used. Or feats of Superman punching God himself in the face to be used.

So what happens when someone like Darkseid, or the LT is used in a thread?

They have no feats - although, personally, I view fights as feats...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So what happens when someone like Darkseid, or the LT is used in a thread?

They have no feats - although, personally, I view fights as feats...

👍.

I always go by averages

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/54/da/50/54da50168a0de3d20047c5613b1984b4.jpg

Wonder Woman. Sneak attacks an injured Batman OUTSIDE of his armour. Fails to put him down. And yes, she's mind controlled - but she's smashing him THROUGH concrete floors. Dropping from from height. Hitting him with enough force to blast through bulletproof glass.

Does this mean Batman is soloing the entire Street tier? WW had the God of War amp at this time, too.





Why are you clinging to Batman when we know he is a walking hax? He has kicked God in the face. Let's not focus on Batman and squirrel Girl, let's use characters outside of this. Now can you stop avoiding my questions with Batman and answer it please.

Originally posted by carver9
Why are you clinging to Batman when we know he is a walking hax? He has kicked God in the face. Let's not focus on Batman and squirrel Girl, let's use characters outside of this. Now can you stop avoiding my questions with Batman and answer it please.

Not avoiding.

You're saying fights are important - more than feats.

What happens with Squirrel Girl (who has no feats, but plenty of fights) and Batman?

Deathstroke?

These are exactly answering your question. They have no 'feats' to suggest they can hang with the WWs and Thanoses, and Dooms, but they have fights to say yes, they can.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Not avoiding.

You're saying fights are important - more than feats.

What happens with Squirrel Girl (who has no feats, but plenty of fights) and Batman?

Deathstroke?

These are exactly answering your question. They have no 'feats' to suggest they can hang with the WWs and Thanoses, and Dooms, but they have fights to say yes, they can.

That's not what I am saying. I accept fights more than anything. My question to you was, where does Captain Marvel compare to Superman or even Wonder Woman. Both these characters have pulled moons and Earth together; Cap doesn't share this luxury. Is Cap on their level. Please answer this question without throwing Captain America, Squirrel Girl, and Batman into this.

Originally posted by carver9
That's not what I am saying. I accept fights more than anything. My question to you was, where does Captain Marvel compare to Superman or even Wonder Woman. Both these characters have pulled moons and Earth together; Cap doesn't share this luxury. Is Cap on their level. Please answer this question without throwing Captain America, Squirrel Girl, and Batman into this.

Why don't you accept Cap America, Squirrel Girl, Bats etc?

They have the fights to show they can hang with WW, Thanos, Hulk, Doom etc. Just like Cap Billy has the fights to show he can hang.

They don't, however, have the luxury of pulling moons or whatever. Just like Cap.

Are they on WW's level? Thanos'? If not, why not?

Is it because you think their fights with WW etc are.....PIS? That their opponents were lowered, to make for an exciting/fun story?

If so, why?

Is it because they lack the feats?

I am helping you, step by step, to answer your question.

You are asking for help understanding, and here I am. And yet, you want to argue. Do you want to learn or not????

Or is this just a thinly veiled bait thread to further your agenda?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why don't you accept Cap America, Squirrel Girl, Bats etc?

They have the fights to show they can hang with WW, Thanos, Hulk, Doom etc. Just like Cap Billy has the fights to show he can hang.

They don't, however, have the luxury of pulling moons or whatever. Just like Cap.

Are they on WW's level? Thanos'? If not, why not?

Is it because you think their fights with WW etc are.....PIS? That their opponents were lowered, to make for an exciting/fun story?

If so, why?

Is it because they lack the feats?

I am helping you, step by step, to answer your question.

You are asking for help understanding, and here I am. And yet, you want to argue. Do you want to learn or not????

Or is this just a thinly veiled bait thread to further your agenda?

I'm asking you a question not surrounded by characters based off plot...character plot. I guess it will not be answered, so I'm leaving it be. My answer mentally with these characters are already there. Yes, Cap is on their level. I was trying to see where your mind was at.

Originally posted by carver9
I'm asking you a question not surrounded by characters based off plot...character plot. I guess it will not be answered, so I'm leaving it be. My answer mentally with these characters are already there. Yes, Cap is on their level. I was trying to see where your mind was at.

Based on what, Cap's fights? But then, how do you know that they are not driven by plot? They're not real, you know. Writers don't sit down with a computer model, feed their stats in and write accordingly.

If the plot calls for Supes to shake Cap's hand, and they both acknowledge each other as peers - that is what will happen.

If the plot calls for a bloodlusted GoW WW to sneak attack an injured Bats and not kill (or even KO) him, then that's what will happen.

But, it looks like a bait thread, where you tried to trip people up - but no one was, alas.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Based on what, Cap's fights? But then, how do you know that they are not driven by plot? They're not real, you know. Writers don't sit down with a computer model, feed their stats in and write accordingly.

If the plot calls for Supes to shake Cap's hand, and they both acknowledge each other as peers - that is what will happen.

If the plot calls for a bloodlusted GoW WW to sneak attack an injured Bats and not kill (or even KO) him, then that's what will happen.

But, it looks like a bait thread, where you tried to trip people up - but no one was, alas.

Based off fights, yes.

I think we are done here because you're on the verge of crying again and I don't have time to Pat grown men on the back. I didn't ask you to comment in this thread so if you thought (which it isn't) it was a bait thread, you shouldn't have posted in it.

Originally posted by carver9
Based off fights, yes.

I think we are done here because you're on the verge of crying again and I don't have time to Pat grown men on the back. I didn't ask you to comment in this thread so if you thought (which it isn't) it was a bait thread, you shouldn't have posted in it.

Based off fights - are you trying to say comic fights aren't plot driven?

Well, you said you were confused, and was asking for help (OP):
Originally posted by carver9
I'm confused on this and KMC is full of highly intelligent people to help me with my question.

Then said your mind was already made up:
Originally posted by carver9
My answer mentally with these characters are already there.

So....you kinda snitched on yourself, lol.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Based off fights - are you trying to say comic fights aren't plot driven?

Well, you said you were confused, and was asking for help (OP):


Then said your mind was already made up:


So....you kinda snitched on yourself, lol.

Me being confused doesn't take away from me having my own thoughts on the topic. I have been debating on here for 13 + yrs ya know...lol.

My mind is made up about the CHARACTERS, not the topic, Judge Judy.

With that said, since you're getting off topic, cry baby, I'll respond to others instead of wasting energy on someone who goals are to dissect everything I say.

Carver, I will provide the DEFINITIVE answer to your question.

EXHIBIT A- Sungod VERSUS Hulk

http://68.media.tumblr.com/276545364325c19041d42a9d87b88d2e/tumblr_n7uv4mDNba1s9ufo0o6_1280.png

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111142086/4242422-1244583880-tumbl.png

Here, Sungod, clearly displays his superiority over the Hulk in a way that NO ONE can dispute.

EXHIBIT B- Hyperion VERSUS HULK

This provides the MOST DEFINITIVE proof on how to apply both feats and fights.

Here, Hyperion, Dominates, Hulk, to the point where......

HYPERION PUNCHES THE GAMMA RADIATION OUT OF THE HULK.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/39/dd/0e/39dd0e8cad0365706797696eb144eaf9.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111197929/4680501-hulk+vs+hyperion6.jpg


As with, Sungod, this CLEARLY places, Hyperion, above The Hulk

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/117763/3050149-hyperion.jpg

I hope this answers your question, Carver!

Have a great weekend!

Originally posted by carver9
Me being confused doesn't take away from me having my own thoughts on the topic. I have been debating on here for 13 + yrs ya know...lol.

My mind is made up about the CHARACTERS, not the topic, Judge Judy.

With that said, since you're getting off topic, cry baby, I'll respond to others instead of wasting energy on someone whos goals are to dissect everything I say.

Hey now:

Originally posted by carver9
let's keep this convo civil.

Name-calling? All I did was respond to a thread you created on a public forum. You responded to me, and I kept the conversation going.

I don't know why you're suddenly name-calling, and saying I'm off topic, when all I am doing is quoting your own things. In your own thread.

Fights are plot-driven.

Reported.

@LOB

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hey now:



Name-calling? All I did was respond to a thread you created on a public forum. You responded to me, and I kept the conversation going.

I don't know why you're suddenly name-calling, and saying I'm off topic, when all I am doing is quoting your own things. In your own thread.

Fights are plot-driven.

Reported.

Cry baby is aggressive name calling? Gotcha. We are done.

Originally posted by carver9
Cry baby is aggressive name calling? Gotcha. We are done.

Where did I say aggressive?

Please quote me.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Carver, I will provide the DEFINITIVE answer to your question.

EXHIBIT A- Sungod VERSUS Hulk

http://68.media.tumblr.com/276545364325c19041d42a9d87b88d2e/tumblr_n7uv4mDNba1s9ufo0o6_1280.png

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111142086/4242422-1244583880-tumbl.png

Here, Sungod, clearly displays his superiority over the Hulk in a way that NO ONE can dispute.

EXHIBIT B- Hyperion VERSUS HULK

This provides the MOST DEFINITIVE proof on how to apply both feats and fights.

Here, Hyperion, Dominates, Hulk, to the point where......

HYPERION PUNCHES THE GAMMA RADIATION OUT OF THE HULK.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/39/dd/0e/39dd0e8cad0365706797696eb144eaf9.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111197929/4680501-hulk+vs+hyperion6.jpg


As with, Sungod, this CLEARLY places, Hyperion, above The Hulk

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/117763/3050149-hyperion.jpg

I hope this answers your question, Carver!

Have a great weekend!

Lol

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Where did I say aggressive?

Please quote me.

I think you should stop replying to me. Move on bro.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Lol

I can't even argue with him on that one. That was amazing.

Originally posted by carver9
@LOB

As the, KING OF CANON. I am ALWAYS here to teach, Carver!

Will do.

I just am open when I report someone. As you couldn't back up your claim that I called it 'aggressive name-calling', I added it to the report list.

Fights are also feats.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Fights are also feats.

Pretty much.

Saint don't report him it's childish. Carver was obviously fishing. Let it go

Great job lob u could've saved us several pages of a one sided discussion.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Will do.

I just am open when I report someone. As you couldn't back up your claim that I called it 'aggressive name-calling', I added it to the report list.


Hhhhhmmm...I probably should've used that report button during the time you name called me. You don't have to worry about me ever replying to you again just to save you energy from reporting.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Fights are also feats.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Saint don't report him it's childish. Carver was obviously fishing. Let it go

Great job lob u could've saved us several pages of a one sided discussion.

My question was honest though and I enjoyed the path it was going. It's ok, I resolved that problem.

LOB post was brilliant.

Originally posted by carver9
My question was honest though and I enjoyed the path it was going. It's ok, I resolved that problem.

LOB post was brilliant.

Not saying you werent honest hun. Ijs you SHOULD have know the answer to your own question. It's like comics 101

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Saint don't report him it's childish. Carver was obviously fishing. Let it go

Great job lob u could've saved us several pages of a one sided discussion.

Meh, I've tried engaging with him in an open and polite conversation, and it doesn't work.

Yes, I've placed him on ignore, but that does not stop the fishing and baiting he does - for too long, a lot of what he does just flies by, just because people cannot be bothered to use that report button.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Not saying you werent honest hun. Ijs you SHOULD have know the answer to your own question. It's like comics 101

In this one thread, evveryone answers are all over the place. This is the reason I made the thread so that we can get to something more concrete. Not to make one person mad. At the end of the day, people were actually coming in here answering the thread topic. One person got angry over something that was goiing well and ruined it. Dark is a nice guy but we clash. I think it would be better if the both of us just stopped communicating with each other entirely. I have nothing against him at all.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I disagree. Lifting feats dont mean shit. Weights dont fight back.

It's not about weights fighting back. It's about being physically stronger and having feats to show for it. Again your not following me, I'm not saying having lifting feats is the only way you can show your stronger, if you are shown overpowering a character in a fight then that's also a factor.

The reason we know characters like Superman are physically stronger than the rest of the JL without fighting them is because of his lifting feats. The reason we know Darkseid is stronger than Superman is because his fights where he physically overpowers Superman.


Punch, Kick, Tank. Doesn't display equivalent strength.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Meh, I've tried engaging with him in an open and polite conversation, and it doesn't work.

Yes, I've placed him on ignore, but that does not stop the fishing and baiting he does - for too long, a lot of what he does just flies by, just because people cannot be bothered to use that report button.

Originally posted by carver9
In this one thread, evveryone answers are all over the place. This is the reason I made the thread so that we can get to something more concrete. Not to make one person mad. At the end of the day, people were actually coming in here answering the thread topic. One person got angry over something that was goiing well and ruined it. Dark is a nice guy but we clash. I think it would be better if the both of us just stopped communicating with each other entirely. I have nothing against him at all.

U 2 are ghey af. U sound like u just broke up or something. Get your dicks out of each others asses and stop being pussies.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
It's not about weights fighting back. It's about being physically stronger and having feats to show for it. Again your not following me, I'm not saying having lifting feats is the only way you can show your stronger, if you are shown overpowering a character in a fight then that's also a factor.

The reason we know characters like Superman are physically stronger than the rest of the JL without fighting them is because of his lifting feats. The reason we know Darkseid is stronger than Superman is because his fights where he physically overpowers Superman.


Punch, Kick, Tank. Doesn't display equivalent strength.

I get what you're saying. But i keep telling u lifting feats dont mean squat. Beast has been shown to uproot trees, lift tons of rock and toss objects for miles yet despite his superhuman lifting feats he is less than nearly EVERY street level character. Grifter, Castle, Widow, Jason Todd damn near any one of those would take him for a maj. Y? Because fights matter, cheese dont.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
U 2 are ghey af. U sound like u just broke up or something. Get your dicks out of each others asses and stop being pussies.







You're the best sin. I think everything has been resolved.

I also agree that fights matter more than lifting fts.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
U 2 are ghey af. U sound like u just broke up or something. Get your dicks out of each others asses and stop being pussies.



I get what you're saying. But i keep telling u lifting feats dont mean squat. Beast has been shown to uproot trees, lift tons of rock and toss objects for miles yet despite his superhuman lifting feats he is less than nearly EVERY street level character. Grifter, Castle, Widow, Jason Todd damn near any one of those would take him for a maj. Y? Because fights matter, cheese dont.

As if I give a flying fart what your opinion on this is

Example would be...to my recollection, Orion has a single lifting ft and that was lifting an arc. He lifted it until Firestorm turned it into lead...

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11118/111188740/4528425-0799360147-fs124.jpg

And then he trapped him in titanium. Like I've said, this is the only strength ft I'm aware of from Orion. With that said, Orion has matched top tiers in combat and even defeated Darkseid. Which one do we hold as evidence for the character? His lifting fts or his combat showings?

Then, as an example, we have Squirrel Girl, Batman, Cap America, Deathstroke etc.

All who have regularly defeated stronger foes, yet don't have the lifting feats their foes have.

But we chalk those up to PIS, or ignore them completely. Seems a bit of a double standard here. 'oh, its Batman, he's hax'.

But....fights over feats.

@ this page.

Originally posted by carver9
Example would be...to my recollection, Orion has a single lifting ft and that was lifting an arc. He lifted it until Firestorm turned it into lead...

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11118/111188740/4528425-0799360147-fs124.jpg

And then he trapped him in titanium. Like I've said, this is the only strength ft I'm aware of from Orion. With that said, Orion has matched top tiers in combat and even defeated Darkseid. Which one do we hold as evidence for the character? His lifting fts or his combat showings?

You're asking which matters more in a versus scenario...a lifting feat or a combat feat? In a fighting situation which is more important a non fighting example or a fighting example? Hypothetically speaking whats more viable someone doing something related to what you're asking or someone doing the exact opposite? If i wanted to see whats a more effective way of shooting myself in the face would i google examples of people shooting themselves in the face or would i watch porn?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Saint don't report him it's childish. Carver was obviously fishing. Let it go

Great job lob u could've saved us several pages of a one sided discussion.

Originally posted by carver9
My question was honest though and I enjoyed the path it was going. It's ok, I resolved that problem.

LOB post was brilliant.

As, THE KING OF CANON, it is both my job and responsibility to enlighten my KMC brethren!

Originally posted by -Pr-
@ this page.

Sin and I are still madly in love and lust.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Sin and I are still madly in love and lust.

https://68.media.tumblr.com/6712367cf8e33b9c5643ae39e11f1196/tumblr_inline_ojkro0L2iH1qbhm7a_500.gif

I'll hold you back from beating up on carver, anytime.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
You're asking which matters more in a versus scenario...a lifting feat or a combat feat? In a fighting situation which is more important a non fighting example or a fighting example? Hypothetically speaking whats more viable someone doing something related to what you're asking or someone doing the exact opposite? If i wanted to see whats a more effective way of shooting myself in the face would i google examples of people shooting themselves in the face or would i watch porn?


I already know the answer. I focus on combat showings but I'm trying to see if others are on the same page.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
As, THE KING OF CANON, it is both my job and responsibility to enlighten my KMC brethren!

On false information.

Originally posted by carver9
I already know the answer. I focus on combat showings but I'm trying to see if others are on the same page.

As long as you don't focus on combat showings to the point that it's at the expense of other showings, that's fine.

This is an easy issue to resolve.
When using comparative feats against other characters (abc logic) then it should be assumed that the characters were operating at average levels in that comic (unless other evidence exists). For example, let's assume Superman's typical average strength is around 10,000 tons. Anyone that matches him in a comic, with no known upper bounds to their strength, then we can assume they are equal to Superman's average.

It by no means imply that they have Superman's top objective feats. So the statement, "since Orion matched Superman and since Superman once lifted the Earth then Orion can lift the Earth" is extremely false.

A character's feats can be used to HELP establish an average in order to use abc logic.

With that said, IMO Orion is a peer to Hulk in strength on average. So other factors would be considered who wins a particular kind of fight.

Originally posted by h1a8
This is an easy issue to resolve.
When using comparative feats against other characters (abc logic) then it should be assumed that the characters were operating at average levels in that comic (unless other evidence exists). For example, let's assume Superman's typical average strength is around 10,000 tons. Anyone that matches him in a comic, with no known upper bounds to their strength, then we can assume they are equal to Superman's average.

It by no means imply that they have Superman's top objective feats. So the statement, "since Orion matched Superman and since Superman once lifted the Earth then Orion can lift the Earth" is extremely false.

A character's feats can be used to HELP establish an average in order to use abc logic.

With that said, IMO Orion is a peer to Hulk in strength on average. So other factors would be considered who wins a particular kind of fight.

So how would we know if someone fought Superman at his best? It's not like Superman lifted a planet before facing Doomsday. So are we to say that Doomsday fought an average Superman?

Originally posted by Sin I AM




I get what you're saying. But i keep telling u lifting feats dont mean squat. Beast has been shown to uproot trees, lift tons of rock and toss objects for miles yet despite his superhuman lifting feats he is less than nearly EVERY street level character. Grifter, Castle, Widow, Jason Todd damn near any one of those would take him for a maj. Y? Because fights matter, cheese dont.

If a physically stronger character grabs hold of a physically weaker one that could decide a fight right there.
Look at Bane vs Any Robin for example.
I'm not saying physical strength is the end all of fights. I'm saying it's a factor that pops up when a stronger character grabs hold of a weaker one.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
If a physically stronger character grabs hold of a physically weaker one that could decide a fight right there.
Look at Bane vs Any Robin for example.
I'm not saying physical strength is the end all of fights. I'm saying it's a factor that pops up when a stronger character grabs hold of a weaker one.

Y would a physically weaker opponent allow that? Plus there isn't a Robin alive that could match Bane in ma so your point is moot. He's above them physically and skill wise.

A good example is Herc/Thor. They are rough equals stat wise but Herc strikes harder, he's a far better fighter. Thor relies TOO heavily on mjolnir. Theyve dedicated his current arc to just how worthless he is without it...it doesn't matter how many Serpents you lift or how many cities you pick up if your punches dont pack that power you will get dropped. Hulk on the other hand will lift mountains all day and still floor you with a punch...he's the exception along with a few others

Do you really think that in a hand to hand fight, Beast would get stomped by people like Castle and Jason Todd?

Originally posted by -Pr-
As long as you don't focus on combat showings to the point that it's at the expense of other showings, that's fine.



Otherwise, Squirrel Girl, Batman, Cap, Deathstroke all dominate. Iron Fist took Hiroim's punches. Shang Chi fought evenly with Red Hulk.

Yet, we're meant to disregard them as 'haxx', 'outliers', 'PIS'.

Why?

Because they don't have the feats to support their combat showings.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Do you really think that in a hand to hand fight, Beast would get stomped by people like Castle and Jason Todd?

Phuck yes! Castle would obliterate him. Todd would skin him and they are mid streets imo. Move up one notch to high street and Cap would one shot him and it wouldn't even be considered pis.

Originally posted by -Pr-
As long as you don't focus on combat showings to the point that it's at the expense of other showings, that's fine.

Agreed. There is a time when yes, lifting etc...does decide a fight but when you have fights like Hulk vs Konvikt, Superman vs Captain Marvel, Colossus vs Ulik, that is when a lil common sense come into play. Strength fts will not decide a battle between Hulk and Konvikt. Hulk fts crap all over Konvikt but his battles prove he could possibly beat Hulk. Superman vs Captain marvel. Superman fts crap all over Captain Marvel but we know they are equals. Colossus vs Ulik. Colossus fts doo doo all over Ulik fts when it comes to lifting etc, but we know Ulik would curb him. Hope you understand what I am saying.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Phuck yes! Castle would obliterate him. Todd would skin him and they are mid streets imo. Move up one notch to high street and Cap would one shot him and it wouldn't even be considered pis.

That just feels... Wrong, to me. Both that it wouldn't happen, and that even if it would, it shouldn't. Maybe I'm in the minority, but that's me.

Originally posted by carver9
Agreed. There is a time when yes, lifting etc...does decide a fight but when you have fights like Hulk vs Konvikt, Superman vs Captain Marvel, Colossus vs Ulik, that is when a lil common sense come into play. Strength fts will not decide a battle between Hulk and Konvikt. Hulk fts crap all over Konvikt but his battles prove he could possibly beat Hulk. Superman vs Captain marvel. Superman fts crap all over Captain Marvel but we know they are equals. Colossus vs Ulik. Colossus fts doo doo all over Ulik fts when it comes to lifting etc, but we know Ulik would curb him. Hope you understand what I am saying.

lol those are some shitty examples, to be fair.

Originally posted by -Pr-
That just feels... Wrong, to me. Both that it wouldn't happen, and that even if it would, it shouldn't. Maybe I'm in the minority, but that's me.



lol those are some shitty examples, to be fair.

What in the world. Those examples was on point.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Phuck yes! Castle would obliterate him. Todd would skin him and they are mid streets imo. Move up one notch to high street and Cap would one shot him and it wouldn't even be considered pis. That's crazy. In h2h with no gear beast should beat Castle comfortably. Todd would give a better fight but still lose.
Beast is more than 10x stronger, more durable, more agile, and just as fast (is not faster).

Originally posted by carver9
So how would we know if someone fought Superman at his best? It's not like Superman lifted a planet before facing Doomsday. So are we to say that Doomsday fought an average Superman?

H1.

Originally posted by carver9
What in the world. Those examples was on point.

No, they weren't. Colossus and Ulik aren't even in the same tiers. There's absolutely no reason to even compare the two.

Superman and Marvel? Superman has him beat in fights and in non-combat showings.

Is this thread not supposed to be about characters that are more ambiguous?

and el oh ****ing el at using Konvikt and Hulk together.

Originally posted by -Pr-
That just feels... Wrong, to me. Both that it wouldn't happen, and that even if it would, it shouldn't. Maybe I'm in the minority, but that's me.



lol those are some shitty examples, to be fair.

Im not saying it's right Raoul ijs Beast sucks ass at h2h

Originally posted by h1a8
That's crazy. In h2h with no gear beast should beat Castle comfortably. Todd would give a better fight but still lose.
Beast is more than 10x stronger, more durable, more agile, and just as fast (is not faster).

Make the thread. Castle or Todd or Grayson or Rogers or Crossbones or Daredevil or Ninjak or Green Arrow vs Hank Mccoy no gear h2h.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Mariusz has done ok in MMA. He has a winning record, and this is despite a major late start and fighting people with way more experience than him.

Originally posted by -Pr-
No, they weren't. Colossus and Ulik aren't even in the same tiers. There's absolutely no reason to even compare the two.

Superman and Marvel? Superman has him beat in fights and in non-combat showings.

Is this thread not supposed to be about characters that are more ambiguous?

and el oh ****ing el at using Konvikt and Hulk together.

You're missing the point though. The point isn't about tiers, I'm talking about fts. Colossus strength fts outweighs Ulik but Ulik fights shows him as being superior.

At the end of the day, they are equals though. Let's rid this sentence of Cap and Supes, I don't want to discuss those two.

Hulk and Konvikt is a great comparison for this thread. Hulk strength, durability, and speed outweighs Konvikts...the only reason we know these two would be debatable is based off Konvikt showing against the JLA.

Originally posted by carver9
but Ulik fights shows him as being superior

Ha, no.

Ulik fights show him getting stung by a bullet and losing his balance and a fall KTFO'ing him.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Ha, no.

Ulik fights show him getting stung by a bullet and losing his balance and a fall KTFO'ing him.

You see what I mean.

Yeah, got your point, but I can't resist to nitpick the shit out of random posts.

It's my curse.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Y would a physically weaker opponent allow that? Plus there isn't a Robin alive that could match Bane in ma so your point is moot. He's above them physically and skill wise.

A good example is Herc/Thor. They are rough equals stat wise but Herc strikes harder, he's a far better fighter. Thor relies TOO heavily on mjolnir. Theyve dedicated his current arc to just how worthless he is without it...it doesn't matter how many Serpents you lift or how many cities you pick up if your punches dont pack that power you will get dropped. Hulk on the other hand will lift mountains all day and still floor you with a punch...he's the exception along with a few others
That's not what I'm saying at all though...
Herc and Thor are to close strength wise for that to be a valid example.

Bane vs Batman. Grundy vs Batman stuff like that makes more sense as examples. Batman doesn't beat Bane or Grundy by raw strength, atleast in a good written comic. He uses skill, gear and smarts.

Physical weaker character's don't just let anyone grab them, ofcourse they don't it's a fight after all. It doesn't mean it can't happen and if it does guess what? The physically stronger character displays dominance. Look at Nu52 Doomsday vs Wonder Woman for example.

Originally posted by carver9
You're missing the point though. The point isn't about tiers, I'm talking about fts. Colossus strength fts outweighs Ulik but Ulik fights shows him as being superior.

At the end of the day, they are equals though. Let's rid this sentence of Cap and Supes, I don't want to discuss those two.

Hulk and Konvikt is a great comparison for this thread. Hulk strength, durability, and speed outweighs Konvikts...the only reason we know these two would be debatable is based off Konvikt showing against the JLA.

I don't like it when you lie to me, Carter. It destroys what little trust we have.

Originally posted by carver9
On false information.

Ahhh, young, Carver, you have MUCH to learn!

I met ALL of the necessary criteria to establish my FLAWLESS analysis as an answer to your question.

1. Consistency- Both appearances involving The Hulk vs SunGod and Hyperion were under the same writer.

2. Context- The combatants were all at their best during the aforementioned battles.

3.Clarity- There was a definitive result in both battles allowing for a clear appraisal of everyone's abilities!

As the, KING OF CANON, I am ALWAYS fair and balanced!!!

This is not young carver. This is carver senior.

Carver junior doesn't have a KMC acc, afaik.

Originally posted by carver9
I'm confused on this and KMC is full of highly intelligent people to help me with my question.

When does fts matter? So far I just read the thread title and then these sentences where the error was repeated so I will leave now cause I want to be nice

Originally posted by carver9
So how would we know if someone fought Superman at his best? It's not like Superman lifted a planet before facing Doomsday. So are we to say that Doomsday fought an average Superman? Yes. If no other evidence exists then characters are performing to average levels in a comic (strength and durability mostly). Now when Superman got serious and killed DD in a few panels then clearly this is above average Superman.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Im not saying it's right Raoul ijs Beast sucks ass at h2h



Make the thread. Castle or Todd or Grayson or Rogers or Crossbones or Daredevil or Ninjak or Green Arrow vs Hank Mccoy no gear h2h.

Rogers can beat Beast. But it would be difficult.
Everyone else loses easily. I don't know anything about Ninjak.

I'll make the thread.

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes. If no other evidence exists then characters are performing to average levels in a comic (strength and durability mostly). Now when Superman got serious and killed DD in a few panels then clearly this is above average Superman.

What about Wonder Woman? She also fought Doomsday as well but she didn't pull a moon, pull Earth, or withstand anything close to what she had experienced with her best durability showings. This applies to EVERYONE Doomsday has fought, including Orion, Martian Manhunter, etc... did Doomsday fight the average versions of said characters? The characters that is probably performing at 10 K tons? If so, where would this place Doomsday since he is fighting characters that are not performing at their best? Or anywhere close to it.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I don't like it when you lie to me, Carter. It destroys what little trust we have.

Sigh...I was hoping we could debate against each other for a change. Guess not. You won.

Originally posted by carver9
Sigh...I was hoping we could debate against each other for a change. Guess not. You won.

DON'T BACK DOWN, CARVER!!!

Originally posted by carver9
Sigh...I was hoping we could debate against each other for a change. Guess not. You won.

This isn't a debate thread, though.

Originally posted by carver9
What about Wonder Woman? She also fought Doomsday as well but she didn't pull a moon, pull Earth, or withstand anything close to what she had experienced with her best durability showings. This applies to EVERYONE Doomsday has fought, including Orion, Martian Manhunter, etc... did Doomsday fight the average versions of said characters? The characters that is probably performing at 10 K tons? If so, where would this place Doomsday since he is fighting characters that are not performing at their best? Or anywhere close to it.
Yes, DD fought against average level characters (meaning, their strength and durability were at average levels unless otherwise shown differently).

He beat them easily. That means he's much higher than them.

In a forum, DD will not be operating at planet busting levels although he beat characters that can bust a planet under their highest strength feats. Hulk will not be operating at those levels either (unless it's WBH).

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes, DD fought against average level characters (meaning, their strength and durability were at average levels unless otherwise shown differently).

He beat them easily. That means he's much higher than them.

In a forum, DD will not be operating at planet busting levels although he beat characters that can bust a planet under their highest strength feats. Hulk will not be operating at those levels either (unless it's WBH).

Are you saying the character that Doomsday beat were operating at planet busting levels?

Why do people ignore Squirrel Girl, Batman etc?

By fights, they are up there.

By feats, they aren't.

So if we take fights as paramount....fights which are ALWAYS plot driven....why is Squirrel Girl, Bats et al disregarded?

Originally posted by carver9
Are you saying the character that Doomsday beat were operating at planet busting levels? Where is that possibly implied in my post?

First sentence DID say....wait...average levels unless explicitly.....hmmmm

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why do people ignore Squirrel Girl, Batman etc?

By fights, they are up there.

By feats, they aren't.

So if we take fights as paramount....fights which are ALWAYS plot driven....why is Squirrel Girl, Bats et al disregarded?

Still wondering...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Still wondering...

I have resolved this issue by my answers on pages 6 and 7!

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Im not saying it's right Raoul ijs Beast sucks ass at h2h

He's not say, Wolverine or even Cyclops level no, but he is competent. Competent enough that his physical stats are used pretty well when he needs them to be.

His physical advantage over a lot of those guys is pretty big, I would argue. More than enough to account for any lack of comparative skill.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Ahhh, young, Carver, you have MUCH to learn!

I met ALL of the necessary criteria to establish my FLAWLESS analysis as an answer to your question.

1. Consistency- Both appearances involving The Hulk vs SunGod and Hyperion were under the same writer.

2. Context- The combatants were all at their best during the aforementioned battles.

3.Clarity- There was a definitive result in both battles allowing for a clear appraisal of everyone's abilities!

As the, KING OF CANON, I am ALWAYS fair and balanced!!!

This?

Squirrel Girl meets all of these criteria. She lacks the feats, but consistently, she shows she can clearly beat Doom, Thanos, Terrax, MODOK, Pluto etc.

Are they all PIS, context driven, just so the writer can tell a good story? Of course.

But then, so are the other fights. Death of Superman: we all knew that Doomsday would kill Superman as soon as we pick the comic up - it was a foregone conclusion. We all knew that BB would fail to defeat Hulk in the first issue of WWH. GR would fail. Strange etc would all fail. Because it was all plot driven - you can't end the first issue of a storyline called 'Death of Superman' with Supes killing Doomy in the first issue, lol.

And likewise with Cap Marvel and Superman.

Have to say, though, brilliant showing by Batman in the Suicide Squad/JL book. Took on a bloodlusted WW and wasn't dead.

Then Lobo held off the entire JL and Suicide Squad.

And Superman was beating the same Lobo and depowered Eclipso when he blocked sun itself.

Fighting evenly, wouldn't say beating.

Although, Eclipse makes you incredibly bloodlusted and not holding back, so no bad showing if he was being beaten.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Fighting evenly, wouldn't say beating.

Although, Eclipse makes you incredibly bloodlusted and not holding back, so no bad showing if he was being beaten.
I don't know if Williams wrote his Eclipso the same way but Pre-Flashpoint, when a regular guy would come into contact with one of those crystals they'd be able to snap other men's necks, run through villages sticking their hands into people's chest and so on. So I'd say there's a history of some sort of amp there. In the original Eclipso series.