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Fight takes place in the Dark Council Chambers on Korriban.

1. Sabers

2. Force

3. All-out

Traya should sweep.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Traya should sweep.

up

Both are trash

Marr couldn't even saberthrow valk, trays could saberthrow

Traya probably loses sabers.

Darth Marr might blitz. He is way too fast and his dueling skills are stated to be second to none.

In the end, this may come down to judgement and timing.

Legend on a troll tonight.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Traya should sweep.

I'm surprised you'd make such a thread Nova.

Think this one was more for polling purposes.

Also, lol @ Marr blitzing. His speed feats aren't better than Traya's. Although I suppose that will fall on deaf ears anyway.

>Polling purposes
>No actual poll

Your retirement can't come soon enough.

Traya sweeps.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
>Polling purposes
>No actual poll

Your retirement can't come soon enough.

I'm a lazy ****er and I just wanna to see what people said. Besides, I don't need no dickhead ambiguously voting for X. I wanna know whose opinions are which.

And you can **** off, youngster.

Traya oneshots.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Traya oneshots.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Think this one was more for polling purposes.

Also, lol @ Marr blitzing. His speed feats aren't better than Traya's. Although I suppose that will fall on deaf ears anyway.
Really? When has Darth Traya moved so fast that another well-trained Force-user was not able to track her move?

Darth Marr has the speed and dueling ability to eliminate Darth Traya before she can bring her powers to bear against him. Accept it, son.

When she effortlessly dodged all of Brianna's strikes without appearing to move to her.

And unlike Lachris, Brianna actually has speed/combat feats, and has contended with some of the most skilled Force wielders in the mythos.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Traya oneshots.

Originally posted by SunRazer


and has contended with some of the most skilled Force wielders in the mythos.

Originally posted by SunRazer
When she effortlessly dodged all of Brianna's strikes without appearing to move to her.

When that happened?

In the script.

@Carthage - Yeah, pretty laughable on the feats-only basis you use but a practitioner of Juyo is one of the most skilled Force wielders.

Originally posted by SunRazer
In the script.

Unless there are more information I don't know about, there's no such thing in the script. This feat also happens on a nexus.

Yeah, she "barely moves" but manages to dodge all of the attacks and literally gets bored doing it. I'd say that's a blitz-tier difference.

And Brianna can be dark-sided and it'll still happen. After all, Marr's feat also happens on a DS nexus, so there's literally no reason to excuse one feat but keep the other.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, she "barely moves" but manages to dodge all of the attacks and literally gets bored doing it. I'd say that's a blitz-tier difference.

It's a blitz tier but your affirmation that Brianna couldn't even see Traya moving doesn't have support in the script.



Marr and Lachris are both dark side users in the storyline, Surik and her companions are canonicaly light sided characters.

1. That's not what I said. I said she barely appears to move, which is in the script. In either case, if it's a blitz-tier difference then we're in agreement. We don't need to debate the semantics; Traya is fully capable of keeping up, or rather matching, Marr's speed.

2. Doesn't matter what's canon; it only matters what's possible. Traya is clearly just too fast for Brianna, LS or DS.

Razer, an issue I have with using dark side options:
Wouldn't using the dark side boost boost your abilities?

As in, does Brianna get stronger? Presumably, yeah.

But that just makes it more impressive for Kreia... the point I'm trying to make is that the nexus doesn't matter because this is an event that happens regardless of alignment. It's clearly meant to be a case of Kreia simply outclassing Brianna, not the environment favouring one or the other.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. That's not what I said.





Marr actually semmed to disappear before Lachris' eyes, to the point she tried to detect his presence. While featless, her accolades, among others includes: "a powerful Sith Lord", "she's never failed in war" and "she's a warrior at heart". The last two accolades implies a certain degree of combat proficiency. I can live with your admission of parity, though.



There's a difference in what's canon and what's used for gameplay and entertainment purposes, like the DS playthrough but, in general, I agree with you.

1. Would it be more apt to say "without appearing to move to us"?

2. Yeah, none of that even puts her on par with Atris, never mind Brianna (who matched her before growing stronger).

3. That's not gameplay. It's a cutscene that happens regardless of alignment; ergo, Kreia's just that much better than her.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Would it be more apt to say "without appearing to move to us"?

Traya clearly moves to us. You should just admit you overexaggerated a bit. :P



I'm an Atris wanker myself, so I agree with you. Matched more or less, 'cause she got one-shotted by her lightning.



What I'm saying is that when you have a definite canon storyline for KotOR, the DS playthrough serves only the purpose to provide entertainment. You can say that it represent an alternate possibility and I'm going to agree with you but I don't consider the events that happens on it's playthrough to have the same importance as the canon one.

Originally posted by SunRazer
As in, does Brianna get stronger? Presumably, yeah.

But that just makes it more impressive for Kreia... the point I'm trying to make is that the nexus doesn't matter because this is an event that happens regardless of alignment. It's clearly meant to be a case of Kreia simply outclassing Brianna, not the environment favouring one or the other.
Which is fine in this specific scenario but can we same for all the other ds feats for canonically light side characters

1. Fair enough. "Barely moved", rather than "without moving".

2. Matched in the duel.

3. That's because it's not canon. Doesn't mean it's an inaccurate portrayal of what would happen if the events transpired as in the DS storyline.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Traya should sweep.

Originally posted by SunRazer
When she effortlessly dodged all of Brianna's strikes without appearing to move to her.

And unlike Lachris, Brianna actually has speed/combat feats, and has contended with some of the most skilled Force wielders in the mythos.
Brianna > Darth Lachris? Fantastic.

Darth Lachris was among the strongest Sith of her time, with history of great success in the battlefield until she met the Emperor's Wrath.

Brianna is just a glorified Echani trainee of little consequence to the story of KoTOR II and the war of her time.

lol If you think Lachris would matter in an era with the likes of Nihilus, the Exile, Traya etc. then you're sadly mistaken. If not, then there was no point in bringing up Brianna's relative inconsequentiality to her time.

Atris was more skilled than Kavar, who himself was a skilled master of Forms IV-VII, one of the greatest warriors of his age, and factually one of the most skilled Force wielders. This is before Atris studies from dozens of Sith holocrons whose teachings gave Kreia the insight necessary to judge Tulak Hord's skills to be far beyond those of anybody in her own time. And Brianna stalemates Atris, then gets stronger before confronting Traya.

Lachris has no feats and her only accolade of note is an ambiguous "having never failed in war". But we don't know who she's gone up against; certainly she isn't known to have fought anybody of note. So nothing on par with Brianna here in the slightest, who has contended with some of the factual best in the mythos. And Lachris dies to the Barsen'thor, not the Wrath.

Quote for Lachris being one of the strongest Sith of her time?

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. Yeah, none of that even puts her on par with Atris, never mind Brianna (who matched her before growing stronger).
Jedi Master Atris = Emperor's Wrath now?

Never mind the fact Meetra Surik handed Atris's @ss back to her, in a duel after that.

This is Lachris, not the Wrath. On what basis is Lachris a match for the Wrath? Certainly nothing mentioned in the post that I was responding to, which is why I said "none of that puts her on par with Atris".

What does Surik have to do with anything? She'd beat Lachris easily as well.

Your silly quizzical faces are insubstantial substitutes for genuine arguments. Show a few actual points, or piss off.

Originally posted by SunRazer
This is Lachris, not the Wrath. On what basis is Lachris a match for the Wrath? Certainly nothing mentioned in the post that I was responding to, which is why I said "none of that puts her on par with Atris".

What does Surik have to do with anything? She'd beat Lachris easily as well.

Your silly quizzical faces are insubstantial substitutes for genuine arguments. Show a few actual points, or piss off.
Riiiiiiiight.

1. Literally no accolades above Kavar there. I know you won't believe me so I'll direct you to a respect thread: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/vrook-kavar-and-zez-kai-ell-respect-thread/97853/

2. In the Prima Guide. Just read this: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/atris-respect-thread/97873/

3. lol @ pretending that each member of the Dark Council is equally powerful. But I mean, Lachris showed she wasn't even close to being a match for a member of the Dark Council either. A hindered Meetra at least briefly kept up with an amped Nyriss; Lachris was insta-stomped by Marr on even ground. Your logic is not only spectacularly flawed but also turned out to be a spectacular fail.

4. Who are "these guys"? Obviously I wouldn't put Atris on par with Marr, but above Lachris, whom Marr one-shotted? Nothing wrong with that at all. The only evidence you've managed to procure for Lachris are ones that don't even match Kavar. I mean, seriously, you could ascribe that stuff to a padawan. And the absence of showings on her part hasn't escaped me either.

Let's be honest; your argument is literally just a veiled version of "Lachris is from TOR, and Atris/Brianna from KotOR II; obviously Lachris is stronger cuz I LIKE TOR MORE!!!!".

Lachris is a smart and powerful warruir, clearly stronger than someone who possesses actual feats.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Riiiiiiiight.

An argument of unprecedented levels there. So unprecedented that it makes you concede instantly.

Traya would snap her neck with a thought. haermm

What if Lachris expects a scheme behind Traya's attack with her embittered understanding of political necessity? A winning combination there.

True, how will Traya's actual showings and accomplishments compare.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lachris is a smart and powerful warruir, clearly stronger than someone who possesses actual feats.
Look who is talking.

That is clearly not my argument.

https://youtu.be/cc3No8790Q0?t=1551

I'll contemplate responding tomorrow. But I'm considering just giving up. All you're doing is running around calling KotOR II characters "overglorified mooks" and playing down everything they have when you can't produce anything to compare for Lachris, and then cite people way above Lachris as people that would beat the KotOR II characters. Like, there's no actual argument anywhere. How on earth does citing people above Lachris do anything to help Lachris' case? And then you want to think that Surik wasn't hindered at all on Dromund Kaas. Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Look who is talking.

That is clearly not my argument. Quite, as Nova points out you don't have one.

Just out of curiousity, Legend, what's your IQ?

Originally posted by SunRazer
https://youtu.be/cc3No8790Q0?t=1551

I'll contemplate responding tomorrow. But I'm considering just giving up. All you're doing is running around calling KotOR II characters "overglorified mooks" and playing down everything they have when you can't produce anything to compare for Lachris, and then cite people way above Lachris as people that would beat the KotOR II characters. Like, there's no actual argument anywhere. How on earth does citing people above Lachris do anything to help Lachris' case? And then you want to think that Surik wasn't hindered at all on Dromund Kaas. Jesus Christ.
You attempted to project Brianna Darth Lachris by virtue of her performance against Jedi Master Atris in single combat and boasted that the latter's hype doesn't circumvent it. Your argument is flawed and rests upon a set of AMBIGUITIES.

1. Kavar hype to his name but he was literally FODDER to a powerful Sith Lord (in Darth Traya) in single combat. What should I make of this?

2. Atris's superiority over Kavar doesn't tells us much about them either because Kavar is not renowned for his dueling skills in the first place. For all we know, Darth Traya might stomp Atris in a duel too.

3. Brianna being able to contend with Atris for a short while - doesn't tells us much about both of them in the first place even when the latter is hyped as a master swordsman independently. Quantifiably, both are firmly below Surik and FODDER to Darth Traya. Kavar changes nothing in this case.

It is really stupid to argue (Brianna > Darth Lachris) in the first place. You are trying to take advantage of ambiguity in the story of Darth Lachris to cheapen her.

HERE is a PERSPECTIVE that should have crossed your MIND:

1. You do not become a Sith in the Empire easily; you need to be really strong or cunning in order to succeed in the trials. Many perish in these trials.

2. You not only passed the trials but you were good enough to draw attention of Darth Marr - one of the greatest members of the Dark Council - and he considered you for apprenticeship. What does this tells us? That you might be a standout among the graduates.

3. Darth Marr hones your already formidable skills to perfection with passage of time and you eventually earn the title of DARTH (the highest rank you can achieve in the Empire; evidence of your excellence in strength and skill-set). At one point, he decides to test your skills and you turn out to be no match for him, but this doesn't takes away from your formidable history (Few would have the strength to contend with Darth Marr anyways, don't you think?). Nonetheless, you partake in the battlefield and prove your mettle there; any better way to do that? You might have routed entire contingents of Republic forces and killed a number of well-trained Jedi and such.

4. One fine day, you meet your match in Barsen'thor III whose powers are extraordinary and who is also renowned for stopping one of the greatest threats to the galaxy earlier. Your loss cannot be held against you in this case because this guy would humiliate like 99% of individuals in single combat.

Now, what we can tell about Darth Lachris? That she was among the standouts of her time and the benchmark to defeat her is Darth Marr (among Sith) and/or Barsen'thor III (among Jedi). Both of them are stupendously powerful individuals. Atris, Kavar and Brianna are like kids in comparison to them.

Not much, but I wouldn't boast about Brianna being on the same TIER as Darth Lachris. Utterly idiotic.

Originally posted by Azronger
Just out of curiousity, Legend, what's your IQ?
Good enough for PhD studies, KID.

I have a question for you though? What have you accomplished in life?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Good enough for PhD studies, KID.

I have a question for you though? What have you accomplished in life?

So, around 80, then. I suspected as much.

My accomplishments in life include offering aid to those in need and being a beacon of happiness for my friends and family. Nothing too grandiose but still relevant on the small scale

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Brianna > Darth Lachris? Fantastic.

Darth Lachris was among the strongest Sith of her time, with history of great success in the battlefield until she met the Emperor's Wrath.

Brianna is just a glorified Echani trainee of little consequence to the story of KoTOR II and the war of her time. Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Jedi Master Atris = Emperor's Wrath now?

Never mind the fact Meetra Surik handed Atris's @ss back to her, in a duel after that.

D.... Do you not know the plot of SWTOR at all?

There's still no argument, lmfao. It's literally just "the people who have beaten Barsen'thor (including one who's one-shotted/blitzed her) are above the names you mentioned. And Lachris is good for her time, so obviously she's stronger than Brianna".

Oh, I forgot the pretense that Lachris would be anything but fodder to Traya, hence why the Masters being fodder to her was supposed to be something bad on their part or something instead of it being a good feat for Traya. Classic example of having a predetermined notion of a character's abilities and simply scaling everyone down from that instead of moving the character up accordingly.

I mean, let's review LeG's "argument" here:

1. She passed the trials.

2. She became a Darth.

3. She lost to the Barsen'thor and Marr, and since they're so good that obviously means she's good also.

I'm kind of at a loss as to how you can spin this into something impressive for her. The first two are things that thousands of Sith have managed, and the last isn't a ****ing feat. Jesus Christ.

Yeah, and then there's her being "a powerful Sith Lord". Something each of the Sith on Malachor V in K2 could've claimed. Seriously, with a few minutes of research I managed to find a better accolade for Lachris (and perhaps the only one that isn't painfully generic).

I'm not deeply knowledgable of either combatant beyond appearances in kotor2 and swtor but i would give sabers to marr, force to traya and overall marr. My reason being based on former cannon traya was taken down by meetra surik (the exile) who i believe was cannonly more of a duelist.

Marr

dies

Traya