Darth Tyranus vs Karness Muur (Force only)

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



SunRazer
I've moved considerably in favour of Tyranus on this matchup, but I'm still curious to see what other people think of it.

If you think Tyranus wins, how would Maul do against Muur?

Fight takes place on a massive, open plateau.

Beniboybling
That depends on how powerful you think Legacy Krayt is...

SunRazer
Well, just post your own stance on the matter.

Azronger
If we take what Tyranus thought of the abilities of the ancient Sith as an indicator of his power, then I guess he wins.

SunRazer
What did Tyranus think of the Ancient Sith other than the fact that they were fascinating and he embraced their teachings?

Azronger
He thought of their spells as "lesser arts".

Ursumeles
Muur wins.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Azronger
He thought of their spells as "lesser arts". I don't think he did...

SunRazer
Not all of them. Just the ones he taught Ventress. We know that he withheld certain arts from Ventress, which could well entail certain other Ancient Sith powers.

I mean, if Dooku witnessed Muur use Essence Transfer or Dark Transfer, or even Drain, Lightning, Maelstrom, etc. he certainly wouldn't consider those "lesser arts".

MythLord
He thought re-animating the dead was a "lesser art", which admittedly is something Sorzus Syn, someone as powerful/more powerful than Muur, struggled with.

Anyways, Dooku takes it since I doubt he can't replicate stalemating a near-death, exhausted Krayt who's wasting most of his reserves fighting off Vong implants.

SunRazer
Originally posted by MythLord
He thought re-animating the dead was a "lesser art", which admittedly is something Sorzus Syn, someone as powerful/more powerful than Muur, struggled with.

What proof is there that Syn is more powerful than Muur? It's safe to call her a contemporary of his but I'm unsure of the source for people making these claims about Syn being more powerful than Muur and Dreypa.



Exhausted? He came to Had Abbadon fresh and with Muur performing some preliminary healing which we know was enough to make Krayt feel noticeably better.

As for using his energy to fight off Vong implants, it can just as easily be said that Muur was fighting with Celeste Morne for control over her body.

And stalemating Krayt? He seemed to be the one at the advantage, and we know he was more powerful than Krayt.

Beniboybling
Krayt doesn't say he feels better, he just says its working. But given its interrupted in seconds its very unlikely it had any notable effect at all. And Myth is referring to the fact that Krayt was dogpiled by Rakghouls before that.

Regardless, Muur > Krayt > Dooku is what I'm leaning.

SunRazer
You would think that he himself experienced a noticeable change in order to make the claim that it was working.

MythLord
Originally posted by SunRazer
What proof is there that Syn is more powerful than Muur? It's safe to call her a contemporary of his but I'm unsure of the source for people making these claims about Syn being more powerful than Muur and Dreypa.

In Book of the Sith Sorzus notes that she made a third amulet, one far more powerful than either Muur's or Dreypa's. It's reasonable to assume she became more powerful.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Exhausted? He came to Had Abbadon fresh and with Muur performing some preliminary healing which we know was enough to make Krayt feel noticeably better.

Yeah, Muur began the healing process but it was interrupted by Celeste. And Krayt felt it would work, not that he's suddenly noticeably better. Besides, a duel that lasted literally miliseconds left Krayt absolutely exhausted. Before facing Karness, he fought Rakghouls for several minutes off-panel.

His reserves would be near their limit and to further weaken them, Karness kept draining Krayt to amp himself.

Originally posted by SunRazer
As for using his energy to fight off Vong implants, it can just as easily be said that Muur was fighting with Celeste Morne for control over her body.

You can say it just as easily -- proving it's as massive a hinderence is much harder. Vong implants have made Force users as powerful as Jacen(albeit a teenage Jacen) become near-deaf to the Force and they eat away at Krayt's insides by the second.

Karness was already noted as overpowering Morne's will, so I doubt she'd be as much a hinderence as wasting the vast majority of your Force reserves on insects that are eating you from the inside-out and lowering your connection to the Force.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And stalemating Krayt? He seemed to be the one at the advantage, and we know he was more powerful than Krayt.

The two seemed at a stalemate. And it was stated Muur "outshown" both Cade and Krayt, IIRC, which can be attributed to Hett's poor condition. Insider notes that Krayt was the most powerful Dark Sider of the time, if I'm not mistaken, and that includes Muur.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Muur > Krayt > Dooku is what I'm leaning. thumb up

MythLord
Nah; Dooku's > Vong Krayt, prolly.

Beniboybling
Prolly not, and Muur is stronger besides.

MythLord
Barely, tbh.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by SunRazer
You would think that he himself experienced a noticeable change in order to make the claim that it was working. Noticeable, not necessarily notable. Krayt is no chump, he should be able to notice even minuscule developments in his own body. However a few seconds of healing is going to do very little to wash away a century of disease and decay imo.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by MythLord
Nah; Dooku's > Vong Krayt, prolly.
Not in the Force, imo.

SunRazer
@Myth -

1. That's what she claimed she'd do. There's certainly no documentation of it in Galactic History. Possible reasons are because she failed or she was killed before she could do it. Or because the Amulet ultimately proved inconsequential in the course of the galaxy... all of which invalidate her claim. Certainly nowhere near enough grounds to say that she's stronger than either of them, lol. Even if she did succeed in creating the Amulet, at best it'd make her a better Alchemist, not more powerful overall.

2. He said "it's working", which clearly means that he's being healed successfully. Milliseconds would not leave Krayt exhausted, don't be silly. There'd be other context to that.

Either that, or Muur's healing proved enough to revitalize him by just that much.

3. Muur and Morne were constantly trading control over the body throughout the fight, and Morne retakes control immediately after Muur hurls Krayt off the cliff. Muur was obviously the dominant one in the scenes where he's possessing her, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't fending off resistance from Morne simultaneously.

4. Not aware of that. The publisher summary admits that Krayt may no longer be the most powerful Sith in the galaxy, and Muur outshining Krayt's powers seems to be pretty conclusive to me. Slapping on circumstances that aren't indicated anywhere seems like a rather weak defense. I mean, we only saw a Lightning clash, but if we take Muur's comment about feeding off Krayt's powers at face value, he was probably winning the exchange. We can also assume that he was absorbing Maladi's Lightning at the same time, not just Krayt's, although we don't see Maladi on-panel again until the Maelstrom.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by MythLord
In Book of the Sith Sorzus notes that she made a third amulet, one far more powerful than either Muur's or Dreypa's. It's reasonable to assume she became more powerful.
IIRC, at the time she wrote her BoS part, she didn't even made the amulets; at leadt not her own.
Also, when did Syn thought that? If it was pre-Amulet, and poat-amulet was vastly more powerful, it could be that Sorzus wouldn't have problems with re-animating the death with the amulet.

AncientPower
Insider states outright that Muur > Krayt.

Beniboybling
I'm not seeing any evidence that Krayt was expending reserves holding back his implants. Also do you have a quote/source on Jacen being defeaned?

I'm not seeing where they stalemate tbh, Muur blocking and absorbing his lightning while mocking him isn't really stalemating.

However, there is a point to be made here. The Insider saying that Karness Muur "possessed powers that outshone them both" could be referring to the acts he performed, rather than his intrinsic ability. mmm

Don't take it up with AP though, she struggles with any level of critical thinking. sad

SunRazer
"Possessed powers" does not sound like a measure of his acts at all, but rather how powerful he actually is.

Beniboybling
Well the way I see it, it can be interpreted in either of two ways, that the powers he possessed outshone then both, or that through the powers he possessed he outshone them.

SunRazer
I don't think there's much room for interpretation. The powers that Muur possessed outshone the powers that Cade and Krayt possessed. That's it.

MythLord
Originally posted by SunRazer
That's what she claimed she'd do. There's certainly no documentation of it in Galactic History. Possible reasons are because she failed or she was killed before she could do it. Or because the Amulet ultimately proved inconsequential in the course of the galaxy... all of which invalidate her claim. Certainly nowhere near enough grounds to say that she's stronger than either of them, lol. Even if she did succeed in creating the Amulet, at best it'd make her a better Alchemist, not more powerful overall.

She had a hell of a lot of time before she died to make the amulet, though, so I doubt she wouldn't. Honestly, Dreypa's amulet wasn't really consequential in the course of the galaxy and his amulet was as powerful as Muur's. If we're judging power by who had more influence on the galaxy, then Vader should be > Yoda, but that's not really the case.

Syn notes her amulet will be "far stronger" than Muur's or Dreypa's, which implies to me she's aiming to be more powerful than either.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. He said "it's working", which clearly means that he's being healed successfully. Milliseconds would not leave Krayt exhausted, don't be silly. There'd be other context to that.

Either that, or Muur's healing proved enough to revitalize him by just that much.

Right, but the effect it'd have would be insignificant. Oh and yes Krayt has, actually. I timed his duel with the Imperial Knights, which he noted left his "body failing", and it was shorter than the amount of time it took two Imperial Knights to slice through two droids:

http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5689821-timespan+1.jpg

So either those Force sensitives are incredibly slow and challenged by random droids, or Krayt's fight with the Imperial Guards lasted a fraction of a second. Given at what speed Force users operate, the latter is more likely.

He's fought rakghouls for several minutes before engaging Muur again.

Originally posted by SunRazer
3. Muur and Morne were constantly trading control over the body throughout the fight, and Morne retakes control immediately after Muur hurls Krayt off the cliff. Muur was obviously the dominant one in the scenes where he's possessing her, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't fending off resistance from Morne simultaneously.

And like I said, I doubt someone like Morne would be a really big deal for Karness to surpress given he manages to overwhelm her will within a few seconds whereas she has to fight for a noticeably longer period of time before overcoming Karness. Both Muur and even Celeste admit that she's losing her control over him:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-J4OultAwLDY/WKr7qVYhkRI/AAAAAAAACRY/Rm8cdogF9GkZtHw8Kcp5iaN0Tq3WRfOcwCL0B/h558/2017-02-20.png

In any case, it's far less a hinderence than most of your Force reserves getting wasted and the few you have remaining getting rapidly

Originally posted by SunRazer
4. Not aware of that. The publisher summary admits that Krayt may no longer be the most powerful Sith in the galaxy, and Muur outshining Krayt's powers seems to be pretty conclusive to me. Slapping on circumstances that aren't indicated anywhere seems like a rather weak defense. I mean, we only saw a Lightning clash, but if we take Muur's comment about feeding off Krayt's powers at face value, he was probably winning the exchange. We can also assume that he was absorbing Maladi's Lightning at the same time, not just Krayt's, although we don't see Maladi on-panel again until the Maelstrom.

There are obviously circumstances there, lmao. Denying they had a massive impact is ridiculous and something I'd expect from AP, but not you. And Draining someone doesn't really mean you're better/winning the exchange, 'cause then that makes Krayt > Luke. smile

Also, Maladi actually left the fight. Before Muur and Krayt started exchanging lightning, Maladi and Krayt bombarded Celeste with it then we cut away and cut back to just see Krayt engaging Morne on his own in blade-to-blade combat:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-b_Bv45XBZwg/WKr7WozRo8I/AAAAAAAACRU/LMHhKJyMjQMGMsV9qMd0XfDLdN2sjItmwCL0B/h1101/2017-02-20.png

Beniboybling
Originally posted by SunRazer
I don't think there's much room for interpretation. The powers that Muur possessed outshone the powers that Cade and Krayt possessed. That's it. No it's not, you've added contexts. I can do that to. For example: the powers that Muur possessed outshone the powers that Cade and Krayt displayed. Or to put it more plainly, he outdid them.

SunRazer
@Myth - Only have time for quick replies.

1. Her aims aren't what really happened. So we're back to her being a contemporary of Muur's, not a superior.

2. I'm not sure if we can take time like that literally. It seems pretty absurd that milliseconds would leave someone like Krayt in such a desperate state. You're forgetting that Krayt at this time was still far more powerful than anybody else in the Sith Order, and he surely engaged Cade for longer than a few milliseconds. He certainly wasn't exhausted after that.

3. The fact that she's losing control doesn't change my point. She isn't going to stand there and let Muur take over her freely. She's fighting back, and he's having to contend with that.

4. The circumstances are being disproportionately blown out in favor of Krayt, and Krayt's Draining of Luke wasn't anything remotely comparable to Muur vs Krayt.

5. The frame of Celeste vs Krayt was so small that we can't tell where Maladi is. We do know that Maladi is facing Muur when she gets blasted away. She was fighting against Muur as well, or at least joined by the time the second Force exchange happened.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Beniboybling
No it's not, you've added contexts. I can do that to. For example: the powers that Muur possessed outshone the powers that Cade and Krayt displayed. Or to put it more plainly, he outdid them.

I didn't add any contexts at all. Heck, you're the one adding contexts. The quote makes no reference to displayed powers, only possessed powers. It's natural to assume that it'd be referring to that in the case of all three. There's no reason to assume that it'd refer to possessed powers for Muur but suddenly displayed powers for Cade and Krayt, given that there's not even the slightest mention of displayed powers anywhere.

Per Occam's Razor, we should go with the path of least assumption, which means assuming that "possessed powers" applies to all of them uniformly.

MythLord
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm not seeing any evidence that Krayt was expending reserves holding back his implants. Also do you have a quote/source on Jacen being defeaned?

Mara, someone infected with a similar disease, was:

"While escorting a diplomat to Monor II, Mara became infected with deadly coomb spores planted by the Yuuzhan Vong agent Nom Anor. Mara used her Jedi abilities to sustain herself, but the effort proved debilitating."

-- The New Essential Guide to Characters

"No medicine, no therapy, had come close to treating the rare disease, and only her own internal strength, her use of the Force, was somewhat keeping it in check."

-- Vector Prime

As for Jacen, I don't have the quotes on me. But you're free to check Dark Tide for it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm not seeing where they stalemate tbh, Muur blocking and absorbing his lightning while mocking him isn't really stalemating.

Sith are arrogant cucks; they taunt each other even when they're on the losing side. Even Cade does that. Plus, he only taunted Krayt while draining him of vital energies.

And Muur at one point seemed pretty angry at Krayt when they exchanged. Also, Karness only attempted to redirect/attack Krayt once he got stabbed by Azlyn which implies was incapable of doing so while Krayt was placing pressure on him.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by SunRazer
I didn't add any contexts at all. Heck, you're the one adding contexts. The quote makes no reference to displayed powers, only possessed powers. It's natural to assume that it'd be referring to that in the case of all three. There's no reason to assume that it'd refer to possessed powers for Muur but suddenly displayed powers for Cade and Krayt, given that there's not even the slightest mention of displayed powers anywhere.

Per Occam's Razor, we should go with the path of least assumption, which means assuming that "possessed powers" applies to all of them uniformly. You did? You literally added words to the text that aren't there, that is contexts. erm

And yes I am adding contexts too, that what you do with open ended statements, which as I said, can be done in one of two ways.

Regardless your getting muddled, I'm not saying its referring to different things for each parties, but rather displayed powers for both. A display he pulled off through the powers he possessed. Hence the use of the term. It's quite simple a reading, it's merely a case of reading "that" as a conjunction, rather than a pronoun. i.e. he possessed powers outshone them both.

SunRazer
I didn't add any words. I'm using the wording of "possessed powers".

In any case, Muur > Krayt. You seem to agree with me on that. I'm not interested in furthering the discussion on semantics.

MythLord
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Her aims aren't what really happened. So we're back to her being a contemporary of Muur's, not a superior.

2. I'm not sure if we can take time like that literally. It seems pretty absurd that milliseconds would leave someone like Krayt in such a desperate state. You're forgetting that Krayt at this time was still far more powerful than anybody else in the Sith Order, and he surely engaged Cade for longer than a few milliseconds. He certainly wasn't exhausted after that.

3. The fact that she's losing control doesn't change my point. She isn't going to stand there and let Muur take over her freely. She's fighting back, and he's having to contend with that.

4. The circumstances are being disproportionately blown out in favor of Krayt, and Krayt's Draining of Luke wasn't anything remotely comparable to Muur vs Krayt.

5. The frame of Celeste vs Krayt was so small that we can't tell where Maladi is. We do know that Maladi is facing Muur when she gets blasted away. She was fighting against Muur as well, or at least joined by the time the second Force exchange happened.

1. We don't know if it happened or not. We just know that she wanted to make an extremely potent amulet and had both the resources and time to do so. For her not to do that, especially when the Dark Jedi eventually wiped each other out due to greed, seems unlikely to me.

2. Well Krayt's fight and the droid fight happened simltaneously and by the time the Imperial Knights were finished, they sensed their comrades fell to Krayt. So yeah, I see no reason not to take it literally other than your own opinion.

Krayt being the most powerful Sith in his order and still being so badly weakened from such a short duel on speaks to how much damage the Vong implants would do to lesser Sith. And yeah, he fought Cade for a longer period of time and Cade also openly mocks Krayt as to how badly these Vong implants are weakening him:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Gb0USbrgns4/WKr_iw4SLCI/AAAAAAAACRo/RS665VIKeQwe6b2rBMNEvSNzplYDWAIWQCL0B/h1575/2017-02-20.png

He even calls him "weak" compared to the other Sith and implies they'd turn on him and kill him. He's obviously the most powerful person in the galaxy, but as a combatant the Vong implants severely weaken him.

3. Fair enough. Now prove to me this weakens Karness as much as the Vong implants weaken Krayt. Since Krayt has to both fend them off and is still being eaten alive/deafened by their effects. Muur just has to split his attention.

4. Why isn't it comparable? Krayt and Luke were both facing Abeloth, with Krayt aiming to kill both, much like Muur and Hett when they fought. And also much like Muur, Krayt drained his opposition(Luke and Abeloth). The circumstances are fairly similar.

5. Small or not, I wonder why Maladi isn't blasting Celeste and letting her have a conversation with Krayt? She had a considerable period of time to do anything to help Krayt, yet didn't. Which means she was probably pre-occupied by the several Jedi surrounding her.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by MythLord
Mara, someone infected with a similar disease, was:

"While escorting a diplomat to Monor II, Mara became infected with deadly coomb spores planted by the Yuuzhan Vong agent Nom Anor. Mara used her Jedi abilities to sustain herself, but the effort proved debilitating."

-- The New Essential Guide to Characters

"No medicine, no therapy, had come close to treating the rare disease, and only her own internal strength, her use of the Force, was somewhat keeping it in check."

-- Vector PrimeFair, thanks for the sources. I supposed the fact that his ability to hold them off diminished over time proves he got weaker in the Force then.

Cool, will do.

Yes but if he has time to talk, he's evidently not strained. And absorbing your opponents lightning simply isn't stalemating, also, Celeste regained control half way through the fight, so you can't make those claims.

SunRazer

Beniboybling
Originally posted by SunRazer
I didn't add any words. I'm using the wording of "possessed powers".

In any case, Muur > Krayt. You seem to agree with me on that. I'm not interested in furthering the discussion on semantics. Doesn't matter if you copied it from the text kek, by adding those words you cemented your reading.

And I did based on this quote, but its become apparent to me the quote is open to multiple interpretations.

MythLord
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I supposed the fact that his ability to hold them off diminished over time proves he got weaker in the Force then.

And they got stronger as they kept eating him, yeah.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yes but if he has time to talk, he's evidently not strained. And absorbing your opponents lightning simply isn't stalemating, also, Celeste regained control half way through the fight, so you can't make those claims.

Krayt is also talking despite pouring his heart and soul into the lightning; doesn't really mean anything.

Also, I think you're confusing the two Tutaminis instances. In one case: Celeste has full control and is deflecting Maladi's/Krayt's lightning briefly. Next we cut away and then cut back to see Krayt and Celeste fighting with their sabers. Then Krayt attacks with lightning and Muur takes over.

MythLord
@Razer

1. According to BoS, she had more than a year or so. Was she so occupied writting her diary that she wouldn't do something that'd automatically place her above her peers, which is what she strived for?

2. Barely improved, yeah. The vast time he spent fighting would more than compensate. And you haven't really explained why my argument doesn't work; the proof is all there, you just won't accept it.

3. Yes, there is, lol. We can scale from Mara and Jacen and their respective experiences with similar illnesses and also his duels with the Imperial Knights/Cade which had him severely weakened after an exceptionally short amount of time. It's influencing Krayt in more ways than one that just having an annoying voice in your head really doesn't compare as a hinderence.

4. Abeloth was fighting both of them. It's not like Krayt just stood to the side and watched while eating a bit of soul popcorn, he directly fought with her and Luke and still Drained her despite Luke being cautious of him and Abby seeing him as an actual threat.

5. Still no proof she re-engaged; not when Shado, Cade, Azlyn and a few others were closing in to finish Krayt and she'd be trying to prevent them from doing that. I mean, it's possible, though doesn't change my argument very much.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by MythLord
Krayt is also talking despite pouring his heart and soul into the lightning; doesn't really mean anything.OK but its more that he's smiling while doing it. He's clearly not in a very uncomfortable position. Still you haven't explained how you can infer a stalemate from tutaniamis, or was Yoda stalemating Dooku too?

Not confusing anything, I was making the point that for much of the fight Muur couldn't attack because of Morne.

SunRazer
1. We don't know how long it takes to make the Talismans, so that doesn't prove anything.

2. The proof of your argument not working is in the fact that Krayt has fought for longer than milliseconds without becoming an absolute wreck, lol.

3. Muur isn't "just having a head in his voice". The constant effort of having to imprison Celeste within her own body would be of notable detriment to him. There's no precise definition of how much it weakened him, just like there's no precise definition of how much Krayt was weakened, only a general one. You can't make a precise comparison between the two.

4. Cautionsness doesn't mean shit, lol. Luke and Abeloth were almost completely preoccupied with each other.

5. Proof she re-engaged is in the fact that she's facing Muur when she gets blown away. And it might not affect your argument much, but it solidifies Muur's superiority over Krayt.

MythLord
1. She made Muur's Talisman within her first year of Exile. Afterwards, there's over a year or so before her journal ends and we know she outlived it

2. Did I say he'd become an absolute wreck? No, I said he was pretty noticeably exhausted and his body was "failing him" after a fraction of a second in combat. The fact that he can still keep going afterwards is just a testament to his Force reserves and how incredible they are. It doesn't, however, change the fact that his Vong implants greatly weakened him second-by-second.

3. Correct, you can't make any precise comparison, but somehow I think logically something like the Vong implants(especially when they were in effect for several minutes, and they just need seconds to greatly diminish Krayt's reserves) is going to be a substantially better hinderence than a contest of wills with someone who's noticeably/considerably weaker than you. Krayt is not only undergoing another contest of wills by keeping the implants in check, but his Force-sensitivity is being dulled and he's

4. Right, being wary of your enemy clearly means you're not focusing on him... Sorry, but no. And Abeloth was literally wrestling with Krayt when he drained her. She's obviously not preoccupied with just Luke and tried to incapacitated Krayt with a Force Blast to the face. And even after Luke realized that the Force Drain was effecting him, he still couldn't effectively stop it(or so it's implied).

5. So was Shado Vao, who was meters away from her. And despite Muur's "solidified superiority", I like how he waited for Azlyn to stab Krayt before unleashing his Maelstrom.

Also, with regards to Muur's accolade, I realize it can be viewed in a certain light: it says Karness' powers outshown both Krayt and Cade. The plural here obviously refers to his abilities in the Force, rather than his power in it. This is very true as Karness Muur has Dark Healing/Transfer and the ability to turn people into rakghouls. This is something that very much does "outshow" Krayt and Skywalker, but doesn't neccessarily mean he's the more powerful Force user with regards to raw power(or more practical applications like TK or lightning).

MythLord
Originally posted by Beniboybling
OK but its more that he's smiling while doing it. He's clearly not in a very uncomfortable position. Still you haven't explained how you can infer a stalemate from tutaniamis, or was Yoda stalemating Dooku too?

He seems to be smiling because he was draining Krayt, more than anything else.
Also:

"The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched."

-- Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

"The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powers, neither besting the other."

-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

"Count Dooku and Master Yoda engaging in a titanic struggle of Force powers on Geonosis."

-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Huehuehuehue. No, but seriously, at least Yoda "easily" redirected Dooku's lightning back at him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not confusing anything, I was making the point that for much of the fight Muur couldn't attack because of Morne.

Well I'm not referring to the entire fight. I'm referring to the lightning exchange between Krayt and Muur near the end of the fight where Karness only retaliated to Krayt's lightning assault and stopped defending after Krayt got stabbed.

Beniboybling
1. You didn't answer my question, how does this even begin suggest parity? And the point about him smiling is that he wouldn't be if he was seriously strained. And if Yoda actually showing strain is easily absorbing lightning, this definitely is.

Thanks for those though, I'll add them to my databank of when sourcebooks have been hyperbolic and wrong. smile

2. Yeah Krayt gets stabbed immediately after, before Krayt even stops attacking. That really means nothing.

MythLord
1. Meh, I was wrong. It doesn't show parity. And was Yoda showing strain? Seemed like an easy enough deflection to me.

2. Not immediately afterwards, tbh. They had a nice little chat while they were locked in the Tutaminis/lightning struggle before Azlyn stepped in.

On a side note: Karness still failed to kill Krayt after Krayt got stabbed, despite him unleashing his most powerful attack(that he's shown, anyways) while amped and then hurling him off a cliff. Krayt effectively shielded himself from a massive fall and Muur's attack despite being in an incredibly poor state.

Beniboybling
1. Gd. evil face And he looks a little strained to me, maybe not that much tho.

2. They do that a lot in Legacy tbh, I think Muur just likes to trash talk.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by MythLord
Also, with regards to Muur's accolade, I realize it can be viewed in a certain light: it says Karness' powers outshown both Krayt and Cade. The plural here obviously refers to his abilities in the Force, rather than his power in it. This is very true as Karness Muur has Dark Healing/Transfer and the ability to turn people into rakghouls. This is something that very much does "outshow" Krayt and Skywalker, but doesn't neccessarily mean he's the more powerful Force user with regards to raw power(or more practical applications like TK or lightning). This is also a good point, and all in all I agree. Karness' displays in that fight (summoning rakghoul armies, blasting Krayt and co. away) dominated the fight and outshone everyone else present, and the passage describes him within these contexts.

MythLord
1. He's old. Celeste is young and fresh(anatomically).

2. Yeah... it's actually great banter most of the time.

Out of curiosity, how big would you say the gap between Muur and Vong Krayt is? So far, I see them as being more-or-less equals given Krayt's performance in such an awful state. mmm

Prof. T.C McAbe
Dooku wins

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Muur wins.

AncientPower
Muur 10/10.

He's arguably Dooku's equal as a swordsman given that prime Krayt should be Kenobi tier if not higher. Especially when taking into account the fact that Muur was 5,000 years out of practice at the time too.

SunRazer
Originally posted by MythLord
1. She made Muur's Talisman within her first year of Exile. Afterwards, there's over a year or so before her journal ends and we know she outlived it

Well, she had yet to make Dreypa's one before her journal ended. And making a far more powerful talisman likely would have taken substantially longer.



It doesn't matter, lol. He was not "noticeably exhausted" in the first milliseconds of his fights with Cade or whoever else. He fought longer without showing any sort of exhaustion.



Morne being weaker than Muur in terms of Force power is completely irrelevant here. It's willpower that counts, and Morne's kept Muur sealed within her form for well over a century. So yes, it's a great contest between the two of them indeed. Remember that Celeste is almost always the dominant one in their willpower contest.



Luke couldn't stop Krayt because he was primarily diverting his strength towards Abeloth, and had already been injured at that point, IIRC. Not to mention that Krayt was hurting himself in the process, something that Muur evidently wasn't doing. So the comparison only goes so far.



It's entirely possible that Shado was looking to enter the fight moments before the Maelstrom. Maladi being turned away from Shado means that she was no longer fighting him.



Under that interpretation, Muur's Lightning would've been outshining Krayt's anyway. I mean, you can argue the semantics however much you want, but what the quote's trying to say is that Muur > Vong Krayt & Cade Skywalker.

MythLord
Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, she had yet to make Dreypa's one before her journal ended. And making a far more powerful talisman likely would have taken substantially longer.

And we know she succeeded in making that amulet for Dreypa:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-J4P9VtFSml4/WKyHBh7juqI/AAAAAAAACVE/nFpdHuqztPQL5_6P5ZScMXzjazOdrMtSwCL0B/h844/2017-02-21.png

Sorzus is currently two for two; I fail to see why she wouldn't/couldn't make an amulet for herself given she had over a year to do so and the resources neccessary.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It doesn't matter, lol. He was not "noticeably exhausted" in the first milliseconds of his fights with Cade or whoever else. He fought longer without showing any sort of exhaustion.

Right... Cade openly noting how "weak" and "sick" Krayt is while fighting him and sensing how much the Vong implants were costing Krayt clearly isn't showing any sign of exhaustion? Yeah, right.

The fact that it isn't outright shown doesn't mean that isn't the case, Nova. Much like how it's not always stated a nexus affects a person, but we know it does because that's how it functions. Your appeal to ignorance is noted, but worthless.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Morne being weaker than Muur in terms of Force power is completely irrelevant here. It's willpower that counts, and Morne's kept Muur sealed within her form for well over a century. So yes, it's a great contest between the two of them indeed. Remember that Celeste is almost always the dominant one in their willpower contest.

The fact that Morne was holding him back for over a century actually strengthens my argument as she'd now be on her ropes end after a 100 years of containing Karness(actually, she notes she controlled him for several millennia). She doesn't really have infinite mental fortitude and now Muur is starting to easily bypass and possess her while also "threatening to usurp her":

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-rCFiPIl1I60/WKyHrxxyp6I/AAAAAAAACVI/jyTa79_BApoNwVG-x4u4I7G62m8yCdmgACL0B/h130/2017-02-21.png

She's worn out and even in casual situations she loses control of him:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Qf4SeoRwVxY/WKyMCIRpVjI/AAAAAAAACVc/nscHx7cHvfkunhZmMu0kTcuMllC3GH7oQCL0B/h567/2017-02-21.png

Not to mention Muur's pretty confident of his victory over Morne, as well.
It still isn't as big a hinderence as the Vong implants. In fact, Muur has access to both his and Celeste's Force reserves.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Luke couldn't stop Krayt because he was primarily diverting his strength towards Abeloth, and had already been injured at that point, IIRC. Not to mention that Krayt was hurting himself in the process, something that Muur evidently wasn't doing. So the comparison only goes so far.

He wasn't injured yet at that point. Whether or not Krayt was being injured by Abeloth would be irrelevant since he still succeeded in sapping her and weakening her noticeably and growing because of it, something she wouldn't really allow.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's entirely possible that Shado was looking to enter the fight moments before the Maelstrom. Maladi being turned away from Shado means that she was no longer fighting him.

And there's still nothing to imply she actually helped Krayt after the two had a pause in combat. Even if she did help him, it was for literally a few seconds where he was siphoning Krayt's power.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Under that interpretation, Muur's Lightning would've been outshining Krayt's anyway. I mean, you can argue the semantics however much you want, but what the quote's trying to say is that Muur > Vong Krayt & Cade Skywalker.

It was outshining Krayt's... due to the sickly state Krayt was in at the time, though. The quote is obviously contextual and doesn't automatically mean Karness Muur's power > Krayt's power.

SunRazer
Originally posted by MythLord
And we know she succeeded in making that amulet for Dreypa:


Sorzus is currently two for two; I fail to see why she wouldn't/couldn't make an amulet for herself given she had over a year to do so and the resources neccessary.

She succeeded in making one for Dreypa after her journal entry. That in of itself would take time, and creating a far more powerful talisman would presumably take even more time, assuming it's even possible. Again, the fact that we have no confirmation of the Syn Talisman existing casts doubt over whether she managed to craft it in the first place.



That's a sign of fatigue, not exhaustion. And that didn't happen within milliseconds.

You clearly don't even know what an appeal to ignorance means; just avoid using terms you don't understand. My point is that Krayt was clearly fighting for longer than milliseconds without being drained to the extent that you suggested earlier. That could well be the product of Muur's Dark Transfer, which we know worked (we just don't know the extent of it). I also find it interesting that Muur doesn't comment on Krayt's waning power, yet Cade did. It doesn't mean Krayt wasn't tired, but it lends credence to my stance.



We've gone through this already. Her influence was declining but not absent altogether. Ergo, Muur was still contending with her for control over her body.

These rather piteous attempts at bringing down Muur's situation are amusing. Just accept the fact that he wasn't at his full power and move on.



As he was that he'd slain Sith far greater than Krayt.



I don't know why the Vong implants are such a big focus of your argument. We're only suggesting that Muur > Vong Krayt, not Reborn Krayt, lol. The implants are a part of Vong Krayt's character; you don't subtract from his power again, lol.

Besides, the Muur in this thread is more powerful than Legacy Muur on merit of the fact that he isn't contending with Celeste for control over her body.



She was weakened and contending with Luke at the same time, not to mention possessing various other bodies around the galaxy. But forget that; your comparison is just invalid. Muur Draining Krayt in a 1 on 1 as they were exchanging Lightning means that he had the upper hand. Krayt draining a distracted Luke and Abeloth who were primarily fighting each other, not him, doesn't mean he was beating them both. That's like comparing person X stabbing Y in a knife fight to person W stabbing U and Z in the back as the those two fight. They're not the same.



There is something to imply it: at the time that she got blasted away by the Maelstrom, she was facing Muur from the same angle that she had been facing Celeste earlier on, and she was around the same range.



Not sure if you're three pages behind the discussion or not, but we're talking about Vong Krayt. Krayt's sickly condition being a given since that's part of what makes him "Vong Krayt". I wasn't comparing raw power; I was comparing current, available power.

Dispray
Muur easily

MythLord
Dammit, I forgot about this. We can always finish it Nova... but then again, you're leaving soon so...

UCanShootMyNova
Muur thought it's very close.

Ursumeles
thumb up

Azronger
Tyranus

AncientPower
Isn't even beating Vong Krayt, nevermind prime Muur.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.