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Sabers
Force
All Out

Luke and it isn't close.

Any Luke before TUF loses.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Any Luke before TUF loses.

Luke wins.

Luke. Good fight.

Luke

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Any Luke before TUF loses.

How? Luke is canonically in his prime as of NJO:

This is Luke Skywalker at the height of his powers.

-Jedi Academy Training Manual

Meaning he's superior to his amped DE self who was overpowering DE Palpatine in the Force and defeated the latter in 32 seconds in a lightsaber duel (DE audio drama).

Luke is not losing to Yoda a single round.

Where's the part where he overpowers DE Palpatine in the Force? He got knocked down by Palpatine's Lightning and that was about it.

EDIT: Also, it wasn't really "his powers" that allowed him to defeat Palpatine. Leia and Anakin were helping him.

'His' being the important part, in his victory he was empowered by external powers that were not his own.

Yeah, that was Luke winning in the duel. Not him overpowering anything, lol.

Originally posted by AncientPower
'His' being the important part, in his victory he was empowered by external powers that were not his own.

Leia's elemantary BM amp was hardly a factor, lol. As mentioned in the comic, Leia was unlocking Luke's potential. That's his own power he's using to defeat Palpatine.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, that was Luke winning in the duel. Not him overpowering anything, lol.

I honestly have no idea how one can interpret it in this way.

Originally posted by Azronger
Leia's elemantary BM amp was hardly a factor, lol. As mentioned in the comic, Leia was unlocking Luke's potential. That's his own power he's using to defeat Palpatine.

Elementary*

Leia and fetal Anakin's full meditative power allowed Luke to unlock his full potential, which is FOTJ+ given we have no idea how powerful Luke was before he died and if he ever achieved said potential.

You just defeated your own argument, Amped DE Luke was unleashing FOTJ Luke+ tier powers in their fight. FOTJ Luke >>> NJO Luke for the record.

Luke's untapped power, in conjunction with Leia's and Anakin's power still.

Luke's potential being untapped doesn't rule our Leia and Anakin too pooling their power - the two aren't mutually exclusive - especially given the description of Force Harmony. Furthermore, Luke beat Sidious in a duel, not in a Force contest.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Leia and fetal Anakin's full meditative power allowed Luke to unlock his full potential, which is FOTJ+ given we have no idea how powerful Luke was before he died and if he ever achieved said potential.

Leia performed BM by accident. It was hardly her full meditative power, lmao. And Anakin only stepped in to cut Palpatine off the Force; he wasn't involved in the BM amp.



I didn't defeat anything, since the amount of potential that was unlocked isn't even close to his maximum. You pulled that out of your ass. The comic even says Luke's potential was being unlocked even more after he had defeated Palpatine, so how could it be his full potential if more was being unlocked afterwards?

The obvious conclusion is that Luke's full potential wasn't unlocked when he defeated Palpatine, and is supported by the JA training manual stating Luke is even more powerful now.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Luke's untapped power, in conjunction with Leia's and Anakin's power still.

Only Leia's.



Anakin didn't pool his power and Leia's accidental, elementary Battle Meditation wouldn't logically help much.

And I already posted a quote proving Luke was overpowering Palpatine in a Force battle.

Christ Almighty, where's Tempest when you need him?

Wait what? I didn't see anything about aakin doing anything in dark empire, someone explain please?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Christ Almighty, where's Tempest when you need him?

Are you going to respond or just indirectly insult me?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Wait what? I didn't see anything about aakin doing anything in dark empire, someone explain please?

Anakin joined Luke and Leia when they cut Palpatine off from the Force.

Was it? I vaguely recall Anakin helping too - maybe I was thinking of another instance.

Even then, Leia Force potential is immense, and given her harmony is powerful enough to untapped potential in Luke that even he didn't know was there, I'd say her power is more than negligible adage.



Based on what? A personal whim? lmao.

What a Skywalker logically can do, isn't of relevance. Luke, was able to cause Vader unholy pain the very first time he exhibited offensive telepathic power - logically, that shouldn't have happen either. The same with Kyle Durron, or kid Vitiate.

Force users with insane innate potential can be pretty freaking powerful in certain abilities without actual any prior usages of it.

Leia can be argued to be no exception.



No, you didn't, lmao.

Leia couldn't actually "see" Luke and Sidious duel - only feel ( E.I. waves of Light and Dark) their presence in the Force and she felt that the light, or Luke, was winning the duel as she couldn't actually "see" it with her eyes. No way does this prove she was referring to then using the Force to attack each other, especially when we visually see no Force physical attacks actually being used in the comies.

You're trying to interpret the dark and light waves as Force power being thrown by Luke and Palpatine, but that doesn't make sense at all given the context.

Originally posted by Azronger
Anakin joined Luke and Leia when they cut Palpatine off from the Force.
So anakin's spirit came back to put the finishing touch on palp? I would love to see an excerpt of this

Anakin Solo, not Skywalker.

Anakin Solo babe, not Skywalker.

Edit: ninja'd.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Was it? I vaguely recall Anakin helping too - maybe I was thinking of another instance.

Anakin only helped in cutting Palpatine off the Force. He had no involvement in amping Luke.



What is this Force harmony stuff everyone keeps bringing up? I've never seen a source for it.



Probably based on the fact that it is described as an elementary application of the ability. If simple Battle Meditation is going to propel a Vader-tier to DE Palpatine+ level, then it isn't elementary, but the most potent application of Battle Meditation ever performed in the mythos, lmao. This should be like the most obvious thing ever, lol.



Quote/scan?



Oh, so her specifically noting how strong the Force was, and the waves of power they emanated, was all just her sensing who was winning the lightsaber duel? Lmao. The most straightforward interpretation is that she felt their Force powers clashing. No need for baseless nonsense.

And Palpatine does use Force Lightning in the comic, so you're wrong:

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111282615/5395362-luke+beats+sidious.png



It makes far more sense than your mental gymnastics, lol.

Before I even continue this discussion - exactly what ability, in your opinion, did Leia use to unlock Luke's potential during his duel with Sidious?

I don't know, and all we have is speculation regarding the matter.

And before I continue this discussion - respond to our last debate before starting a new one, goddammit.

That's why some suspect to Leia as using Force Harmony, or something similar, even during the duel because that's exactly the power she used to unlock even more of his potential to make Sids lose control of his Force Storm.

Other than that, I can't think of many abilities that allows one to unlock the potential of another, as it's only been done one other time and that was by Exar Kun.



Also, what discussion? Tenebrous vs Vitiate? That Plagueis vs Bane's era one?

Vima-Da-Ooga-Booga confirms Leia was using Battle Meditation to help Luke.

An rudimentary application of it, though. Don't see how that could unlock potential.

It does unlock it, though, because I guess Leia is just that OP.

I mean, Leia did manage to use BM to severely damage Sidious in Empire's End, so yeh...

Damn, my opinion on Leia has skyrocketed.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
That's why some suspect to Leia as using Force Harmony, or something similar, even during the duel because that's exactly the power she used to unlock even more of his potential to make Sids lose control of his Force Storm.

Source for it being that power?



Either would be nice, but I meant the Tenebrous vs Vitiate one.

Originally posted by MythLord
It does unlock it, though, because I guess Leia is just that OP.

I hope you have something else to back your claim up, lol.



Severly damage? I don't see how the damage was severe at all.

But now that you have brought this up, this is another piece of proof that Leia's BM was negligible in amping Luke.

http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111282615/5721133-leia+uses+battle+meditation.png

Palpatine notes that Leia has improved her Battle Meditation, meaning it is now more potent than it was during the Luke vs Sidious fight.

By its very nature, Battle Meditation not only boosts allies, but also hinders and demoralizes enemies by an equal amount. So if Leia was amping Luke, she was also hindering Palpatine. And if Leia's improved version of the ability could only cause Palpatine some minor harm for a moment or two, then obviously the version she used to amp Luke couldn't have hindered Palpatine very much at all, and by proxy, couldn't have augmented Luke much either.

Except Palpatine isn't just feeling pain for a moment or two and Leia was harming Sidious from across the galaxy.

Originally posted by MythLord
Except Palpatine isn't just feeling pain for a moment or two and Leia was harming Sidious from across the galaxy.

Um, yes he is. Or do you have evidence backing up your claim? And the Eclipse II was just about to emerge from hyperspace, lol. It was hardly "from across the galaxy".

Well, I got the across the galaxy part wrong. But yeh, it was more than a few moments, he's screaming in pain for a good several seconds and is on the floor choking:
"EMPEROR: Yessss! Yessss! Excellent! She is strong to have sensed my presence. But still they are blind!

T'IAZ: My Lord, the Millennium Falcon is headed right for us. They seem unaware of our presence. Just as you predicted.

EMPEROR: Of course, T'iaz. Through the Dark Side, I am blinding their sensors. The daughter of Vader feels my presence, but she does not know (sound of Light Side rising against the Emperor), she cannot.... Ehhh? What's this? GAAAAaaaaaaa....kkk!

Sound: Choking, the Emperor falls to the floor in pain.

T'IAZ: My Lord!

EMPEROR: Aaaaahhh.... fierce Jedi. She's learned old Jedi tricks! TAKE THE SHIP! TRACTOR BEAM ON!!!"

-- EE Audiodrama

She also weakened him enough that she could directly TK him.

Well...I mean Sidious was dying with a genetically unstable clone and wasn't even really able to walk properly, so I'm sure that has something to do with it too.

Originally posted by MythLord
Well, I got the across the galaxy part wrong. But yeh, it was more than a few moments, he's screaming in pain for a good several seconds and is on the floor choking:
"EMPEROR: Yessss! Yessss! Excellent! She is strong to have sensed my presence. But still they are blind!

T'IAZ: My Lord, the Millennium Falcon is headed right for us. They seem unaware of our presence. Just as you predicted.

EMPEROR: Of course, T'iaz. Through the Dark Side, I am blinding their sensors. The daughter of Vader feels my presence, but she does not know (sound of Light Side rising against the Emperor), she cannot.... Ehhh? What's this? GAAAAaaaaaaa....kkk!

Sound: Choking, the Emperor falls to the floor in pain.

T'IAZ: My Lord!

EMPEROR: Aaaaahhh.... fierce Jedi. She's learned old Jedi tricks! TAKE THE SHIP! TRACTOR BEAM ON!!!"

-- EE Audiodrama

She also weakened him enough that she could directly TK him.

Not seeing how "a good several seconds" is any different from "a few moments" but whatever.

Nice find, though.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Well...I mean Sidious was dying with a genetically unstable clone and wasn't even really able to walk properly, so I'm sure that has something to do with it too.

Good point.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Damn, my opinion on Leia has skyrocketed.

I've told you about those feats twice already...

**** me. But yeah, you better rank Leia higher.

Read my thread, damn it.

Originally posted by Azronger
How? Luke is canonically in his prime as of NJO:

This is Luke Skywalker at the height of his powers.

-Jedi Academy Training Manual
I just read a source the other day that said RotJ Luke was the height of his powers, lol.

Of course NJO Luke is said to be at his height when LOTF and FOTJ isn't a thing yet.

Let's use some critical thinking, guys.

Originally posted by MythLord
Well, I got the across the galaxy part wrong. But yeh, it was more than a few moments, he's screaming in pain for a good several seconds and is on the floor choking:
"EMPEROR: Yessss! Yessss! Excellent! She is strong to have sensed my presence. But still they are blind!

T'IAZ: My Lord, the Millennium Falcon is headed right for us. They seem unaware of our presence. Just as you predicted.

EMPEROR: Of course, T'iaz. Through the Dark Side, I am blinding their sensors. The daughter of Vader feels my presence, but she does not know (sound of Light Side rising against the Emperor), she cannot.... Ehhh? What's this? GAAAAaaaaaaa....kkk!

Sound: Choking, the Emperor falls to the floor in pain.

T'IAZ: My Lord!

EMPEROR: Aaaaahhh.... fierce Jedi. She's learned old Jedi tricks! TAKE THE SHIP! TRACTOR BEAM ON!!!"

-- EE Audiodrama

She also weakened him enough that she could directly TK him.

Yeah, this power is literally nothing like standard Battle Meditation.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I just read a source the other day that said RotJ Luke was the height of his powers, lol.

Mind posting it here?



Well, duh. Not sure how that alters my point, though.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
i is smart.

Originally posted by MythLord
Luke. Good fight.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yeah, this power is literally nothing like standard Battle Meditation.

Leia made it her own. :3