Kratos (God of War) vs Link (Legend of Zelda)

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dika123
Distance : 100m
Knowledge: none
both are composite (means he can access all of his powers including magic and weapons through entire series.)
Mindset: none.
location: wide area resemble earth
PIS and CIS are OFF.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/38952/1525102-kratos_rendering_concept.jpg

VS

http://static.srcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/legend-zelda-netflix-tv-series.jpg


GO !!

NotAllThatEvil
Composite link is one tough cookie. I'd say he wins.

dika123
any feat that link have to beat Kratos ? Kratos has already taken down entire gods of olympus.

NotAllThatEvil
Stopping time, raising the dead, freely traveling between dimensions. Killing the god of evil...twice. there's also either six or twelve of him gaining up on kratos.

dika123
Kratos somehow immune to time manipulation, btw Kratos has petrification via medusa head. How about link strength ?

NotAllThatEvil
The granite pillars from Oot are still his best strength feat considering how far he threw them. Link isn't necessarily the same type as strong. He is definitely superhuman, but most of his power comes from his bag of tricks. Becoming ethereal, dimension jumping, and growing to the size of a giant are a few of those tricks.

NotAllThatEvil
Mirror shields brother. Worked for percius

NemeBro
Composite Link has the Triforce. He wins.

dika123
how powerful Triforce actually is ?

NotAllThatEvil
Enough to explode castles and tanking other castle exploding attacks

CosmicComet
Power of hope should be >>> triforce.

Its the most powerful force in gow. More powerful than the primordials.

NotAllThatEvil
So is the triforce? We know the complete version is stronger than at least three gods. One of them cut a continent in half.

CosmicComet
How powerful are the goddesses again?

Splitting a continent aint enough.

NotAllThatEvil
The three golden goddesses created literally everything including physics. The triforce is what they left behind. They were confident the goddess hylia could protect but she got overwhelmed by demise. The triforce then made short work of demise. Hylia is the one who cut the continent. Hylia <demise <triforce <Golden goddesses.

CosmicComet
Having watched the ocarina of time cutscene again, their creation is basically planetary level. Not an entire universe.

It said din 'with her strong flaming arms, she cultivated the land and created the red earth', nayru 'gave the spirit of law to the world'(and is shown making the atmosphere while flying over the world), and farore'produced all life forms'.

There was clouds and constant rain before they 'descended upon the chaos that was hyrule'. So there was stuff already there. Just not formed in a coherent way.

NotAllThatEvil
Cinematics. In the historia it not only credits them for that universe but termina and the realm of the ocean king were by products of their creation of hyrule. It's unclear if they meant to create lorule or not.

quanchi112
Kratos rapes link. He's a joke.

NotAllThatEvil
Brilliant insight as always. Keep up the good work

CosmicComet
Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Cinematics. In the historia it not only credits them for that universe but termina and the realm of the ocean king were by products of their creation of hyrule. It's unclear if they meant to create lorule or not.

I'm sorry, but what do you mean by cinematics? The cinematics are the primary source. They both show, and tell you what happened.

I'm looking at the Hyrule Historia and I can't see anywhere where it credits them with the creation of a universe.

It says the same thing the cutscene did, Din physically carved out the world's topography, Nayru created order and put the finishing touches on the world, and Farore created life on the world.

Even if they created other realms, that doesn't change that the best we see them do is planetary creation. Maybe they created those realms right after.

It's clear that they didn't just snap their fingers and things happened, seeing they had to physically fly to Hyrule which was cloaked in dark clouds and rain, and physically shape it themselves.

On the other hand Uranus, one of the Primordials, (And Zeus' grandfather), birthed the entire cosmos from his body.

quanchi112
Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Brilliant insight as always. Keep up the good work It doesn't take a well articulated analysis or rocket science to know Kratos just rapes the little nerd known as Link.

NotAllThatEvil
Originally posted by quanchi112
It doesn't take a well articulated analysis or rocket science to know Kratos just rapes the little nerd known as Link.

If that's true, you certainly lucked out. I don't believe you can form an articulated analysis.

NotAllThatEvil
Originally posted by CosmicComet
I'm sorry, but what do you mean by cinematics? The cinematics are the primary source. They both show, and tell you what happened.

I'm looking at the Hyrule Historia and I can't see anywhere where it credits them with the creation of a universe.

It says the same thing the cutscene did, Din physically carved out the world's topography, Nayru created order and put the finishing touches on the world, and Farore created life on the world.

Even if they created other realms, that doesn't change that the best we see them do is planetary creation. Maybe they created those realms right after.

It's clear that they didn't just snap their fingers and things happened, seeing they had to physically fly to Hyrule which was cloaked in dark clouds and rain, and physically shape it themselves.

On the other hand Uranus, one of the Primordials, (And Zeus' grandfather), birthed the entire cosmos from his body.

Fair enough. It's been a few months since I read the historia. I do know they made termina on accident though, which means they don't have to physically be there to make a planet/dimension.

I feel like we've drifted from kratos vs Link to God of War vs Zelda mythos. How strong is kratos?

CosmicComet
It's unknown how strong he is. We just know that the Power of Hope is the greatest power in the GoWverse, so he sits at the top potency-wise.

Cronos overthrew Uranus to rule the universe. And Helios overpowers Nyx, Goddess of the Stars and Nightsky every morning.

Kratos is well above both by end game.

NotAllThatEvil
Well thats...abstract? So are we really just gonna put hope vs triforce?

dika123
i think both need preparation to use power like that. how fast link actually is ?

dika123
Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Well thats...abstract? So are we really just gonna put hope vs triforce?

not sure about this, Chaos represent nothingness, Uranus represent Space and Stars. i think non-corporeal beings is the best option but Morpheus who doesn't have any physical body, considering Morpheus presence basically Fog, so... maybe....

NemeBro
Originally posted by CosmicComet
I'm sorry, but what do you mean by cinematics? The cinematics are the primary source. They both show, and tell you what happened.

I'm looking at the Hyrule Historia and I can't see anywhere where it credits them with the creation of a universe.

It says the same thing the cutscene did, Din physically carved out the world's topography, Nayru created order and put the finishing touches on the world, and Farore created life on the world.

Even if they created other realms, that doesn't change that the best we see them do is planetary creation. Maybe they created those realms right after.

It's clear that they didn't just snap their fingers and things happened, seeing they had to physically fly to Hyrule which was cloaked in dark clouds and rain, and physically shape it themselves.

On the other hand Uranus, one of the Primordials, (And Zeus' grandfather), birthed the entire cosmos from his body. I've got some bad news for you friend. In Greek mythology, the cosmos is not actually that big. Due to the Greek's limited understanding of the cosmos they did not have any notion of how large the universe was. This is why Apollo, god of the sun, is lesser than Zeus, god of the sky or heavens. The Greeks viewed the sun as being a part of the sky, same with the stars, and to their limited viewpoint the sky with its brutal thunderstorms which could send lightning to the earth seemed far more powerful than what appeared to merely be a big flash light in the sky.

This is why Typhon can both exist on earth in Greek mythology while being described as being so tall his head reached the stars. Because the Greeks did not know the stars were as far away as they are. Shit, they literally believed that the Earth was flat and surrounded by water, and that the sun set and rose from this water.

So I guess the important question is: do you have any proof that the God of War cosmos is like our own, and that the Protogenoi's influence was actually universal in it?

dika123
Originally posted by NemeBro
I've got some bad news for you friend. In Greek mythology, the cosmos is not actually that big. Due to the Greek's limited understanding of the cosmos they did not have any notion of how large the universe was. This is why Apollo, god of the sun, is lesser than Zeus, god of the sky or heavens. The Greeks viewed the sun as being a part of the sky, same with the stars, and to their limited viewpoint the sky with its brutal thunderstorms which could send lightning to the earth seemed far more powerful than what appeared to merely be a big flash light in the sky.

This is why Typhon can both exist on earth in Greek mythology while being described as being so tall his head reached the stars. Because the Greeks did not know the stars were as far away as they are. Shit, they literally believed that the Earth was flat and surrounded by water, and that the sun set and rose from this water.

So I guess the important question is: do you have any proof that the God of War cosmos is like our own, and that the Protogenoi's influence was actually universal in it?


finally good Info, just give to us any info that can nerf GoW Series, Your info might be useful in future for this series.

CosmicComet
Originally posted by NemeBro
I've got some bad news for you friend. In Greek mythology, the cosmos is not actually that big. Due to the Greek's limited understanding of the cosmos they did not have any notion of how large the universe was. This is why Apollo, god of the sun, is lesser than Zeus, god of the sky or heavens. The Greeks viewed the sun as being a part of the sky, same with the stars, and to their limited viewpoint the sky with its brutal thunderstorms which could send lightning to the earth seemed far more powerful than what appeared to merely be a big flash light in the sky.

This is why Typhon can both exist on earth in Greek mythology while being described as being so tall his head reached the stars. Because the Greeks did not know the stars were as far away as they are. Shit, they literally believed that the Earth was flat and surrounded by water, and that the sun set and rose from this water.

So I guess the important question is: do you have any proof that the God of War cosmos is like our own, and that the Protogenoi's influence was actually universal in it?

Well seeing that we've actually played the games, which are 3d, we already know they are made with more modern sensibilities about our reality and not just straight copying all of ancient greece's beliefs, though it does keep some. The typhon conundrum does not apply to them. The mountain he is buried under is not 'touching the stars' in the game. Not even mount olympus which is thousands of miles tall is touching the stars.

I asked a dev to clarify whether they created the universe and the answer was yes. In addition there are statements that the underworld actually stretches 'immeasurable' and even 'infinite' in span. And thats part of creation of course.

dika123
well, earth in God of War series is same like our earth but i think just more large.

CosmicComet
GoW Earth is flat, that's one of the things that they kept from mythology.

However, it wouldn't surprise me if the Earth changed somehow after Zeus' death.

NotAllThatEvil
Originally posted by dika123
i think both need preparation to use power like that. how fast link actually is ?
With the triforce or in general?

quanchi112
Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
If that's true, you certainly lucked out. I don't believe you can form an articulated analysis. I can and have before I just find this merits such a waste of time when the "eye" test tells us the obvious. Kratos kicks his ass you Link lusting creep.

dika123
Originally posted by CosmicComet
GoW Earth is flat, that's one of the things that they kept from mythology.

However, it wouldn't surprise me if the Earth changed somehow after Zeus' death.

so about picture show GoW earth on ascension and GoW Chains of Olympus commercial ? you said GoW earth was round year ago. sad

dika123
Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
With the triforce or in general?

yes

dika123
Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
With the triforce or in general?
Both

NotAllThatEvil
Well he can stop time, but besides that he regularly knocks lightning around with his sword and shoot arrows out of the air. When it comes to the triforce, he just has to touch it to make it work. With either 6 or twelve links distracting kratos he should have enough time to work it.

CosmicComet
Originally posted by dika123
so about picture show GoW earth on ascension and GoW Chains of Olympus commercial ? you said GoW earth was round year ago. sad

In the god of war documentary: unearthing the legend, one of the producers specifically said the earth is flat, just like in myth. The gow3 artwork also shows this.

The ascension artwork was an easter egg and may have been referring to another game that got cancelled.

But again, we will see how the earth is now that the olympians are gone.

dika123
Originally posted by CosmicComet
In the god of war documentary: unearthing the legend, one of the producers specifically said the earth is flat, just like in myth. The gow3 artwork also shows this.

The ascension artwork was an easter egg and may have been referring to another game that got cancelled.

But again, we will see how the earth is now that the olympians are gone.

weird.... moon and stars on the sky are round. But the earth is flat.

So the GoW earth' size is still questionable. But How big GoW earth is, if you compare it to real life earth ?

dika123
perhaps due to the first great war between Gods and Titans ? that war capable reshaping mortal world.

and also : "The brothers Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades split the world apart. Zeus gained dominion over the skies and became the king of the gods, Poseidon became the ruler of the seas, and Hades became the ruler of the Underworld."

not sure if that story exist in GoW series.

CosmicComet
Originally posted by dika123
weird.... moon and stars on the sky are round. But the earth is flat.

So the GoW earth' size is still questionable. But How big GoW earth is, if you compare it to real life earth ?

Considering the Pegasus flew from the Island of Rhodes to Mount Etna in maybe 5 minutes, yet took 6 days to fly from Mount Etna to the Island of Creation (which is near the edge of the world), it must be pretty massive.

There's also a gigantic desert to the east of Athens, so big that Cronos can wander in it for a long time (consider that 1 mile to an average sized human would be equivalent to over 280 miles to a 500 meter tall person). The desert is also filled with sand dunes as big if not bigger than Cronos.

The area surrounding Olympus was also stated to be "100x bigger than a national park".

So, apparently there is a ton of space in the GoW world.

ScreamPaste
"Termina

When Hyrule was created by the three goddesses at the beginning of time, there were certain side effects of its creation which Din, Nayru and Farore did not anticipate. As the three holy women breathed life into the world and chased away Emptiness, their potent breath slipped through tiny cracks in the folds of space and created millions of alternate worlds in the process. One of these worlds became the land known as Termina. "

-Zelda.com

https://web.archive.org/web/20051118053336/http://www.zelda.com/universe/pedia/t.jsp

The goddesses > the primordials.


The Triforce is also literally what holds reality together. ALBW shows an alternate reality without it and it's falling apart and fading away to nothing. When the OoT cinematic says that the Triforce is the basis of the providence of their world it's being literal.

Triforce > hope.

dika123
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
"Termina

When Hyrule was created by the three goddesses at the beginning of time, there were certain side effects of its creation which Din, Nayru and Farore did not anticipate. As the three holy women breathed life into the world and chased away Emptiness, their potent breath slipped through tiny cracks in the folds of space and created millions of alternate worlds in the process. One of these worlds became the land known as Termina. "

-Zelda.com

https://web.archive.org/web/20051118053336/http://www.zelda.com/universe/pedia/t.jsp

The goddesses > the primordials.


The Triforce is also literally what holds reality together. ALBW shows an alternate reality without it and it's falling apart and fading away to nothing. When the OoT cinematic says that the Triforce is the basis of the providence of their world it's being literal.

Triforce > hope.


is created millions of alternate worlds count as a multiverse ?? or what ?

because if the millions of worlds are same size like termina land and then

Primordials > goddess

in God of War series every myth are exist, one myth should contain dimensions or different cosmology like norse has 9 world that connected each other. Greek myth has which the size is immeasurable.

ScreamPaste
The goddesses outperformed the primordials by breathing too hard. By accident.

Each of those millions of worlds is its own layered reality with a sacred realm and at least something representing our local cosmology.

CosmicComet
Creating what is at best millions of planets or maybe mini-solar systems is not putting them on the Primordials level at all. It was not described as millions of universes, just worlds. And other than having what looks like a sun in the sky, nothing about them suggests they have an actual cosmology like our own, seeing as the moon in MM is like mountain sized at best. Zelda's world is much further removed from ours than GoW's is.

Also, the Goddesses are outright shown forming Hyrule manually, and the Hyrule Historia, which certainly outranks whatever that website says, repeats exactly what was shown in the OoT cutscene.

As per your link, they didn't intend to create millions of worlds anyway. It was a quirk in reality they weren't aware of. Without further clarification, that's not a power showing so much as its an accident that distributed their power further than it should have gone.

Regardless, there's two different statements that would point to the God of War universe being both immeasurable and literally infinite.

And all of the cosmos came from Uranus' body, he contained it within himself.

Also, one of the titans forged a spear that had the strength to contain the weight of the entire cosmos. And its nowhere near the Blade of Olympus, seeing as it one shot all of them.

ScreamPaste
Compared to a flat world.

Games are not to scale.

You're trying to make this less impressive by citing that it was an accident. That's not how that works.

This was casual for them. thumb up They breathed too hard.


And several claiming the Triforce is literally omnipotent.


Neat.

Triforce >

CosmicComet
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Compared to a flat world.

No, just a flat planet earth, which has all the same continents and oceans as the real one, and which may have changed now due to the death of the greek gods.

And that flat world is still surrounded by actual nebulas and countless galaxies.

Also, do you know of an ancient Greek invention called the antikythera mechanism? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

It was used for astronomy purposes back in the BCs.

That exact same mechanism, with the same name, same look and same stated purpose is an item that Kratos can find in Ascension. So yeah, GoW's cosmology besides Earth is oerall like our own, pretty provably.

Zelda's is not by any means. It has a moon with a face.




Nope.

The Moon is canonically meant to be that size from day one. After-all it was held up by a few giants that were small enough to fit in an open plain, and its size was shown explicitly side by side against a castle just before it touches down.. And there were advertisements and even commercials for Majora's Mask which showed the corrupted moon falling towards a modern city and it still looks to be the same size as in the game.

They could have zoomed out to show an entire planet and the moon next to it, crashing down, but they showed the moon against a castle for scale.

They had the opportunity to make it 'moon sized' in an HD game with Hyrule Warriors but the corrupted moon was shown to be the same size. Small enough for a dinosaur sized dragon to be seen against its curvature. (No need to point out it was a fake version of the corrupted moon made by fairies, i know, the size was still genuine though).


Anyway, Termina, which is stated to be similar but different to Hyrule, was going to be completely destroyed by a moon the size of a small mountain.

That's a bad showing for these millions of worlds when one of its most prominent ones can be taken out like that.

I mean, what about all the other unknown ones? They might be minuscule in size. Maybe no more than the size of a small forest or a large castle or a country or something. At best they are millions of pocket dimensions of indeterminate average size. It's a huge stretch to think they are universe sized.

At best its unquantifiable, but definitely well beyond planetary level which was my initial assessment, and maybe even multi-star (seeing as 1 million earths can fit within the sun).



An accident in that their power wasn't supposed to work that way. They didn't even seem to know about the cracks in reality since they didn't anticipate the results to happen. Not provably a pure power feat, we have no way of knowing how it interacted with their creation energies. It could have taken what was meant for one world and repeated it unwittingly.

And by breathe, I'm sure you meant "with her strong flaming arms, she cultivated the land and created the red earth", which is what was said of Din, one-third of these Goddesses. Not only was that said in OoT, it was also outright shown in OoT's cutscene. And it was later re-stated in the Hyrule Historia, which trumps that website you linked seeing as the latest copyright on that site is from 2005. Making it very outdated in comparison.



Literal statement of omnipotence? Or just 'All-powerful'?

Eitherway, omnipotence is relative to each verse. Feats matter.

It is omnipotent in verse where it holds reality together for millions of 'worlds' of indeterminate size. It was also created by three goddess that had to manually create the main world with their bare hands and their powers, and then by happenstance had otherworlds created as a side effect through a quirk of reality they did not even anticipate.

Pretty much like a scientist creating something through accident/happenstance.

Anyway, a cosmos that is literally infinite in size contained within the body of a being and created indirectly through fighting other beings of equal power > Accidentally creating millions of worlds/pocket dimensions of unknown size from a quirk in reality that makes it even more unquantifiable. And again, one of the most prominent of those worlds is small enough to be destroyed by a mountain sized moon.



Not by feats.

And infinite universe > millions of worlds.

ScreamPaste
This is not how planets work and immediately makes GoW's cosmology entirely unlike our own.


Neat. Saw it in a documentary once.

At least my celestial bodies are round. 131


Citation needed.



The moon is never shown to scale against anything in that commercial, and the MM commercials framed the moon falling as properly apocalyptic.


This is counter to your point, though, and unless you think the moon was meant to fall at measures of centimeters per second the game continues to not be to scale.



"As the three holy women breathed life into the world and chased away Emptiness, their potent breath slipped through tiny cracks in the folds of space and created millions of alternate worlds in the process."

Definitely not a power feat, right? The quote straight up attributes it to their breath, their potent breath.


1. No it wasn't. That cutscene shows moving rocks and fire.
2. That cutscene is us being told a story.
3. And no, I mean breathe. As per the quote.


Literal use of the word omnipotent.



It's more like three goddesses setting out to creating one world, and then accidentally making more because they breathed too hard.

Which is better than some gods making one world on purpose.


Infinite in size.
Contained within.
Choose one.

Goddesses > Primordials.
Triforce > "Hope".

ScreamPaste
Interestingly enough the first time the goddesses appeared was in the manual for aLttP.

http://www.zeldadungeon.net/wiki/images/thumb/b/b2/The-Creation-of-Hyrule.jpg/500px-The-Creation-of-Hyrule.jpg

Interesting how they are represented here. This seems very similar to how they are described as behaving on "that website" known as Zelda.com.

dika123
the only different is the earth is flat since they using Greek myth as a reference to the game, but the cosmology is similar to us with based on perspective of Greek Myth as a story of the game. They just combined and modified Greek myth cosmology with modern cosmology but not removing aspect of Greek myth so it would make more sense and not contradict.

like you said before "at least something representing our local cosmology."

Earth in GoW series is much larger with unknown size compared to our earth. GoW earth also contain another dimension. For the example like on GoW ascension. And GoW series also has Underworld which the size are immeasurable.

Hades seem also can reshaping the Underworld since The Landscape between GoW 1 and GoW 3 are completely different. the Underworld also contain dark clouds. The side effect of great war also reshaping entire continents. So it would make sense why GoW earth is Flat but other planet is not. because the gods influence to the nature.

and last but not least GoW series has multiple Myth exist simultaneously according to Matt Sophos. Which is impressive because it mean Another myth already exist since Primordials War not after event of God of War 3


and again just because each world has different layer of reality, i don't see how the Goddess accidentally created millions of worlds by breathing is impressive compared to Ceto one of the Primordials who make a Big bang with a single punch to Uranus. Considering the only world we know is Termina and sacred realm which the size is small compared to the earth.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
This is not how planets work and immediately makes GoW's cosmology entirely unlike our own.
So with that logic i want to ask you is LoZ's cosmology is same like our cosmology ?? Because our Cosmology is created by Big Bang not with three goddess.

ScreamPaste
This is a reasonable theory, but it also kind of conflicts with the INFINITE SCALE trying to be presented and attributed somehow to Kratos.

You'll note that almost without exception IRL myths tend to have a smaller scale than our modern understanding of the universe.


Sacred realm is part of the "primary" Zelda universe. Termina, Lorule, etc, are all separate ones with their own branching layers of reality and cosmology.

Explain why you feel what the goddesses created is smaller than Earth?

Hyrule alone spans two continents, touches the Northern icecap, and reaches far enough South to have tropical forests and deserts below them. It also neighbours Labrynna and Holodrum. This is not even mentioning the alternate realities layered over it such as the Sacred Realm, the Twilight Realm, etc.

Termina is a large enough place to span multiple climates, and we don't know what's on its borders. We do know that the moon is round, and was high enough to take more than three days to be pulled down to Termina Earth.

It would have been visible from its former orbit, and as it falls it begins pulling things upward with its gravity, it's not "mountain sized".

Lorule is nearly identical to Hyrule, and at least has its own sacred realm.



All of these places have a properly operating sun and moon, Termina and Hyrule both have night skies filled with stars and constellations. Hyrule has actual meteor showers. There are no flat earths or other physical anomalies to make it instantly different than ours.

Also what created something does not equate to how something is. GoW Earth was made by gods also, remember?

dika123
Originally posted by ScreamPaste

You'll note that almost without exception IRL myths tend to have a smaller scale than our modern understanding of the universe.


yes modern human has better understanding of the universe. But does not rule out the possibility the incomprehension of them about universe, make them to exaggerate our universe with some old story fantasy. furthermore i am not talking about Real life Myth, i am just giving proof if GoW series has Multiverse with unknown size. Perhaps new GoW on PS4 will tell us more.



By the Way i accept your statement. We'll see if your statement is accepted by most of OBD-ers ....


and also i think we should focus on Link vs Kratos Rather than Primordials vs Goddess.

So about Link, How powerful he is ? (Without triforce).
Because Kratos > Zeus > Cronos > uranus (Primordials)

i don't think link > Goddess

NotAllThatEvil
Link>demise> a goddess...

ScreamPaste
thumb up


That's kind of the point of why I went on the way I did, though. I saw people saying things that were wrong, for example that the Golden Goddesses were planetary or less, and came in to mostly correct those things.

As per the OP Link has the Triforce here, though, and given how absurdly powerful it is, my belief is that alone is necessary to give him the win. He can turn Kratos into a burrito or something, if he so wishes.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Link>demise> a goddess...
Hylia is explicitly lesser than the golden goddesses. She could be argued to be between life-wiping and planetary in scale, though.

NotAllThatEvil
Alrighty, but link without any triforce bits was still able to take on ganon. Ganon should be roughly equal to demise right?

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Alrighty, but link without any triforce bits was still able to take on ganon. Ganon should be roughly equal to demise right? SS Link boinked Demise, and other Links regularly boink Ganon, yeh.

Ganon with the ToP has at least one planetary feat in ALBW's backstory, Demise is apocalyptic too. HH says he has the power to "Destroy the world", which probably only means destroy the people on it, but given he took on Hylia while wounded it's not unlikely he's got planet wide reach with his power, either.

NotAllThatEvil
So I think I know your stance, but wouldn't majora dropping a moon technically put him above demise?

ScreamPaste
Planets > Moons

CosmicComet
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
This is not how planets work and immediately makes GoW's cosmology entirely unlike our own.

Planet. Specifically Earth. Not Planets. The moon is big enough to classify as a planet and by all accounts the one GoW is the same as ours, it waxes, it wanes, it has many different looking craters etc. Meaning its round.
The primordials created an entire universe. And that universe is filled with other galaxies. Both Word of God confirmed.
That entire universe is also infinite in size going by 3 different statements.
So Earth in GoW represents an infinitesimally small part of the cosmos.
Anyway, you built a nice strawman there.
I specifically said GoW's cosmology far more represents ours then Zelda's does, and that was in response to your initial claim that Zelda's cosmology resembles ours. And you've not rebutted that particular claim. I never said GoW's cosmology is exactly equivalent to ours, obviously that's not the case. smile
All GoW does is have a flat earth, and that may have actually changed after the Greek God end. Like Dika said, it has an old-world Greek take on the Earth with a modern view of the universe around it. Nothing complicated.

Zelda's sins against representing our cosmology are far bigger, I'll go over that in a bit.



Thanks. Anyway, I take it to mean its a concession on the point that GoW's world has references to actual persons, places or things that exist or have existed? Whereas Zelda's does not?

GoW even credits the invention of the device to Archimedes.




So are the stars and moon in GoW.

And at least GoW has shown us deep space before. With stars and a collection of nebullae. And again, the verse is WoG confirmed to be filled with other galaxies.

Let's start with Zelda's issues, which are much more numerous.

1. Firstly, it's not even Earth. The world is collectively called Hyrule at times too. (citation pg 77 of the Historia). It does not even remotely represent Earth in Geography. GoW Earth might be a flat land, but at least it IS Earth. This particular problem for Zelda isn't all that bad by itself but...it piles on from there, especially when you are comparing it in cosmological similarity to Earth against something that actually *is* Earth.

2. The world of Hyrule is OLDER than its supposed Sun. This is a massive flaw:
9XSWZc1JBcs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XSWZc1JBcs
1:00-1:11.

Din already completely formed the world and its topography, and then Nayru came and formed the atmosphere and the sun appeared along with the sky in the air. This is very backward.

3. Unlike GoW, we've never seen deep space in zelda. The Goddesses created the heavens before they created hyrule, and you'd think by common language that 'heavens' means Space. But it apparently doesn't. They came from their home in the heavens to where hyrule was supposed to be, and there were no stars in this area at all. It didn't even look remotely like space at all. They came to some dark cloudy area that was raining (?!), and then that dark cloudy, rainy area became hyrule. The sun shined and those dark clouds and rain eventually dispersed.

4. Forget deep space, we've never even seen Hyrule from nearby orbit in any of the games. Why would they shy away from this, even though they've had situations where it would be appropriate? We've had a cutscene of the creation story, and we've had a story of the moon falling. Yet we don't see Hyrule from orbit as an actual planet, ever. Why is that? If its supposed to be a planet, then no mystique is ruined anyway just to show a cropped view of the planet from low-orbit. Even the GoW Earth has been shown from orbit before, such as in the Chains of Olympus commercial, from space at least it looks like a normal planet, even if its not once you are actually in it.

5. The Moon. Has. A. Face. Not only that, the moon's inside has a field of grass and a tree in it. And structures for a dungeon, and minions. It's mostly hollow. What's more, this moon literally sheds tears made of blue rocks. You can't make this up. That and there's various references in the series of the Sun having a face too, normally you'd think its just a stylized mural, but the actual moon has a face so it may be literal.

CosmicComet
*Cites official visual material.*

*Gets asked for citation after already citing*

http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r791/StarsNStripesDC/other/moon1_zpsoxqxuup9.png

http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r791/StarsNStripesDC/other/moon2_zpsspxwzv62.png

http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r791/StarsNStripesDC/other/moon3_zpsviqrvr2s.png

http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r791/StarsNStripesDC/other/moon5_zpstusnqy7r.jpg

http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r791/StarsNStripesDC/other/moon7_zpsmzlvnvvd.jpg

http://img.mangahost.net/br/mangas_files/the-legend-of-zelda-majoras-mask/3/04.jpg

http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r791/StarsNStripesDC/other/moon4_zpsktbjq7rx.png

So, are we ignoring every official showing that shows the moon as less than moon sized now? (which is all of them).

The corrupted moon shows up in like 3 different games (5 if you the count the 3DS remake of MM and the one that was on Gamecube) official artwork, an official manga and the Japanese Commercial and it is small every time.

There are multiple views of the moon in its main game, and not a single view of it approaches moon sized. Not only do they show it against the nearby castle landscape, they show it against actual characters too; the giants of Termina.

Are you going to tell me those are actually 4 continent sized giants too?
Please don't. After all they sleep hidden somewhere in the 4 regions of the land, we've seen their feet next to tree stumps for scale, there's official artwork of skull skid standing close by them with rocky hills next to them for scale, and he was originally their friend to begin with, (kinda hard to be friends with things that are continent sized right?).
What's more, the The Moon's size is even stated in relation to the town.
Pg. 112 of the Hyrule Historia:
"The day of destiny had arrived. The Four Giants stretched out their arms and held up the moon, stopping it from plunging into the town."
Lmao... if it was moon sized, it wouldn't be talked about as plunging into a town, it would be talked about as plunging into a continent.
Come to think of it, you ask me for citations, but where's your citation that the moon was actually meant to be the size of our moon? Doesn't exist, visually, or textually.



http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r791/StarsNStripesDC/other/moon4_zpsktbjq7rx.png

Completely false. As you can see a cloud deforming around the moon's mouth, and you even see clouds *behind* the moon that are still moving in the video I posted before.
Meaning its in the atmosphere and its take up very little space in the sky.
And yeah, I remember the Nintendo of American commercials showing a doomsday scenario of our own moon hypothetically falling on us in 72 hours and us just waiting. That would be apocalyptic, obviously.
If you take those commercials as making the analogy that proportionately Earth is to Moon as Termina is to Corrupted Moon, then all that does is reaffirm that Termina is a tiny world since its moon is canonically tiny in every showing, ever.



I don't know what importance the moon's specific fall speed has on anything, nor do I know where you pulled that figure from.
The moon WAS absolutely falling at horrendously slow speeds relative to its size though. It took a full 3 days to hit the ground even though its diameter is not that much greater than the castle town that it was falling directly towards, meaning it was never that far up in the sky in the first place since we can still see it clearly in the sky before it starts falling.
Even when its almost touched down with the castle, maybe 1000 feet above the ground, it looks like its barely moving and looks like it would take it a few whole minutes just for it fall that mere 1000 feet. Not to mention, we see a rocky tear drop fall from the moon's eye while it was still at day 1 height, and that tear drop plummeted to the ground in seconds. So yeah, absolutely the moon is falling slow as hell.
Anyway,
They had the opportunity to easily show the size of the moon being closer to moon size as opposed to mountain sized. They could have done something like this: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/VltptfZ4kq8/hqdefault.jpg
but again, they instead chose to do this:
http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r791/StarsNStripesDC/other/moon1_zpsoxqxuup9.png

And it would have been far less work to show a zoomed out view of the moon hitting the world. They would have only needed a flat stretched out sprite for space/stars, and two low polygon spheres colliding. But they didn't. They went through the trouble of having the moon's face squishing up against a clock tower in an open plain with mountains and trees, so they showed far more detail than they actually had to if that moon was actually 'moon sized'.

Even in the Gamecube or 3DS versions where they had more power to play with in order to do a planetary collision scene justice, they still did not opt to make a zoomed out showing of the moon hitting the world and actually looking like a moon. Instead we got a cleaned up, retextured showing of a demonstratively tiny, small mountain sized moon taking out the entire world of termina.

As it says in a link from the *current* Zelda.com, Termina is just a parallel alternate Hyrule, so Hyrule would have gotten taken out as well.

CosmicComet
If they breathed and created all those millions of worlds in the same continuum/dimension/space then yeah, it would have been a power feat.
The only power feat is creating Hyrule, and that's all they intended to created. Those other areas got created on accident because there were leaks in reality that caused their creation energies, or whatever you want to call it, to be taken to other points of space. It would be like fumes in a building going to different rooms because of ventilation.
And then, their creation energies basically got xerox'd and re-arranged at each of these different points of space. That's why Lorule and Termina are so similar to Hyrule, they even have people that look near identical across them.

But the thing is, they didn't breathe anything into existence. At all. It's a faulty, single source that says that. More on that in a bit.



And those moving rocks and fire are juxtaposed with the text telling us that they are being put together by Din and shaped by her strong flaming arms. We even see a first person view of flight across the land, that would be her doing her work.
And lol, you are being awfully flippant and dismissive of the primary source of canon for the series, the games themselves. Aren't you supposed to be a Zelda canon warrior? Why are you denigrating your series?
Afterall, your chosen version of creation, is from an old, completely abolished version of Zelda.com, with an ecyclopedia that no longer even exists. That was the only source where that 'breathing and millions of worlds' thing came from. It does not orginate from anywhere else nor is it repeated anywhere else in canon later. Go ahead, try to go to http://www.zelda.com/universe/pedia/ now and see where it leads you. It doesn't even exist.
That version of Zelda.com was a Nintendo of America site, it was not created by NoJ and had nothing directly to do with Miyamoto or Aonuma. It's a second hand source at best with NoA theories. They've had flat out incorrect information before that's been purged, like a one Link timeline they used to have on there, and made up shit about Zoras and Zolas being distinct things as opposed to just a spelling difference due to Japanese/English conversions, and some shit about Ganondorf being the only male Gerudo and only because he was 'allowed' in, as opposed to when the games tell you that a male is born every 100 years in the Gerudo clan. It's not particularly credible, and I'm not the only person to say that, its been said by others for years now.
The current version of Zelda.com is basically a product page for each of the games now. They could have kept the encyclopedia somewhere to the side, but they completely shit-canned it, just like they did with that timeline that used to be on it.

On the other hand, several sources including primary sources have repeated the exact same thing we are told from the N64 Ocarina of time:

1. It was said/shown in the original N64 OoT
2. It was said/shown in the Gamecube port.
3. It was said/shown in the 3DS remake.

4. It is outright repeated in the OoT manual. Verbatim:
http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r791/StarsNStripesDC/other/LoZOoT_zpskbfmb57t.png

5. The *CURRENT* Zelda.com also repeats the above verbatim:
http://www.zelda.com/ocarina3d/#/story
"Before life began, before the world had form, three
golden goddesses descended upon the chaotic land of Hyrule. They
were Din, the goddess of power, Nayru, the goddess of wisdom
and Farore, the goddess of courage. Din, with
her strong flaming arms, cultivated the land to
create the earth. Nayru poured her wisdom onto the earth
to give the spirit of law to
the world. Farore's rich soul created all life forms who
would uphold the law."

6. Here's another piece from the *CURRENT* Zelda.com. That encyclopedia got dumped got replaced by this much more brief Online guide: http://www.zelda.com/online-guide/
And likewise it says:
http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r791/StarsNStripesDC/other/LoZcreation_zpsmczvrdon.png

Oh look, it repeats OoT's creation story again.

7. And finally, Pg. 70 of the Hyrule Historia says:
"This world was created by the three goddesses during a time of chaos. Din, the goddes of power, created the land. Nayru, the goddess of wisdom, created order. Farore, the goddess of courage, created the diverse inhabitants."

There you go. Several sources corroborating with Original OoT's creation story, including more up to date versions of the website.
On the other hand there are absolutely no other sources corroborating your deleted encyclopedia's creation claim. Absolutely none. The old website including its whole encyclopedia section was a Nintendo of America interpretation that was scrubbed, and that creation interpretation along with it.

Which is good because it completely contradicted the rest of the canon.
There is not a single extra source out there that mentions 'millions of worlds' or that they were 'breathed' into creation. To claim it is true over all the other sources that show a contradicting and unified creation story would be extreme dishonesty.


Cool, I was able to corroborate the use of the word.
But its not literal omnipotence. Not TOAA or Presence omnipotence. Just relative to its verse.
And considering that the 'breathed millions of worlds' claim for the Goddesses is now safely debunked as well as completely deleted from the website, the literal omnipotence claim gets even weaker.
I mean, Lorule didn't even just vanish in a snap when its Triforce disappeared. It just slowly started to decay. So even the whole 'it holds reality together' isn't as dramatic as you made it sound. Not to mention the fact that there are multiple Triforces lowers the omnipotence claim even more dramatically
If the Triforce was omnipotent, it would also only have one version across all worlds in Zelda, and if it disappeared in one world it should disappear everywhere.



You have it backwards. The only ones specifically setting out to make anything were the Goddesses.

The Primordials were not trying to create. They were basically the personification of the big bang (which spawned them). They were simply trying to kill each other and an entire universe, one that is filled with many galaxies, was born as a side effect of their fighting. All of the above is WoG confirmed.

And other Lore/WoG statements show that this universe is infinite in size. Earth wasn't even a focus, it just happened.

The Goddesses on the other hand set out from their ambiguous Heaven to specifically hand-craft a world, literally. And a quirk in reality made parallel versions of their main creation, and that is something they weren't even anticipating to happen.
Unfortunately we can't even assume the world they created is part of an honest to goodness full sized universe filled with other galaxies. You mentioned that creation stories are often smaller than reality and that applies to Hyrule too: Hyrule's myth seems very reminiscent of the intelligent design of Biblical creation; where the Earth is the most prominent body in the sky with the sun and moon both equally small and subservient to it and the stars are just a blanket of light speckled darkness. Afterall, once more, we literally see that the world of Hyrule is OLDER than its own sun as it was formed before it, so its safe to say Hyrule was the most important thing to the Goddesses and their creation plans centered around just the world's necessities.

If you can find some WoG or lore statement that says the World of Zelda is an honest to goodness universe filled with galaxies, and that millions of other honest to goodness universes were created too then I would be happy to concede superiority for the Goddesses. I'd love to have an opportunity to wank LoZ to such levels, I really would.

But until then, all the Goddesses did was make Hyrule by splitting up the task, and parrallel versions of it like Termina and Lorule were created by unknown means as well. And as of now they aren't even actual universes, just mini-solar systems where the world is the most important thing in the sky.

They didn't even make millions of parallel worlds because that claim only came from a single source; An old, discreditable source written up by non-primary sources (Nintendo of America) and replaced by a much more simple online glossary. Since that 'millions of worlds through breathing' thing only came from one deleted source and was never repeated anywhere else at all (even the Hyrule Historia never says anything about millions of parallel worlds), that means is bunk and untrue.

So yeah, the Goddesses made a handful of worlds at best. Afterall the games never made Termina or Lorule seem like a dime a million worlds, they made them seem like special cases.

CosmicComet
No. Why would I have to? Did you just learn to fiction? Or did you conveniently forget how to fiction in this instance?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BiggerOnTheInside
Or hell, remember this guy? Here he is in his own pocket dimension holding stomach


Uranus is a Primordial humanoid, with a body shape/silhouette formed by bespeckled star stuff/constellations/celestial looking shit, whom contains an infinite cosmos within him.
Very reminiscent of a buff Spartan looking version of this guy.


Uranus has a feat of being himself. That feat is greater than Goddesses who formed a few mini-solar systems while only meaning to make one.
Uranus was also beaten by his son Cronos.
Also, there is at least one Primordial that still exists in Kratos' lifetime; Nyx, the Goddess of the stars and night sky. And Helios beats her every morning. And yes, its mentioned in the game that she still exists and WoG confirmed that she is a Primordial.
Hope > Primordials >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Goddess/Triforce.

That's lovely. A mural drawn by some mortal that wasn't there doesn't know what the golden goddesses actually look like.
If you believe this is the exact moment moment that creation came into being all at once, then that means humans were born instantly and were immediately on their knees kowtowing to these gods, yet we know the more recent, more in-depth showing that actually depicted the scenario as it was happening, contradicts that, and thus takes immediate precedence and retcons this even if it was meant to be taken literally (which I doubt it was).
This mural could just as easily be showing them putting the finishing touches on creation by blowing all the storm clouds away that existed around Hyrule.
And yeah, as deconstructed above, 'that website' is technically just an archival of a website copyrighted at 2005, a website that was never a primary source as it was made by Nintendo of America employees. And that same site has been trashed and updated and the current Zelda.com contains absolutely no references to that past encyclopedia and instead contains references to the Ocarina of Time version of creation, which completely contradicts your archived link. Sorry. Both old and new information confirms that the OoT story is the prevailing one. Your preferred information existed in a vacuum by itself with no other supporting material and has now been deleted from the website entirely.


That's 4 posts from me so:

TL;DR: The Goddesses never 'breathed life into millions of worlds', AT ALL. Only a single questionable source said that and since then its been completely wiped from any mention on the website and replaced by contradicting information.

On the other hand, several sources (including the now updated website) corroborate to show that the Goddesses created a single world specifically using a combination of their strength and their powers, (not by mere breathing) and split the task up. And a handful of other parallel worlds to their main creation came about somehow too.

dika123

ScreamPaste
Good enough.



This is where I disagree.


It's not Earth, sure, but it's the Zelda equivalent. It is the planet on which the people live. This point is basically semantics.


This is unimportant, lol.



My dude, this all literally happened before time even began. The heavens are never mentioned, either, so I don't know what you're even talking about. This is before life, spirits, or time. There not being stars yet doesn't mean literally anything. This could just be time itself being created and light travelling to where the camera is situated, for all we know, lol.

Order things were created in doesn't matter.

Termina's cursed moon certainly does.


Please don't say this before then going to post:
Hyrule warriors
The manga
Smash bros
Ads

Two of those show no scale, and none of them are canon.

The only ones that are canon are screenshots from the game, which is not to scale. Unless you think Termina has a population of 20 people.


Using assets they'd already made is actually even easier than what you suggest, and the scene produced is much more dramatic. Why they would do some dumb shit like that I can't imagine, lol.


It is a power feat. It is actually _better_ than creating one self contained universe. They _accidentally_ made even more.

And yet we see no arms, and are never given a first person view of any of the goddesses. Speculation is not particularly useful here.

You're also kind of obfuscating the point. The three goddesses created different aspects of reality, woo. How exactly they did so is unimportant, what is important is the scale of this creation.

What they did was casual and accidental.

Which doesn't conflict. thumb up

We have already seen some of them, lol. There is no contradiction here. You're hung up on Din's arms, which we never see in any position other than folded, and copy pasting of OoT's text which never contradicts Termina's.


This makes their feat more impressive, not less.

ScreamPaste
Going to focus on this one more than the others because this is straight up misinformation. The image is meta material from the manual. It wasn't created by anyone in universe, and it accompanies an origin story very similar to OoT's which actually _is a story being told in universe by someone who wasn't there_.

What the original Japanese says:

"In the times long past, before man first emerged, the gods descended upon the world when it was nothing but chaos. Using their various abilities, they brought order and life to the world.

The "god of power" used flame to dye the mountains red and made the earth.

The "god of wisdom" made science and magic, and awarded the land with natural order.

And the "god of courage" used the kindness of strong heart, and created those which crawl on the earth, those which travel in the air, and all of the living creatures of the world.

After forming all that is, when it was time for them to depart this realm, the gods consummated the land with a symbol forged of their own power, in the form of a sacred, golden, triangle: the "Triforce." Their course finally running to completion, the gods left the Triforce to govern this land."

http://www.zeldalegends.net/view/text/z3translation/z3_manual_story.html

This is as close as we have to WoG by Nintendo. This is the origin of the Triforce and of Hyrule. We know now that the original creation is much more, with millions of different realities. This is the origin of Termina and all the other alternate worlds we've seen so far. And each of those worlds must also have a sacred realm, as demonstrated by ALBW.

There is no contradiction here. The Zeldaverse has grown a lot since 1998.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by dika123
http://gematsu.com/2017/04/legend-zelda-breath-wild-open-air-concept-new-standard-producer-says



OK...... It amuses me that they set BotW up as such an obvious "THIS IS THE GAME FURTHEST INTO THE FUTURE YET", and threw in nods to almost every other game, but refuse to put it on the timeline, lol. Godamn goons.

Who knows, maybe this version of Hyrule is one of those alternate realities.

CosmicComet
- Is this all you're giving me? You're just doubling down and being circular because you had no specific retorts for things? I asked you to do a few things in my posts, and you have not done them at all. On the other hand I did everything you asked of me.

-On the difference of GoW's similarity to our universe compared to Zelda's, I won't even talk about GoW's half of that argument anymore. Because its mostly just a waste of time. I can see where that argument would have had some merit before but now its confirmed that GoW's verse is a legitimate universe filled with other galaxies, (and that's just building off of what seemed to be the case from Ascension's intro anyway). So trying to extrapolate for GoW is redundant since its already confirmed.

-As for Hyrule being older than its own Sun...Of course that's a problem. It's a much bigger problem than a flat earth. It's a huge problem, as it gives us a hint about creation in Zelda. The point is Hyrule is very biblical in its intelligent design with the world itself being so important and central to creation. Again, I do not for a second believe there are legitimate stars/nebulas/galaxies in Zelda because the main piece of creation, before we see anything else, is 'the world' being born. And that world is older than its own sun.
In the bible Earth is the most important creation out there, and the sun, stars and everything else were all made after the Earth and are subservient to the Earth. The Earth is the dominant figure in the sky and the central focus. Likewise, the allowed view of the world is super-protected in Zelda, (no upper or lower orbit shots of a planet, ever), and its older than its own Sun as well. So it's pretty easy to see the Zeldaverse as super small and concentrated around a single, central, celestial body: Hyrule. Just like the Bible does for Earth.
Again until I get some more information I'm sticking with the 'mini-solar systems' designation for Hyrule, Termina and Lorule. Even if there were a few million different versions of this kind of universe (which there isn't), it would still not even come close to a galaxy level feat.

-It's not just about the moon being corrupted giving it a face. None of the Termina residents from my recollection made a single mention of it suddenly developing a face, just that it was descending on them. So it was not unusual to them. Also, the residents in Termina are familiar with Moon's Tears, those blue tear shaped rocks that fall from the Moon's eyes. They are a regular occurence and were mentioned by that deku shrub looking merchant (whose name i forget) before its ever even mentioned or shown that the moon is falling.
So in one of the parallel dimensions of Hyrule, namely Termina, it is completely normal to have a moon with a face on it. So normal that the moon shedding tears is also a common occurence that is seen as a valuable commodity.

-Ah, the expected, but still disappointing goal post moving. 'Non-canon'. Great, except we aren't looking at those things for a story element, just a consistency of a basic visual element; in this case the moon's *size*. If it was merely an issue with the moon not being not to scale due to some "tech issue", then a higher fidelity CG commercial or a spin-off game 3 console generations later should solve that issue. But they didn't, the size was the same.
Also, concept art for the game is still canon, and that shows the moon inside termina's atmosphere, with clouds behind it, and its no bigger than what the game shows.
At some point you will have to try to actually prove the moon as being moon sized.
This handwringing and equivocating about the world not being scale doesn't change that the moon deliberately isn't moon sized when they could have easily shown it hitting the planet from a high orbit zoom out.
Even if say the town is smaller than its supposed to be (of which there is no proof), the moon's size was still in comparison to the town, in every shot. And in comparison to a few giants that were not that much taller than the clocktower in said town.
The Historia also said the Giants were specifically trying to stop the moon from plunging into town.
At no point is the Moon presented as larger than the a medium large asteroid mountain.

-Also, are you implying Nintendo is lazy? They put a lot of work into re-modeling and re-texturing majora's mask for the 3ds, but they are too lazy to simply do a simple planetary collision scene with a stretched out sprite for space and two basic low poly, low texture spheres colliding? That would have been easier to do in the first place back in 2000 than showing the moon's face right next to a town and a large field with trees and general terrain around, and yet they still opted to do it that way the first time and kept it that way for the remake also.

-Uh yes, those things do outright contradict your deleted, Nintendo of America written encyclopedia. If it didn't, you wouldn't have brought it up in the first place against the Ocarina of Time cutscene, which shows a deliberate, meticulous creation of a world/planet by splitting up the task by into three seperate fields. One gives the impression of an accidental multiversal power (and is not referenced anywhere else), and the other shows meticulous world creation and is referenced repeatedly, often verbatim.
All that means is Nintendo is keen on repeating things when they are correct. And they delete/ignore shit that isn't, such as the timeline that used to be on that old zelda.com and that deleted encyclopedia that was there as well.
The encyclopedia entry says Termina and all other parallel worlds to Hyrule was an 'accidental' creation, and yet that is not repeated anywhere else at all. The Historia never says Termina was an accidental creation, there is no mention of any accidental parallel world creation at all. And what other parallel world do we know of? That's right, Lorule, and we know for sure that Lorule was not an accidental creation because we know it has its ownTriforce, which is created upon the Goddess' exit to the heavens.
So Lorule already proves the categorical statement of accidental parallel worlds statement to be false.

-I'm not getting caught up by Din's strong, flaming arms. Rather you are getting caught up with your its 'just a story by the Deku Tree' excuse that you keep trying to use to handwave away for your convenience. I showed you that that this particular statement about Din cultivating the earth with her arms was repeatedly stated, even outside the context of the 1998 cutscene--that cutscene by the way, is still most in-depth and complete showing of LoZ creation story in any of the games, so its damn important. Know what isn't important at all? A deleted, hyperbolic, unreferenced encyclopedia entry written up by a low credibility Nintendo of America.
Your excuse about us not specifically seeing Din use her arms is rather shoddy and filled with irony. It's obviously not meant to be a complete showing of them creating the world, just a condensed version. You mention that all we see is a ball of fire and rocks come together, but AFTER Din sets off that ball of fire and the rocks/boulders gather together, we see a first person flight over the surface of the world and are being told that Din used her strong flaming arms to cultivate the land. So AFTER the land mass clumped together in total, she shaped it using her strong flaming arms. So no, there is no contradiction. (And that's a pretty epic speed feat for her, considering she seems to be human sized in the cutscene). It would be pretty hard to convincingly animate that anyway, especially on n64 since the rest of the game is pretty jankily animated even for normal mundane things like sword swings.
As for the irony, how can you imply that the oft repeated statement about her using her arms to shape world is false *simply* because we don't outright see it, yet turn around and say the Moon is moon sized even though we never see it (or even have it stated at least)? That and how can you put a deleted encyclopedia entry that has zero referrals to it anywhere in the canon, on a greater canonical importance than a primary source like the game, its instruction manuals & product page? Afterall, not only is it never referred to anywhere else, we don't see it happening in that or any cutscene either. So its 0 for 2 in visibility.

-It is a mural. Just look at it. Do the game's graphics look like that? No? Then its a mural, and can viewed as mostly symbolic/metaphorical, not literal to a T. Your own lore description from the manual contradicts it and falls in line with what the OoT manual says. Except OoT's manual and cutscene goes into even more detail.
Uh yes, Zelda has gotten bigger since 1998. And its gotten bigger through Termina and Lorule being revealed as alternate versions of Hyrule, and there being revealed to be 3 branching timelines. Not through a faulty, deleted, zero reference having Nintendo of America website encyclopedia entry.

I tell you what, we are set to have the hyrule encyclopedia release in the states later this year. We will see what it says regarding the Goddesses. I will bet you that it says the same kinda thing that OoT says, and that it will have absolutely nothing about accidental millions of parallel worlds created through breathing. Regardless, we will let that encyclopedia settle this for us.

ares834
Lmao at the wank.

Kratos still likely wins though as long as Link doesn't have the triforce.

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CosmicComet
They made Hyrule before its own sun, and before everything else we see in the sky.

Yeah, exactly. Making this a small, intimate, Biblical type of World creation with a tiny universe in which the Hyrule/The World is the dominant piece of the cosmos, which is why I said they made a mini-solar system at best. Until you find a WoG statement that says the Zelda verse is filled with a bunch of galaxies, that's all we have. A tiny world creation. Even if they did make a million of these, (which they did not, at all), it still wouldn't even come close to even a single galaxy level feat.




Except the game itself, and the concept art for said game, both of which are canon. Oh, and you didn't mention that Japanese ad as being 'non-canon' when I mentioned it the first time, you simply said it gives 'no scale for reference'. When I pointed out that as untrue, THEN you tried to squirm with the sniveling "errmmm...well its all non-canon anyway" pivot. That's why what you did is so hilarious.

Oh, and the bit in the Historia about the giants (who are hill sized), specifically stopping the moon from plunging 'into the town'. The Historia's words, Not mine.

So you concede that you can't find any actual evidence that the moon is moon sized. Glad we've sorted that out.

Btw, know what else is non-canon? A deleted, zero reference holding Nintendo of America theory encyclopedia that got replaced by this online guide, which does not contain any mention of those prior encyclopedia entries.




2 years? Cool. The scene I described could have been done by one person in a few hours or days, in the original game, back in 2000. And yet, they opted to show the Moon as being the size of a large hill/small mountain.

Since you can't seem to find an actual reason or explanation of the moon's size being smaller. This still only leaves us with the game and concept art, which both support my argument.

Even if something is non-canon, it is still at least official. And well, your belief, which is all you have, is totally unofficial.

So my combination of game/concept art/other official material which all points to the moon being around the level of a large hill sized meteor > Your mere belief that the moon is meant to be moon sized.

That's why you are waffling, hand-wringing, and equivocating because you know you can't back your belief up at all. It's eating you up that you can't seem to actually prove what I'm asking you to prove.




If they did make a million+ worlds one by one via Din's foundation shaping flaming arms, then that negates the purpose of the quote in the first place. It no longer becomes a million+ world power feat, which is what you were trying to show with your deleted, non-canon breathing quote. It becomes the equivalent of me stacking millions of bricks together, over some unknown period of time.

You are trying to mix and match so you don't lose out either way by keeping the 'accidental' modifier, except that modifier was not used anywhere else. There is no mention in Termina of that world being an accident, or in Lorule. Fun fact, the Historia never even once use the word 'accident' in it. At all. Anywhere. It mentions its timeline as the 'Creation of the Land and Sky', as the first part of the timeline, and nothing else. So until you get some further proof, its all deliberate.

You know what the Historia also doesn't do? It doesn't mention 'millions of worlds' either. Not once. Not even 'many' or 'countless' worlds.

Also you know what didn't split up the work into different segments? Your discredited, deleted, non-canon encyclopedia. Let's see what they say about the Goddesses specifically:

"Din, Goddess of Power
Working with her two sisters, Din assisted in the creation of Hyrule at the beginning of time. She also contributed the Triforce of Power to the Sacred Triforce."

"Nayru, Goddess of Wisdom
Working with her two sisters, Nayru assisted in the creation of Hyrule at the beginning of time. She also contributed the Triforce of Wisdom to the Sacred Triforce."

"Farore, Goddess of Courage
Working with her two sisters, Farore assisted in the creation of Hyrule at the beginning of time. She also contributed the Triforce of Courage to the Sacred Triforce."


Notice how it says almost identically the same thing? Literally the only difference is their name and what piece of the triforce they made.

No mention of Din making the red earth specifically, or Nayru making order for the world or Farore making life for the world. They kept it vague so it meshes with their unsupported breathing theory. According to them they just all breathed, in an identical way, and their breath just formed everything without any specialization.

What a shitty encyclopedia, no wonder it was deleted.




Nope. The feat didn't happen. Hence why it was deleted and replaced by material that contradicts and actually reinforces the original 1998 material, and not NOA's unsolicited, unsupported theories. The encyclopedia was a non-canon Nintendo of America creation and the website had other flat out incorrect things on it that were also deleted.

There are several references to the OoT creation of the world, some repeated verbatim, which happened through deliberate use of powers and strength, not 'breathing'.

If the encyclopedia was credible they would have kept at least some of it in some section of the site, but instead it was totally replace by this online guide: http://zelda.com/online-guide/ ...Which is actually far more sparse in information, and keeping in line with how mysterious and vague Aonuma and Miyamoto prefer to keep things. They didn't even copy and paste a single encyclopedia entries wording in that new online guide.

Again, as I told you, if you can give me some WoG stating that the deleted encyclopedia entries in question are credible, I'll concede. But until then, its just a non-canon, discredited, and deleted Nintendo of America creation.

Multiple references to OoT's creation story on the current site as it is in 2017, including verbatim repeat of information >>>>> A deleted encyclopedia that was not ever repeated in canon anywhere and existed in a vaccuum.



Oh no, rather its like Lorule, which is a parallel world, was created exactly like Hyrule was. Deliberately. By the Gods. Not 'accidentally' through a 'breath' that traveled beyond where they were originally.

Yuga, a Lorule resident, specifically mentions the Gods, and the Triforce exists in that world. And how is a Triforce made? After the Goddesses exit a world after creating it.

Your shitty, deleted, non-canon encyclopedia entry would have us believe that the Gods never visited these parallel worlds because they didn't even know they would come to exist.

Except the Gods are clearly known to Lorule, just like they are known to Hyrule, and they have their own Triforce to boot! This stuff just isn't jelling. sad Thank God the offending encyclopedia entry was deleted, now we don't have to worry about it anymore. wink

CosmicComet
No, as I clearly explained in that section (which you conveniently cut short), its NOT just the Deku Tree's words. That's what YOU want it to be.

The words are given to us verbatim in the OoT instruction manual as I clearly showed in my screen-capture. And just like your ALTTP instruction manual quoting, its meta-info.

Since the words that are coming out of the Deku's trees mouth is repeated elsewhere, and (not even crediting him in those locations), then its merely meta-info that is repeated to us in-game (by an extremely old, and thus intended to be very credible character.)

If it gets repeated multiple places, then its credible. Sorry, but your incessant attempt to undermine the Deku's Tree's credibility is hilarious. Even if he wasn't credible, it wouldn't matter, because its not his words in particular. It's meta-info from Nintendo that gets repeated in game.

Proof? Here. Once more: http://zelda.com/ocarina3d/story/
Straight from Zelda.com, right now, in 2017. What does it stay?

It says:

Before life began, before the world had form, three golden goddesses descended upon the chaotic land of Hyrule. They were Din, the goddess of power, Nayru, the goddess of wisdom and Farore, the goddess of courage.

Din, with her strong flaming arms, cultivated the land to create the earth. Nayru poured her wisdom onto the earth to give the spirit of law to the world. Farore's rich soul created all life forms who would uphold the law.

These three great goddesses returned to the heavens, leaving behind the sacred Triforce. Since then, the Triforce has become the basis for Hyrule's providence. Where the Triforce stood became sacred land.

In the vast, deep forest of Hyrule, the Great Deku Tree served as the Guardian Spirit. The children of the forest, the Kokiri, lived with the Great Deku Tree. Each Kokiri had his or her own guardian fairy, except one. His name was Link.

There you go, the first 4 paragraphs from the Story page, and guess what? The Deku Tree is referred to in the third person! Lol. So, it's not even his words. It's Nintendo's words, that they repeat in-game through him, since he is old and well, credible.




Once again, you are not reading the stuff you are partially quoting, you are not accurately responding at all.

There is NO contradiction between OoT's visuals and that narration. Din's ball of fire gathers a bunch of rocks together and then right *after*, it shows her flying in first person view over the world at low altitudes, even going as low as ground level, accompanied with the narration that her strong flaming arms are cultivating the land.

*Gathers land mass together with fire powers*
*Shapes it using her arms right afterward as per narration*

There is no contradiction.

There is however, no 'breathing' whatsoever ever going on, so there is definitely a contradiction between the deleted encyclopedia entry that you so desperately want to elevate above everything else vs the Game's cutscene/narration/manual meta info/product page meta info (all of which neatly agree with each other, entirely). No 'breathing', but we certainly see explicit magic powers being used however, i.e. that primordial ball of fire.


And I'm sorry, but you are so, so confused.

The Hyrule Historia matches up completely with MM's visuals. There is no contradiction. MM's visuals show a moon that is not much wider than a town, maybe twice as wide. And that multi-town sized moon is going to destroy the entire world, which the HH also agrees with. The Hyrule Historia likewise also refers to the Moon's size as being diminutive when on page 112, as I said before:

The day of destiny had arrived. The Four
Giants stretched out their arms and held
up the moon, stopping it from plunging
into the town.

So, yeah, the immediate thing it was touching down with was a town. An actual moon? Would have been touching a continent sized width.

Still, Termina's multi-town sized moon is apparently still big enough to take out their entire world. And being that its a parallel world to Hyrule, Hyrule would have been taken out by a moon of that size falling too. All of this is just an indictment of the size of the worlds in Zelda. They seem...awfully cozy to me if a small mountain sized/multi-town sized moon is all it takes to take out a world.

Perhaps the world is no bigger than its presented in Breath of the Wild? That's the most complete that its ever been seen, and yet its still no bigger than New York City. I'm not saying that's confirmed, but it wouldn't surprise me.



The phuck? The Giants aren't unquantifiable in size. We see them right next to the clock tower and they are maybe twice as tall.

Also, not sure why you posted that description when I've posted similar before about them, about how they sleep in the 4 separate regions of Termina. Nothing about that says continent sized Giants. Which they surely aren't.

The moon is seen in size comparison with 2 major things, the town, and the giants that surround the town.

And how big are those giants? Oh, right, the official concept art also shows them as small enough for skull kid to be seen close to them.

http://www.zeldainformer.com/images/articles/Skull_Kid_and_the_Four_Giants.png



Firstly man. Dueling Peaks is humble, rocky hill. It's so small that you can see an average tree growing on it from that distance, even bushes. It wasn't done by the Giants either, just some other Guardian spirits of another world. So...its irrelevant, we have no idea how we can power-scale that to the giants.

Regardless, do we even know how long it took for them to split that? If it wasn't done in a second, then I don't even consider it impressive.

Oh, and the rest of those feats have nothing to do with the Giants either, so I'm unsure why you posted them.

I'm not opposed to the idea that the moon is more durable than a similar sized landmass on the ground, but that has nothing to do with its size which is what my sticking point is.

There is no proof whatsoever that the moon is meant to be moon sized.




"Canon"
https://www.memecreator.org/static/images/templates/1302108.jpg

Right.

Because a deleted, discredited, never referenced or recalled encyclopedia entry by a non-primary source (nintendo of america) is somehow adding to the 'canon'.



Thanks for the help, I was going to post the high-concept art shots of what the 16 bit world actually looks like, but I forgot when I was editing that part into my wordpad file.

So thank you, you've confirmed that this:
http://www.zeldadungeon.net/wiki/images/thumb/b/b2/The-Creation-of-Hyrule.jpg/500px-The-Creation-of-Hyrule.jpg
...is indeed nothing but a painting/mural.

CosmicComet
It's not about what I like. There have been many other people posting reservations about the old Zelda.com, going back for years, I posted examples of why due to several pieces of flat out inaccurate info, most dubiously a timeline that used to be posted on the site way back that was completely trashed and was subsequently deleted.

And yeah, the current zelda.com, in 2017, completely contradicts your clearly non-canon deleted encyclopedia, as I highlighted the prior post.



Lets put up or shut up on this. I'm not going to respond anymore to the specifics of the this thread, only to one thing

I propose a wager


Take up my challenge if you are so confident about your deleted encyclopedia's reliability.

There will be a Hyrule Encyclopedia releasing soon in the states. If that says anything resembling the deleted encyclopedia's entry, I'll give you a $100. If it doesn't, you'll give me a $100.

I'll lighten the burden on your wager. I won't even require it to say anything about 'millions' of worlds. (We both know that was an ass-pull number by NoA that Aonuma would know anything about). All it has to say is something vague like 'many worlds' or 'an unknown number of' or 'countless worlds', but it does have to say those other worlds were created accidentally, (or similar words).

Are you in or not? No more of this running around, put your money where your mouth is or its clear you don't believe your own words.

ScreamPaste
"Before time began."

The game is not to scale, the only art you posted shows the moon on the horizon, sans face, with nothing to scale it against.
http://www.zeldainformer.com/images/articles/Skull_Kid_and_the_Four_Giants.png

thumb up



It doesn't give any scale for reference and it's not canon. Be angrier.


Repeated verbatim. They're directly quoting him, lol. And I'm not discrediting the Deku tree, the thing is there simply is no contradiction. You're running yourself in circles over Din's arms.


TIL that CC thinks his own denial is a better source than Zelda.com. Lol. Find me something that contradicts it.

" "Ha ha ha! I shall soon take my rightful place among the gods! And then the beauty of destruction will rain down upon this world! Now, I'll be taking that last piece of the Triforce from you, worm! How far you've wriggled! But at last you know your true destiny-to give me what's MINE!""

...And? Cyclos was a god, Hylia was a god, there are tons of gods in Zelda. He didn't say "the goddesses!", or anything telling at all.

Termina had gods, too, why wouldn't Lorule?

a waste of time and resources to make a critical scene of your game suck.

I've given you the Zelda.com quote. Your move.


Reading comprehension, my dude. The action of making Hyrule created millions more worlds. They did not one at a time them.


Find me a contradiction. thumb up The HH is incredibly minimalist as it is. If you want the play the game of "things HH doesn't say" you're going to have very little canon left.

Except the encyclopedia does this.
"When Hyrule was created by the three goddesses at the beginning of time, there were certain side effects of its creation which Din, Nayru and Farore did not anticipate. As the three holy women breathed life into the world and chased away Emptiness, their potent breath slipped through tiny cracks in the folds of space and created millions of alternate worlds in the process. One of these worlds became the land known as Termina. "

Women is plural, my dude. The quotes you shared and the quote that's relevant all attribute creation to the collaborative effort of the three goddesses.


Says sculpted with flaming arms. Arms neither flame no sculpt. Wew.

The process of radiating power that creates things without any physical contact is a lot closer to breathing than to sculpting. But again, that's not the point. You're trying to dance around the face that the goddesses casually created millions of alternate realities. It was an accident.

You know that moons are smaller than planets, right? If the point of contact of a moon is the size of a continent then that moon is bigger than the planet it is touching. Our moon's entire diameter is marginally larger than the diameter of _Australia_, lol. If it were to crash into, say, Tokyo, it would very much touch Tokyo before the rest of the world. >SPHERES<.


Citation needed.


I wasn't talking about their size, lol. Their strength is whats important. And guardian deities in Zelda are not to be ****ed with.


It's explicitly called a mountain in game, stop being intentionally obtuse.


Find me a contradiction. So far this is three pages of you not liking a feat.


"It is a mural. Just look at it. Do the game's graphics look like that? No? Then its a mural,"

http://orig07.deviantart.net/bb64/f/2011/266/0/3/16_bit_link_by_fawfuldude11-d4apx6v.jpg

mmm

Zelda manuals are just filled with murals, it would seem.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by CosmicComet
It's not about what I like. There have been many other people posting reservations about the old Zelda.com, going back for years, I posted examples of why due to several pieces of flat out inaccurate info, most dubiously a timeline that used to be posted on the site way back that was completely trashed and was subsequently deleted.

And yeah, the current zelda.com, in 2017, completely contradicts your clearly non-canon deleted encyclopedia, as I highlighted the prior post.



Lets put up or shut up on this. I'm not going to respond anymore to the specifics of the this thread, only to one thing

I propose a wager


Take up my challenge if you are so confident about your deleted encyclopedia's reliability.

There will be a Hyrule Encyclopedia releasing soon in the states. If that says anything resembling the deleted encyclopedia's entry, I'll give you a $100. If it doesn't, you'll give me a $100.

I'll lighten the burden on your wager. I won't even require it to say anything about 'millions' of worlds. (We both know that was an ass-pull number by NoA that Aonuma would know anything about). All it has to say is something vague like 'many worlds' or 'an unknown number of' or 'countless worlds', but it does have to say those other worlds were created accidentally, (or similar words).

Are you in or not? No more of this running around, put your money where your mouth is or its clear you don't believe your own words. Two things.
1. It not being mentioned wouldn't contradict it, so, I mean, this is a useless wager. thumb up
2. https://kek.gg/i?4pFcy-.png
C. The new book is by Nintendo Dream Magazine. I've seen parts of a translation already. It's pretty barebones, it doesn't even place BotW on the timeline.

CosmicComet
Just as I thought, you have no conviction on this whatsoever.

You are using a shitty cop-out about them not revealing BoTW's timeline placement to avoid putting your theory on the line.

And likewise you are dismissing it as 'barebones'? The phuck ? I've seen a few preview scans, and its full of images and diagrams and its supposed to be like 320 pages long.

If that premium encyclopedia is bare bones, then your deleted web encyclopedia must be non-existent in comparison.

Oh, wait, it kinda is...lol. Seeing as its been completely wiped off the website and only exists through a web archive.

It is so ironic and sad that you are trying to cling to a deleted website encyclopedia yet won't abide by an actual physical, up-to-date, premium encyclopedia. An encyclopedia that is a follow up to your vaunted Hyrule Historia.

Fear not, I will get it and will post about it. Your hesitation just strengthens my belief that it will completely and utterly contradict your deleted, outdated, and unreferenced info.

ScreamPaste
Or no money to spend on a wager that means literally nothing. thumb up

Or the book, by Nintendo Dream Magazine, has barely any info in it at all. thumb up

You brought HH up first, my dude. And it at least had Aonuma's thumbprint on pieces of it.



Who knows then, maybe when you finally get it, months from now, you'll finally be able to contradict me.

Best of luck.

dika123
ok. how about speed then ? Kratos should have FTL Speed. and Link.... ??

NotAllThatEvil
Hits lightning and slows down time. So...fast?

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