Countdown Orion Vs WW 3 Black Adam

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Zack M
Same Orion who blasted away the JLA like they were nothing and killed Darkseid.

WW 3 Black Adam. Who wins?

Galan007
Adam most likely.

Granted, this berserker Orion certainly *seemed* like he was far above the likes of Superman+Flash+Kyle+Donna, given how casually he gestured them away:
https://s6d6.turboimg.net/t1/33292631_Countdown_to_Final_Crisis_002-009.jpg https://s6d6.turboimg.net/t1/33292643_Countdown_to_Final_Crisis_002-010.jpg https://s6d6.turboimg.net/t1/33292654_Countdown_to_Final_Crisis_002-011.jpg https://s6d6.turboimg.net/t1/33292666_Countdown_to_Final_Crisis_002-012.jpg

...But I don't think that alone is enough to put him above a guy who steamrolled through FAR more. /shrug

quanchi112
Adam wins. Punching through Darkseid isn't very impressive.

cdtm
Originally posted by Galan007
Adam most likely.

Granted, this berserker Orion certainly *seemed* like he was far above the likes of Superman+Flash+Kyle+Donna, given how casually he gestured them away:
https://s6d6.turboimg.net/t1/33292631_Countdown_to_Final_Crisis_002-009.jpg https://s6d6.turboimg.net/t1/33292643_Countdown_to_Final_Crisis_002-010.jpg https://s6d6.turboimg.net/t1/33292654_Countdown_to_Final_Crisis_002-011.jpg https://s6d6.turboimg.net/t1/33292666_Countdown_to_Final_Crisis_002-012.jpg

...But I don't think that alone is enough to put him above a guy who steamrolled through FAR more. /shrug

Pulling a heart out of a chest as durable as Darkseid's is an INSANE feat of strength, though. MUCH more impressive then breaking an arm.

Orion should be strong enough to rip Adam's arms right off, going by that feat.

Galan007
^ Orion was able to kill Darkseid due to the whole father/son/prophecy dynamic that existed between them -- not because he was legitimately more powerful or w/e.

It is akin to Drax killing Thanos in that sense.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Galan007
^ Orion was able to kill Darkseid due to the whole father/son/prophecy dynamic that existed between them -- not because he was legitimately more powerful or w/e.

It is akin to Drax killing Thanos in that sense. No, it isn't. He didn't have specific silver bullet enclosing in his DNA. Also Orion already fulfilled the prophecy in new gods. It isn't the same thing at all. Doomsday already easily broke Darkseid much easier while resisting his omega effect. Superman also made him tap out in apokolips now in a fair one on one fight. Darkseid is just a peer to these guys.

Galan007
Again:
Originally posted by Galan007
^ Orion was able to kill Darkseid due to the whole father/son/prophecy dynamic that existed between them -- not because he was legitimately more powerful or w/e.

I know this because the comic said so. smile

Juntai
LOL. He literally says he's fulfilling the prophecy in the scan you posted.

cdtm
Quan has a point though. Prophecy fullfilling doesn't usually mean extranormal abilities.

You could tell Drax was Thano's Kryptonite because he was actually glowing green before he killed him. As far as we know, Orion was always strong enough to rip Darkseid's heart out of his chest, and the prophecy wasn't granting him abilities towards that end, but simply confirmed someday, it was gonna happen.

Galan007
As seen in DotNG, the father/son/prophecy dynamic also entails a power-equalizing element. That's how Orion was able to defeat Soulfire Darkseid, for example.

celeyhyga17
I thought it was because Orion had somehow started to tap into the same power source. The source seemed to cite his make up being similar to DS seeing as he's the son. *shrug*

quanchi112
Originally posted by Galan007
As seen in DotNG, the father/son/prophecy dynamic also entails a power-equalizing element. That's how Orion was able to defeat Soulfire Darkseid, for example. Orion tapped into the same power. There's context so don't try to mislead. Drax had the silver bullet encoded into his DNA. Orion has never been described in this manner in relation to Darkseid.

TethAdamTheRock
Orion

-K-M-
Originally posted by cdtm
Quan has a point though. Prophecy fullfilling doesn't usually mean extranormal abilities.

You could tell Drax was Thano's Kryptonite because he was actually glowing green before he killed him. As far as we know, Orion was always strong enough to rip Darkseid's heart out of his chest, and the prophecy wasn't granting him abilities towards that end, but simply confirmed someday, it was gonna happen.

Always strong enough? You do realize they have fought many times before this right? Orion never looked this good

celeyhyga17
Prophecy/destiny shouldn't detract from actual feats. Now if the prophecy was very specific and stated that Darkseid will have bouts of weakness whenever he battles his son, that's something.

quanchi112
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Prophecy/destiny shouldn't detract from actual feats. Now if the prophecy was very specific and stated that Darkseid will have bouts of weakness whenever he battles his son, that's something. Exactly my point. With Drax it was pointed out but this false comparison without actual proof is just reaching.

-K-M-
Darkseid didn't even die there regardless. Since Orion was being backed by the source he could "kill" him
-----
Spectre kills Darkseid in combat, but little did Spectre know is DS is protected by the Source and revives him as he is important to the universe being the “negative charge” in it. It’s also revealed if Spectre was successful in killing DS, he in turn would become Darkseid himself

1. http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/TheSpectre19V4-08.jpg
2. http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/TheSpectre19V4-09.jpg
3. http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/TheSpectre19V4-10.jpg
4. http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/TheSpectre19V4-12.jpg

Galan007
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I thought it was because Orion had somehow started to tap into the same power source. The father/son/prophecy dynamic between them is what allowed Orion to tap into the same power source as Darkseid, and equalize their powers:
http://i.imgur.com/D5xJzay.jpg

Sin I AM
Originally posted by Galan007
The father/son/prophecy dynamic between them is what allowed Orion to tap into the same power source as Darkseid, and equalize their powers:
http://i.imgur.com/D5xJzay.jpg

👍

quanchi112
Originally posted by Galan007
The father/son/prophecy dynamic between them is what allowed Orion to tap into the same power source as Darkseid, and equalize their powers:
http://i.imgur.com/D5xJzay.jpg Yes, and this only applies to death not the countdown battle. He wasn't stealing any power at the point Orion took him. He was standard Seid.

-K-M-
That was also seid who literally was fighting Superman and jimmy Olson that had the soulfire power just before his fight with Orion too

However the death scene clearly showed there is literally a connection and not merely just a prophecy. If it was just a prophecy as in foretold in the future and nothing more then how could he take a portion of the soulfire?

quanchi112
Originally posted by -K-M-
That was also seid who literally was fighting Superman and jimmy Olson that had the soulfire power just before his fight with Orion too

However the death scene clearly showed there is literally a connection and not merely just a prophecy. If it was just a prophecy as in foretold in the future and nothing more then how could he take a portion of the soulfire? He wasn't fresh I agree. But his powers aren't enhanced to kill Darkseid. In the scene Galan provided he could tap into the powers stolen but since they weren't being stolen both were at standard levels.

Orion doesn't have the kill code silver bullet as does Drax. That was described word for word but has never been described in such a manner for Orion and Darkseid's relationship. Apples to oranges.

Galan007
In the scene I posted, Orion is able tap into the same celestial power source as Darkseid BECAUSE OF the father/son/prophecy dynamic that exists between them. It's stated right there on panel.

This is the same reason he was able to 'kill' Darkseid in Countdown. Again, it's stated right there on panel. thumb up

quanchi112
Originally posted by Galan007
In the scene I posted, Orion is able tap into the same celestial power source as Darkseid BECAUSE OF the father/son/prophecy dynamic that exists between them. It's stated right there on panel.

This is the same reason he was able to 'kill' Darkseid in Countdown. Again, it's stated right there on panel. thumb up There was no celestial power source in countdown. The amp was severed. He is powerful enough to kill Darkseid. Whether or not you believe he is formidable enough is another matter altogether.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by Galan007
The father/son/prophecy dynamic between them is what allowed Orion to tap into the same power source as Darkseid, and equalize their powers:
http://i.imgur.com/D5xJzay.jpg
Yes. That is the very scene I described. Imo the scene is describing the similarity in makeup between Orion and Ds which ultimately allowed for the former to tap into DS's secret soul cache. Remember the soulfire formula as DS stated, allowed only his unique spirit to access the power. And as the Source stated in the scan, Orion was very much like his father and allowed the sharing/tapping into DS's power source. Something DS obviously did not foresee.

I don't think there was an all encompassing father/son dynamic "power" that is allowing for this to happen.

This goes the same for their fight in Countdown. It's a high end showing that belongs to Orion allowing him to exhibit power beyond regular portrayals. You said it yourself. He dismissed the JLA like they were weak feebs in the very same issue. Orion was simply operating at a higher level.

Galan007
In both scenes the father/son/prophecy dynamic was explicitly stated to be in play. Not only did the Source Being itself describe that prophecy, but more importantly, he told us the reason *why* Orion was able to match Darkseid -- he can tap into the same energy source, and equalize their powers. This is only possible because of their inherent connection. thumb up

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by Galan007
In both scenes the father/son/prophecy dynamic was explicitly stated to be in play. Not only did the Source Being itself describe that prophecy, but more importantly, he told us the reason *why* Orion was able to match Darkseid -- he can tap into the same energy source, and equalize their powers. This is only possible because of their inherent connection. thumb up
K. So that we're clear. What exactly in this father/son/prophecy dynamic you are stating causes Orion to match DS? When It's in play, are you saying that Orion's powers grow while Darkseid's diminish? Your description is a bit vague to me.

Btw during DotNG, it is pretty clear what the Source stated as to why O was able to share in the powers of the soul cache... That being he is the "scion" of DS and is very much like him in regards to their souls/spirit.

And again Orion dismissed the JLA as if he was operating on another level in Countdown. If you say only because of some "dynamic" was in play b/n them he is able to match DS, why did this dynamic spill over into his interactions with his teammates. There's no all encompassing prophecy that governs his relationship with them that I know of.

cdtm
Originally posted by -K-M-
Always strong enough? You do realize they have fought many times before this right? Orion never looked this good

He looked pretty damned good in Simonson's run.

Less rip your heart out, and more martial arts refinement. IMO, it was a better fight then Supermans boring slugfest, and really showcased his fighting skills.

Galan007
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
K. So that we're clear. What exactly in this father/son/prophecy dynamic you are stating causes Orion to match DS? When It's in play, are you saying that Orion's powers grow while Darkseid's diminish? Your description is a bit vague to me. Not sure why there is any confusion..? My opinion is pretty straight forward, as it comes straight from the statements made in both scenes:


thumb up

-K-M-
Originally posted by cdtm
He looked pretty damned good in Simonson's run.

Less rip your heart out, and more martial arts refinement. IMO, it was a better fight then Supermans boring slugfest, and really showcased his fighting skills.

That was also a fight darkseid intentially lost on purpose. When he was serious in the same run he was put down by DS fairly easily

It was a great fight. But not countdown level in power

Zack M
Originally posted by -K-M-
That was also a fight darkseid intentially lost on purpose. When he was serious in the same run he was put down by DS fairly easily

It was a great fight. But not countdown level in power

What about the fight where Orion jumped inside Darkseid's body and ripped him apart from the inside?

Galan007
Originally posted by -K-M-
That was also a fight darkseid intentially lost on purpose. When he was serious in the same run he was put down by DS fairly easily

It was a great fight. But not countdown level in power Yeah, it is clear that Orion was operating on a completely different level in Countdown than we had ever seen before.

-K-M-

quanchi112
Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, it is clear that Orion was operating on a completely different level in Countdown than we had ever seen before. Nah.

carver9
Well, with that said, Orion really doesn't have any fts that out him above Mid Herald. Hell, it's debatable if he is in this tier tbh.

Delta1938
Originally posted by Zack M
What about the fight where Orion jumped inside Darkseid's body and ripped him apart from the inside?

Can't quote K-M, but I was going to add the fight was also inside The Source and they were doing strange things, both inside and effects through-out the universe, so even if Orion did it against Darkseid's will, difficult at best to say Orion could have done that outside The Source.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
Well, with that said, Orion really doesn't have any fts that out him above Mid Herald. Hell, it's debatable if he is in this tier tbh.

I thought we went by fights? Wut?

Galan007
Originally posted by carver9
Well, with that said, Orion really doesn't have any fts that out him above Mid Herald. Hell, it's debatable if he is in this tier tbh. laughing out loud

The guy who consistently proves himself to be in Superman's tier...the guy who has, in fact, stalemated a sunamped Superman on one occasion...May not even be mid-herald.

Stay classy, carv. thumb up

cdtm
Originally posted by -K-M-
That was also a fight darkseid intentially lost on purpose. When he was serious in the same run he was put down by DS fairly easily

It was a great fight. But not countdown level in power

I don't remember him being put down. As good an excuse as any to re-read that great run. smile

I will say I don't think it's in Darkseid's character to throw a match on purpose. He was really trying to kill Orion.. Everything in his history points to him as a darwinist, where strength is everything, and an Orion who can't hang with his best isn't fit to be his son, let alone fulfill a prophecy (Plus, why jump through hoops if he could simply kill him?)

He simply had an "plan within a plan" if he lost. Can't beat him down? Then mess with his head, weaken him, corrupt him, ect...

-K-M-
Originally posted by cdtm
I don't remember him being put down. As good an excuse as any to re-read that great run. smile

I will say I don't think it's in Darkseid's character to throw a match on purpose. He was really trying to kill Orion.. Everything in his history points to him as a darwinist, where strength is everything, and an Orion who can't hang with his best isn't fit to be his son, let alone fulfill a prophecy (Plus, why jump through hoops if he could simply kill him?)

He simply had an "plan within a plan" if he lost. Can't beat him down? Then mess with his head, weaken him, corrupt him, ect...

No. I posted an example earlier where he explained he intentially lost in the source as a means to mess with the universe and corrupt the source. That was his primary objective. When he was serious he quickly put Orion down

In the fight you were refering to Orion used a shield to send darkseid omega blast back at Him and everyone assumed he died. However DS admits later he could have easily killed Orion (prior to gaining the ALE), but pretended to even die to further stain his soul so that Darksied and him could rule the universe. Orion had the anti-life equation at that time

1. http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/orion13kebbin15-1.jpg
2. http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/orion014OCD-21.jpg
3. http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/orion014OCD-22.jpg
4. http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/orion15kebbin08.jpg

cdtm
Darkseid's also got an ego.

I do remember the points you're bringing up. But what if Orion hadn't blocked thw Omega effect, as Darkseid planned?

What's more reasonable, that Darkseid was actively trying to lose in a match that laid waste to a good portion of Apokolips (That final rush created an explosion like something out of Dragon Ball). Or, that Darkseid was playing a Xanatos Gambit?

As TVTropes puts it, a Xanatos Gambit works like "If I win, I win. If I lose, I win.

And ftr, David Xanatos lost many a fight to Goliath.. Not one of them did he give away, but every single loss was set up so a loss lead into another plan.

-K-M-
Originally posted by cdtm
Darkseid's also got an ego.

I do remember the points you're bringing up. But what if Orion hadn't blocked thw Omega effect, as Darkseid planned?

What's more reasonable, that Darkseid was actively trying to lose in a match that laid waste to a good portion of Apokolips (That final rush created an explosion like something out of Dragon Ball). Or, that Darkseid was playing a Xanatos Gambit?

As TVTropes puts it, a Xanatos Gambit works like "If I win, I win. If I lose, I win.

And ftr, David Xanatos lost many a fight to Goliath.. Not one of them did he give away, but every single loss was set up so a loss lead into another plan.

He knew orion had the shield to reflect it back at him. That was explained. Orion literally made it specifically for this fight and DS knew it. If he didn't block it then he would have just teleported Orion away or found another way to fake his death as that was his ultimate goal. However as mentioned it was always the main plan to make Orion think he killed him and to take over apokolips to corrupt his soul. It worked...as planned. Explained in several issues

Orion was never really a serious threat to DS. I have read all their fights. Compare all their previous fights with the countdown one. It was hugely hugely different.

His defeats were not some plan B,C,D, etc. As he mentioned they were always plan A and they worked. You're choosing to argue what is said and shown in the comics to fit your narrative which again contradict what is said and shown

cdtm
I'm arguing based on common sense and Darkseid's character. stick out tongue

And ftr, this is a view Simonson himself was pushing (on my query) on Alvaro's New Gods board (Long since gone down the gutter, as they only have a limited archive.)

And I know, creator comments aren't viable, plus I can't prove it (Have I ever intentionally lied? smile )

But I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on this one.

-K-M-
Originally posted by cdtm
I'm arguing based on common sense and Darkseid's character. stick out tongue

And ftr, this is a view Simonson himself was pushing (on my query) on Alvaro's New Gods board (Long since gone down the gutter, as they only have a limited archive.)

And I know, creator comments aren't viable, plus I can't prove it (Have I ever intentionally lied? smile )

But I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on this one.

Ummmm.......you're going to question knowledge of Darkseid's character to me? erm

http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=8563.0

I am well versed on the character

cdtm
Originally posted by -K-M-
Ummmm.......you're going to question knowledge of Darkseid's character to me? erm

http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=8563.0

I am well versed on the character

Well, I wasn't intending to have a nerd-out on it.

But thanks for linking to your thread. I intend to go through it. smile


All I meant by my earlier comment, is that based on what I've personally read of the character (Which includes Byrnes, Simonson's, and Kirby's runs. More recent stuff too, but I prefer to ignore the Jobberseid era. stick out tongue ), I can't see him pulling his punch's. I just don't think he would.

Plan to lose, because he thinks Orion is up to it? Ok, fine. Perform moves he knows his son will block\reflect? Sure.

But hold back? Never. Every punch, every kick, every charge was the best he had.


And that's all from me. I'll check out that thread.

-K-M-
Again it's not in character for darkseid to fight for no reason or to test his mettle. As noted many times by him fighting is beneath him and as noted in the issues where he lost ON PURPOSE to serve his ultimate goal. That was his main plan. Wasn't a fail back plan, plan b, plan c that was always his original plan. Which again was directly stated multiple times and your assertion goes against his character and what is shown and stated in the comic. Not sure how this is a debate

After the fights he lost on purpose he owns Orion right after when he took it serious and he mocks him to think he could beat or kill him without darkseid wanting it.

Philosopha
Originally posted by Galan007
laughing out loud

The guy who consistently proves himself to be in Superman's tier...the guy who has, in fact, stalemated a sunamped Superman on one occasion...May not even be mid-herald.

Stay classy, carv. thumb up

Probably one of the most underrated showings here - he outperformed the entire JL against Superman.

cdtm
King of the World?

abhilegend
Yes

cdtm
Thanks. thumb up

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