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List the chars who you think are between these two, in terms of overall combative ability.

Mace

This is difficult because Kenobi is a good "overall combatant" as a jedi general, while Dooku is much more of a dedicated fencer and sorcerer.

LOL
The likes of Cade, Jaina, Sadow etc. y'know it

Maul.

Mace, Jaina and maybe Ulic

Such short lists. Maybe the gap between these two isn't as significant for you than it is for me.

You know that my list is longer, lol.

I know, your list is roughly as long as mine. But these heretics have different views.

pre dark desciple anakin from the pt era. Ffrom other eras you could argue cade, outlander, jaina(I'd say may have surpassed dooku), meetra(though i have her below kenobi), an dmace(though i have him as = dooku)

2 many 2 name.

Not many.

Depends on where you rank them. I don't particularly rank Kenobi as high as others do.

Jaina, Ulic, Cade, Arcann,

probably.

Though all of the aforementioned are probably better than Kenobi in areas barring lightsaber ability to which they're likely his peers

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not many.

Mace.

Thats about it.

I have Kenobi above the likes of Jaina.

Dooku > Mace?

Maul, Jaina, possibly Rebels Ahsoka, KOTOR Revan/Darth Revan, Malgus and Bane are all between Kenobi - Dooku.

Jaina is *absolutely* not above Kenobi.

Being grossly inferior to Caedus and killing two Sith in three seconds doesn't compare with Kenobi's performances vs Dooku (in sabers), Maul (in sabers), Grievous (in sabers), and Anakin.

You don't really think that are her best feats do you?

First of all, she was IIRC injured and exhausted for the Sith feat.
Secondly, besting Lah is far better, as she bested Lah as her legs pinioned - so massivly hindered.
We have to consider that Lah is above any other Vong (bar Shimrra) - so above Shedao Shai.
Shai himself is
1. Above Kyp Durron, who fodderized Vong
2. Equal to a injured Corran Horn, who is damn durable.
Corran lost slightly to Kam Soulsar, around a decade prior. Kam himself fodderized a Dark Side adept of Palpatine. IIRC, they were stated to be > average Dark Jedi -and as Vill Goir was a "mentor" of them, I suppose he's even higher than the average, but that doesn't matters-, but I don't find the quote.
So, basically, 28ABY Jaina is above Lah, by a considerable marigin, who is above Shai, who's close to NJO Corran, who -by all means- should be aboce Dark Side adept stomper DE Kam.
Add in that this feats are 16 years pre-prime, and sje has ****ing Skywalker potential, then yeah, it sh!ts on blitzing two Sith.

Then we have her being "the equal of anyone in the Order", and her being compared positiely to Luke.

The first quote basically says that she's above, or at least equal to, anyone in the order -bar Luke-. That means she is above Corran Horn (who himself should be below Saba), who was equal to/above Valin, someone who did a decent performance against Caedus, and hold off Ben and Vestara, who can fodderize Sith.

She is also above Kyle. Kyle bested the Seven Dark Jedi at the beginnning of his training -you should know that feat- and was seemingly at least equal to Gaalan, someone who can hold his own against Luke on Dathomir.
Then he's above the likes of Cilghal, someone who stomped a Jedi, that bested a Mandalorian Commands, which are specially trained to best Jedi.

That Mandalorian Commander can also stomp one of the most gifted padawans of that day, IIRC.

Shai isn't above Kyp Durron, Wtf.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Shai isn't above Kyp Durron, Wtf.
Shai is based on his rank above the gummVong that was equally skilled as Kyp. But yeah, I need to make it a bit "lighter".
Obviously Kyp would destroy him with his TK, and FotJ Kyp is Shai's superior in dueling. But the point still stands.
I don't see what's so hard to believe about Shai > early NJO Kyp, dueling wise.


@Wollf I think that Commander guy blitzed Kenth's assistant.

That same Vong that supposedly was equal with Kyp, got demolished by Durron in less than a paragraph - in, you guessed it - Staff-to-'Saber combat.

The argument is a complete and utter failure, as is the statement. Dunno why you're latching on to the one retarded quote.

Fair enough.
But honestly, I don't really see how Kyp completely destroyed him.
I mean, it's called a Savage Battle, is on it self of medium lenght, and is long enough for Deak and Ganner to kill the other three Vong.

Edit: And Kyp won as the Vong was a Urs dumb prick.

1. The duel was over in less than 1/4 a page, and without cut-off scenes taking us away from the fight. Hardly an extended clash, lal.

2. The Vong Warriors were weaker than the usual while sporting inferior gear and armor. So them besting 3 doesn't have to mean the fight was a solidly long affair or anything.

Still, my 'in betweens' were pretty accurate tbh.

Defeating Lah (rofl) and being better than Katarn (not by much, if at all) isn't better than beating Grievous, rendering Dooku's offense null, and back-handing Mustafar Anakin's attacks.

But better than blitzing two Sith, that's my point

@Deronn You prove me wrong.

Okay? Unless you're arguing Lah is better than Grievous and friends, your case is pretty meaningless. It's just a nitpick.

It's just a response to your lowballing Jaina in last time
If anything, that Jaina was hindered and 15 years pre-prime is the point, lol.

Yeah, the fact that those feats happened more than a decade prior to her prime, and considering her potential, she logically improved vastly afterwards.

By the time she fought Caedus, she was stated to be inferior to the Council.

I doubt she improved vastly in the short gap to FotJ.

Alright, so where do you rank her? And do you have a different opinion regarding the rest of my choices?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
By the time she fought Caedus, she was stated to be inferior to the Council.
And yet she is stated to be >/= the other Jedi in FotJ.
Also, she says that herself, and IIRC she bootliked Corran at this time to fight Jacen herself.

Not high. She was weaker and less skilled than Katarn and Horn when she went off to fight Caedus, like I said. I doubt she improved enough to scratch Kenobi's defenses.

Your list is fine, although Ahsoka Tano doesn't hold a candle vs Kenobi.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


Your list is fine, although Ahsoka Tano doesn't hold a candle vs Kenobi.

Considering how she did against Vader and Maul, I'd say it's reasonable for her to be there.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
And yet she is stated to be >/= the other Jedi in FotJ.
Also, she says that herself, and IIRC she bootliked Corran at this time to fight Jacen herself.
No. She's just said to be their equal in FotJ.

Originally posted by Petrus
Considering how she did against Vader and Maul, I'd say it's reasonable for her to be there.
Not at all. She only skirmished Maul and performed worse than ANH Kenobi vs Vader.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No. She's just said to be their equal.

Also, she wasn't below Kyle and Corran, as of LotF, lel.
Denning also said that Jaina was above them as of FotJ.

She conceded inferiority to all the Masters of the Council when asking permission to go off to fight Caedus. It's directly stated.

And it's =, not >=. Unless you can provide the Denning quote.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Not at all. She only skirmished Maul and performed worse than ANH Kenobi vs Vader.

Nah, she didn't perform badly at all.

Add Filoni's statement to that, and it adds up.

I guess where you rank ANH Kenobi compared to his RotS iteration also matters.

I never said she performed badly.

I said she performed worse than ANH Kenobi

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I never said she performed badly.

I said she performed worse than ANH Kenobi

Is ANH Kenobi > RotS Kenobi in your book?

ANH Kenobi is unquestionably an inferior lightsaber duelist, both in Legends and Canon.

Who believes ANH Kenobi was greater than Rots Kenobi ?

Let's see...perhaps people like Uliq, unamped Malak, DoE Bane maybe, SoR Hero of Tython

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying at the start there.

I'm comparing the ANH fight with Tano vs Vader using the comic, novel, and encyclopedic-based material, primarily.

No. The new "Star Wars" comics established Kenobi's lightsaber abilities got rusty even in the new Canon. That makes sense, since he only picks up a lightsaber twice in 19 years (his fight vs Maul included).

The issue with that quote is that it doesn't take higher canonical authority than the website, which decisively establishes Maul as the more powerful opponent. The quote also doesn't make a lot of sense. It seems to be suggesting even Palpatine or Talzin would be out of their game if Yoda confronted them, despite us knowing that a Yoda vs Palpatine confrontation would be equal or leaning Palpatine. Same applies for his comments on Ahsoka: we see Tano vs Maul fight and blatantly see that Maul can "match her in this time period blow for blow." As silly as the argument seems, I'd have to say Filoni just forgot about Maul when making the statement in the same way he forgot about Palpatine with the Yoda one.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying at the start there.

I'm comparing the ANH fight with Tano vs Vader using the comic, novel, and encyclopedic-based material, primarily.

No. The new "Star Wars" comics established Kenobi's lightsaber abilities got rusty even in the new Canon. That makes sense, since he only picks up a lightsaber twice in 19 years (his fight vs Maul included).

The issue with that quote is that it doesn't take higher canonical authority than the website, which decisively establishes Maul as the more powerful opponent. The quote also doesn't make a lot of sense. It seems to be suggesting even Palpatine or Talzin would be out of their game if Yoda confronted them, despite us knowing that a Yoda vs Palpatine confrontation would be equal or leaning Palpatine. Same applies for his comments on Ahsoka: we see Tano vs Maul fight and blatantly see that Maul can "match her in this time period blow for blow." As silly as the argument seems, I'd have to say Filoni just forgot about Maul when making the statement in the same way he forgot about Palpatine with the Yoda one.
I don't know how to use the quick quote system so I'll letter my counters if you don't mind
1. In the canon ben and vader fought, vader was a "shadow of his former self"
the vader ahsoka fought was vader in his prime. Its two different versions of vader
2. IIRC the comic and death star showed thta ben would have eventually lost iirc.
3.Hmm, was unaware of this, could you link me? I guess that means rebels maul will likely be out of prime too. It is possible force growth made up for this though tillw e get anything in new canon about that, thats just speculation
4. SW.COM has higher canonical value than feloni? based on?
5. Maul and tano fighting for a minute doesn't mean ahsoka wouldn't have eventually won. Not being equals doens't mean they can't be incridebly close
6. Maul was mentioned in that interview

Anakin but reversed, he beats Dooku but loses to Kenobi

A lot of the more powerful Old Republic people probably fit into this area.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying at the start there.

I'm comparing the ANH fight with Tano vs Vader using the comic, novel, and encyclopedic-based material, primarily.

No. The new "Star Wars" comics established Kenobi's lightsaber abilities got rusty even in the new Canon. That makes sense, since he only picks up a lightsaber twice in 19 years (his fight vs Maul included).

The issue with that quote is that it doesn't take higher canonical authority than the website, which decisively establishes Maul as the more powerful opponent. The quote also doesn't make a lot of sense. It seems to be suggesting even Palpatine or Talzin would be out of their game if Yoda confronted them, despite us knowing that a Yoda vs Palpatine confrontation would be equal or leaning Palpatine. Same applies for his comments on Ahsoka: we see Tano vs Maul fight and blatantly see that Maul can "match her in this time period blow for blow." As silly as the argument seems, I'd have to say Filoni just forgot about Maul when making the statement in the same way he forgot about Palpatine with the Yoda one.

Wasn't the Ahsoka quote from before Maul's debut? If so, then it'd make sense that Filoni wasn't interested in spoiling Maul.

And he did say once that nobody could compete with the Emperor and that Sidious was better than anybody else. He arguably "forgot about Yoda" there too.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Wasn't the Ahsoka quote from before Maul's debut? If so, then it'd make sense that Filoni wasn't interested in spoiling Maul.

And he did say once that nobody could compete with the Emperor and that Sidious was better than anybody else. He arguably "forgot about Yoda" there too.
Maul was mentioned at the start of that interview article, he wasn't a spoiler
and iirc to what you're eferring to he was specifically referring to siidous vs maul and oppress, this quote isn't in any sort of context like that

Maul's combative abilities, not Maul himself. Given that what we see in the episode blatantly contradicts that statement, I'm kind of inclined to take it with a grain of salt.

And no, Filoni says that Sidious had to be the strongest guy in TCW, which was his justification for him curbstomping Maul and Savage.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
She conceded inferiority to all the Masters of the Council when asking permission to go off to fight Caedus. It's directly stated.

I vaguely remember her saying this, something like they are more qualified than her to go after her brother or some such, but we all know this is kinda stupid. Unless one actually believes the likes of Cilghal, Tionne and Octa Ramis are superior to Jaina.

As they said something like "You are only a Knight" she responded with "So is Jacen". Obviously she knew that they wouldn't care, -tho it was to her advandtadge- so she tried to blandish them, saying that they and several Knights are more skilled. So, she basically says that she isn't even in the Top 10, or might not even Top 15, of the most skilled Jedi of the NJO - which would be kinda stupid.

"I know that you Masters-and several Jedi Knights-are more skilled in both Force and lightsaber than I am. But I'm his twin sister. I'll have advantages no one else will." ---Jaina Solo to Corran Horn

Yeah, no. The quote's as direct as it gets: Jaina not being in the top ten of the LOTF era is not only likely, but pretty firmly established.

Yeah, no.
Do you really want to say that Cilghal andTionne are better en Jaina.
She has no reason to lie? She tries to Bootlick them, like I said several times. She knows that it wouldn't be fruitful when she just says "Dude, I am far better than you are".

But if she's really below the whole council in LotF, then yeah, she's prolly above Obi as of FotJ

Sure. That's what Jaina said, and I have no reason to believe she was biting her tongue when saying it.

You do, but that's because you're invested in the character for whatever reason.

"Bootlicking" isn't going to work on a Jedi, especially the Jedi Council. Jaina "bootlicking" them is actually really risky. It's completely un-Jedi-like and could call into question her character, integrity, and mental state for the mission at hand. If Jaina was more skilled and powerful than them, she would leverage that to her advantage - not concede the point before they have the opportunity to raise it.

Damn, it seems both Solo twins have been debunked.

Or she was just lowballing herself, like Jacen did in TUF.


Umm...no? That's the same like you and Malak, as example.
Also,nope that isn't the point.


Why not? If they think that she's inferior to them, it's better for her to agree with them instead of arguing with them. After all, her only real goal was fighting Caedus herself - something she can't do when the Council don't wants it. So she tries everything possible that she can fight Caedus.

---
But now to the point.
Like said in my first post, TUF Jaina > hindered Jaina ~ Lah > slightly injured Corran ~ Shai >/= Kam >(>?) DE Kam. DE Kam being able to stomp one of Palpatine's Dark Side elite adepts.
These guys should be rather easily above your average Dark Jedi, as they are being able to create Sentinels, can channel the power of deceased Sith and can create amulets and enhance weapons with Sith Alchemy.
So Jaina only as of TUF is quite vastly above DE Kam, who can stomp very powerful Dark Jedi.
'til LotF she should logically grow quite a bit, as 20 year old Skywalker.
Still, Cilghal is ahead of her as of LotF. Gaalan, who was placed with Kyp and Kyle by Luke, would've been to much for Cilghal. And yet, Jaina, the combative equal of anyone in the Order, is at least equal with Kyp and Kyle.
So, she is practically far above TUF Luke, who is quite easily superior to DE Kam, someone who can stomp Dark Side Adepts.
I honestly don't see Kenobi being that good.

Urs, all of your shit scaling is starting to hurt mah head.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Urs, all of your shit scaling is starting to hurt mah head.
Thank you

It wasn't a compliment. Nothing you've posted proves she is > Kenobi, or even an equal.

I'm not criticising Urs but I've always been skeptical about NJO scaling and placement.

Urs went full retard.

That he did.

There is other routes he could have took to prove Jaina's standing instead of crazy, convulated power-scaling.

The result would be the same, Kenobi > Jaina

Perhaps.

I guess a case could be made for her being his superior in the Force, though I don't care about Jaina enough to make that argument. Perhaps Urs or Wollf can.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Maul's combative abilities, not Maul himself. Given that what we see in the episode blatantly contradicts that statement, I'm kind of inclined to take it with a grain of salt.

And no, Filoni says that Sidious had to be the strongest guy in TCW, which was his justification for him curbstomping Maul and Savage. Maul's combative abilities, not Maul himself.
1.The article the interview is poste din mentions maul returning at the start
2. Them fightng evenly for a minuite doesn't at all blatantaly contradict ahoska being able to beat maul
3. Well sidious is marginally>yoda anyhow

Not totally related, but where would yall place leia

Darth Malak, Darth Malgus, Mid-Late TCWs Anakin

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Or she was just lowballing herself, like Jacen did in TUF.

Again, lowballing herself would be extremely detrimental to her own case.

So, she's not lowballing herself. She's addressing a point that would have been raised against her on her own terms so she can quickly move on to what's actually going to support her.



Exactly. Hence why lowballing herself / "bootlicking" the Council wouldn't work.

If she wants to try everything possible that can help her fight Caedus, she's not going to do something that would help her not fight Caedus.

If they think she's inferior to them, there's a reason.




TUF Jaina isn't more powerful nor skilled than any of the Jedi Council, so no.

Corran was roughly on par with Shai at the start of the Yuuzhan Vong (i.e. 25 ABY). It was so close to the start of the war that Chewbacca's funeral actually took place after Corran defeated Shai. Jaina's triumph over Lah takes place three years later: three years of further adapting to Yuuzhan Vong technology, strategy, strengths, etc. Corran Horn by 28 ABY would almost certainly defeat Lah.

Why?

Because he's stated to be better than Jaina in LOTF.

You're not geting around that.

Any scaling you do for Jaina Solo prior to that time-period will be dismissed due to her inferiority to the entire Council as of LOTF.

Any scaling you do for Jaina Solo after that time-period will be dismissed because the notion of a dramatic jump in abilities to that above Kenobi is absurd.



Irrelevant if LOTF Jaina is still inferior to the Jedi Council.



Apparently she grew less than Solusar did, if she was superior to him at some point but is behind him in LOTF.







So Jaina was inferior to Cilghal in LotF, but surpassed her by FOTJ.

Great. She's better than the worst of the Council.

She's still tiers away from scratching Obi-Wan Kenobi.



https://media.giphy.com/media/CDJo4EgHwbaPS/giphy.gif



You don't see Kenobi being above Cilghal (the only character Jaina's confirmed to be superior by the end of FOTJ)?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsM-fpkK2aQ&t=3m56s