Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

In 2012, a quote was worth virtually nothing without tangible showcase to support it. Fast forward 5 years, and a tangible showcase is worth virtually nothing without a quote to support it. In the past, I've always been in support of accolades being more integrated into Star Wars discussions, even despite the fact that characters I generally champion (i.e. Revan) are generally hurt by them, not helped (via limitations established by Darth Plagueis, Yoda, and Palpatine). However, I've now observed that there is such an emphasis on accolades that proper debate and discussion is virtually impossible. However, this blog isn't meant to be aimed at anyone in particular, for all I find we're all to blame for this (hell, just a couple months ago I was one of the chief advocates of this policy).

As it stands, a quote is absolute. If it is stated, then it is law.

However, after further consideration, I'm not sure why for two reasons.

For one, why are some quotes embraced fully, but others ignored (or, frankly, avoided)? For example, if the policy for Star Wars quotes was fully employed by members here, Palpatine as of Dark Empire is factually more powerful than the Son (and Palpatine as of Revenge of the Sith is more powerful than Abeloth). I expect everyone who fully adheres to the "if it is stated, then it is fact" policy to accept this. Also, other Star Wars publications, such as Head-to-Head, which is not only canon but written by the head of Star Wars canon, is laughed at. Why? This also applies to all non-gaming Star Wars publications that features statistics for characters. While gameplay stats, such as from roleplaying sourcebooks, can be dismissed due to quotes via Leland Chee, these stats cannot. It is canonical, as per the policy most members have here, that Darth Vader is a better fighter than RotJ Palpatine. Not only is this stated, but these stats can consistently be traced across numerous sources. It is also canonical fact that Palpatine has a weaker lightsaber defense than Dooku, that Qui-Gon would offer more to a battle than Yoda, etc. So I ask: why are statements from some sources accepted while others dismissed, despite them all equally being C-Canon?

Don't answer, just accept that for all continuing the current policy, I expect and demand all to embrace all the "facts" I mentioned above (and all others).

Secondly, it's the obvious fact that Star Wars publications are changing and flawed. If Pablo Hidalgo is writing in published works that Kit Fisto is defeating Darth Maul in a fight, then I'm not sure why we can't accept the fact that no source is perfect. Statements will be made that don't reflect the actual Star Wars continuity. In particular, some sources will have certain opinions of characters that are inconsistent with the majority of Star Wars sources. Nevertheless, quotes are cherry-picked from these sources. For example one, take the recent Scholastic publication that stated that Darth Vader was more powerful than Anakin Skywalker. Debaters neglect the fact that said source regards Anakin Skywalker only as powerful and skilled as Obi-Wan Kenobi. Thus, the claim that Darth Vader is more powerful than Anakin Skywalker is dismissed when recognizing where the source actually holds Anakin Skywalker. For example two, take Fact Files' opinion of Mace Windu. As per Fact Files, Mace Windu is as powerful in the Force as Yoda - something that is reaffirmed in both the 2003 and even the currently running publication. Members ignore this, but nonetheless cite Mace Windu's status as the second most powerful Jedi unquestioned. Of course the source would put Mace Windu as the second greatest if they regard him as on par with Yoda. However, given that Mace Windu isn't on par with Yoda, where Mace Windu actually ranks in the history of the Jedi is still completely up for debate in logical minds (I've contacted the publisher on this matter as well, by the way). On a side note, the source states that Mace Windu had to use "all his skills" to defeat Asajj Ventress. Many members dismiss this one way or another, but the quote is explicit and there is nothing directly contradicting it. It's, again, one of those quotes where everyone pretends to ignore but it's nonetheless still there.

Instead, I truly do believe that the important of quotes should be dialed back a step and in-line with tangible showcases. The current way of discussion inherently discourages debate in favor of blindly accepting quotes made decades ago by publishers that do not have even half of the Star Wars knowledge that most of us have. We're not even debaters anymore - just people who read quotes. It's just boring and I, at the very least, will no longer be adhering to the generally accepted policy. I don't think members realize that there has never been any official statement from Star Wars declaring any publication without error and biblical. Nor do I think any member would want to see if publishers who wrote sources decades ago would confirm that their quotes still adhere to Star Wars canon to this day (since we all know they would laugh and say obviously not).

Now, I already have a mental list of who will agree with me on this and who won't (and of those who won't, those who will take jabs at me personally), so let's see.

It's not a line, it's a Great Wall of China built around PT worship.

Asajj was choked into submission by Dooku in a most ungentlemanly fashion. Mace'd curb her hard. LMAO

I agree with the gist - people display double standards in what they take seriously and don't.

I know people dismiss quotes by saying what's backed up logically and what not - but what's logical is subjective in itself, at the end of the day.

Why the **** is DE Palpatine factually more powerful than the Son?

"Indeed, as Vader had warned, the Emperor had become the Dark Side's most powerful expression."

The quote solidifies the Emperor's superiority to Abeloth, at the very least, as per current quote policy.

The Son has a more recent quote stating that his power is beyond the domain of any Sith.

Also, Palpatine is technically a "mortal", at least up until DE. The Ones are factually more powerful than any mortal beings.

Anyway, I actually agree with this. However, is the Fact File quote on Mace being equal to Yoda from Fact File 11? If it's from another issue, it's not necessarily binding. The Fact Files and sources of that type have numerous authors and do contradict each other from time to time. They're not really consistent in that sense. It makes more sense to treat each Fact File as a separate source.

Lol, go retire already.

If there is a contradiction in the source material, then I'd say said quote can be dismissed (i.e. Dooku stalemating Yoda in a telekinetic battle).

However, if a quote is presented, with nothing to contradict it, then it's valid, I'd say (i.e. Darth Plagueis being > Vitiate/Valkorion. Most would immediately bring up Vitiate's - in their minds - better feats, but fail to realize that Plagueis' upper limit has never been established by his feats, so one can't baselessly claim Vitiate's feats would be out of Plagueis' range. Accoridng to the quote, they're not, and that's that).

Nice assessment.

Originally posted by Azronger
If there is a contradiction in the source material, then I'd say said quote can be dismissed (i.e. Dooku stalemating Yoda in a telekinetic battle).

However, if a quote is presented, with nothing to contradict it, then it's valid, I'd say (i.e. Darth Plagueis being > Vitiate/Valkorion. Most would immediately bring up Vitiate's - in their minds - better feats, but fail to realize that Plagueis' upper limit has never been established by his feats, so one can't baselessly claim Vitiate's feats would be out of Plagueis' range. Accoridng to the quote, they're not, and that's that).
Darth Plagueis's quote refers to living Sith Lords only. Sorry but Valkorion doesn't fits in that.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Plagueis's quote refers to living Sith Lords only. Sorry but Valkorion doesn't fits in that.

Don't see anything about living Sith Lords written in it so no.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The Son has a more recent quote stating that his power is beyond the domain of any Sith.

Also, Palpatine is technically a "mortal", at least up until DE. The Ones are factually more powerful than any mortal beings.
As per the databanks? That's only up to 4 ABY, I believe.

Your second point doesnt apply to DE Palpatine, as you pointed out.

Originally posted by Azronger
Don't see anything about living Sith Lords written in it so no.
the 'who ever lived' part.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The Son has a more recent quote stating that his power is beyond the domain of any Sith.

Also, Palpatine is technically a "mortal", at least up until DE. The Ones are factually more powerful than any mortal beings. To be accurate, it says his powers existed "beyond the domain of the Sith Lords" not just any one particular Sith. As a Sith Lord, Palpatine's power remained in that domain up until his death, and though it could be argued he too moved outside that domain post-ROTJ, no DE source, to my knowledge, reaffirms his status as the most powerful dark sider regardless.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
the 'who ever lived' part.

Valkorion lived, so it applies.

Welcome to my world.

Originally posted by Azronger
Valkorion lived, so it applies. Not according to Legend, lmao.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not according to Legend, lmao.

Yeah, I knew the TOR brigade was desperate but this is truly something else.

Next excuse: Valkorion isn't powerful, he's beyond powur.

Ah wait, they already tried that.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
As per the databanks? That's only up to 4 ABY, I believe.

Your second point doesnt apply to DE Palpatine, as you pointed out.
Actually, according to yourself, no source refers to DE Palpatine as a Sith, so the first quote is pointless too.

As per current policy, Palpatine > the Son and Abeloth.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Actually, according to yourself, no source refers to DE Palpatine as a Sith, so the first quote is pointless too.

As per current policy, Palpatine > the Son and Abeloth. Yup not single valid source attests to this. Big shame.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Next excuse: Valkorion isn't powerful, he's beyond powur.

Ah wait, they already tried that.

It wouldn't work anyway, since Palpatine has both unlimited power and is at the same time beyond the very concept of power itself

There truly is no way Valkorion can win

True, but despite that Ant's already prepared the next excuse.

Originally posted by Azronger
Valkorion lived, so it applies.
Lol

Originally posted by Azronger
Valkorion lived, so it applies.
The living part lasted till the events of Revan. Valkorion became an intangible spirit after that.

Full explanation here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=640189&pagenumber=5#post16125202

Lmao

Btw whats the scholastic source that says Vader is more powerful than Anakin and that Anakin is only as skilled as Obi Wan?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yup not single valid source attests to this. Big shame.
The Emperor being the dark-sides most powertful expression?

Hell, TCSWE finds RotS Palpatine > Abeloth.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Actually, according to yourself, no source refers to DE Palpatine as a Sith, so the first quote is pointless too.

As per current policy, Palpatine > the Son and Abeloth.

Yeah, I literally backflipped on this in the other thread. There really is no source identifying him as a Sith, is there? Part of that comes down to when it was published and the definition of the term "Sith" then, or whether that term existed at all.

In any case, you're right. It's down to things like Leland Chee claiming that the Father is the most powerful Force user in history and the Father (being able to see the future) claiming that his family could wield the Force in ways that nobody else can.

The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.

The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view."

From Christopher Cerasi

---

Throwing this here since I can't my original post. Emphasis on different perspectives of characters and sources only providing nuggets of truth.

Thus, taking said nuggets as absolute truth is ridiculous.

I think gereral quotes like "the most powerful sith" or "the most powerful ___" are a little tricky and shouldn't always be taken literally since the author might not be taking something into account, like entities or they might have just forgotten about certain characters when they wrote it. But quotes that put someone directly over someone else that come from a valid source should be. Like if it says "____ is more powerful than ____", or something like that

The hard statements aren't the foggy windows we have to search for nuggets in, though.

@Rebel95: What you see in Legends is changes in the abilities of characters, however.

The power set of the classic Darth Vader isn't what we get in TFU.

Grievous, Mace Windu, and Asajj Ventress, in particular, are all over the place depending on the source and time period it was written.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The hard statements aren't the foggy windows we have to search for nuggets in, though.
There are rarely hard statements agreed upon across all sources.

This small category isn't the problem though. The rest is.

Well, as I said earlier in the thread, I actually agree with this. I've said before that no quote is outright gospel, but unless something's seriously amiss like Bane harnessing more knowledge and power than any Sith before him by PoD, you're better off not trying to contradict established material.

As NewGuy said, the more established and concrete statements like Palpatine's supremacy among the Sith (which has remained as such across a vast spectrum of sources, source types, and authors) pretty much cannot be challenged. If something is based entirely on an obscure reference and doesn't fit an agreed holistic portrayal, then we can question it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@Rebel95: What you see in Legends is changes in the abilities of characters, however.

The power set of the classic Darth Vader isn't what we get in TFU.

Grievous, Mace Windu, and Asajj Ventress, in particular, are all over the place depending on the source and time period it was written.
Yeah definitely

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The Emperor being the dark-sides most powertful expression?

Hell, TCSWE finds RotS Palpatine > Abeloth. I'm talking about DE. Pre-DE incarnations fall within "the domain of the Sith Lords".

For that matter, which sources refer to RotJ Palpatine as a Sith? The first (and currently only) thing leaping to my mind right now are quotes about how with Palpatine's death in RotJ, the Order of the Sith Lords was finally terminated.

When Palpatine was reborn, however, no source ascribes him a Sith moniker, and his apprentice is listed as a Dark Jedi rather than as a Sith Lord. Part of that has to do with the time it was written, of course, but without any clarification from the present, we're unfortunately devoid of answers as to whether they're Sith or not.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm talking about DE. Pre-DE incarnations fall within "the domain of the Sith Lords".
So... you agree?

Originally posted by SunRazer
For that matter, which sources refer to RotJ Palpatine as a Sith?
I imagine a lot of Scholastic sources.

With the galaxy now ripe for conquest, the Emperor has become the most powerful Sith Lord of all and a master of the Dark Side of the Force, ordering the extermination of the Jedi Order with the aid of his apprentice, the deadly Darth Vader.

From the Legends Epic Collection, would be one.

In regards to DE though, this was very likely because Palpatine hadn't been established as a Sith Lord yet. I don't think this is necessarily proof he abandoned the moniker.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So... you agree? To what? The fact that no source post-ROTJ describes Palpatine as the most powerful dark sider, or otherwise?

Ah, yes. That quote.

As I said, the definition of "Sith" was not yet founded at the point DE was written. But at this point, we may never get actual confirmation that he's a Sith.

In any case, this topic does remind me that I don't agree with the extent of the disparity between the Ones and Palpatine/Luke Skywalker that many people seem to believe in.

Ableoth's "dozen times Force strength" quote is almost certainly hyperbole to me, to be honest.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
To what? The fact that no source post-ROTJ describes Palpatine as the most powerful dark sider, or otherwise?
DE Endnotes?

That's in reference to RotJ. All of the ones from the DE Endnotes about Palpatine being the most powerful dark sider are referring to RotJ, in fact. In which case the Son's quote applies and retcons them.

Except the one about taming the dark side (I can't remember if it is), but the Son is literally the personification of the dark side, so he's exempt from the quote as well.

So yeah, it's all good actually

Not that clear cut. Not sure if it retcons DE too. Can you go backward?

Well, DE Palpatine has no new quotes of supremacy amongst dark side wielders. They're from RotJ, by which time we know the Son to be more powerful than Palpatine. In other words, DE Palpatine has the potential to surpass the Son (as in you can make the argument freely) but he's certainly not factually superior or anything of the sort.

And chances are, people won't be making that argument, although as I said before, I don't believe the gap is nearly as big as most people make out.

Confirmation that DE Palpatine is still a Sith Lord tbh, as he was still seeking out a Sith apprentice:
Still within the domain of the Sith Lords.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Ableoth's "dozen times Force strength" quote is almost certainly hyperbole to me, to be honest.
Luke Skywalker felt like that while he was under the chokehold of Abeloth. So definitely questionable.

@Beni - Good job.

@Legend - Yeah, and if it had been "twelve times" I'd be less inclined to call it hyperbole. "Dozen" just sounds too easy for hyperbole, tbh...

And of course, if Abeloth really were a dozen times more powerful, she'd never be having this much issue with Luke.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Except the one about taming the dark side (I can't remember if it is), but the Son is literally the personification of the dark side, so he's exempt from the quote as well. It says he succeeded in taming the dark side "where all others had failed" but it's helixed as from Palpatine's own point of view. Naturally, we have no reason to believe he's even aware of the Son, or Abeloth's existence.

Right, so we've tied up that loose end. Is there really anything else? Just RotS Palpatine > Abeloth, but we can dismiss that on account of reason.

Abeloth being more powerful than human comprehension and possibly more powerful than the Son are good starting points to disprove the idea of RotS Palpatine > Abeloth.

You're still thinking on a mortal scale, like Vader or Palpatine. Think bigger, like a storm or a tide. Like a living Force volcano.

-Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

I found it on DMB's RT. Seems to be a character opinion, but it's at least something. She also has a ton more accolades putting her above DE Palpatine, although this is the only one that states it directly.

That's Mara, IIRC, so it's valid. Thanks for the reminder.

It's enough to retcon the Palpatine quote. Remember that character statements are merely fallible, not inherently unreliable or inaccurate. They can still retcon (ie. Yoda's commentary on Dooku's powers in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous).

There's also Luke musing Abeloth is more powerful than he can comprehend, using the Force in a magnitude he never hasn't, etc., which all indirectly state she's beyond DE Palpatine.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at before.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Right, so we've tied up that loose end. Is there really anything else? Just RotS Palpatine > Abeloth, but we can dismiss that on account of reason.

Abeloth being more powerful than human comprehension and possibly more powerful than the Son are good starting points to disprove the idea of RotS Palpatine > Abeloth. Well Abeloth has been depicted as humbling both the Son and Daughter simultaneously, and logically speaking anyone who drank from the Font of Power as the Son did, should move beyond the realm of the Sith Lords, let alone the Font of Knowledge as well.

Indeed. I thought I was nearly alone on that, though, because when I came over here people kept citing the Son & Daughter and the Killiks re-imprisoning her over the course of the galaxy's history.

I mean, granted, the reliability of the source that shows Abeloth humbling both the Son and Daughter is definitely questionable. But she both drank from the Font of Power and bathed into the Pool of Knowledge. Look at how powerful Taalon became from falling into the Pool, and Abeloth drank from the Font as well.

As far as I'm concerned, that amounts to logical grounds capable of dismissing Palpatine's accolade.

Quite, there is at the very least every reason to believe Abeloth is within the Son's domain of ability, if not above.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
In 2012, a quote was worth virtually nothing without tangible showcase to support it.

Pretty sure this wasn't universal, just a thing among a certain group of people that held more sway back then than now.



Wrong, lifting heavy things can be impressive without an affirmative excerpt.



It does curtail debate, but it's not really wrong either.



Yes, for the most part, given that it's not contradicted by a depicted event or alternative source. There tend to be several interpretations of quotes though, some more liberal than others.



There are counter-quotes that address these issues.



Frankly I think the underlying truth is that even though there's no official established hierarchy among C-canon material, there's an obvious difference in status between the SWTOR Encyclopedia and some obscure scholastic magazine in debates.

It's not a pretty answer, and it'd be pretty difficult to made a hard policy around it, but it's the truth. And, just like before, I don't think that way of thinking is particularly wrong either.



**** you.



Isn't the policy here to favor the majority or the most recent entry?



Y'know, I never saw what the big deal was about this quote.



The weird, crooked rules you come up with from time to time also take the fun out of debating for the rest of the world, fyi.



Does my previous comment count?

Made me laugh out loud, tbh.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"Indeed, as Vader had warned, the Emperor had become the Dark Side's most powerful expression."

The quote solidifies the Emperor's superiority to Abeloth, at the very least, as per current quote policy.
Abeloth isn't only a darksider though, she's a chaotic emodiment of both the dark and the light side. She drank both from the fountain of power and pool of wisdom

The Pool of Knowledge is a dark side nexus. It just gave the Daughter light side powers, but she was inherently a different individual to Abeloth to begin with.

Abeloth was initially a mortal like Sarasu Taalon, who definitely didn't get anything of the light side from his falling into the Pool.

Source for it being a darkside nexus, because the living emodiment of the lightside getting her powers from a darkside nexus seems strange.

Somewhere in FotJ, presumably Vortex or Apocalypse. Don't have it on hand.

I'll ask in the quotes section

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Regarding the Windu quote:

https://s16.postimg.org/kkrm3o8xx/image.png

Shocker: I was right.

Again, doesn't change anything.

Originally posted by Rebel95
Btw whats the scholastic source that says Vader is more powerful than Anakin and that Anakin is only as skilled as Obi Wan?

What quote exactly is being referred to here?

Originally posted by Azronger
Again, doesn't change anything.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://s16.postimg.org/kkrm3o8xx/image.png

They're saying here that the quote is only accurate as of the time of the publication, which predates KotOR and SWTOR.

The re-release Fact Files apparently addresses those that came before, but they also make note that it's intended to be within the Canon continuity.

Even with the re-release, it doesn't apply to future characters and intentionally neglects those that the audience wouldn't be familiar with.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
the recent Scholastic publication that stated that Darth Vader was more powerful than Anakin Skywalker.

Why was the quote cut off halfway?

Full discussion of the quote in the vs section.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Full discussion of the quote in the vs section.

As I suspected, the in-context quote has nothing to do with what you're pawning it as.

The in-context quote changed topics to the current Disney policy.

Even Beni opted to focus on the snippet than the rest of the quote.

I messaged them back for further clarification regardless, but it's not needed.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The in-context quote changed topics to the current Disney policy.

That's because the Disney policy is what he's talking about, from start to finish.



http://media2.giphy.com/media/dFA067Ki8grsc/giphy.gif

I got the impression he was originally talking about the classic continuity, and then the Disney Canon talk shifted when my snipped ended (hence the snippet).

Not really. He claimed the Fact File was accurate at the time of its publication, then went on to say that it's not accurate currently because of Disney's overhaul of the pre-2013 EU material. Seems pretty clear cut to me.

The relevant passage to Ant's argument appears to be this:

http://i.imgur.com/bPMNnBS.png

Which would mean that it doesn't apply to new characters like KOTOR or SWTOR. But yeah, it does appear to be referring explicitly to the rebooted (later) series, not the Legends original. So it's an assumption to claim this same policy was in effect beforehand. Shame.

When is dis?