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1. Force
2. Sabers
3. All-Out

UnU shatters his mind

Ah; but can he drain planetz?

I wonder if Telepathy would even work on Nihilus.

Not sure. Drain and TP could both win this....
UnU rapes in 'sabers, tho.

What TP feats does Nihilus have?

None. Aside from being too dangerous for Traya to deal with all on her own.

'Thul has no answer for drain - Nihilus dust' him.

Nah; I'm pretty sure Raynar's out of Traya's league now.

Even though I was the one who initially voted for Nihilus.

Being above Traya isn't enough to best Nihilus, lmao.

'Thul has zero answers to drain --- meaning --- he will be lose a respectable portion of his Force reserves, the minute the battle begins. Let's also factor in that he is inferior in everything aside from TP, and 'sabers, with the latter not even mattering much here.

You can argue TP, but how well will that work on a Sith essence that is pure instinctual is another discussion entirely.

TP is unlikely to work on Nihilus.

Yeah, it may depend on TP; I could feasibly see Nihilus being dominated because he's a weak-willed vegetable, but it's also possible that it won't work at all.

Otherwise, this is a pretty good fight. Two novices who have a boatload of strength in the Force'n all. Never can tell where Nihilus is concerned, though, so I won't comment further.

Well, excessive use of Drain is supposed to subsume anyone's identity, so it's not exactly a mark against Nihilus.

Nihilus is a formidable telepath in his own right. He is able to push visions into other's heads, is cited as having notable Telepathic Influence and Telepathic Visions. Given his power level (multiple planets worth of power), UnuThul's TP isn't going to win the day here.

Additionally being in Nihilus' Aura, UnuThul isn't going to be able to draw on more Force Power than he goes into the fight with, and the sudden feeling is going to shock him long enough to be drained.

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
Nihilus is a formidable telepath in his own right. He is able to push visions into other's heads, is cited as having notable Telepathic Influence and Telepathic Visions. Given his power level (multiple planets worth of power), UnuThul's TP isn't going to win the day here.

Additionally being in Nihilus' Aura, UnuThul isn't going to be able to draw on more Force Power than he goes into the fight with, and the sudden feeling is going to shock him long enough to be drained.

"Multiple planets worth of power" - Care to back this up with anything? To my knowledge he only drained one planet at a time.

Originally posted by Azronger
"Multiple planets worth of power" - Care to back this up with anything? To my knowledge he only drained one planet at a time.

I'm not saying multiple at once, I'm saying multiple altogether.

Before he puts his spirit in his armor:



This is pre-Katarr, and that's plural possessive. He had already consumed at least two planets before Katarr, and if we stopped there, Katarr would make it 3 planets total.

In the game Kreia notes this while looking at the Holographic map on the Ebon Hawk with the Disciple:



As common sense, we know there are more than three points to a "web" in an ideological sense. A "string" could be 3-6. but a "web" indicates multiples beyond three.

His power grew with each additional planet he consumed.

There's also TCSWE claiming that Nihilus fed on numerous worlds that he blasted into ruin, although TCSWE does get some information on KotOR II drastically wrong (doesn't mean the entire source is invalid, though).

Darth Nihilus solidly

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
Nihilus is a formidable telepath in his own right. He is able to push visions into other's heads, is cited as having notable Telepathic Influence and Telepathic Visions. Given his power level (multiple planets worth of power), UnuThul's TP isn't going to win the day here.

Additionally being in Nihilus' Aura, UnuThul isn't going to be able to draw on more Force Power than he goes into the fight with, and the sudden feeling is going to shock him long enough to be drained.

Historically, draining a victim doesn't mean you add that victim's entire Force power to your own; far from it, in fact. So Nihilus draining several planets does not endow him with multiple planets' worth of power, especially given that there is no constant or set standard for how the Force power of an entire planet. For instance, the Devastation of Katarr no doubt offered far greater yields than Nihilus feeding off some random other planet.

Thul's TP is far more likely to fail than Nihilus' drain. So I'll side with the latter.

That said:Originally posted by SunRazer
Historically, draining a victim doesn't mean you add that victim's entire Force power to your own; far from it, in fact. So Nihilus draining several planets does not endow him with multiple planets' worth of power, especially given that there is no constant or set standard for how the Force power of an entire planet. For instance, the Devastation of Katarr no doubt offered far greater yields than Nihilus feeding off some random other planet. This is absolutely true.

Part of that, I think, can be attributed to drain being an exhausting power to use on it's own. That's why there's little point in Nihilus draining worlds without Force users; he yields little actual net gain from normal people.

I'm pretty sure one of the Council members says that the whole reason they gathered on Katarr is that planets were going silent on the rim. Nihilus was definitely eating multiple planets even before Katarr.

Originally posted by SunRazer
There's also TCSWE claiming that Nihilus fed on numerous worlds that he blasted into ruin, although TCSWE does get some information on KotOR II drastically wrong (doesn't mean the entire source is invalid, though).

Yes numerous worlds. I've seen the argument floating around that he used ships to orbital bombard planets, so I'd like to take a moment to address that if anyone's interested.



Further:



Had to get that off my chest!

Anyways...



Historically? Before Nihilus used his ability, Vitiate had already done so through a ritual on Nathema that effectively made him immortal. It cannot be argued that the consumption of life/force energy (as well as essence) has no fortifying effect on the one consuming.

The accolades for Nihilus show out what we would expect of a person who has consumed multiple planets. You know the usual suspects... (not verbatim) "Having power that cannot be put into words (Kreia)", "So powerful he doesn't see the universe as mortals do (Kreia)", "so powerful only stars and worlds are enough to warrant his attention (Visas)", "so powerful even Meetra and company are as dust motes in a storm, as insignificant as bodies orbiting Malachor V (Tobin)", etc.



Well NewGuy01, the drain itself seems to be a super efficient ability. Nihilus on deaths door, practically with a pinky across the threshold was able to subconsciously reach out and drain others around him. We don't ever see the drain itself weakening him or lessening his power (outside of Meetra and her polar opposite stuff). In fact his weakening has nothing to do with Force Reserves, but rather with his Hunger (which is fueled by the Force itself).

Was thinking along the lines of,

I'm very happy to see new blood.

Nihilus was blinding the largest section of the Republic from the view of the Force and setting up a dominion across said space, he'd evidently conquered hundreds of worlds, how many he actually destroyed is another question.

We also know that Kreia worries that Nihilus might grow so powerful that not even the Exile can destroy him.

"not even the Exile"

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg554/Kittezu/laugh.gif

As in not even her polar opposite Wound status would be relevant.

@Miko - We established that it's not done through technology. That's stated more than once in KotOR II. Although it was kind of fun spinning that argument around without people realizing that the evidence to disprove it was right in front of their noses.

Historically as in throughout SW continuity, and I'm referring to all kinds of Drain, really. I've never seen a scenario where the caster simply gets the full power of the victim on top of their own.

If that were how it worked, folks like Nihilus and Vitiate would be wayyy more powerful than they are. Just consider what Dorsk 81 was able to do with the combined powers of just a dozen Jedi.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Miko - We established that it's not done through technology. That's stated more than once in KotOR II. Although it was kind of fun spinning that argument around without people realizing that the evidence to disprove it was right in front of their noses.

Cool. I remember debating Anthony about it last year and he was debating a number of things about it. It compelled others to spread the heresy and I had to put fires out among a few friends because of it. Glad to see observant eyes realize the lies.



To be fair, there's never really a showing of his kind of drain in the SW continuity. In KOTOR 2 it is stated to be the greatest of the Sith Teachings:



Of course we already know its above normal drain, I don't see why it wouldn't have more powerful of an effect. Yet I do have to point out, this form of drain exceeds what normal drains do. Allow me to go back to KOTOR 1 for a moment.

As we all know, Force users who die, become powerful enough (and die), or get near enough to death can become one with the Force. This is where the "soul" passes from the living force to the Cosmic force, powering it. This concept is carried in KOTOR 1:



During the final battle of KOTOR 1 between Malak and Revan we see that the Star Forge has specialized containment devices that stop Force users from becoming one with the Force, allowing Malak to continue to feed off their souls long after they should have:



Eventually though their soul's energy can be depleted and you see their bodies turned to cracked husks when you try to activate them:



He consumes their life and force energy, and then the energy within their very *souls* until they are completely consumed. BUT if they *are* released, their souls can become "one with the Force":



As you see from what I've shared, Force Users still have power beyond the moment when they should have become one with the Force. This in summary, is the power of their "souls". This concept extends elsewhere such as in regard to Sith Spirits / Force Ghosts and their energy reserves that when used up stop them from manifesting in the real world again.

So what does all of this have to do with the drain dynamic we see of Nihilus? As noted, those within Nihilus' aura are Sundered from the Force:



This sundering isn't a severing like Force Sever, it is a Wound type severing (a Dead Spot/Void in the Force area) that still allows Force Users to use what Force Reserves they bring with them, but it does not allow them to draw from, or be influenced by, the Force in the Galaxy. Which on a side note, is why the Wounds helped Jedi turn to the Dark Side. On Malachor V, the planetary Wound pushed away the Force's influence and all that the Jedi were exposed to was the Dark Side "Nexus" of the Trayus Core, meaning all they had influencing them was the Dark Side itself with no interference from the Light Side. This is also why his "Temptation" ability is so much more powerful than others and can more easily draw others to the dark side, and to him.

I'm rambling, sorry.

Anyways when Nihilus severs the being's connection to Life Energy, and the Force, the soul remains cut off. This is what Kreia references as "death" (something being cut off from the Force's flow, influence, or connection):



As we know, Meetra is one who is severed from the Force in a similar sense yet what Nihilus senses of her does not come from a living thing:



As is stated of her:



Back to Nihilus, we know his Drain type has the effect of severing the subject from the Force itself causing even the corpse to be an absence in the Force as demonstrated by Kreia's usage of the Drain:



So what does all that have to do with Nihilus? As stated, Nihilus cuts off the victim from the Force, which denies them the ability of becoming One with the Force. Kreia states he not only feeds on the Force Energy and Life Energy of his targets, but ALSO what remains after it is severed from the Force, the Soul.

At this point it should be understood that this drain is radically different than normal Drain (which is why I am confused as to why it is being compared to it). In fact in response to what I quoted of you, he isn't just getting their Force Reserves, and Life Energy upon draining them, he is also getting the energy of their "Soul" which empowers the Cosmic Force itself. This goes BEYOND devouring 100% of remaining Life/Force Energy, it goes well into the power of their very existence.

Not sure why you're differentiating the force, life force, and the soul. It's all the same thing. The living force is life energy, and when your body dies that energy is what returns to the cosmic force.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Was thinking along the lines of,


Ah I see what you mean. Maintaining the full time aura sapping his strength. The aura itself is efficient, and Nihilus always has enough bodies around to nullify the weakening effect it would have on him using it.

The weakness doesn't come from a lack of power, it comes from the Weakness of not having his hunger abated:



Something that's not quite understood about Nihilus out there is:

1.) The Force itself fuels his hunger:



2.) The HUNGER is a POWER SOURCE:



3.) The power of this hunger is what gave him the power to transfer his spirit from his body to his armor:



4.) The dynamic between his hunger and the Force is that the more powerful he is in the Force, the more it is present with him (from consuming others), the greater his hunger is, and the greater the power from that hunger becomes. He gains more per drain than just additional Force Reserves, the power of his hunger increases as well. This is why I say it is an uber efficient power.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not sure why you're differentiating the force, life force, and the soul. It's all the same thing. The living force is life energy, and when your body dies that energy is what returns to the cosmic force.

Because one can have their Force Connections severed, and still have Life Energy. Cutting someone off from Force Energy does not kill them, not even in Meetra's case which is the most severe case of Sever Force ever seen in a STILL living being.

There is a difference in the connections here.

Nice work, Miko.

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
Because one can have their Force Connections severed, and still have Life Energy.

I recommend you read Traitor if you haven't already, as it addresses this rather nicely. To be completely severed from the Force is indeed to die; the Force is life, therefore life can't exist without the Force. Lliving beings who have been force-severed still possess some sort of connection to it, just on a lower frequency.

Ah, here are a couple relevant quotes from the novel.

I heard the writer of the vong novels said that the force rejected the vong because of the atrocities they committed

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I recommend you read Traitor if you haven't already, as it addresses this rather nicely. To be completely severed from the Force is indeed to die; the Force is life, therefore life can't exist without the Force. Lliving beings who have been force-severed still possess some sort of connection to it, just on a lower frequency.

KOTOR 2 is in fact 2 years post "New Jedi Order: Traitor".

It actually retcons a few things, even in my mind, certain aspects of the Vong. But that last part aside, it does indeed retcon the idea that a being can exist outside of the Force, disconnected from the Force, as a dead spot, a blank, a hole in the Force as we see with Nihilus and Meetra - and not die.

I'm not so convinced. The Exile's situation doesn't strike me as incompatible with Traitor's descriptions at all; while she's described by other Force users as a dead spot in the Force (much like the Vong,) she's still alive and is still able to form connections to others through the Force, not at all unlike Jacen. The only inconsistent themes would come from Traya's take on the matter, which could well be mistaken.

Although, I could be missing something; I can't claim to be an expert on KOTOR II, as my distaste for it has quelled my interest in actually playing through a half-finished game to better understand it.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I'm not so convinced. The Exile's situation doesn't strike me as incompatible with Traitor's descriptions at all; while she's described by other Force users as a dead spot in the Force (much like the Vong,) she's still alive and is still able to form connections to others through the Force, not at all unlike Jacen. The only inconsistent themes would come from Traya's take on the matter, which could well be mistaken.

Although, I could be missing something; I can't claim to be an expert on KOTOR II, as my distaste for it has quelled my interest in actually playing through a half-finished game to better understand it.

Well first of all the Traitor book never had this:



Normal Sever Force does not do this. Even Ulic did not become a Wound.

You're really comparing apples to oranges here broski.

Even the effects of being a wound in this state are different than in the Traitor books. Wounds in KOTOR 2 draw people's Life essence to themselves, leeching on others. The Vong didn't do this, nor did anyone else before.

Where'd you debate prior to KMC, Miko? You seem familiar.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Where'd you debate prior to KMC, Miko? You seem familiar.

Only ever been in Facebook debate rooms, which is where we ran into each other to begin with. "Star Wars Epic Battles"

Ah yeah. I'll come back there someday, just hard to keep up with three forums at once during the school year.

I'm not seeing the connection here. The fact that the characters are completely severed from the Force doesn't mean Nihilus gets access to their full powers on top of his own.

Indeed, we know just how devastatingly powerful a small group of Force users can be, never mind a whole planet's worth of them. That would be a degree of power infinitely beyond the showings of any character in the mythos.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm not seeing the connection here. The fact that the characters are completely severed from the Force doesn't mean Nihilus gets access to their full powers on top of his own.

He feeds on their life and force energy, and then on their stranded souls.

We've already seen Vitiate add the power and life force of his victims onto his own. While similar to Nihilus' drain, the metabolized effect is different (i.e. the Hunger Power).

Vitiate adds some of his victims' power to his own power, but not 100% of his victims' powers either. Again, thousands of Sith Lords would constitute a level of power infinitely beyond that shown by Vitiate.