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I'm having a debate with somebody that's arguing that The Ones (the Son specifically) can't resist Darth Nihilus' drain, which I believe to be absolutely retarded. Anybody wanna give me any more evidence to throw at him besides the common sense stuff?

No.
He's just dumb.
Even if his drain would effect them, he wouldn't be able to kill them lol.

That's what I said, lol. He's worse with his Nihilus wank than I am with Revan.

Is it stated anywhere that Force powers don't affect The Ones?

Please keep in mind that even Abeloth was vulnerable to Force Drain powers.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Is it stated anywhere that Force powers don't affect The Ones?

Please keep in mind that even Abeloth was vulnerable to Force Drain powers. Abeloth's Avatar was effected by drain sure, but she and The Ones can only be killed by the dagger.

It'd effect them, yeh, but they'd have the durability and force pool to literally crush him out of existence before he's even close to bringing them down.

That would make sense.

Originally posted by Selenial
It'd effect them, yeh, but they'd have the durability and force pool to literally crush him out of existence before he's even close to bringing them down. Not sure if it would really effect the Ones at full power.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Abeloth's Avatar was effected by drain sure, but she and The Ones can only be killed by the dagger.
That was her main avatar and confrontation took place in her own turf.

Anyways, Force Drain was a game-changer in that confrontation. Yes, Luke Skywalker was in the picture but Darth Krayt is no champion of Force Drain either.

So yes, danger is real. Most powerful expressions of Force Drain from Darth Nihilus and Valkorion will threaten and subjugate any being and it won't take long.

However, we can expect beings like The Ones and Abeloth having raw power to fight back effectively before they go down unless distracted. However, a Jedi or Sith won't.

Originally posted by Selenial
It'd effect them, yeh, but they'd have the durability and force pool to literally crush him out of existence before he's even close to bringing them down.
Sounds reasonable.

They may or may not be immune, but they can certainly resist it. Nihilus isn't going to instakill them or anything along those lines. KotOR II establishes that there are limits to Nihilus' power. He cannot consume anything that lives, and it's fair to say that the Ones are so far beyond Nihilus that his Drain is unlikely to affect them much. At least, not before they pulverize him.

Er what? He is constantly draining the likes of Tobin with mere exposure to him.

Sorry, my wording made it ambiguous. I don't mean he can't drain any living being, I mean that he doesn't have the power to simply "consume anything that lives". In other words, there are limitations to his Drain.

Originally posted by SunRazer
They may or may not be immune, but they can certainly resist it. Nihilus isn't going to instakill them or anything along those lines. KotOR II establishes that there are limits to Nihilus' power. He cannot consume anything that lives, and it's fair to say that the Ones are so far beyond Nihilus that his Drain is unlikely to affect them much. At least, not before they pulverize him.

Pretty much.

They squish him like a mosquito.

]

Well the ability has been shown to be an instant kill ability going along with the flavor of KOTOR 2.

]

I assume this is in regard to your erroneous view in your "Force Misconceptions - Force Drain (KotOR II)" article in which you argued Nihilus hadn't yet achieved that level yet.

The most obvious error you make there is that she makes that statement after her last contact with Nihilus being pre-Katarr. She states:



Even this is from her pre-Katarr last meeting with him:



I'm not sure why you're using her dated experience to gauge his post-Katarr level in which he has drained a planet full of Force Sensitives and most of the 100 surviving Jedi (who can be assumed to be the most powerful since they have survived the longest). Why you doo dat bro?

]

Well that's stuffing the turkey with a lot of assumptions. First of all Nihilus isn't like other creatures. His aura has Force Sundering properties (i.e. he projects a Wound aura over an area of at least 1,200 meters in all directions). If we assume the ones draw their power continually, directly from the Force, they are going to be in a dead spot almost two miles wide. All they will have is what they came in with. They're already being debuffed in a sense, so I don't see why his unique drain is going to be nullified by them. It is an ability that feeds on life/force energy in a way no other ability does. It is defined as having no defense against it (and this concept is backed by Disney/Lucasfilm licensed material).

*shrug*

It's valid because Kreia's discussions on Nihilus refer not to when she last met him, but on his current self.

What future material establishes it as having no defense? To my knowledge, it is just Kreia's claim. Then again, the actual power doesn't really feature in the SW mythos again.

Also, assuming those Jedi to be the strongest because they survived the longest is blatantly erroneous. You'd expect someone to send the greatest warriors into battle, not the weakest, so the casualties would likely be some of the foremost warriors of the Order. Not saying that some of the strongest Jedi also survived (ie. the remnant of the Jedi Council), but it's not fair to say that they're the most powerful simply because they survived till the end.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's valid because Kreia's discussions on Nihilus refer not to when she last met him, but on his current self.

Based on what? As stated in The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, they all went their separate ways after her exile:



You argued in your write-up that Nihilus assuming Kreia was dead was a legitimate argument (though wrong) and that Sion had to tell him about her death. If your argument were to be regarded as true, then they had zero contact even to the point that Nihilus doesn't even know she's still alive. Yet you want to argue Kreia was able to be in his presence and gauge him? All the hyping of Nihilus throughout the game until their battle, wasn't even supposed to be an accurate estimation of his power. As you no doubt have access to the dialog.tlk file, you'll see this:



The writer's intent was that even with all the "dust motes in a storm" and "as a body orbiting malachor" and "power cannot be put into words" etc. accolades, when the player comes upon Nihilus they had the idea to show the player that he was more powerful than that. Writer's intent shows Kreia was low balling him. Even her requirements as in "consumes all life" are met as Visas states he has this effect already post-Katarr.



The Disney/Lucasfilms licensed "Star Wars: Galaxy of Heroes" spotlights Nihilus and describes his power under the "Annihilate" skill:




This is the coded interpretation of his drain and it has these four aspects:

1.) "Instantly defeat target enemy."
-This is not a channel skill, a DOT, or anything of the sort. It is defined as instant death which is really all we see of the KOTOR 2 version of the skill.

2.) "Nihilus gains Max Health equal to the target's Max Health."
-This is a KOTOR 2 flavored concept, in that Nihilus consumes both Life and Force Essence (as well as the essence of the being itself before it can become one with the Cosmic Force) and grows in power adding it to himself.

3.) "The Target cannot be Revived"
-This is a KOTOR 2 concept. As the people themselves are consumed (their essence), their bodies leave behind a mass that is an "absence in the force" as shown with Kreia's usage of the ability. With the person consumed, and no way of the Force being able to bring them back, they are beyond revival.

4.) "This ability can't be evaded."
-This is written according to the KOTOR 2 flavor, most obviously towards Kreia's statements on it being without defense.

As far as that's concerned, that's how Disney/Lucasfilm wanted it to be written, and it matches the KOTOR 2 statements about it.

Send? Even during the Mandalorian Wars, the Council was against it. Those who did not rebel and go after Revan stayed behind, and you can't honestly want to argue that the most sound and powerful Jedi dropped the order and ran off after Revan can you? I doubt it personally but I'm open to a good alternate view.

Post Malachor V, during the Jedi Civil War, many Jedi were killed but we don't have too much detail about who all and what all went, and who survived, etc.

We see a lot of heavy hitters still remaining after the Jedi Civil War so there's reason to believe there were others.



My assertion in its secondary nature is that of those who survived the Jedi Civil War, the weakest Jedi would reasonably be the first to die.

He gets one-shotted before he can think of Draining them.

1. I didn't say Kreia was in his presence. I don't know how she knows - either its through her Senses in some form or it's simply Avellone speaking through her as he does throughout the game.

Fair enough on Nihilus being more powerful than the Exile suspected, but power is not quite the same as mastery, which we are discussing.

2. It's admirable that you're trying to connect game mechanics with the lore, but it's been stated that game mechanics aren't canon unless they're actual story elements, which none of these are.

3. I'm not talking about the Mandalorian Wars; I'm talking about the Jedi Civil War. Your interpretation is in fact supported by TCSWE, which claims that Katarr was a congregation of the most powerful Jedi. However, TCSWE has been wrong about KotOR II before and this appears to be one of its moments (given that the likes of Vrook, Kavar etc. didn't go, and they're known to be some of the most powerful Jedi of their time).

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. I didn't say Kreia was in his presence. I don't know how she knows - either its through her Senses in some form or it's simply Avellone speaking through her as he does throughout the game.

That's interesting. You think she knows, but you don't know how, and you're willing to put forth theories with no immediate evidence. I seriously don't mean that to sound mocking or insulting, that's just how I'm perceiving it on a no BS level.

But really, there's zero evidence that she kept up with Nihilus outside of your idea that she "simply knows". Not even the one Force Bonded to him knows where he's at unless he calls her, and yet you are inferring Kreia either does, or is able to sense him even when Visas can't (again, a person Force Bonded to him)?



It actually goes to the idea that Kreia informs you of Nihilus' power level that she is aware of, and yet the Exile finds it is so much greater than that.

Meetra's Realization of his true Power level > Kreia's assumption of it

Being that I stated she hasn't been around him for a while and has his power level low-balled, this is evidence of the fact that she is wrong about what she knows of him. He's grown since her exile, and this is proof of that (aside from the Katarr proof of growth).



You're getting the purpose mixed up. I'm aware game Mechanics are written according to game flow which is why I didn't add in the 8 turn cooldown. I'm pointing to writer's intent which establishes interpretation of power. The writers of that ability didn't just pull those four aspects out of their backsides, no rather, they interpreted Nihilus' lore in KOTOR 2 and expressed that in this game, in this ability.

For the longest people have debated "is it avoidable", "is it instant death", and here comes an officially licensed interpretation of his ability and it matches what is expressed in game by Kreia and other things. I'm unsure as to why you're going to look the official interpretation of his ability as it is translated to that game, and totally bypass it as a good source of understanding on the subject.



I'm aware that it has its moments and issues, especially when in one bio it gives three different ways the "historians" recorded the defeat of Nihilus. The specifics of a few Jedi not being there doesn't exclude the generalized statement from being true though.

1. I don't think she knows - I know she knows, based on things she speaks of that happen after or relate to events after Malachor. However, I can offer little by means of explanations as to how she knows them.

2. His power is much higher than you think it is, but that's not the same as mastery. Whether or not he's at the level where he can consume anything that lives remains to be seen.

3. The fact that they interpreted it in that manner doesn't render it canon, because, again, game mechanics that do not constitute story elements are simply not canon. That's simply paying homage to his Drain from KotOR II, nothing more. I don't consider it valid evidence.

And no, the technique in of itself is explicitly indicated by KotOR II to not be instant-death. It's just the measure of disparity between the caster and victim that causes such a drastic stompage, if you will.

Suppose they nerf something in a later patch and one of those happens to be affected. What will you think of it, then?

4. Fair enough.

@Miko Hacksaw

You have decent intellect and an interesting perspective of things. Your views are a departure from the typical comments that a reader expects to find in various threads these days. Your contribution is appreciated.

If you have time, I request you to explore the character of Valkorion. I would like to see your assessment of him at some point.

Leave him alone.

A perfectly intelligent young man... why ruin him by introducing him to Valkorion?

I have a weird feeling in mah gut that Miko is actually ZiggySh!tdust, though

@Myth - Would be a shame if he was.

Galaxy of Heroes is non-canon to both continuities, not valid evidence at all lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Myth - Would be a shame if he was.

Yes, yes it would.

The very existence of this thread triggers DMB.

@Miko The only thing you need to know about Valkorions is that he's a Sub-Plagueis fagg

Am I the only one who misses Ziggy? I guess it's because we are similar in a way: we both have the peculiar ability to piss off a lot of people with our opinions and arguments. I annoy the TOR brigade and he has a similar effect on PT people.

Ziggy was a racist fuggot who spammed the Battle Bar with his alt-right nonsense, so naw.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Galaxy of Heroes is non-canon to both continuities, not valid evidence at all lol.

Fun though! Recently got it.

Originally posted by Selenial
It'd effect them, yeh, but they'd have the durability and force pool to literally crush him out of existence before he's even close to bringing them down.

Originally posted by MythLord
A perfectly intelligent young man... why ruin him by introducing him to Valkorion?

I have a weird feeling in mah gut that Miko is actually ZiggySh!tdust, though

Nah, I got pulled over to KMC/Comic Vine cause people kept referencing it in some Facebook Star Wars groups. This is my name both here, and on Facebook if you wanna look me up.

Its been a looooooong time since I've been in this forum type setting. (with BB Code and stuff) so excuse the current newbified editing/formatting of my posts and responses.



Thanks S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. I don't think she knows - I know she knows, based on things she speaks of that happen after or relate to events after Malachor.

Such as (in regard to him)?



He seems to fit it given:



Of course, he escaped the finality of the pinnacle as recorded:



Nihilus only escaped that second part of her statement because he transferred his body into his armor and robes. And it can be stated that your requirement of "able to devour anything" per: "They can use it to consume other Force Sensitives - and at the highest pinnacle of power, use it to consume anything that lives. -Kreia" is met with this:



Everything (living) in the galaxy has become food to him.

Further:



Further:



Further:



Further:



Further:



I'm not sure why you believe he cannot consume any living thing, of all types, with these references especially a first hand witness to a planet draining event.



The skill is based off story elements. They reviewed the story, made a skill to match their interpretation. It doesn't match yours I understand, but that doesn't mean their official interpretation is incorrect. As we well know, official interpretation and perspective trumps the fan view.



That's incorrect, as it is never stated it is a damage (or effect) over time ability. There's no example of it normally "killing someone over an extended period of time of use".



I'm already used to the past few years of Nihilus trying to be nerfed because people think he's unfairly powerful. People who use him love him, and those who don't cry nerf through a symphony of tears. A change would only reflect player dissatisfaction, not the original intent of the ability.

Galaxy of Heroes is a non-canon mobile app developed by EA, again, there is nothing official about it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Galaxy of Heroes is a non-canon mobile app developed by EA, again, there is nothing official about it.

Its an officially licensed Disney/Lucasfilm product.

Which as non-canon is nothing official at all to continuity, yeah. It's completely unusable as proof.

Bump

Yes.

/thread

No.

Is your KOTOR 2 game case crusty?

They fodderize him, lol.

They aren't the Force itself, you know. They are just three Force Balance Watchers(but the Son and the Daughter tasted from two shenenigans of the Force, and one side dominated in them, only the Father remained 'balanced') . They are also part of the Architect species. Remember that even Son's Force lightning didn't turn Obi-Wan into pile of bones. The Ones are strong; but we don't know how strong they are.
We don't know if Force powers won't work on them.

Remember that Kreia said the Killer-Force works even on stronger opponents than you.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Abeloth's Avatar was effected by drain sure, but she and The Ones can only be killed by the dagger.

https://media.giphy.com/media/26CaMBrkziFrhQ3HW/giphy.gif

(The Father's death results in the Son losing his power, thereby allowing Anakin to kill him.)

Where's that from?

The dialogue going on during the gif you posted.

But why is it that his power prevents Anakin from being able to kill him with a lightsaber? Like obviously, he can block it and shield himself against its energies if he's actively focusing on defending against it, but if Anakin were to cheapshot him, what makes it so that the dagger is the only thing capable of ending his existence?

Considering he's a god of unprecedented proportion, his Lesser Force shield would likely suffice in deflecting lightsaber blows.

Perhaps. But then, doesn't that mean an energy source of sufficient power would be able to get past said shield indicating the Mortis dagger is NOT the only available means with which can end the life of one of the Ones?

This thing with Father dead=powerless Son is stupid as fvck. Once again: Why does it happen?!

The Son even tried to kill his 'father' once. I don't know why he'd lose his power; unless The Father created a Force bond with him and the Daughter via harnessing The Mortis' nexus.

Yeah, that whole "Father dies and takes the Son's power with him even though the Son tried to kill the Father" thing was written in by George Lucas.

And we actually do know how strong they are, or at least we have an idea. The Father said he can "Wield the Force like no other" basically just saying they are the most powerful force users out there. This puts him and Abeloth above the Bedlam Spirits, The World Razer, the Wutzek, the Entity, Sel Makor, The Darker, or any other force entity out there. He also says that the Son and Daughter (or even just the Son alone, which implies just the daughter alone) can tear the very fabric of the Universe. And they also seem to be able to manipulate time itself, the Son does so and shows Anakin the future. But the Bedlam Spirits can do this too. The Book of Sith also says that the Ones are powerful enough to tear the universe asunder.

So by gauging these powers, they seem to be unbelievably more powerful than all others that we've ever met. Abeloth is said to be a dozen times more powerful than Luke, but a feat such as destroying the entire universe would make her something like (and this is a complete guess) 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times more powerful. But I guess the amount of time it takes for that Universe to be torn asunder might effect the way things go. Maybe they simply cause chaos by creating violence, which leads to the fabric of space and time suffering consequences, and, over time, that degradation leads to destruction. In that case, the Ones are still incredibly powerful, unreachable by anyone save the Chosen One.

Are the Bedlam Spirits confirmed to use the Force?

I don't know, actually. It'd be weird for me if there was an entity within the star wars universe which gained such ridiculous levels of power without the force. But maybe they were going for something else, I don't know.

"Wield the Force like no other."-could imply a greater Force Mastery, not power.