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Who wins

Kenobi.

Srsly tho, Kao.

Holding his own against Maul > holding his own against Vindician & Malgus, imho.

Kaio-Ken, unless Kenobi uses teh dark side.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Holding his own against Maul > holding his own against Vindician & Malgus, imho.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo


Seriously tho, not sure where to rank Kao.

Kao bc Kenobi won't be amped

Kao solidly

Kao

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Kaio-Ken, unless Kenobi uses teh dark side.

Kaio-Ken Darach. I like it.

Kao.

Originally posted by Trocity


Srsly tho, Kao.

Darach

Kenobi. You could argue he wins this at age 17 given his performances against QUi-Gon and Xanatos at that age. I doubt Bondara (who has the same hype as Kao and then some) could do much better.

Kenobi's closeness to Qui-Gon should grant him the win.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Kenobi's closeness to Qui-Gon should grant him the win.
you're saying qui gon would shit on kao?

Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
you're saying qui gon would shit on kao?
I'd imagine he's better, being one of the most skilled jedi in history and holding his own against Darth Maul.

Kao Cen Darach stomps.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I'd imagine he's better, being one of the most skilled jedi in history and holding his own against Darth Maul.
You do not even need that accolade for Kao Cen Darach to declare him as being one of the most skilled Jedi in history - the dueling skills he showcased in a single fight is far from norm in any visual medium or even in literature. And holding his own against the duo of Darth Malgus and Lord Vindican > Darth Maul.

Vindican and young Malgus aren't > Maul LMFAO

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
the dueling skills he showcased in a single fight is far from norm in any visual medium or even in literature.
When your argument depends on cool fight choreography, it's time to take the L that is appropriately placed before the rest of your name.

TPM Maul would absolutely pound Darach into a pulp, and apparently Kenobi is very close to Qui Gon, so yeah, he wins.

kao could be very close to qui gon too tbh, qui gons best is an accolade similar to kaos

Kenobi absolutely butchers him. The fact that Kao is being handed the win based on his performance against rookie Malgus and peasant Vindican is pathetic. Obi-Wan,pre-TPM, was capable of seriously pressing Qui-Gon in a sparring session, who as others have noted, has actually been stated as one of the most skilled Jedi in history. Qui-Gon was considerably superior to the likes of Anoon Bondara, who has been more than once stated as one of the best fighters in the Order in the combative Prime of the Jedi, and a fighter with few equals in the height of Jedi prowess and talent. Looking through Kao's respect thread, I see no such accolades on par with any of that, of even ones of comparable value. And whilst his resilience against very difficult odds in Return marks him out as a skilled Jedi Master, I'm not seeing it being remotely sufficient to give him the win over one of the best and most talented combatants in history.

This thread is giving me aids. Kenobi wins.

Originally posted by ILS
This thread is giving me aids. Kenobi wins.
lmao what, kao wins this you're nuts if you think otherwise

Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
lmao what, kao wins this you're nuts if you think otherwise Not really. Qui-Gon's accolade is much better than Kao's, and Kenobi wasn't far off Jinn at all by the time of TPM. Even Anoon Bondara's accolade of being considered as one of the best duelists in the order is better than any of Kao's.

Maul's in a different stratosphere from the Sith Kao fought, so I wouldn't say there is any reason Kenobi would be below him.

kao was a battlemaster bro, is tpm kenobi beating cin drallig lol?

Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
kao was a battlemaster bro, is tpm kenobi beating cin drallig lol? All battlemasters are equal? Battlemasters > everyone else in the order? What's your point?

But it's a TOR Battlemaster ILS.

Fuk i forgot

Originally posted by ILS
All battlemasters are equal? Battlemasters > everyone else in the order? What's your point?
Think logically instead of this lame quote vs. quote argument. You really think newbie!Kenobi is above someone who:


mastered all forms
could hang with 2 admittedly mediocre Sith while wielding a single lightsaber and a double-bladed lightsaber simultaneously


Kenobi hadn't even mastered Ataru yet. So obviously, Kao is far above him in raw lightsaber skill. And he's not a completely featless chump when it comes to Force powers, as he:


absorbed/deflected lightning on his lightsaber
used basic lightsaber throw
had some moderate to decent TK feats


I don't believe Kenobi has anything to compare here either. If he does, post it. So far, Kao is quite a bit more skilled and more powerful. Not to mention that Jinn's own accolade(s) as one of the most skilled ever swordsmen, while impressive, would also go for Kao. All Battlemasters would go down as some of the most skilled Jedi in history. That said, I'm not sure if you're trolling tho?

To be knighted you have to master 2 lightsaber forms, considering Kenobi was a knight by the end of TPM I seriously doubt he didn't master Ataru. Nice try tho.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
To be knighted you have to master 2 lightsaber forms, considering Kenobi was a knight by the end of TPM I seriously doubt he didn't master Ataru. Nice try tho.
Your eager response is gratifying. Source, tho? Pretty sure that some source mentions that Kenobi stopped training in Ataru after Qui-Gon's death. Not that it matters, as Kao would still be considerably more versed on lightsaber forms than Obi-Wan, even if Obi-Wan had mastered 2 forms.

Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
Think logically instead of this lame quote vs. quote argument. Got you. We'll only use the evidence Jack likes, and we'll ignore the other stuff. Out of universe omniscient commentary is unreliable, but as we're about to see, using saber throw is of the utmost importance.
That newbie was, I repeat, nearly equal to one of the best swordsmen the Jedi have ever produced, in 25,000 years.

Yeah, pretty much. Mastering all forms lends a great deal of versatility, and is an edge, but fighting multiple opponents is par for the course for any Force user worth their salt.

Based on what? Also, if Zoltan's source checks out, your kind of ****ed here. Also, form mastery is only one aspect of what makes a good duelist. I'd point to Cade Skywalker who picks up a lightsaber with the training of a padawan, for the first time in 8 years, and has an even fight with a lightsaber master in the form of Darth Nihl, who has several decades of experience under his belt. Kenobi, even if he's not a Skywalker, is clearly prodigious, given the issues he gave Darth Maul and his close proximity to Qui-Gon, who is 60.

In technical skill. That might matter if we weren't discussing people with super-powered physical stats and precognition.

Kao does have better Force showings. I personally doubt they're outside of Kenobi's capabilities, because of his proximity to Qui-Gon, however we have no confirmation one way or the other that Kao is better. We just haven't seen Kenobi attempt the same feats.

That's ridiculous reasoning. You could reason that any decent named duelist could be "one of the most skilled swordsman ever", if that merely makes them more skilled than 90% of Jedi duelists. However, 90% of Jedi duelists aren't even worth mentioning. The difference is, Qui-Gon was actually given the accolade, Kao wasn't. So while you, as a fan, can estimate Kao is one of the best ever, I'm actually citing an omniscient source to confirm Qui-Gon is.

Yeah it is on my Jedi Knight RT on CV, Jedi Younglings have to master Form 1. Padawans have to master at least one of the other forms and are trained through the rest.

Also, as for Kao taking on two opponents: he was still shafted by Malgus afterwards. So Malgus > Kao > Vindican.

In the same way, Xanatos took on Kenobi and Qui-Gon at the same time about a decade prior to TPM. However, one-to-one, Jinn proved he was Xanatos' superior. So Kao's best accomplishment is, essentially, being better than Vindican, among his other accolades, which compared to Jinn's, are paltry.

Malgus beat an exhausted Koa. When Malgus was fresh he got taken out of the fight.

Malgus's victory there wasn't valid.

lol that was easy
ttyl, cut down on the straw mans next time

Originally posted by lazybones
Kenobi absolutely butchers him. The fact that Kao is being handed the win based on his performance against rookie Malgus and peasant Vindican is pathetic. Obi-Wan,pre-TPM, was capable of seriously pressing Qui-Gon in a sparring session, who as others have noted, has actually been stated as one of the most skilled Jedi in history. Qui-Gon was considerably superior to the likes of Anoon Bondara, who has been more than once stated as one of the best fighters in the Order in the combative Prime of the Jedi, and a fighter with few equals in the height of Jedi prowess and talent. Looking through Kao's respect thread, I see no such accolades on par with any of that, of even ones of comparable value. And whilst his resilience against very difficult odds in Return marks him out as a skilled Jedi Master, I'm not seeing it being remotely sufficient to give him the win over one of the best and most talented combatants in history.

I thought KOTOR was stated to be the prime of the Jedi Order

Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
lol that was easy
ttyl, cut down on the straw mans next time You're being deliberately retarded now. Better TK showings =/= better lightsaber ability. Better TK showings =/= better TK, seeing as Kenobi has no established upper limit. Better TK showings =/= winning a fight.

Originally posted by ILS
You're being deliberately retarded now. Better TK showings =/= better lightsaber ability. Better TK showings =/= better TK, seeing as Kenobi has no established upper limit. Better TK showings =/= winning a fight.
I never said any of those things, bro. Here, I'll quote myself to make it easier for you. Let's hope you get it next time.



You clearly agree that Kao is more technically skilled and has better Force showings to his name, so he obviously wins. There's not much more to it than that.

Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
Source, tho?

The Jedi Path. Before you can become a padawan you must master Shii-Cho, before you can be knighted you must master another one or more styles. Zenwolf might have the quotes I can't be bothered to look for them.

Edit: nm, the fegit already said so.

Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
I never said any of those things, bro. Here, I'll quote myself to make it easier for you. Let's hope you get it next time.



You clearly agree that Kao is more technically skilled and has better Force showings to his name, so he obviously wins. There's not much more to it than that. He has better TK and technical skill. You could say the same about Qui-Gon Jinn, who Kenobi was pretty near equal to. Pretty near equal to Qui-Gon is not where I have Kao, ergo, Kenobi wins. It's not rocket science if you pay attention to what I'm saying. You haven't addressed any of my points.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
The Jedi Path. Before you can become a padawan you must master Shii-Cho, before you can be knighted you must master another one or more styles. Zenwolf might have the quotes I can't be bothered to look for them.
dw bout it


Originally posted by ILS
He has better TK and technical skill. You could say the same about Qui-Gon Jinn, who Kenobi was pretty near equal to. Pretty near equal to Qui-Gon is not where I have Kao, ergo, Kenobi wins. It's not rocket science if you pay attention to what I'm saying. You haven't addressed any of my points.
Seems pretty straight forward to me, bro. If you're more technically skilled and more powerful, as we both agree Kao is in comparison to Obi-Wan, you're destined to win the fight. It's not rocket science if you pay attention to what I'm saying.

We're not agreed he's more powerful, we're agreed he has better TK showings. As in, he was shown on screen throwing some moderately heavy ship parts, and we don't know if Obi-Wan can also do that. We do know that Kenobi shares close proximity to someone considerably better than Kao - Qui-Gon - hence why I think in a fight, Kenobi would win. If anyone is strawmanning, it's you.

Originally posted by ILS
We're not agreed he's more powerful, we're agreed he has better TK showings.

Originally posted by ILS
Kao does have better Force showings.
mmm

Originally posted by ILS
We do know that Kenobi shares close proximity to someone considerably better than Kao - Qui-Gon -
We do? Post the quote/scan.

Originally posted by ILS
hence why I think in a fight, Kenobi would win.
Cool, except you have no reason to believe that Jinn is ''considerably better'' than Kao (honestly lol'd @this). Both mastered multiple/all forms so they are close to one another in lightsaber skill. Jinn's Force feats are better, but then, to my knowledge, Kao's only live appearance is in the trailer (it would be more difficult for him to get feats like the ones Jinn has). So clearly this logic would work here:

Originally posted by ILS
we don't know if Obi-WanKao can also do that.

There's no huge difference between Jinn and Kao. If you think so because of a quote that Jinn has that Kao also qualifies for, you're out of your mind. This is prolly my last post on this subject btw.

Yeah, he has better TK showings. It doesn't strictly mean Kao is better as an overall Force wielder.

I can't find the quote, however, Jinn and Obi-Wan spar for an hour or so, both sweating heavily by the end, and it's stated while Obi-Wan isn't Jinn's equal yet, he did enough to "state his case" - this was many years before TPM. By the time of TPM Obi-Wan is faster than Jinn and has spent years improving since the spar. And I believe there are quotes from TPM saying Obi-Wan's not far behind him.

You never addressed my point about Kao not having equal accolades. Again, you as a fan can infer Kao is deserving of the same accolade, but the fact is, he doesn't have it. It's rare that a character is given praise to the extent they're noted as "among the best in history" by an omniscient source, and Kao doesn't have it.

Good, I'm glad it's your last post: your autism is beginning to rub off on me. I've had to repeat myself like 6 times already.

Pre-TPM Kenobi was also said to be one of the best jedi in the Order.

Kenobi stomps. Maul would cream Malgus, Vindican and Kao all at once. Kenobi standing up to him puts him leagues above Kao.

Not sure why such a big deal is being made about Kao mastering most/all the lightsaber forms, as if that puts him on Jinn's level or even necessarily close. Even worthless serfs like Master Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell ("who?" - exactly) mastered most/all of the forms. Yet obviously, Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan would trash those clowns in lightsaber combat.

In this fight, Kao may indeed have the advantage in technical knowledge with a blade. However, this wouldn't be decisive at all. Because as has been mentioned, Obi-Wan fought Qui-Gon Jinn to exhaustion many years pre-TPM (Jedi Apprentice:The Threat Within), despite Qui-Gon Jinn having considerably greater technical knowledge with a saber. For (pre-)TPM Kenobi, his technical knowledge doesn't seem all that big of a handicap at all. At just 13 years of age, Kenobi was capable of making Xanatos (said to have "mastery unsurpassed in his class" and was more than a decade older than Kenobi) lose his balance through his "ferocity" and "gracefulness". There are also plenty of examples of high potential characters defeating/matching opponents who have far more experience and knowledge of the lightsaber forms and techniques. Kenobi did it with Maul in TPM, albeit with a rage boost. I certainly don't see Kao pulling off the same thing, as he got overwhelmed by even Return Malgus eventually, who is a gnat to TPM Maul.


Originally posted by nfactor1995
I thought KOTOR was stated to be the prime of the Jedi Order According to the KOTORCG, yeah. But KotOR=/=SWTOR. There's 300 years of peace between them. And IMO, PT has a stronger competing claim, as it seems to have significantly better high tier duelists, so I'd put that over KotOR. GL also notes that PT is the Golden Age of Jedi as well, I believe.

Now, I suppose the average run of the mill Jedi in the KotOR era might be better, because they're literally fighting constant war, but the constant warfare would also logically have the effect of killing many potential high tier characters before they have the time to really grow. And a comparison of the best duelists in the KotOR and PT eras also comes out with only one winner.

Originally posted by lazybones


Now, I suppose the average run of the mill Jedi in the KotOR era might be better

I'd even say no to this here frankly, as there are quotes I believe in Y: DR(?) where it says the Jedi Order is the most powerful it's ever been and that the Jedi had improved themselves or was in the ROTS novel? Might have been both.

But for Jedi, just being in a war doesn't really mean that later incarnations are any less capable. Especially since they have been training to fight the Sith again in the exact same scenario as they did before...believe that was the ROTS novel.

KotOR being the prime of the Jedi was retconned. PT era has been stated to be the prime of the Jedi many times

KotOR was stated to be the prime after the TPM commentary, unless a new statement has come out?

A new statement has come out, yes.

IIRC, Kotor was never stated to be the prime in the context of how individually powerful force users were.

The only quote in the actual context of "power" was in relation to how much power the institution of the Jedi Order exerted as it was more actively involved in galactic conflicts.

The other quote only applied to eras that predated Kotor.

KotOR referred to the Jedi being in their prime with respect to the number of skilled warriors running around. Lucas' word on the PT being the prime of the Jedi (and I believe there are other quotes) make it clear they're referring to the PT era constituting the peak of Jedi skill.

Originally posted by SunRazer
KotOR referred to the Jedi being in their prime with respect to the number of skilled warriors running around. Lucas' word on the PT being the prime of the Jedi (and I believe there are other quotes) make it clear they're referring to the PT era constituting the peak of Jedi skill.

Seems like I was mistaken on Kenobi. Didn't hear most of this hype before.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Pre-TPM Kenobi was also said to be one of the best jedi in the Order.
Where?

Originally posted by SunRazer
KotOR referred to the Jedi being in their prime with respect to the number of skilled warriors running around. Lucas' word on the PT being the prime of the Jedi (and I believe there are other quotes) make it clear they're referring to the PT era constituting the peak of Jedi skill.

Frankly, I very much doubt Lucas was referring to specifically the PT era and not the Old Republic in its entirety, given his comparison was with the OT. It's consistent within the actual PT era that the Jedi are weakened due to the growing presence of the dark-side after all. Lucas putting the PT above past Jedi eras doesn't make sense in the context of Lucas' Canon and the content around the statement.

Not that I actual consider KotOR the prime of the Jedi, though.

Tbh I agree. I've never been a KOTOR guy, but that statement of Lucas's was clearly in comparison to the OT, where there's literally 1 padawan trying to further his studies on his own.

Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
Where?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11120/111205740/4932787-screen+shot+2015-11-25+at+11.09.52+am.png

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11120/111205740/4932787-screen+shot+2015-11-25+at+11.09.52+am.png
Thanks.

Kenobi wins

Darach

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
When your argument depends on cool fight choreography, it's time to take the L that is appropriately placed before the rest of your name.
I am sorry but Darach's moves look well planned and excecuted. Nothing he does is illogical.

Originally posted by lazybones
Kenobi absolutely butchers him. The fact that Kao is being handed the win based on his performance against rookie Malgus and peasant Vindican is pathetic. Obi-Wan,pre-TPM, was capable of seriously pressing Qui-Gon in a sparring session, who as others have noted, has actually been stated as one of the most skilled Jedi in history. Qui-Gon was considerably superior to the likes of Anoon Bondara, who has been more than once stated as one of the best fighters in the Order in the combative Prime of the Jedi, and a fighter with few equals in the height of Jedi prowess and talent. Looking through Kao's respect thread, I see no such accolades on par with any of that, of even ones of comparable value. And whilst his resilience against very difficult odds in Return marks him out as a skilled Jedi Master, I'm not seeing it being remotely sufficient to give him the win over one of the best and most talented combatants in history.
Rookie Malgus?

A rookiee regarded as one of the greatest warriors of the Empire?

Peasant Vindican?

The guy tanked a missile as if it was nothing to him and went toe-to-toe with Darach until the latter acquired another blade and incorporated Trakata moves in his style.

And since when a sparring session an indication of real thing? Satele Shan had hundreds of sparring sessions with other Jedi before she encountered the Sith and she felt utterly outclassed.

Combative Prime? I recall two sources that cast doubt over this bullshit.

If accolades were highly deterministic in assessing a character's chances in all situations, Plo Koon wouldn't have lost to the Sith wannabe in Savage Opress, Kit Fisto wouldn't have lost to Assajj Ventress and Cin Drallig wouldn't have dropped like a fly in his fight against Anakin Skywalker.

One of the best can imply 500 out of 10,000 and 1 out of 10,000. It is a vague assertion.