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Darth Tenebrous
Represented by Azronger

http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11125/111259827/5489626-5055470422-53730.jpg

VS

Emperor Vitiate
Represented by Deronn Solo

http://pm1.narvii.com/5978/3965d320e035e16b8d3ff61dd69cc8282ed08a4b_hq.jpg

-Darth Tenebrous in his prime
-Emperor Vitiate as of The Old Republic: Revan

____________

Note: The debate started elsewhere already, but because people kept derailing that thread, I made an official one.

Vitiate opener:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=16092356#post16092356

Tenebrous counter:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=16092749#post16092749
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=16092750#post16092750

This one's gonna end up derailed too.

I can ask mods to remove the filler.

There won't be anything but filler.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
There won't be anything but filler.

up

az, given you see tenebrous as>vak, why not just make it valkorian?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
There won't be anything but filler.

Called it.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
az, given you see tenebrous as>vak, why not just make it valkorian?
No way.

I want to give Az an actual shot here.

lol, troll thread reported.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
No way.

I want to give Az an actual shot here.

dc prepping for his loss already.

https://media.giphy.com/media/4Bvpcq8rj4PmM/giphy.gif

i love u 2 shit heads, too. <3

Originally posted by Selenial
dc prepping for his loss already.

https://media.giphy.com/media/4Bvpcq8rj4PmM/giphy.gif
I guess if the debate never finishes, It technically won't be a loss?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I guess if the debate never finishes, It technically won't be a loss?
That why you're not responding to Skillz?

Originally posted by slayne
That why you're not responding to Skillz?
I'm working on it.

Unlike DC, I have a track record of countering arguements.

That I don't counter and finish my debate with skills according to your preferred timetable isn't my problem slayne

hmmIf only you had my ability to counter arguments, tho. mmm

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
hmmIf only you had my ability to counter arguments, tho. mmm


I've done it before, but as usual, you've never responded. But hey man, keep telling us about how good you were in your prime

Damn, my insult completely went over Kbro's head, lmao.

Now stahp derailing my thread.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Damn, my insult completely went over Kbro's head, lmao.

Now stahp derailing my thread.
Fck, I misread your post.

Your insult is noted, but those who don't counter arguments have no right to brag about their supposed ability to.

It's not your thread , It's AZ's

DC, Plz don't let this die.....Again >.>

Tenebrous can run really fast and his barriers can contain a cavern sized explosion. Does he even have any other feats? Other than shady power scaling, how can this really be debated?

Like... actually, seriously debated?

It's less about Tenebrous and more about the inferred puissance of the late-generation Sith Lords from Bane's lineage. The little we have seen from Tenebrous is pretty supportive of that generous estimation, but it really is just icing on the cake. I think most would probably agree that Darth Ramage, despite not having any live showings at all, was likely competitive with the highest class of Sith as well.

That said, even for those who wouldn't make that call on an unknown like Ramage, Tenebrous we know was the third strongest of the three dozen in the lineage. Given that the two above him are as exceptional as Plagueis and Sidious, and the weakest some orders of magnitude below him are still as solid as Bane and Zannah, it's hard for me to understand people who don't see him in a positive light tbh.

And so when debating him, we say "Bane could do this, this and this, so Tenebrous can, too"? And "Plagueis can do this and this so Tenebrous could maybe pull it off as well"? How do you counter arguments when he's never been in a combat scenario of, like, any sort?

With someone like Bane, we can logically deduce how he would react when facing certain attacks based off of the material we have on him. Tenebrous we can't, so how exactly do you debate with him?

Trocity, if Deronn doesn't respond then you can take his place as you seem quite eager.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
No way.

I want to give Az an actual shot here.

Oh? Well hop on over to CV, then. I've made the case that Tene > Valk and have been dominating so far. I'd like some decent opposition though.

Originally posted by Trocity
And so when debating him, we say "Bane could do this, this and this, so Tenebrous can, too"? And "Plagueis can do this and this so Tenebrous could maybe pull it off as well"? How do you counter arguments when he's never been in a combat scenario of, like, any sort?

With someone like Bane, we can logically deduce how he would react when facing certain attacks based off of the material we have on him. Tenebrous we can't, so how exactly do you debate with him? A case for Tenebrous is not difficult to make:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t639081.html

Doesn't answer his question about combat tendacy, nor effetiveness, lel.

We can get a good measure of his raw power, but everything else is assumptions at best.

Good thing that Shitiate doesn't have combat tendency nor effectiveness then

Good thing ur favorite teams are tanking

Well your team is shit since 2012 so stfu

Lonzo Ball is bringing us back to glory ya numpty cuckenstein

What do you think of Kyrie asking fro trade?

When's ur post up, Deronn? You said it was 3/6 done a few months ago.

Originally posted by Azronger
When's ur post up, Deronn? You said it was 3/6 done a few months ago.

If only there were some magical method of decreasing that fraction to make it easier to picture, a method of 'rounding' if you will mmm

Originally posted by Selenial
If only there were some magical method of decreasing that fraction to make it easier to picture, a method of 'rounding' if you will mmm

I was just quoting Deronn.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Good thing that Shitiate doesn't have combat tendency nor effectiveness then

> Bested one of the greatest fighters the galaxy have ever seen in one-on-one combat - who is also a master of predicting entire fights before th first throw is blown
> Isn't an effective combatant


Yeah my nig, it's best you stay retired.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
> Bested one of the greatest fighters the galaxy have ever seen in one-on-one combat - who is also a master of predicting entire fights before th first throw is blown
> Isn't an effective combatant


Yeah my nig, it's best you stay retired.

> Walks into a lightsaber
> Almost gets killed by a simple saber throw
> Gets put on his ass by someone far below him because he needed to concentrate

But by your logic Tene's beaten his master who is significantly above Bane as a combatant. You shouldn't have come back either.

Deronn takes another L

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
What do you think of Kyrie asking fro trade?

I'm happy about it.

Because that means Lebron to Lakers.

Do you think PG + LBJ in LAL could happen?

Cavs - from the top 2 to the lottery. lmao

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
> Walks into a lightsaber
> Almost gets killed by a simple saber throw
> Gets put on his ass by someone far below him because he needed to concentrate

But by your logic Tene's beaten his master who is significantly above Bane as a combatant. You shouldn't have come back either.


- His "defeat" was more or less prophesised, and he was hilariously weakened state, hardly as bad as you state it was.

- He had all of his attention focused on murdering Revan, a simple mental laps that a lost cost him dearly.

- Yeah, that because he thought he could dominate Revan metally, like he did before, unknowing of Revan ability to now no-sell his telepathy - plus, Revan pulled some momentary Oneness shit, were he released the Force in it's purest form. That, and like, Revan is commonly seen as a top 10 most powerful Jedi/Sith by nearly everyone so this showings isn't anyway near as horrible, as you, or Az, or anyone else, lets on.

- We have no clue how he accomplished such a task - so nah, it doesn't actually stick. Not that I said Tenebrous was ineffective combatively speaking or anything - only we didn't know how effective he wasn't nor his combative tendencies.



Originally posted by Azronger
Deronn takes another L

Please stop using the terms, it's absolutely cringe worthy when you do.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Do you think PG + LBJ in LAL could happen?

PG + LBJ + Westbrook in LA.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
- His "defeat" was more or less prophesised, and he was hilariously weakened state, hardly as bad as you state it was.

- He had all of his attention focused on murdering Revan, a simple mental laps that a lost cost him dearly.

-He still walked head first into a lightsaber, no prophecy or weakened state makes up for such a retarded action.

-Which just shows how inept he is, all his attention is on a foe lying on the ground instead of the other 2 very much combat ready enemy.

Just post the ****ing response already and stop crying about Vitiate's stupidity. You can defend him in the actual debate all you want.

Originally posted by Azronger
Just post the ****ing response already

nope.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
- His "defeat" was more or less prophesised, and he was hilariously weakened state, hardly as bad as you state it was.

- He had all of his attention focused on murdering Revan, a simple mental laps that a lost cost him dearly.

- Yeah, that because he thought he could dominate Revan metally, like he did before, unknowing of Revan ability to now no-sell his telepathy - plus, Revan pulled some momentary Oneness shit, were he released the Force in it's purest form. That, and like, Revan is commonly seen as a top 10 most powerful Jedi/Sith by nearly everyone so this showings isn't anyway near as horrible, as you, or Az, or anyone else, lets on.

- We have no clue how he accomplished such a task - so nah, it doesn't actually stick. Not that I said Tenebrous was ineffective combatively speaking or anything - only we didn't know how effective he wasn't nor his combative tendencies.





Please stop using the terms, it's absolutely cringe worthy when you do.
One of the few members who are an asset - a break from endless cycle of trolling in this section.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
nope.

Yes, because you know you'd lose

"He was destined to walk himself into a lightsaber!"

Stellar arguments from DC as always.

Just like Palatine, with all his supreme power and skill, couldn't stop himself from being thrown down a shaft by a weakened inferior, nor sense the conflict or doubt in his most reliable subordinate.

When your "destruction" is predetermined in Star Wars, you usually don't have a good track record, lel.

What a shit comparison. The difference is that Palpatine didn't see it coming whereas Vitiate walked into the blade of his own free will.

Yes, I know you have a habit of having Sidious cock in your mouth - but let me clarify this for someone of your mental deficiencies can comprehend - what I'm saying that both deaths were retarded, not which one is worse than the next.

Sidious for all intent in purposes should have saw it coming, and for someone that can one-shot an army of Vaders, escaping the grip of a single one should be easy af.

Point is, when your death is basically an act of the Force wanting balance, you don't die how you should.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
and for someone that can one-shot an army of Vaders, escaping the grip of a single one should be easy af.

Hit the nail on the head tbh.

Sidious doesn't even have a cock, mate. But I'll leave someone else to address your prophecy retardation. I'm not gonna waste time on it, unless you decide to include it in your unlikely response.

You didn't counter his actual point Az

valk didn't unbalance the force, sids did

Originally posted by nfactor1995
You didn't counter his actual point Az

Yes, because I don't care. Until he responds I won't entertain his arguments in this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSKRLZSzCXA

Well, The Venamis comparison with Ruusan era Sith and how he took on a Plaguies thar had parity with Tenebrous doesn't paint a great picture for Tene.

Plagueis wasn't on par with Tenebrous by that point AFAIK.

Possibly, but the difference shouldn't be so high that Plagueis is nothing to his master. Ofc I'm not saying this is 100% evidence Viti>Tene, just wanted to point it out.

I seriously wonder, how one wants to make a case for Tenebrous here.

Following the thoughts of Plagueis, the feats of the Ancient Sith were so unbelievable, that he chalked them up to myth and legend. Later he muses, that either the Ancients were much more powerful than the Dark Siders of his age, or that the Dark Side itself must have been stronger in general back in the day.

The point here is: Plagueis before the "balance shift" is significantly less powerful than even the "lowest" of the Ancient Sith. And the gap is so huge, that he deems their feats outright impossible ("exaggerations", "myths".

Azroger (aside from his rather stupid attempts to talk down Vitiate) follows the false assumption, that there is a straight line of knowledge transfer from Bane to Tenebrous / Plagueis / Sidious. We know that Darth Gravid destroyed a majority of the Sith Lore in 552 BBY. "Their Order might have already been decimated had it not been for the setback Darth Gravid dealt the Sith", as Darth Plagueis himself did put it. So essentially, the Sith needed to start all over at that point, when even Bane just had a fraction of the knowledge the Ancient Sith once possessed.

Furthermore, Azroger ignores the other possibility at hand: That the Dark Side, as Plagueis speculated, was indeed stronger back in the day of Bane and that the influence of the Jedi has diminished the Dark Side over the time-span of a thousand years. Thus leading to general weaker Sith Lords.

No matter what: Plagueis himself views himself as vastly inferior to the Ancient Sith, where he doesn't seem to consider himself that far below his master. So even entertaining the idea, that Tenebrous is (much) more powerful than Plagueis before he dies, he is nowhere near as powerful as Vitiate.

Goodness, what a load of conjecture and reaching assumptions.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Goodness, what a load of conjecture and reaching assumptions.

*yawn*

Did you, by accident, browse into your posting history again, kid? Shush!

*waves hand dismissively*

Yawn indeed. Should you be able to substantiate your claims with actual extracts from the book and it might be worth somebody's attention. But as it stands anybody who has actually read Darth Plagueis would know your claims to be sketchy and best, and at worst entirely invented.

LOL. Banite Sith grew more powerful in every generation. Denying 3 quotes saying that is funny.

Tbh, Nai, yeah, it would be better with quotes.
But a simple "no lol ur wrong" isn't countering his post.

Nothing to counter without proof, ursmelly.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yawn indeed. Should you be able to substantiate your claims with actual extracts from the book and it might be worth somebody's attention. But as it stands anybody who has actually read Darth Plagueis would know your claims to be sketchy and best, and at worst entirely invented.

Sure. Because I'm the individual here with a long lasting feud with reading comprehension, right? Unlike, you know, the guy that overlooked the quote present in my last posting. To repeat:

"Their Order might have already been decimated had it not been for the setback Darth Gravid dealt the Sith." - Darth Plagueis, Chapter 15: Quantum Being.

In addition:

"Crucial knowledge had been lost during the brief mastery of Darth Gravid " - Darth Plagueis, Chapter 5: Homecoming.

"Driven increasingly mad by his attempts to straddle the two realms, Gravid became convinced that the only way to safeguard the future of the Sith was to hid or destroy the lore that had been amassed through the generations - the texts, holocrons, and treatises - so that the Sith could fashion a new beginning for themselves that would guarantee success. he had attempted as much and was thought to have destroyed more than half the repository of artifacts" - Darth Plagueis, Chapter 25: The discreet charm of the meritocracy.

So the fact remains, that the Sith had lost more than half of their accumulated knowledge almost 500 years post Bane. That they got stronger from there is not disputed. But we don't have a constant progression from Bane to Tenebrous / Plagueis / Sidious, which is pretty obvious for "anybody who actually read Darth Plagueis":

"In the thousand years since his death, Bane had become deified; the powers attributed to him, legendary." - Darth Plagueis, Chapter 1: The Underworld.

It's pretty obvious, that Plagueis, characterizing Bane like that, was not even close to matching the powers attributed to the founder of the Sith Order, nor were the people that Plagueis knew (like Tenebrous). And much less were they above Bane in powers, whom they, apparently, considered to be godlike (read: "deified". And if they consider Bane's exploits "legendary", what, pray tell, would they call the exploits of the Ancient Sith?

And for Plaguies view on the Ancient Sith:

"But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras?" - Darth Plagueis, Chapter 5: Homecoming.

This is Plagueis musing about powers that the Ancient Sith have demonstrated, that none of the "new Sith" has even been close to replicate. Much more, the way Plagueis formulates his thoughts on the issue ("If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons", "Powerful adapts were said to have been able to ", makes it rather clear that he doubts some of the more extreme force feats attributed to the Ancient Sith. And if he doubts the truthfulness of those accounts, that would logically mean that he can't imagine those stories to be true - which means that the powers demonstrated by those Ancient Sith are far outside his own grasp.

One could, of course, also point to the fact, that Bane got a nice share of his knowledge by studying Darth Revan's holocron. So the same individual that was deified by the post-Bane Sith, got most of his knowledge from the guy whom Vitiate did casually destroy with his powers.

Or, you know, one could simply consider the fact, that Vitiate has the absorbed power of hundreds or thousands of Sith Lords, which makes the idea that an individual not "powered up" in a similar manner defeating him in direct confrontation when he is in "top shape" rather absurd. Which limits the list to possible challengers for Vitiate to some selected few, with Tenebrous clearly not among them.

Huh, Nai and Urs are back. Interesting.

A simple LOL no you're wrong? How about canonical quotes?
"As they gained knowledge of the Dark Side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation."
The Phantom Menace Scrapbook
"Ultimately, Bane's plan produced more powerful Sith Lords with every generation."
Force & Destiny
"For a thousand years we continued to follow Bane's Rule of Two, existing in the shadows, biding our time, growing our power, feeding our hatred."
Insider #88: Heritage of the Sith
"Bane's power has been passed down for a thousand years. I vow to be its last recipient."
Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

what a surprise

DC didnt respond

oh look it's nai. temp showed up again just a bit ago too. what if nai has secretly been temp's sock all along?

its honestly possible, temp is the kind of guy freak enough to trade clever rhetoric between his own socks to make himself look cool. clever tactic tbh

az be dstroyin

Originally posted by Nai

So the fact remains, that the Sith had lost more than half of their accumulated knowledge almost 500 years post Bane. That they got stronger from there is not disputed.

Yes, as Luceno said when asked about the event in question, Gravid was introduced to separate the modern Sith from the ancient teachings. It's true that Tenebrous and Plagueis were missing some of the knowledge and abilities that their forebears possessed--but they were not weaker.

After all, while the accumulation of artifacts and knowledge contributed to the improvement of the Sith Order, it was not the primary reason that each generation surpassed the last. The reason each generation was stronger than the last was because, by design, the apprentice had to defeat the master to earn the right to progress the lineage themselves.

While Darth Gravid may have been a heretic and damaging to the Sith cause, he was still the most powerful of the lineage up to that point. And in the end, he was bested by Darth Gean, who went on to continue the cycle by following the Rule of Two. Yes, the power progression between Bane and Sidious was absolutely linear, as numerous sources clearly state.

u guys r derailing mah thread.

get out, pls.

nai gets demolished

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
u guys r derailing mah thread.

get out, pls.

Until you respond, I am giving them permission to derail.

Originally posted by Azronger
Until you respond, I am giving them permission to derail.
Thank you sir

Originally posted by Azronger
Until you respond, I am giving them permission to derail.

I can't respond under such conditions, you asswipe.

You cannot respond under any condition. :/

Indeed.

Do I get the permission to rap?

Originally posted by MythLord
You cannot respond under any condition. :/

A basic ***** like you have no right to speak on Da King. Az either, for that matter.

In any regard, I promise to have a post up with today since it's my B-Day, unless someone pisses me of today and destroys my mood

Let's hope you live up to your promise.

And it is also the only opinion that matters here, because - if I may remind you - you're arguing in favor for Tenebrous who is long gone when Plagueis reaches the height of his power. D'uh.



There are so many wrong conclusions here, that it does almost hurt.
Plagueis didn't get more powerful through his experiments. What made him more powerful was the balance shift that he and Sidious invoked. That is the single event that he attributes all his newfound powers to. And given that, before that, he saw himself as weaker than all the Ancient Sith, it stands to reason that any of them could have replicated that feat, if they had tried.

And I seriously have to wonder, wether or not you're even capable of processing text, given the next paragraph of your posting.



Oh. My bad. I forgot the word "Lords" there as in "Ancient Sith Lords" with "Ancient", in my book, referring to the people up to and including Exar Kun.



Erm. While his thoughts start with "extending one's life", he then crosses over to their other feats, all seeming not repicateable for him.



Did you, by chance, miss the list of feats he comes up with. You know, like you also "missed" the persona of Vitiate completely, who obviously attained a lifespan of over a thousand years by his powers and who did use Sorcery / Alchemy to grant the same immortality to some of his servants (e.g. Lord Scourge). And you, seriously, want to lecture me on "cherry-picking"?



More than half of their knowledge was lost.



What does the fact that Gean successfully managed to stop Gravid have to do with her knowledge / power compared to him? Is Vader more powerful than Sidious, because he managed to throw him into the reactor shaft on the second Death Star in ROTJ with his bare hands? Would it have been harder for Gean's apprentice to overpower the master, who was now lacking an arm, a shoulder and the entire left side of her face and chest? Just wondering...



Oh my. I see. Despite doing nothing but talking about literature, you people still have not managed to aquire any skills in literature analysis or critical thinking. Okay. Time for another lesson:



Darth Gravid and his deeds weren't introduced to the SW universe before 2012 with the release of the Darth Plagueis novel. So, logically, a scrapbook released in 1999 couldn't take them into account...



That Bane's plan did ultimately do so, doesn't mean that it constantly did from start to finish. D'uh.



Same problem as above: A source from 2006 was clearly not able to factor in information that wasn't available until 2012 (the deeds of Darth Gravid).



Wow. Not even a mentioning of a constant increase in power among the Sith Lords of Bane's Order. And even more: This is a statement from a fallible character, describing his very own power.

Excuse me. Did you just shoot yourself in the knee? So, really, in order to present proof for the idea, that the Sith Lords of Bane's order became more powerful, you present a quote that says, that an apprentice doesn't need to be stronger than the master any longer to take over? That's really smart.



The statements above are operating under the assumption that there was a constant improvement from Bane to Sidious, with the Sith Order just gaining more knowledge. With the introduction of Gravis, we know that this assumption is false. In fact, it is so false, that Plagueis and his predecessors viewed Bane as a godlike entity with legendary powers. Which is, by the way, a point that you have failed to address entirely. Why would Sith like Plagueis or Tenebrous have that view on Bane, if they were by far more powerful than him (which is what your idea of the Bane Sith Order suggests, if there really was a constant improvement from Bane onwards).




And welcome to the realm of the outright denial of facts. You do realize that Plagueis did, sort of, kill Tenebrous, right? You do also realize that Plagueis defeated Venamis, who - despite what he may have thought - was clearly no match for him:

"Gradually the Bith understood that something had changed - that what up until then had been a fight to the death seemed suddenly like a training exercise." - Darth Plagueis, Chapter 6: The Hunter's Moon.

While Venamis might have been a worthy challenger for Plagueis in terms of lightsaber combat, he was absolutely no match for him when it came to the mastery of the Force, which Plagueis easily demonstrates in defeating him.



It is quite clear that you don't follow any kind of "logic". Thanks for admitting that.

My reasoning is quite straightforward: Plagueis perceived Bane as a legend in terms of power. Bane perceived the Ancient Sith as legends in terms of power and gained much of his knowledge from Revan, who was also looting what they left behind before. The point is: Those people did just have a fraction of the knowledge the Ancient Sith had.

Vitiate is an Ancient Sith, arguably the most powerful of them all. Which puts him ahead in the "knowledge" department compared to Revan, Bane and the Sith of Bane's Order. But, even more important than that, he is a force user that has lived for more than a thousand years. The guy has single-handedly conquered a planet when he was a teenager, than force drained the entire planet later, consuming the power of hundreds (or thousands) of Sith Lords in the process. He was capable of outright dominating the minds of rather powerful individuals such as Revan or Malak and likewise able to transfer his essence to other bodys at will. Not even mentioning the Alchemy / Sorcery proficiency which was enough to grant eternal live to his servants (and himself). How does Tenebrous even remotely compare to that?

Certainly not by tossing some random quotes onto the table, that just serve to prove that the Sith increased in power from Bane on, when you outright ignore the story of Darth Gravid introduced later. Which, just to put the final nail on that coffin, doesn't matter at all, because Bane doesn't seem to be that powerful, when it comes to power - especially not, when comparing him to Vitiate.

And your entire stance is outright contradicting itself: If you assume, that the Sith always got stronger, and the apprentice must be stronger than the master in order to kill him, that means that Plagueis must be more powerful than Tenebrous in the very moment he kills his master, which undermines the entire basis for your argument. What was that about "cherry picking" you mentioned earlier?

Originally posted by Nai
So, really, in order to present proof for the idea, that the Sith Lords of Bane's order became more powerful, you present a quote that says, that an apprentice doesn't need to be stronger than the master any longer to take over? That's really smart. :roll eyes:

Uh, no, please practice basic reading comprehension. The quote says that the apprentice no longer has to be stronger than the master now that Plagueis chose to abandon Bane's order.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
A basic ***** like you have no right to speak on Da King. Az either, for that matter.

I'm sure we'll remember that when we actually address anyone resembling a king.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
In any regard, I promise to have a post up with today since it's my B-Day, unless someone pisses me of today and destroys my mood

Aww... Happy Birthday, dear.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Uh, no, please practice basic reading comprehension. The quote says that the apprentice no longer has to be stronger than the master now that Plagueis chose to abandon Bane's order.
Nai keeps takin L's

To be fair, we KNOW for a fact that when a character loses body mass they lose potential and usable power.

It's actually pretty fun to see the Vitiate fanbase slaughtered on both CV and KMC.

After I finish demolishing Az, we can go one-on-one, regarding Valkorion vs Yoda, since you think Vitiate fanbase is prone to slaughtering.

We can do it on here, or on CV if you want.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
After I finish demolishing Az.

Boy better be a minor or he'll die of old age before that happens.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
After I finish demolishing Az

I have this feeling inside me telling me that won't happen. I could be wrong, though.

But you're not prone to slaughtering, DC. Not at all. I was talking about Nai and SithRevenant, who got dominated by Az here in KMC and in CV respectively.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Boy better be a minor or he'll die of old age before that happens.

Oh,pls.

I'm up to 12 pages on Google Docs as we speak, and I'm still typing.

kek

Bring it on, Deronn

Up to 20 pages now, holy shit.

This reply is large than I expected it to be.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Up to 20 pages now, holy shit.

This reply is large than I expected it to be.

When a girl says "we need to talk".

lmao

And who wants to bet he'll never post it?

#VoteforDC

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
#VoteforDC

Why

Originally posted by Azronger
Bring it on, Deronn you aren't intimidated by twenty+ pages? i would be tbh

I'd only lose determination since that's a hell-of-a-lot to counter. Az has a lot of free time, so he doesn't care.

The actual contents shouldn't be intimidating if I think they are what they are.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
you aren't intimidated by twenty+ pages? i would be tbh

Considering it's Deronn, no.

Azronger has waaaay too much time on his hands...

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
When a girl says "we need to talk".

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
#VoteforDC

My nigga.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
When a girl says "we need to talk".

Hopefully it's not those big What'sApp texts without paragraphs.

Post 2


Given Vitiate has superior showings, or can be scaled to have superior showings to what you posted for Tenebrous above, I'd have to disagree. I still have yet to see anything that proves Tenebrous is sporting more power raw power than an entire planet + 8,000 Sith Lords, either. I also find it a bit comical you're lowballing Vitiate combat feats when Tenebrous has zero to his name besides beating primitive mooks with spears and ****ing arrows.

Even Mando Revan (a far inferior version to the one Vitiate bested) was capable of plowing through entire armies, and he, and Malak was dominated so thoroughly by Vitiate, it might as well not have been a battle:


Tenebrous one, and only combat feat was replicated by someone that Vitiate dominated with a fraction of his Force power, go figure.

____


Back to the raw power/reserves argument again, so far, for Tenebrous, we have:

- Tenebrous being able to burst at best or shrink at worst a galaxy wide nexus under unspecified circumstances and a unlisted amount of time.

- Tenebrous, maybe being able to change the climate of a planet by being on it, despite the fact it was never stated Plagueis presence did in fact cause the climate change, nor does it explain why that doesn't happen when Plagueis visited 100's of other planets in the future.

Literally, none of this proves he has more reserves, or raw power than a nigh-god being whom essence consumed an Order's worth of Sith Lords and a freaking planet, on top of his intrinsic prodigal Force power. So yeah, Vitiate definitely takes this round, no debate.

Horrendous environmental awareness, as demonstrated when he crapped his pants at the sight of a lightsaber throw not even aimed at him, and if not for the morals of his adversary, would have died:
Irrelevant, lmao. Vitiate isn't fighting multiple opponents here - he's fighting one, and that is Tenebrous.


You're gonna have to show proof Tenebrous can even create Force Phantoms, let alone summon them in combat with enough efficiency for them to b relavant.


kek, Tenebrous getting mind stomped is a possibility, given his lack of sufficient telepathic resistance, or will power. To suggest his paltry usage of illusions will trick one of the most powerful minds in Star Wars when he has never even shown or implied to be highly adept at illusions, let alone shown he can use it in the midst of combat is laughable.



Lal, are you serious here? Nowhere does it state he had to cease his attack on Revan to defend against the flame thrower, or he can't use his Force power for dual purposes - only that the attack itself broke his focus on Revan, which is only logical, given T3 was an unknown combatant sporting an unknown array of weaponry that entered the fray while all of his attention was focused on continuously pumping the prodigal Knight with Sith Lightning.

This is a non-issue, honestly.


Lmao, glad to know Tenebrous' lightning is only Nyriss tier-, someone, Vitiate is infinitely more powerful than.


Nice fan fic, but nah. Given Vitiate emphatic inferior, Revan, was absorbing/redirecting lightning that ashed one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the galaxy instantly:

"Revan emerged from the cell. He had pulled the hood of his Jedi robe up to cover his head, and he word the red-and-gray mask, hiding his face. A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss's hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her enemies.

Instead of leaping back into the cell to avoid the deadly attack, Revan stepped forward to intercept it. Both hands were held in front of him, his arms fully extended at shoulder height, his thumbs touching and his fingers splayed wide.

He drew the bolts of lightning into his waiting grasp, channeling them away from their intended targets and absorbing their power. "I am Revan reborn," he said to Nyriss. "And before me you are nothing."

Nyriss's eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her. She tried to throw up another Force shield, but the bolts ripped it apart and continued on unabated. The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash."
-- Excerpt from Revan

I have a hard time not seeing Vitiate, no selling Tenebrous' inferior lightning barrage.


Don't know how the showings of a vastly weakened SWTOR Vitiate has any barring on this fight,

-

, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

Post 3


Literally, what? So, you've taken a single instance where Vitiate gets tagged, and suddenly he has terrible reflexes? Getting tagged in combat isn't a sign of, quote "terrible" reflexes. Especially when I can name other instances of characters getting tagged with their own Lightning - such as the living embodiment of the dark side itself - the Son:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/93477/5984121-1547140265-43901.gif



I guess an aspect of the Force itself has shit reflexes, too.

But, your horrible argument aside, we know that, Vitiate's prolonged FLS on Revan , T3's flame bath, Vitiate obliteration of T4, and Vitiate walking over to pick up Revan's lightsaber to deliver the killing blow happened in the span of a few seconds:


And we have Vitiate stopping Scrouge down-stroke, at the last instant.


Then, we have the fact that Vitiate was gonna defeat the strike team if Revan, Meetra, and Scrouge, despite the fact the trio was in close proximity to The Emperor, with their lightsabers drawn. That in-itself, is proof that Vitiate is/was fast enough to react, attack and defend against the CQC the three would have, logically, launched:











_________

Going by the above, plus the fact that Force speed, is, mostly depended on how much power the Force users is packing to fuel a certain augmentation, I fail to see the horrendous logic on Vitiate being slow, lal. So, in short, Vitiate in fact, does have the necessary speed to deflect lightning attacks - one instance of him getting tagged doesn't solidify the the outlandish notion that he is incapable of defending against them when he has shown the feats sufficent enough to say he has


Allegedly, looking like lightning flashing through the forest, doesn't actually mean they were moving as fast as lightning, only that how it would have seemed from perspective of someone afar. That's if I even decide to take Plagueis subjective opinion views on the matter at face value. Even if I granted you that privilege, it's not like, appearing like lightning while objects as illuminate as lightsabers to the meager eye of a presumed non-force sensitive who can comprehend at a meager 220 fps takes anywhere near lightning speed anyway.

Hint: it doesn't.

Vitiate can, and will, react to Tenebrous just fine, and win either through Force Lightning Storm, a telekinetic attack, esoteric Sorcery, or, quite possibly, simple mental dominate.

______


Scourge wasn't able to determine which one was likely to happen because he saw a million visions at freaking once, in a minuscule amount of time lal. Even if The Wrath saw the trio winning in 10 percent of his visions, which would be 100,000 it would still confuse the heck out of someone in the heat of the moment in weaving out which tale was more factual than the next, even then, Scrouge opting to betray Meetra and Revan proves that he was more than sure the trio would lose, he even said so in the very novel:


Emphasis on the 'would' rather than "could". Seems like Scourge made his mind up, and new only the Force delivered Champion would defeat Vitiate and not the trio. Which should be obvious anyway - Vitiate emphatically bested Revan and hos astromech droid, adding Meetra and Scrouge wouldn't have changed the outcome mch at all.

This issue is practically a non-factor.

Post 4

Now as for why Vitiate wins, it's very simple actually, read the following,

1. Telepathy

Vitiate, could, possibly finish this by dominating Tenebrous' mind.

Even as a child, before gaining a absolute substantial amount of power, knowledge, and skill in the Force, tehn absorbing a Order with a Sith and a planet, he utterly trashed Dramath's mind:


--Excerpt from Old Republic Encyclopedia

Dramath, while not floating in feats, was powerful enough to have and entire planet under his heels.

Later on, l, while using only a small fraction of his power, he was able to utterly dominate the minds of Revan and Malak:


--Excerpt from Old Republic Encyclopedia




---Excerpt from Revan

Mando Revan was already the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy, with Malak being pretty damn powerful himself, yet, it only took a minuscule amount of that power to utterly dominate and twist their minds to his cause.

Unlike Revan the second time around, Tenebrous doesn't know Vitiate's tactics or tricks of his telepathic fight that allowed the former to fight of the mental power of Tenebrae:


- Excerpt from Revan.

Unless you can prove Tenebrous sports the mental prowess to resist the power of being who casually mind-slaved prodigal Jedi and his powerful companion, or easily mind dominate a powerful Sith Lord who governed an entire planet as a neophyte - before becoming far more powerful an skilled, I don't see Tenebrous fairing well to.

2. Force Lightning Storm

Vitiate could simply ravage Tenebrous with a Force lightning storm - it's too wide spread to contain with a lightsaber, and Tenebrous' defenses, isn't sufficient enough to deflect it, as your Banite scaling for Brous' barrier isn't even better than Revan's someone whom Vitiate's lightning completely tore through.

The Force lightning storm doesn't take long to charge up at all, as Revan couldn't even close a not-so-big gap to interrupt Vitiate's attack, and instead, opted to combat the attack itself. Obviously to no avail:


-- Excerpt from Revan

In short, Tenebrous' Force defenses wouldn't be up to the task, and his lightsaber would be useless.

Sith Sorcery

Vitiate's application of Sith Sorcery is second to none in the Star Wars universe. Being so, he has more than a few tricks of his sleeve in the category of sorcery that could help work wonders in combat, such as, with a single sudden flash, he dispatched 12 of the most powerful Sith Lords, the Dark Council, at once:


-- Expert from Star Wars Old Republic encyclopedia.

4. Vitiate TK/Force defense

I've already proven that do to scaling, Vitiate will be able to deflect/absorb Tenebrous lightning attacks with moderate difficulty, bu Tenebrous' TK will not be an advantage. Revan, someone powerful enough to ragdoll entire strike teams composed of the most powerful warriors in the galaxy, and called down monstrous asteroids in the midst of combat and possibly collapse skyscrapers in the right condition - was only able to slightly push Imperial Guard. The reason? Because even when drawing on a portion of the Emperors power, he was able to resist the attack:



-Excerpt from Revan

If Revan couldn't muster any kind of worthwhile damage Force push on a Imperial Guard, Tenebrous, with his inferior TK, isn't doing much either. Keep in mind, this also speaks volumes for Vitiates offensive applications of telekinesis, too.

___

Secondly, Vitiate was able to take a blast of pure Force energy, where Revan balanced both the light and dark sides of the Force, without so much of an injury. Keep in mind - much of Vitiate power was focused on mind dominating Revan, and not on defending:







If an attack of that magnitude can only send Vitiate reeling with no other side-effects whatsoever, Tenebrous would be hard pressed to even damage Tenebrae in any worthwhile way.

___

So, in short, the venues for Vitiate winning is:

- He is most powerful, both in a combative and raw power sense

- Vitiate, at minimal, can cause problems for Tenebrous with is God-like telepathy

- Vitiate FLS will tear through any defense Tenebrous can muster, be it with a lightsaber, or a barrier

- Vitiate's Force defenses is sufficient to tank anything Tenebrous brings to the table

- Vitiate can win through some form of arcane sorcery, the same kind he used to one-shot the entire Dark Council body in one flash of light.

@Deronn solo
I know it's a Cav

but your use of this quote is taken out of context.

"Betraying his allies had not altered the inevitable outcome; the Emperor would have won regardless. At least this way Scourge was still alive to carry on their cause."

Revan was pretty much out of play at that point in time, when scourge was thinking about it in the present tense.
meaning Scourges visions don't apply, to this quote, as It was before Revan was hit by Vitiates force lightning storm.

Other than that, it's a pretty compelling argument. Maybe one or two things I could mention.

What? Scourge's visions about the outcome of the fight were taking place after Revan got hit by the lightning storm, and had gotten back up.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
@Deronn solo
I know it's a Cav

but your use of this quote is taken out of context.

"Betraying his allies had not altered the inevitable outcome; the Emperor would have won regardless. At least this way Scourge was still alive to carry on their cause."

Revan was pretty much out of play at that point in time, when scourge was thinking about it in the present tense.
meaning Scourges visions don't apply, to this quote, as It was before Revan was hit by Vitiates force lightning storm.

Other than that, it's a pretty compelling argument. Maybe one or two things I could mention.

This is completely inappropriate for a CaV. By its very nature it is a 1 v 1 debate, if someone uses a quote in a way you consider incorrect, that is irrelevant. It is only relevant if the debater is called on this misrepresentation by their opponent. In which case that becomes in and of itself a point of debate.

I would request that you and all other refrain from commenting upon the arguments being made by either debater.

(Mostly become this is incredibly entertaining and I want to see what happens, don't spoil it.)

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
What? Scourge's visions about the outcome of the fight were taking place after Revan got hit by the lightning storm, and had gotten back up.



Exactly. I think he got text confused or some shit.

Damn DC,

Az best have something good ready as a response

I'll take a look at it later. On a sidenote, your two last posts are both titled "post 4"

My fault.

I miscalculated the lenth when I wrote this down, and instead of just 4 post, I had to make 5. I never fixed it in my numbering though, hence two 4's.

Oh hey, he responded. Good for him. Tear it down, Az.

Lol what Bane needed a cocoon/force shield to block one single lightsaber strike? Lmfao Ben in an injured state can just block it with his hand, holy shit Bane is ****ing weak

Originally posted by MythLord
Oh hey, he responded. Good for him. Tear it down, Az.

I will. Gimme a week.

Good shit DC

By the way, how many posts should we have max? I'd say three per user is a fair number, or do you have alternate ideas? We could also leave the winner to a vote, although then socking becomes an issue. Perhaps we should assign unbiased judges?

As someone with a high opinion of both characters, I could probably be a reasonable judge. DMB would also be a pretty good choice, I think.

lotta respect for both characters, think this would be a good fight. Don't have much of a stake in the victory of either side.

Originally posted by carthage
Lol what Bane needed a cocoon/force shield to block one single lightsaber strike? Lmfao Ben in an injured state can just block it with his hand, holy shit Bane is ****ing weak
remember when ils and i posted that thign about bane being slower than captain america llol. drew is really dumb

I can be a judge

I mean, sure I sh!t on TOR and all but those days are in da past and I have Valkorion > Tenebrous anyways, and hate/love Az and DC equally. So... I qualify.

You've kind of shown more vitriol for DC lately honestly. I mean, I don't doubt your disgust for Azzie. But that's shared amongst everybody.

Yes to DMB and NG - absolutely not for Wollfmyth.

can i be judge

I think I could be judge as well tbh

An judge timing for me?

no ur having ur annual tor period rn 2 bias 4 me

I judge please, I read dc comics and sidious repsect threads

Originally posted by NewGuy01
no ur having ur annual tor period rn 2 bias 4 me

Shut up DBZ lowballer

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
You've kind of shown more vitriol for DC lately honestly. I mean, I don't doubt your disgust for Azzie. But that's shared amongst everybody.

But I love DC.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yes to DMB and NG - absolutely not for Wollfmyth.

You said nothing about MythLord. I'm a judge!