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The Team:
* Mace Windu
* Kit Fisto
* Qui-Gon Jinn
* R2D2


* Vitiate as of the Novel


Round one: Fight takes place on neutral ground
Round two: Fight takes place in the dark temple

NoVitiate dies. Weakitiate dies. SWTOR Vitiate might win. Valkorion wins.

R2 solos

Yeah, it's novel Vitiate. He gets his head lopped off every time.

Yeah, edited the version in.

Reasons tho?

Mace solos round 1. Vitiate probably wins round 2, though.

Fisto and Jinn are probably liabilities due to telepathy. R2 gets shattered just like T4.

All versions of Vitiate excluding his weakened variant can beat Windu imo. Especially with liabilities on the field.

Qui-Gon seems to be the type of guy with immense willpower. Not to mention Mind Tricking Hutts is pretty good.

Vitiate will smoke this Strike Team. Mace Windu alone cannot carry it to victory.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Qui-Gon seems to be the type of guy with immense willpower. Not to mention Mind Tricking Hutts is pretty good.
Same was true for Revan and many others.

We are talking about one of the greatest telepaths here and Qui-Gon Jinn will be tested like never before.

Except Revan resisted Vitiate's TP, lol. Vitiate couldn't even break the Act II strike team without incapacitating them first, and this team is better in every way.

Given enough time, could Vitiate subjugate the mind of Kit Fisto or even Qui-Gon? Quite possibly. But he isn't going to be afforded the luxury of uninterrupted channeling time. He'll be attacked constantly.

Lol @ comparing Jinn to Revan.

I'm not. I'm saying his example doesn't work, lol. He could've given a better example.

Although they're probably closer than you think.

They aren't even remotely comparable.

R2 carries his team to victory

R2D2 probably solos, yeah.

He endured a blast to the face from droids that could've "destroyed a planet" or some sh!t. :3

Originally posted by AncientPower
They aren't even remotely comparable.

In some domains.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Except Revan resisted Vitiate's TP, lol.
Revan wasn't able to resist during his first encounter. There is no reason to doubt his willpower at that time as well but Vitiate's telepathic abilities took him by surprise. Revan learned from his experience and developed countermeasures in response.

Unfortunately for you, no Jedi in the proposed Strike Team has the exposure, experience and capabilities of Revan (Reborn) under his belt.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Vitiate couldn't even break the Act II strike team without incapacitating them first, and this team is better in every way.
1. I see that as a matter of choice. Vitiate wasn't taking his chances with 4 powerful Jedi in front of him and decided to hit them first. It is also possible that Vitiate subjected them to telepathic pressures during the fight. One statement gives this impression.

2. The proposed team isn't better than the other in (every) way. It comprises of a powerhouse, two above-average Jedi and one droid. The droid is a non-factor, the above-average Jedi are fodder, and we are left with Mace Windu who won't last long in the end.

The Strike Team that confronted Vitiate during the events of SWTOR, comprised of two powerhouses and two above-average Jedi. On the whole, it was a quality team.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Given enough time, could Vitiate subjugate the mind of Kit Fisto or even Qui-Gon? Quite possibly. But he isn't going to be afforded the luxury of uninterrupted channeling time. He'll be attacked constantly.
Telepathic powers materialize instantly and Vitiate can break even a well-trained Force-user in a split-second moment. All Vitiate needs is some distance to channel his telepathic abilities.

Do also keep in mind that Vitiate can multi-task with his powers. He can exert pressure on the minds of the Jedi while (simultaneously) subjecting them to additional powers and such pressures will be sufficient to disorient the Jedi and they will eventually falter.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan wasn't able to resist during his first encounter. There is no reason to doubt his willpower at that time as well but Vitiate's telepathic abilities took him by surprise. Revan learned from his experience and developed countermeasures in response.

Revan had practically already fallen during their first encounter.



We have Mace, who's more skilled and powerful, and Qui-Gon, who rivals Revan as a swordsman.

More importantly, even on the nexus, Meetra, Scourge and Revan were capable of beating Vitiate as much as he was capable of beating them. Mace > Revan, Qui-Gon >> Meetra and Kit Fisto >>> novel Scourge, plus R2's here for the lols. This is a better team than one that could more or less get an even split with Vitiate on a nexus. In other words, even on a nexus, this team would beat Vitiate for at least a solid majority, and they'd take every round on neutral ground.



This team is much better. Mace shits on anyone in that team, and could probably take Braga/Sedoru//Narezz alone. Qui-Gon and Kit Fisto are also above any of those three or Act II HoT.

Not to mention that that was a Vitiate who had spend three hundred years studying the dark side since the novel (which is the incarnation in this thread).



The novel established that, even on a nexus, Vitiate had to gather energies and channel his powers. It required time and focus such that he was completely susceptible to attack from Revan. The same would occur here. Trying to subjugate an opponent's mind would leave Vitiate vulnerable to attack from one of the others.

Meetra's Saber Throw also could've killed the Emperor. Novel Vitiate's awareness as a combatant is rather lackluster.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Meetra's Saber Throw also could've killed the Emperor. Novel Vitiate's awareness as a combatant is rather lackluster.



Vitiate probably walks into someone's saber again. He's also got shit aim:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjh6vparLcw&t=6m55s

I think I'll change my answer to "Vitiate dies" in the second round as well.

Originally posted by SunRazer
We have Mace, who's more and powerful,
Arguably.
What was your reasoning, for Mace > Revan Reborn, again?

You'd put Jinn > Fisto? mmm

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oz8xLd9DJq2l2VFtu/giphy.gif

He's here instead of T3-M4.

Assuming he doesn't fight like a retard, he might win, but he will so...

@Urs - Jinn being a near-equal of Maul's puts him above Fisto, given that they're factually on different levels.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Urs - Jinn being a near-equal of Maul's puts him above Fisto, given that they're factually on different levels. Too bad that couldn't be further from the truth kek.

Which part? I already explained Jinn nearing Maul as per the more recent End Game in the thread with Antares Draco, and in the same thread Zoltan talked about how that reconciled well with Bondara's performance.

Maul's an 8 and Kit's a 7, so yeah, they're on different levels.

Please link me.

It's on the first page you lazy c-unt.

OK I read the Luceno version, not that impressed. And to argue from that that Jinn is a near equal of Maul is kinda ridic.

Just like arguing tcw maul is an equal of tcw kenobi as a duelist is ridiculous

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
R2 solos

This, R2 solos his own team+vitisucks

Originally posted by MythLord
R2D2 probably solos, yeah.

He endured a blast to the face from droids that could've "destroyed a planet" or some sh!t. :3
If you can find that quote...
Oh and he also destroyed de sidious's empire

I'll take Vitiate's mere presence reducing entire Dark Councils to feeble minded peasants and say that Windu's teammates are pretty terrible choices.

I solo.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
OK I read the Luceno version, not that impressed. And to argue from that that Jinn is a near equal of Maul is kinda ridic.

How so?

Because despite it all he still "barely escaped with his life" and was "severely tested" by his own omission, Luceno hasn't retconned that, in fact the fight more or less occurs the same, it's just a little more semantically generous to Jinn.

Simply put though I will concede that Jinn was able to "match" his strength for a time, it was nothing something he could at all sustain, and he's still a 30 second affair for Maul.

Also, Fisto should logically be Jinn since AotC Obi rivals/surpasses Qui and he's still inferior to Fisto.

Originally posted by MythLord
Also, Fisto should logically be Jinn lol

Fisto is Jinn reincarnated yeah.

Also I'm not seeing where End Game downplay's Maul's injury. So he was still "not at his best."

Vitiate dominates. I can honestly see Fisto and Jinn just straight up falling to his TP from the onset. He casually dominated a powerful Sith Lord in Dramath before becoming hundreds of times more powerful and skillful - and brought Scourge to his knees via a passing touch of his mind.

Mace can be defeated either through TK, or lightning, and Artoo is useless.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
lol

Above Jinn.*

You of all people shouldn't lol given your inability to properly use "an". :3

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
and Artoo is useless. You dropped the ball big this time.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because despite it all he still "barely escaped with his life" and was "severely tested" by his own omission, Luceno hasn't retconned that, in fact the fight more or less occurs the same, it's just a little more semantically generous to Jinn.

Well, if you're losing in a duel with deadly weapons, you probably will barely escape with your life. And if you're equal or near-equal with someone, then you'll obviously be "severely tested". Maul was also severely tested, lol.

What I was trying to draw attention to was Maul's admission that he only began to get the advantage once Jinn's stamina declined, which means that End Game retconned Qui-Gon to being virtually equal to Maul in other domains of lightsaber fighting.

For what it's worth, the TPM novel, even with its' favourable position on Maul, depicts the two "surging back and forth across the flats".



You realize that he fought for a hell of a lot longer than 30 seconds against Maul on Naboo, right? Granted, Maul wasn't as aggressive, but you're underplaying Jinn's stamina.



It's from the Ep 1 Journal where Maul claims that his injury is "almost imperceptible" but "still there". Obviously he's not at his best, but it's not that big of a deal.

Qui-Gon wasn't necessarily at his best either. He had been running from Mos Espa to the outskirts non-stop until he encountered Maul. I vaguely recall a quote about him being tired already, but I don't remember where it's from. I'll get back to you if I can find it.

I wouldn't go as far as saying he's virtually Maul's equal. Unless you think TPM Kenobi is below shit, since Maul fought them both head on.

But yeah, End Game + Anoon scaling should definitely put Qui-Gon far out of stomping range for Maul.

Well, Maul was injured there, so (a slightly tired?) Qui-Gon is virtually equal with a slightly injured Maul. There's no other interpretation when Maul himself admits that he only got the advantage due to Qui-Gon's flagging stamina.

And nah, two-on-ones tend to work that way in SW. It's not like you add Obi-Wan's skill on top of Qui-Gon's and say that Maul could eclipse that.

By the way, Cloak of Deception claims that some of Qui-Gon's spars with Anoon Bondara were "brief", which may well mean that he could beat Bondara easily and swiftly at times.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, if you're losing in a duel with deadly weapons, you probably will barely escape with your life. And if you're equal or near-equal with someone, then you'll obviously be "severely tested". Maul was also severely tested, lol.Nonsense gymnastics lol. If Jinn barely escaped with his life that means his life was about to be taken i.e. he was about to lose. And it is you who has decided they were near-equals, nowhere is Maul described as severely tested, nor does he display any signs of fatigue.

It hasn't retconned anything, in all renditions of the fight Maul intially has an advantage, then it evens out, and then Jinn begins to decline, I suggest you re-read prior sources.

Nonetheless this is no more proof that Maul and Jinn are near equals, than Ahsoka having the upper hand against Vader at the start of their duel proves she is better, Maul still ended up emerging decisively superior. And in their second duel on Naboo, the sources describe Maul holding off both Jinn and Kenobi with contemptuous ease. Whom also admits that Maul is both faster and stronger than him.

Because Maul purposefully drew out the fight yes, in order to divide and conquer his opponents, and once he had Jinn alone, dispatched him rather quickly. I also remember that throughout the course of the duel, and despite Jinn having Kenobi for back up, he he almost never conceded the upper-hand.

Enough for Maul to state that the Jedi had "an advantage", and to cause Maul significant frustration. Nonetheless I'm not attempting to overstate the advantage, only pointing out it was a factor, another factor being that Maul was not wielding his saberstaff.

I would appreciate it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Qui-Gon seems to be the type of guy with immense willpower. Not to mention Mind Tricking Hutts is pretty good.

oh well if he seems like it guess thats good enough to resist a top 5 telepath

My bad, I assumed you were well, contesting my point. I which case I assume you agree with me when I say that Jinn could not maintain parity with Maul for any serious length of time. Which means holistically they are not really near equals at all, at least from my perspective.

And no not at all tbh, Maul has fought very few Jedi opponents and evidently holds him self to a very high standard, he's just frustrated that he didn't crush Jinn underfoot, and that Jinn indeed as able to escape. And from that fact that Maul was not fatigued, I extrapolate that he was not severely tested.

What a way to miss my point. My point is the sources are not different in how they render the fight.

But no, End Game describes Jinn as initially caught off guard, which corroborates with the other sources. In fact from reading End Game its quite obvious that Luceno was referring to previous renderings as a guide, and rewriting events in his own words. Again, re-read them.

There is also the primary source itself, the film, in which we see quite clearly that Maul initially drives him back.

You can't separate the two I'm afraid, Qui-Gon got tired because he was pressed to a severe degree, by Maul's strength, speed and skill. The fact that Maul showed no signs of fatigue indicating the following obvious conclusion, that Jinn's abilities were not nearly as pressing.

Not sure what the point your trying to make is but I'll just repeat myself, Qui-Gon drove Maul back because Maul let him.

My point being that he cannot be considered near-equal to Maul if he can't maintain pace with him. Any more than Ahsoka should be considered Vader's better then she couldn't maintain her advantage. He was evidently burning much more energy than Maul to be able to achieve that, and remained a 30 second affair even when Maul was in a weakened state.

Originally posted by MythLord
Above Jinn.*

You of all people shouldn't lol given your inability to properly use "an". :3
an hero

@Beni - Pretty much all of our disagreements boil down to the separation between skill and stamina. Obviously Qui-Gon lacked the stamina to compete. I'm saying his skills matched up to Maul's. As he admits in the TPM novel and as TCSWE describes, he's physically inferior and can't last as long before tiring. As far as sheer skill with a blade goes, though, they're about even.

Also, you're right on Maul's initial attack surprising Qui-Gon, but End Game and the Episode 1 Journal reveal that Maul himself was surprised by Qui-Gon's ability to block the attack. As you said, he was surprised that he couldn't crush Qui-Gon underfoot, but that doesn't mean he was underselling himself throughout the fight. He still realized that he was only getting the advantage once Qui-Gon tired.

So we're basically in agreement here.

well there was the fact the 1 v 1 was on tattoine, which looking at kenobi's fight vs hett could affect combatats wiht less stamina

Originally posted by SunRazer
Revan had practically already fallen during their first encounter.
Dark Jedi would be the appropriate description. However, Revan was not on his way to become a Sith. When he learned about the existence of Sith from Mandalore the Ultimate, he was shocked and decided to assassinate the Sith Emperor so that the Sith Empire would implode from within and would be an easy picking after that.

My argument is about breach of Revan's mental defenses. I don't think a lesser Telepath than Vitiate could manage that. And if you have any doubt, then keep in mind that Vitiate broke the duo of Revan and Malak almost effortlessly. So it is not like as if Vitiate was not capable of breaking them otherwise.

Originally posted by SunRazer
We have Mace, who's more skilled and powerful, and Qui-Gon, who rivals Revan as a swordsman.
Even if we assume that Mace Windu is individually superior to any member of the Strike Team that confronted Vitiate, he is unlikely to carry his Team to victory. He would be preoccupied with saving his own @ss.

Qui-Gon Jinn's dueling skills are almost irrelevant. Vitiate would swat him like a fly with his powers before it comes down to that.

Originally posted by SunRazer
More importantly, even on the nexus, Meetra, Scourge and Revan were capable of beating Vitiate as much as he was capable of beating them. Mace > Revan, Qui-Gon >> Meetra and Kit Fisto >>> novel Scourge, plus R2's here for the lols. This is a better team than one that could more or less get an even split with Vitiate on a nexus. In other words, even on a nexus, this team would beat Vitiate for at least a solid majority, and they'd take every round on neutral ground.
Lord Scourge was skeptical about that. He did foresee some scenarios in which Vitiate was neutralized but he eventually came to the conclusion that defeat was more likely (confirmation in the novel). In-fact, he foresaw defeat even in his sleep earlier. So there's that.

And your power rankings are laughable.

Revan (Reborn) > Mace Windu > Meetra Surik > Qui-Gon Jinn > Lord Scourge

Originally posted by SunRazer
This team is much better. Mace shits on anyone in that team, and could probably take Braga/Sedoru//Narezz alone. Qui-Gon and Kit Fisto are also above any of those three or Act II HoT.

Not to mention that that was a Vitiate who had spend three hundred years studying the dark side since the novel (which is the incarnation in this thread).
Dude seriously?

Hero of Tython slaughtered Darth Angral in single combat earlier, the guy who stalemated heavyweights such as Darth Baras and Satele Shan in a confrontation on separate occasions and slaughtered Jedi Master Orgus Din. And even Din was no slouch in combat, he had considerable experience and Force abilities.

Tol Braga and others presented significant challenge to Hero of Tython during the Act-III proceedings at individual capacity. My take on this matter is that it was not possible for a lone warrior to take on and defeat the trio of Braga, Warren Sedoru and Leeha Narezz much like Vitiate. So there's that.

I would say that Tol Braga is in the TIER of Satele Shan and others are not far behind.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The novel established that, even on a nexus, Vitiate had to gather energies and channel his powers. It required time and focus such that he was completely susceptible to attack from Revan. The same would occur here. Trying to subjugate an opponent's mind would leave Vitiate vulnerable to attack from one of the others.
Author's pathetic writing not withstanding, every Force-user has to do that (technically speaking). And no! Revan found no opening or gap to exploit. Even when Vitiate was momentarily down, he was able to stop Revan's advance in time.

Vitiate can (and will) swiftly break the Strike Team you proposed. The only nuisance would be the droid but it would taken care of.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Meetra's Saber Throw also could've killed the Emperor. Novel Vitiate's awareness as a combatant is rather lackluster.
Vitiate was fixated on Revan during that moment. Why you keep forgetting that?

When Palpatine was fixated on Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader found the opportunity to kill Palpatine during that moment. Per your logic, Palpatine's awareness as a combatant is rather lackluster.

---

Let me clarify my position a bit. I acknowledge that their is always a possibility for a move to succeed in a fight that involves a Strike Team. A member of the Strike Team can get lucky during the course of combat and score a hit on the lone target. However, Vitiate has monstrous AoE capabilities. If he makes his move first and subjects the entire Strike Team to his powers with no member lucky enough to escape contact, the Strike Team is done for.

Mace isn't factually more powerrful than any incarnation of Revan.

De Agostini established that just yesterday.

You were basically alone on that interpretation, lol.

Unless I'm mistaken, your first scan had him talking about how this stuff belongs to Legends and not Canon, and the second scan talks about how newer material retcons older ones. That was it.

Refer back to the thread in the EU section. You're wrong.

Ants interpretation was clearly correct. Come on guys.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Urs - Jinn being a near-equal of Maul's puts him above Fisto, given that they're factually on different levels.

Jinn being a near-equal of Maul's

What are you smoking?

Have you considered reading a bit further along where my explanation for that is?

Jinn' a 7, not an 8, most likely.

I think one could argue Jinn used to be an 8 considering some sources state that Jinn was outmatched due to his age specifically, but Jinn being comparable to Maul as of Episode I is just not true.

Jinn's probably a high 7 or a low 8, tbh.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You were basically alone on that interpretation, lol. Nah.

Even so, Mace is so far > Jinn that him being > Revan wouldn't be saying much for any Prequel Trilogy Jedi.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Jinn' a 7, not an 8, most likely.

Possibly, but on the sole basis of stamina issues.

@SunRazer


Their minds were compromised in what sense? Their defenses were faltering?

Again, Vitiate managing to breach their minds, is a legitimate demonstration of power on his part. However, he found it extremely easy to complete their fall because they were already on the precipice of Dark Side at that point.

We have two statements:-

The legendary Jedi Revan and Malak confront the Sith Emperor in his throne room on Dromund Kaas. In mere moments, the Jedi lay defeated and consumed by the dark side of the Force.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

This is a straightforward revelation of what happened; not from the perspective of any historian or individual.

By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already at the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

This revelation tells us something more. It tells us that Revan and Malak were more like Dark Jedi at that point and Vitiate found it extremely easy to complete their fall. However, it doesn't tells us much about the breaching part.

And what kind of preparation? Vitiate was simply aware of their presence and instructed his Imperial Guard to let them through. If anything, Vitiate was taking the risk of confronting two battle-hardened warriors. Revan's words do not count as evidence of preparation of any sort.

On the whole, the showing is legitimate. All those ifs and buts are lame.


You are forgetting something; Vitiate one-shotted a Dark Council centuries earlier. Heck, Vitiate eliminated 9 members of the Dark Council by himself a day earlier.


Inferior Strike Team?

Revan (Reborn) + Meetra Surik + Lord Scourge >> Mace Windu + Qui-Gon Jinn + Kit Fisto any time of day.

And you continue to overlook this statement in Chapter 29:

Betraying his allies had not altered the inevitable outcome; the Emperor would have won regardless. At least this way Scourge was still alive to
carry on their cause.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

And what's with the nexus nonsense? Vitiate smoked a Jedi Strike Team on a Space Station.


Sure.

OK.

She failed to tackle a member of the Dark Council only; she tackled any other opponent just fine.

Also, if environment was such a big hindrance to her, how was she victorious on Malachor V?


Sure. But he had room for further growth by the time he met Vitiate.

Darth Baras did not stomp Darth Angral; confrontation ended when Darth Baras threw away his lightsaber and informed Darth Angral that he was mistaken about a matter.


He is not a joke. Loosing to a Sith Lord who was offered a position in the Dark Council is not a mark against him. Per this logic, Meetra Surik is a joke because she could not handle one.

He performed that feat with a gesture from a single hand, and did not appear to be exerting much. It is a legit demonstration of his Force abilities. We shall expect a battle-hardened Jedi Master to be that much capable or more.

And that setting was a battleground. Their is literally no difference in what you can manage during combat and otherwise. Only difference is that you create an opportunity or gap in a combat situation to utilize the environment to your advantage. Form VI, in particular, is good for this.


If the opening moments were like that, it is just as likely that the remainder of the confrontation was hard fought with Hero of Tython eventually gaining the upperhand.


Did Mace Windu cream a Jedi that strong even once?

She is stated to be a gifted warrior and her speed is incredible. I believe that she would present a decent challenge to Mace Windu in an all-out bout.


Revan knew what to expect in that fight and had calculated his options in advance. This cannot be said for the members of the Strike Team proposed by you.


It never came down to that in the first place.

Revan and T3-M4 proceeded to fight Vitiate while Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik were preoccupied with the Imperial Guard. When they all gathered in front of Vitiate, the latter was calculating his options but Lord Scourge delivered. Do also keep in mind that Revan's involvement complicated the situation for Vitiate in regards to Telepathy because Revan could do something about it. Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge were easy pickings otherwise. However, it was (absolutely) possible for Vitiate to send Revan packing across the hall with TK and turn either Lord Scourge or Meetra Surik against each other or Revan with Telepathy after that. It is not like as if Vitiate was out of options.

REPEAT:

Betraying his allies had not altered the inevitable outcome; the Emperor would have won regardless. At least this way Scourge was still alive to
carry on their cause.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Your lack of imagination and thought is disturbing. You have lost touch with the ways of the Force. You need training, and I shall be your Master.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
@SunRazer

Their minds were compromised in what sense? Their defenses were faltering?

Again, Vitiate managing to breach their minds, is a legitimate demonstration of power on his part. However, he found it extremely easy to complete their fall because they were already on the precipice of Dark Side at that point.

We have two statements:-

The legendary Jedi Revan and Malak confront the Sith Emperor in his throne room on Dromund Kaas. In mere moments, the Jedi lay defeated and consumed by the dark side of the Force.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

This is a straightforward revelation of what happened; not from the perspective of any historian or individual.

By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already at the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

This revelation tells us something more. It tells us that Revan and Malak were more like Dark Jedi at that point and Vitiate found it extremely easy to complete their fall. However, it doesn't tells us much about the breaching part.

And what kind of preparation? Vitiate was simply aware of their presence and instructed his Imperial Guard to let them through. If anything, Vitiate was taking the risk of confronting two battle-hardened warriors. Revan's words do not count as evidence of preparation of any sort.

You can't make a call of ignorance and then appeal to ignorance in the same post... Jesus Christ. If you think the lack of detail on how it happened means I can't make an assumption about how Vitiate defeated them, then you can't assume the reasons for Vitiate beating them either.

As for what kind of prep - how am I supposed to know? All I'm saying is that the showing was accomplished with prep, because Vitiate was expecting them. Whether or not he did prepare beforehand is unclear; what is clear is that if I'm asking for an instantaneous feat, this can't be used as conclusive evidence.



There's no ifs and buts. The context is simply unclear, as with any of these off-panel showings designed to be mysterious in nature. So many of Vitiate's feats are mired in circumstances that it is completely fair to question the legitimacy of the showing.



Again, no context. Could he have crushed them all instantly on merit of his own power? Possibly. But what's equally possible is that he prepared for their coming through whatever arcane means available to him, and defeated them with some sort of pre-prepared ritual. If anything, the latter is more likely. Why? Because instead of vaporising a lone, hindered Meetra Surik, Vitiate was literally studying her. If he could annihilate an entire Dark Council, what threat is Meetra Surik alone going to pose? The fact that Vitiate studied her for strengths and weaknesses instead of simply one-shotting her only draws more suspicions towards his apparent ability to one-shot the entire Dark Council on a whim.



We've already gone over this and it's clear that you're not even listening, so forget it. Heck, you later agreed with me on Mace being factually above Revan. And somehow you're still spouting this nonsense.



That was Scourge's belief after he beheld the vision of HoT striking down the Emperor. Because that one vision was clearer and more powerful. The prior visions he witnessed depicted both Vitiate's win and loss being played out in countless different ways and there was no telling of which was more likely by Scourge's own admission.



Above Dromund Kaas, yeah. And even Mandalorian Wars Revan was able to call on the dark side energies of Malachor from orbit. As a superior Force practitioner, Vitiate is entirely capable of doing the same.

The teams he smoked on DK and the space station are different as well. There's no telling if he could smoke Revan's party on a space station. The fact that he defeated another one isn't proof of that.



Because she wasn't written by Drew Karpyshyn.

I've explained the discrepancies between KotOR II and novel Exile already.



So what if he grew? Still zero proof that he could've slaughtered Angral.



That was their second fight. Their first fight went like this: http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5393206-rco028_1470110179.jpg

As you can see, it's a stomp. They clash blades briefly and Baras ends the fight with Lightning.



No, it wasn't a battleground. There wasn't a single hostile being in the vicinity and he had ample time to gather his power without fear of interruption. That is not the type of feat that is manageable in combat.

And no, Orgus is a joke. He's devoid of anything. His performance in the Jedi Knight prologue is embarrassing for someone of his stature, and you failed to even respond to that. I think we can safely assume that you lack an adequate response.



If only the opening move always indicated the actual path of a fight in Star Wars...



You could say the same of Plagueis. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Mace Windu doesn't need to have creamed a Satele before for me to make that claim. If his feats and accolades can be judged to be superior by that much of a margin, then such a claim is valid.

Again, Satele is completely devoid of saber feats or accolades even approaching Mace.

Forget it, though. I'm not having another PT vs TOR character debate within this discussion. We've got enough deviations as it is.

I didn't say Vitiate couldn't have won. All I'm saying is that Revan's team also could've won.

Here's the contradiction - Vitiate can apparently one-shot the entire Dark Council but is taken aback by Meetra Surik and Scourge, and studies them for strengths and weaknesses instead of simply annihilating them and then going on to finish off the still injured Revan. You'll forgive me if I don't think he'll instantly wipe out this group.



If this mess I'm responding to constitutes the ways of the Force, then nothing would please me more than being a Wound in the Force.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I didn't say Vitiate couldn't have won. All I'm saying is that Revan's team also could've won.

Here's the contradiction - Vitiate can apparently one-shot the entire Dark Council but is taken aback by Meetra Surik and Scourge, and studies them for strengths and weaknesses instead of simply annihilating them and then going on to finish off the still injured Revan. You'll forgive me if I don't think he'll instantly wipe out this group.
And did I deny that? My argument is that Vitiate's victory was more likely and I have brought several points to the table to lend credibility to my argument.

That pause implies nothing. See my bee analogy above.

Originally posted by SunRazer
If this mess I'm responding to constitutes the ways of the Force, then nothing would please me more than being a Wound in the Force.
https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000043102842/afd562c597df16854a8d8380041d25cc.jpeg

Mace solos

In "The Making of ROTS", in Lucas's own words, Mace is a proper 9, not an 8 bordering on 9.

He solos.

^

Mace indeed solos this.

R1: The Emperor dominates Fisto and Jinn, leaving Windu on his own. With the circumstantial boons he had whilst fighting Sheev, his Vaapad was still incapable of looping Sheev's full lightning. Without such a circumstance, he's not even performing that well.

R2: Vitiate destroys Fisto, Jinn and the droid, leaving Mace with a threat he is genuinely screwed against. Even FOTJ Luke was severely hampered on a less potent Dromund Kaas, the Dark Temple is far more potent than that.

No-nexus novel Vitiate isn't dominating Fisto and Jinn with Mace breathing down his neck. He does it to Revan and Malak due to explicitly extenuating circumstances, but even by SWTOR on nexuses has to overpower Jedi strike teams first before he TPs them.

He reduced an entire Dark Council to utter powerlessness with his mere presence. He made Tol Braga his servant with his mere presence, not telepathy. He chose not to TP them right away, that doesn't mean he couldn't. A simple brush of his mind put Scourge in the fetal position.

He was simultaneously breaking Revan, stalemating Sel-Makor, dominating the Dread Masters, suppressing Vaylin's power and dominating the First Son and his Children. As well as a laundry list of other things too.

Fisto and Jinn get fodderised.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
No-nexus novel Vitiate isn't dominating Fisto and Jinn with Mace breathing down his neck. He does it to Revan and Malak due to explicitly extenuating circumstances, but even by SWTOR on nexuses has to overpower Jedi strike teams first before he TPs them.

Fisto/jinn ain't comparable to Mando Revan, maybe malak.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
In "The Making of ROTS", in Lucas's own words, Mace is a proper 9, not an 8 bordering on 9.

He solos.
Quote me.

Originally posted by Azronger
Mace solos round 1. Vitiate probably wins round 2, though.

how times have changed