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All out battle to the death in the Geonosis arena to see who is the more powerful Sith Lord. Who wins?

Bonus round: Force only

Plagueis.

Plagueis.

Nihilus is EMBARASSED!

Darth Plagueis

Plagueis

Hego emerges victorious in both rounds.

Plagy.

Nihilus wins the day here.

His drain is clocked at "thought" speed. This is going to be a very short fight if his drain is included.

Drain aside, there's not much below DE Sids' Force Storm (Wormhole variation) that is going to touch his Absorb/Dissipate ability.

Yeah, Plagueis.

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
his Absorb/Dissipate ability.

?

Plagueis

Originally posted by NewGuy01
?

During the Telos battle scene on Youtube (Star Wars Kotor 2 - Battle of Telos) you can see from 1:32 to 1:36 there's around 21 hits that strike his vessel.

During the second scene from 1:39-1:42 there's around 15 hits (if you count differently on either of these two lemme know). (sorry it won't let me link yet I guess)

The interesting thing about this is that the vessel isn't taking any damage, and upon entering the vessel Canderous' soldier gives him a report on the ship in which he clearly states:



Nihilus himself is holding this vessel together as is shown here:



Of interest:



With particle shielding barely holding atmosphere and that being the sum of the shielding report, it should be understood that Nihilus is holding his ghost ship together and shielding it himself.

The ability to block Blaster Bolts and Force Lightning is called Absorb/Dissipate Energy:



I feel that is the closest to what we are seeing there unless someone wants to argue he can hold a ship's metal together under the power and energy of a direct turbolaser hit. I simply scale it up as a colossal use of the power.

So:

a.) He is extending his absorb/dissipate energy ability to cover his ship
b.) He is blocking dozens upon dozens of blaster bolts passively

which leads to:

c.) If he can do this for his ship, he can do this for himself

With that, I don't see how an energy attack of Plagueis' level is going to do anything to him. Even a saber strike is small potatoes to blocking turbolaser shots.

Darth Nihilus most likely

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
Nihilus wins the day here.

His drain is clocked at "thought" speed. This is going to be a very short fight if his drain is included.

Drain aside, there's not much below DE Sids' Force Storm (Wormhole variation) that is going to touch his Absorb/Dissipate ability.

The speed of thought isn't a very impressive benchmark when we're discussing the uppermost echelons of SW characters. Even RotJ Luke has moved within the speed of thought alone. Plagueis, whose speed decades before his prime was comparable to that of lightning, is vastly, vastly above that.

Sounds more like he's just holding the ship together as opposed to shielding it. He's already circumvented conditions that would result in the ship's destruction, so it's not too hard to believe.

Regardless, Plagueis is factually more powerful than Nihilus. He can circumvent Nihilus' defensive powers.

^^^

Darth Plagueis's superiority is not in strength but context-specific. His promotion as the most powerful Sith Lord in history rests upon his mastery of Midichlorian Manipulation ability as specified in the back cover(s) of the reprints of the original novel. And this promotion is entirely from a secondary source - Del Rey. Therefore, not a component of in-universe Star Wars lore, and subjective.

No, that's a separate quote. And from the publisher? That line of logic will lead you into thinking that any accolade is subjective because it's ultimately written by a human author.

Doesn't work that way. It's third-person and removed; it's not subjective in the slightest.

If you read the book, you'd also notice a connection between the most powerful quote and Plagueis' musings that he can now replicate any feat of power accomplished by any Sith in the past. It's clear that it's referring to a conventional sense of power as well as midi-chlorian manipulation.

They represent the OOU perspective of a character? Are you even listening to yourself? A character cannot be out-of-universe, lol - that's our universe. Character opinions are limited to in-universe material. I don't even know what character you think this is the opinion of.

We don't have a consensus because some people are just in denial. It's been confirmed that they're canon already. Just get over it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
If you read the book, you'd also notice a connection between the most powerful quote and Plagueis' musings that he can now replicate any feat of power accomplished by any Sith in the past. It's clear that it's referring to a conventional sense of power as well as midi-chlorian manipulation.
Darth Plagueis' musings do not translate into established facts. He believed that the possibilities with Midichlorian Manipulation are seemingly endless but his belief is fallible.

Originally posted by SunRazer
They represent the OOU perspective of a character? Are you even listening to yourself? A character cannot be out-of-universe, lol - that's our universe. Character opinions are limited to in-universe material. I don't even know what character you think this is the opinion of.
OOU perspective of a character - from the publisher of the novel.

Originally posted by SunRazer
We don't have a consensus because some people are just in denial. It's been confirmed that they're canon already. Just get over it.
We don't have a consensus for that accolade within the in-universe realities of the Star Wars lore because not a single piece of literature explicitly endorses it outside a publisher's statement on the back cover of a novel.

1. I'm not talking about midi-chlorian manipulation. I'm talking about general power; Plagueis believed that he now wielded enough power to replicate any showing of the Force from prior Sith. And no, his own opinion in of itself is not fact, but it's validated by the blurb.

2. The publisher is not a character, lmfao.

3. OOU comments are what takes precedence. In-universe comments are the ones that can be challenged because they're usually fallible. And no, it's been outright stated that the blurbs are CANON. There's no debate.

Christ LeG, every day a new excuse.

FYI: Through gaining ultimate power over life and death Plagueis became the most powerful Sith Lord. Correct.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. I'm not talking about midi-chlorian manipulation. I'm talking about general power; Plagueis believed that he now wielded enough power to replicate any showing of the Force from prior Sith. And no, his own opinion in of itself is not fact, but it's validated by the blurb.
Absolutely subjective in short.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. The publisher is not a character, lmfao.
Your point?

Originally posted by SunRazer
3. OOU comments are what takes precedence. In-universe comments are the ones that can be challenged because they're usually fallible. And no, it's been outright stated that the blurbs are CANON. There's no debate.
Absolutely wrong! You are setting a dangerous precedent with that kind of nonsense.

We have two kind of realities:-

In-universe - AUTHENTIC for the world of fiction

Out-of-universe - AUTHENTIC for (our) world

Don't spread misconceptions about the authenticity of in-universe writing formats here. Check my latest response to member Azronger here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=640514&pagenumber=10#post16138516

A blurb represents an OOU perspective of developments in the world of fiction (from the relevant publisher) and is utterly subjective unless endorsed within the in-universe body of literature of the relevant lore. This is my point.

If it was stated the novel that Darth Plagueis had become more powerful than any Sith (living or entity) that existed before, it would have been an authentic revelation for the lore in question. But this is not the case and we are left with a subjective assessment of a publisher for it.

LeG can I get the source on OOU material being subjective/non-canon? Or are you perhaps making this up. mmm

Furthermore, can you confirm that by this logic, RPG campaign guides, visual dictionaries, the Fact Files and all other sourcebooks without the historian conceit are also subjective?

Nihilus obviously.

Plagueis stomps

Originally posted by Beniboybling
LeG can I get the source on OOU material being subjective/non-canon? Or are you perhaps making this up. mmm

Furthermore, can you confirm that by this logic, RPG campaign guides, visual dictionaries, the Fact Files and all other sourcebooks without the historian conceit are also subjective?
Here is a good explanation: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/In-universe

That's a link to a fan-run wiki, I'm looking for a legitimate source thanks. Not that it supports any of your claims regardless.

I have a feeling member S__W___LeGenDz editted that wiki; for more information with good explanation, plz look at this: http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-33462184

Page has been updated with new ground realities, I suggest checking it out:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/In-universe

EDIT: Page was reedited by some troll, luckily I took a screenshot:

http://i.imgur.com/0sBO7uC.png

mmm

i also have an screenshot:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-67XCke_huZ0/WMaIVIM-svI/AAAAAAAACrU/k0eyCCiUDdUQMkgBLfVoMVrTdFAMoyKBgCL0B/h301/2017-03-13.png

That is really cheap.

Interesting revelation, Myth. I wonder if this should be considered an in-universe or out-of-universe source?

You both are strong with the TROLL.

It's not nice to call other people trolls.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You both are strong with the TROLL. How you coming along with those legitimate sources LeG?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Interesting revelation, Myth. I wonder if this should be considered an in-universe or out-of-universe source?

Does member S_W_Legend's butthole count as a universe? Cause in that case, in-universe.

Beni, waiting for your second ban

Not in this lawless country kek.

I'm starting to think Nihilus could actually win this

then stop thinking.

Lol

Yeah Nihilus can't.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The speed of thought isn't a very impressive benchmark when we're discussing the uppermost echelons of SW characters. Even RotJ Luke has moved within the speed of thought alone. Plagueis, whose speed decades before his prime was comparable to that of lightning, is vastly, vastly above that.

Regardless, Plagueis is factually more powerful than Nihilus. He can circumvent Nihilus' defensive powers.

Am I to believe the hierarchy is "Accolades > Feats" on this site?



I'm reluctant to accept that because it would be a greater feat than what I already see going on there. The ship is taking no structural damage of any kind during the bombardment from the Telos guns, and from the Dantooine academy (KOTOR 2) art, we see that Turbolasers atomize materials their bolts' hit. This would indicate Nihilus isn't just absorbing/dissipating energy, but rather binding and strengthening atoms against Turbolaser energy levels if I go with your "holding together, not shielding" view.

This would naturally extend to his personal application of the ability towards himself which would denote he would have the ability to bind his own atomical structure against Turbolaser levels of energy.

Not sure.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Plagueis, whose speed decades before his prime was comparable to that of lightning

lol ok

You don't have to be anywhere near lightning speed to replicate Plagueis showings in the woods, lmao.

Can people stop focusing on the Ravager and realise he was dragging the entire fleet around?

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
Am I to believe the hierarchy is "Accolades > Feats" on this site?

Something like that. Impressive feats are all well and good, but they can't really do much to circumvent a hard OOU statement.

Plagueis still ragdolls

Plagueis ragdolls an abberation that can telekinetically rip a fleet of ships out of the orbit of a gravity well?

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
Am I to believe the hierarchy is "Accolades > Feats" on this site?

I'm reluctant to accept that because it would be a greater feat than what I already see going on there. The ship is taking no structural damage of any kind during the bombardment from the Telos guns, and from the Dantooine academy (KOTOR 2) art, we see that Turbolasers atomize materials their bolts' hit. This would indicate Nihilus isn't just absorbing/dissipating energy, but rather binding and strengthening atoms against Turbolaser energy levels if I go with your "holding together, not shielding" view.

This would naturally extend to his personal application of the ability towards himself which would denote he would have the ability to bind his own atomical structure against Turbolaser levels of energy.

1. Yeah. Because feats are just so much more inconsistent.

2. That doesn't necessarily mean he's holding it steadfast against the turbolaser damage, just that even after the turbolasers inflicted their damage, Nihilus still kept the ship together. Ie. the turbolaser would've broken the ship down further on an atomic level, and Nihilus simply continued to hold it all together.

Doesn't mean it'll apply to himself since we need to factor in that Force users get injured and weakened when they're hit by attacks, which means a successful attack will diminish the potency of Nihilus' own powers.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Plagueis ragdolls an abberation that can telekinetically rip a fleet of ships out of the orbit of a gravity well?

No small feat in and of itself. A low estimate of the ship's weight would be around 10 Million Tons of mass, also a low-ball speed of 1 Meter per Second. If we consider a 50,000 meter distance from Malachor V's surface to outside "atmosphere" (half of earth's), and just saying the same gravitational pull of earth, it would take around 5,000,000,000 Joules of energy per second (10M Tons @ 1 Meter per second), or 5 Gigajoules per second. Overall it would take 250,000,000,000,000 Joules of energy to raise the Ravager from surface to space. That's roughly the same amount of energy as 4 Hiroshima bombs (63 TJ of energy each).

Not to mention:



I don't have to point it out, but I will (lol). In order for a ship to move itself forward, it must have enough thrust (or Force) to move its mass. Capital ships (the strongest of ships of the era) had multi-millions of tons worth of thrust as ships in sub-light speed accelerate well over 279 Kilometers per second. With that much power, they were still unable to overcome Malachor V's gravity field and were still pulled down to the planet.

Nihilus isn't just able to lift his ship, he is able to lift it out of a gravity well that had a gravitational pull stronger than the strongest ships at max power.

My above estimate should therefore be understood as an EXTREME low balling on my part.

On a side note (just a fan fun point of interest for me). If Nihilus can produce 5 GigaJoules of energy per second, he can also produce enough energy to throw a 10 pound object at 105,030 Miles per hour, or 154,045 Feet per second, or Mach 137.

Yeah, Nihilus is a beast. But calcs aren't really accepted on this site.

Damn, Miko is kicking ass. Incredible work. Big N is even more of a monster than I thought.

Number 2 under Valkorion imo.

I must have missed the evidence that the Ravager was without deflector shields, can someone provide it?

Yeah Nihilus is definitely underrated by a lot of people. He's top 5 sith for sure

Originally posted by Azronger
Yeah, Nihilus is a beast. But calcs aren't really accepted on this site.

They aren't accepted by those who are ignorant enough to not double check fake algebra. They give an invaluable insight to estimate magnitudes of power.

The SW-verse doesn't quite follow RL physics or chemistry, something Lucas and many EU writers noted.

Originally posted by MythLord
The SW-verse doesn't quite follow RL physics or chemistry, something Lucas and many EU writers noted.

Which can still be used to "give invaluable insight on magnitudes of power (multiples of 10)" to compare if certain feats are on the same ballpark or not.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Number 2 under Valkorion imo. Your opinion is factually incorrect.

Originally posted by MythLord
The SW-verse doesn't quite follow RL physics or chemistry, something Lucas and many EU writers noted.

I didn't even pay attention to the calcs, but previously I hadn't payed any attention to the storms on Malachor, merely the gravity well and MSG. For Nihilus to have lifted the Ravager etc off of Malachor is insane given the statements about how strong the storms are on top of the gravity.

Oh hey, I also found this:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/35291-more-story-info/

A neat collection of loading screen quotes.

None of this changes that plagueis is factually more powerful

I always figured most people dismissed that "most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived" accolade.

I'm pleasantly surprised to find I was wrong.

It's not even remotely relevant, just like DoE's isn't.

Wow.
Fvcking Karpyshyn. Guess that makes novel blurb irrelevant.

He personally stated that he doesn't write the Novel Blurbs, the Publishing Company, Del Rey Books, does it for marketing purposes. Del Rey Books also published Plagueis.

That's referring to Bane's era, not history, lol.

It was still fvcking wrong.

Because the Son was around? The Son has a quote retconning that.

It never makes a definitive statement of time period, that's a baseless assumption. It states he's the dark side's most powerful master, full stop.

It's present tense and in-universe, so that's not a baseless assumption at all, it's common sense that apparently isn't common to you.

Per that line of thinking, you could take any "most powerful" quote without specification to history and treat it as more powerful than anyone else in all of history. So per the Revan novel, Revan's now the most powerful Jedi ever, etc.

Otherwise DP's blurb wouldn't include the "who ever lived" part.

Indeed, that one part is future-predictive tense. Which is why it only refers to a distant possibility, not fact, and should be recognized as such.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's present tense and in-universe, so that's not a baseless assumption at all, it's common sense that apparently isn't common to you.

Per that line of thinking, you could take any "most powerful" quote without specification to history and treat it as more powerful than anyone else in all of history. So per the Revan novel, Revan's now the most powerful Jedi ever, etc.

Otherwise DP's blurb wouldn't include the "who ever lived" part.

You're attaching the present tense of the query to the statement that he is the dark side's most powerful Master. They are not one in the same. Incase you missed it, there are no other Masters by this point. Zannah herself is still very much the Apprentice.

It says dark side master, not Sith master. Indeed, Zannah's also a master of the dark side by this point, as evinced by her readiness to succeed Bane and all her feats and accolades.

'The dark side's most powerful Master' is interpretable in many ways. However primarily, we still have the fact that you can't attach the future tense present in the question to the statement itself.

A feats comparison with a number of preceding Sith doesn't go well for Plagueis at all.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's present tense and in-universe, so that's not a baseless assumption at all, it's common sense that apparently isn't common to you.

Per that line of thinking, you could take any "most powerful" quote without specification to history and treat it as more powerful than anyone else in all of history. So per the Revan novel, Revan's now the most powerful Jedi ever, etc.

Otherwise DP's blurb wouldn't include the "who ever lived" part. And ROTJ Palpatine > Valkorion:

It quickly became clear to Luke that this decrepit and seemingly defenseless old man was masterfully adept in the ways of the Dark Side of the Force. Indeed, as Vader had warned, the Emperor had become the Dark Side's most powerful expression.

But we knew that already.

Originally posted by AncientPower
A feats comparison with a number of preceding Sith doesn't go well for Plagueis at all. If only that were remotely true.

Originally posted by AncientPower
'The dark side's most powerful Master' is interpretable in many ways. However primarily, we still have the fact that you can't attach the future tense present in the question to the statement itself.

A feats comparison with a number of preceding Sith doesn't go well for Plagueis at all.

No idea what you're talking about. It's perfectly permissible to have a statement like "the most powerful dark side master who ever lived", just like we had "the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived" on the back of DP.

And bar Valkorion, nobody could really press Plagueis in a feats comparison, especially if we allow scaling.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I must have missed the evidence that the Ravager was without deflector shields, can someone provide it?

During the Mandalorian team's entrance on the Ravager a Mandalorian gives Canderous a rundown on the status of the ship.



Of course, Meetra's ship was able to land on Nihilus' ship during a full scale barrage from Telos Station's Turbolaser Defense guns.

As you can remember, Ahsoka and Anakin could not land on a Republic Capital Ship while their deflector shields were up:





Numbers are still fun, and can still give us a ballpark figure.

Volumetrics and such aside, the storms of Malachor V are stated to be able to pull down the strongest ships, ships which can produce enough thrust to move a capital ship over 300 KPH. Anyone familiar with physics on a simple level would note that the Gravity well of Malachor V had the power to easily overcome the maximum thrust of a capital ship that could move that vessel that fast.

In order to escape Malachor V, he would have to lift an object of mass with more force than a capital ship at full throttle.

Not sure what Canderous' comment is supposed to prove but the fact Meetra was able to land on the ship is more compelling.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not sure what Canderous' comment is supposed to prove but the fact Meetra was able to land on the ship is more compelling.

Shows shielding that only allows for minimal atmosphere. The fact that they allow ONLY a minimal atmosphere means they are not strong enough to retain a stronger atmosphere than the minimal requirement which for humans is around .3/bars (sea level atmosphere is 1 bar). This means any pressure over 4.35 PSI is not contained by the ship.

But yes, Meetra going through an open portion of the ship where the ablative plating used to be shows the lack of deflector shielding.

Both together establish the idea in my mind.

Sure, but even if we were to reach this conclusion, you've provided no basis for assuming Plagueis Force powers will prove less or even only as potent as turbolaser barrage.

Plagueis

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sure, but even if we where to reach this conclusion, you've provided no basis for assuming Plagueis Force powers will prove as or even less potent than a turbolaser barrage.

I know fan calcs don't count for much, but Turbolaser feats count for something.

Turbolaser bolts are known to rip through durasteel armored ships, and atomize pits in earth six foot wide by five foot deep, among other things, and Nihilus was negating these at over 5 per second.

Even if we assume it takes Meetra 10 minutes to get to Nihilus and the battle is still raging, you're looking at a possible 3,000 Turbolaser Bolts (over 10 minutes) negated while Nihilus stands there on his ship easily perfoming this feat.

This is ON TOP of his already phenomenal durability (armor and robes surviving the detonation of his ship).

And yes, his powers will be somewhat less focused being in Nihilus' aura.

Turbolaser bolts are also known to be absorbed by the shielding of an AT-AT, and yet Galen Marek downed one with Force lighting rather casually, and indeed was able to charge up a turbolaser gun to be dramatically more potent that it's original design allowed. Plagueis is far more powerful than Marek, and therefore the should be capable of exceeding the offensive output of a turbolaser battery in an excess of spades. In that respect, I don't really see the ability to withstand even thousands of turbolaser blasts to be of much relevance, when the power Plagueis can bring to bear will be inordinately more potent.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Turbolaser bolts are also known to be absorbed by the shielding of an AT-AT,

Hm? Source?