Scathan vs. Great Evil Beast

Enzeru

Originally posted by MrMind

GEB=Presence, aka Supreme Being
you can add in Protege on Scathan side and GEB still wins

Who would be the equivalent of the Presence / Great Evil Beast in Marvel comics? It can't be The One Above All, because The One Above All stomps Presence / Great Evil Beast / Michael / Luficer / Over-Monitor and so on at the same time. The One Above All has the advantage of being a metatextual entity (writer), while there are outside forces even above the Presence (the writers).

Who is THE SECOND in command in the Marvel universe? Back in the day the general idea was that it was Living Tribunal, until Living Tribunal got outworked by Protege and saved by Scathan. (Not counting Pre Retcon Beyonder and Pre Retcon Molecule Man.) So Scathan ranks quite highly on the cosmic tier list.

I've tried keeping up with the Marvel cosmic hierarchy from the last decade. This might be super wrong now, but in my mind the top three in the entire Marvel universe are:

1. The One Above All
2. Fulcrum / Tiamut, the Dreaming Celestial
3. Scathan

I don't know where to place the Beyonders (Ivory Kings). Three of them killed the Living Tribunal. Would one of them been able to replicate that feat? I don't know. Would the three of them be able to defeat Scathan? I don't know. Would one of them be able to defeat Scathan? I kinda don't think so.

Then the question becomes how far above Scathan are Fulcrum and Tiamut?
Are the Presence and the GEB on the same level as Fulcrum and Tiamut? Or are they above Fulcrum and Tiamut?
I would say no matter how you view it, they should be above Scathan and beat him by the same margin Fulcrum / Tiamut would beat him.

Take all of this with a grain of salt though.

MrMind

Originally posted by Enzeru
The One Above All stomps Presence / Great Evil Beast / Michael / Luficer / Over-Monitor and so on at the same time. The One Above All has the advantage of being a metatextual entity (writer), while there are outside forces even above the Presence (the writers).

this right there is why I love marvel fan's willing ignorant

I debated this topic 10 years ago and here we go again...sigh...

in dc, grant morrison appeared as a character in animal man as the writer,http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Grant_Morrison_(New_Earth)
if you want to go that route, TOAA=Grant Morrison laughing

I really don't know which idiot started the writer>the supreme being of a company trend. Please someone explain to me how does being the writer make TOAA more powerful than Presence

from in comic in universe perspective, omnipotent is omnipotent, Presence and TOAA are both omnipotent. unless you want to say one omnipotent> the other, there aren't any arguments to be made. fact is dc has multiple supreme beings Marvel only has one,(TOAA=Presence=GEB, Over Moniter is the representation of blank page ) so no TOAA ain't stomping anyone, in fact TOAA get stomped.

Originally posted by Enzeru

Take all of this with a grain of salt though.

oh trust me I do. any one supreme being> another is just company bias, just like you favor marvel or me favor dc. it gets tiresome.

laughing out loud

Enzeru

Originally posted by MrMind

this right there is why I love marvel fan's willing ignorant

That is unnecessary.

Originally posted by MrMind

I really don't know which idiot started the writer>the supreme being of a company trend. Please someone explain to me how does being the writer make TOAA more powerful than Presence

The One Above All created the Presence.

https://i.imgur.com/zyBhbJ1.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/zyBhbJ1.jpg

Originally posted by MrMind

from in comic in universe perspective, omnipotent is omnipotent, Presence and TOAA are both omnipotent. unless you want to say one omnipotent > the other, there aren't any arguments to be made.

I never said that the Presence isn't omnipotent. In his respective universe he is omnipotent. I just said, that The One Above All has the massive advantage of being a metatextual entity. The One Above All is the avatar of the writer. The Presence is a character, created by the writer.

Your Grant Morrison example doesn't hold up at all. Grant Morrison was kinda mainly there for the Animal Man story, where The One Above All reigns supreme over the entire Marvel omniverse. Grant Morrison also kinda died in the comics, if I'm not all too wrong. The One Above All on the other hand is still alive and kicking.

xJLxKing

Originally posted by Enzeru
Who would be the equivalent of the Presence / Great Evil Beast in Marvel comics? It can't be The One Above All, because The One Above All stomps Presence / Great Evil Beast / Michael / Luficer / Over-Monitor and so on at the same time. The One Above All has the advantage of being a metatextual entity (writer), while there are outside forces even above the Presence (the writers).

Who is THE SECOND in command in the Marvel universe? Back in the day the general idea was that it was Living Tribunal, until Living Tribunal got outworked by Protege and saved by Scathan. (Not counting Pre Retcon Beyonder and Pre Retcon Molecule Man.) So Scathan ranks quite highly on the cosmic tier list.

I've tried keeping up with the Marvel cosmic hierarchy from the last decade. This might be super wrong now, but in my mind the top three in the entire Marvel universe are:

1. The One Above All
2. Fulcrum / Tiamut, the Dreaming Celestial
3. Scathan

I don't know where to place the Beyonders (Ivory Kings). Three of them killed the Living Tribunal. Would one of them been able to replicate that feat? I don't know. Would the three of them be able to defeat Scathan? I don't know. Would one of them be able to defeat Scathan? I kinda don't think so.

Then the question becomes how far above Scathan are Fulcrum and Tiamut?
Are the Presence and the GEB on the same level as Fulcrum and Tiamut? Or are they above Fulcrum and Tiamut?
I would say no matter how you view it, they should be above Scathan and beat him by the same margin Fulcrum / Tiamut would beat him.

Take all of this with a grain of salt though.
The over-monitor is a representation of a writer.

DC just like to represent the writer/supreme being slightly differently.

MrMind

Originally posted by Enzeru

The One Above All created the Presence.

Presence is from marvel now?

https://media.giphy.com/media/10Vl1YhRCQzQoU/giphy.gif

you still haven't explain to me how does being the writer avatar a massive advantage that help TOAA win the fight. because if being the writer meaning above all then TOAA stalemate http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/The_Writer
take it for a grain of salt, that's how vsbattles listed, TOAA is in the same tier as the Writer. If you are in the opinion of being the avatar of the writer> all, then TOAA=The Writer, if you are in the opinion of omnipotent>all, then TOAA=The Presence, either or, can't have your cake and eat it too
since TOAA and Writer even each other out
Marvel still has very few answer for the Presence, GEB, Elaine Belloc, Over Monitor, The Empty Hand, Lucifer & Michael, Mxy etc laughing

One Big Mob

Does DC (ignoring Vertigo) even have an omnipotent God ever since Morrison ****ed with the mythos?

I know they had the Dog for a bit, but is that it?

One Big Mob

Originally posted by MrMind
Marvel still has very few answer for the Presence, GEB, Elaine Belloc, Over Monitor, The Empty Hand, Lucifer & Michael, Mxy etc laughing

I don't really care about this stupid "my omnipotent is better than yours" sort of fanwank, but why would they need it?

In Marvel no one is near TOAA at all. He is unquestionably omnipotent, omniscience, and omnipresent. He has no equal and he has no limits.

Why would you need a bunch of beings lower than that to make up for what you perceive to be a numbers disadvantage? Look at how much Marvel sucks because it actually portrayed a fully omnipotent God with no equals or limits! Come on guy.

That being said, **** Scathan. His shit was gay and it was implied he was using ordinary Celestial tech to cage Protege.

MrMind

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Does DC (ignoring Vertigo) even have an omnipotent God ever since Morrison ****ed with the mythos?

I know they had the Dog for a bit, but is that it?

Presence manisfest himself as the dog in phantom stranger, g o d backwards d o g. he show up everytime looking different but same character. just like TOAA looking different when talking to spiderman, mr fantastic, or even show up as a she-male(above all others) talking to warlock and thanos. Presene probably has like the same amount of appearences in dc compare to TOAA in marvel too

Enzeru

Originally posted by xJLxKing

The over-monitor is a representation of a writer.

He isn't.

Originally posted by MrMind

Presence is from marvel now?

*rolleyes* Dude, stop.

Originally posted by MrMind

you still haven't explain to me how does being the writer avatar a massive advantage that help TOAA win the fight. because if being the writer meaning above all then TOAA stalemate http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/The_Writer

take it for a grain of salt, that's how vsbattles listed, TOAA is in the same tier as the Writer. If you are in the opinion of being the avatar of the writer> all, then TOAA=The Writer, if you are in the opinion of omnipotent>all, then TOAA=The Presence, either or, can't have your cake and eat it too
since TOAA and Writer even each other out
Marvel still has very few answer for the Presence, GEB, Elaine Belloc, Over Monitor, The Empty Hand, Lucifer & Michael, Mxy etc laughing

You aren't making any sense.
There are levels to everything. I can know karate, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm on the same level as a karate master.

There are other fictional universes, where the writer puts themself in their own story. If JK Rowling put herself in the Harry Potter universe as The Writer / The God, would she be as powerful as The One Above All? Of course not, because the Harry Potter universe consists out of ONE universe, where Marvel consists out of an omniverse, which contains countless multiverses, which contain countless universes. And The One Above All is the writer and supreme ruler of that omniverse.

The Presence doesn't hold up in that regard, because he is the most powerful character in the DC omniverse. But he is still a character, who was created by outside forces (writers).

The Writer (Grant Morrison) you're talking about had become a character himself once he wrote himself into the story:

https://i.imgur.com/fpqll9I.jpg

The One Above All however is an ever shifting conceptual idea, that continues to persist and exist. If you think that The One Above All and the Writer are comparable, then it's you who should reconsider his biases towards one of the big two.

MrMind

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I don't really care about this stupid "my omnipotent is better than yours" sort of fanwank, but why would they need it?

In Marvel no one is near TOAA at all. He is unquestionably omnipotent, omniscience, and omnipresent. He has no equal and he has no limits.

Why would you need a bunch of beings lower than that to make up for what you perceive to be a numbers disadvantage? Look at how much Marvel sucks because it actually portrayed a fully omnipotent God with no equals or limits! Come on guy.

I would not even get into this if Enzeru didn't say TOAA stomps Presence GEB Over Monitor all together at the same time. he started the "my omnipotent is better than yours" not me. I think both companies Supreme Beings are equal.

MrMind

Originally posted by Enzeru

The Writer (Grant Morrison) you're talking about had become a character himself once he wrote himself into the story:

TOAA had become a character himself once he wrote himself into a story
TOAA is a character, yes or no?

you still haven't answer me how does being the writer avatar help TOAA win a forum fight

let me guess, he gonna write Presence out of existence right? laughing

I think I am done with this discussion now sick

Enzeru

Originally posted by MrMind

TOAA had become a character himself once he wrote himself into a story
TOAA is a character, yes or no?

The One Above All is NOT a character. He is a metatextual concept, unlike all the other Supreme Beings of their respective universes.

DC Supreme Being: The Presence / The Great Evil Beast
IMAGE Supreme Being: Man Of Miracles AKA Mother Of Existence
MARVEL Supreme Being: Fulcrum / Tiamut, the Dreaming Celestial

The One Above All stomps all of those Supreme Beings. This isn't about omnipotence anymore. This is about the idea behind one of these concepts being on a whole another level. All the Supreme Beings in the universes are the most powerful characters in their respectable universe. The One Above All on the other hand, just like his name literally states it, is a completely different animal.

Originally posted by MrMind

you still haven't answer me how does being the writer avatar help TOAA win a forum fight

There are boards, which have rules against fights between omnipotent characters. When characters can do everything, it just doesn't make sense to put them up against each other. So when it comes to those characters you don't look at who can do more, but at who can do less.

And the Presence is clearly The One Above Alls inferior. The Presence has been created by outside forces, while The One Above All is that outside force. It's actually quite simple. You just don't like it, so you try to fight against it.

Originally posted by MrMind

let me guess, he gonna write Presence out of existence right?

Yes. That is exactly what's going to happen. Because The One Above All is the outside force that birthed the Presence into existence in the first place.

Originally posted by MrMind

I think I am done with this discussion now sick

Awesome.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by MrMind
I would not even get into this if Enzeru didn't say TOAA stomps Presence GEB Over Monitor all together at the same time. he started the "my omnipotent is better than yours" not me. I think both companies Supreme Beings are equal. Do you think the being infinitely bigger than DC is more powerful than God, in the Overvoid? And if so, is the Presence truly all powerful? And why would a being with actual limits to his power be equal to a being with none in an equally expansive omniverse, or whatever you want to call it.

DC is a mess in terms of the concept of actual omnipotence right now. And then Snyder tried to say there was a back of the page and it was even bigger. laughing out loud

MrMind

I suggest you read superman beyond and multiversity, Morrison created bunch of characters that are metatexual concept

Are you saying The Presence=Fulcrum? let's see some evidence

too bad TOAA has no jurisdiction writing dc comics
lol you think marvel is the only one showing writer on panel? pl pl plssss
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/125547/3255053-am_26_004.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/125547/3255054-am_26_005.jpg
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ffeac7382bba12fc78a337ccfac7e249-c
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-49e21e40bac0f04e8b076a238e6e090e
same shit there's your answer no expression

like I said if you wanna go that route, TOAA=The Writer from DC

thanks for your fan fiction, I'm sure stan lee would be proud

laughing

MrMind

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Do you think the being infinitely bigger than DC is more powerful than God, in the Overvoid? And if so, is the Presence truly all powerful? And why would a being with actual limits to his power be equal to a being with none in an equally expansive omniverse, or whatever you want to call it.

DC is a mess in terms of the concept of actual omnipotence right now. And then Snyder tried to say there was a back of the page and it was even bigger. laughing out loud

I don't think this reflects on characters under God at all because why would it, but whoever the current top dog of DC is should be the only one approaching TOAA in the retarded argument of "My God is better than yours". There should be no "This guy is equal to TOAA but below the real top of DC in THIS GUY", because that is simply not how that works. And if the most powerful God in DC has limits, then maybe nobody is actually equal, who knows, who cares?

Marvel is also a mess for so many reasons, but they do the actual God a service. Once we stop pivoting off of TOAA and omnipotent Gods, maybe you can actually have a comparison going. Probably not though.
the entire arguments regarding supreme beings that has been argued over 10 years on the internet is essentially fans flexing their e-dicks trying to prove "My God is better than yours, thus my company is better than yours." nothing more
but company bias aside, here lies the question, why there has to only be one true omnipotent god? why can't there be two or three? that is actually a very deep philosophical question regarding monotheism and polytheism that I have no energy getting into.

regarding this thread, the concept of having writer avatar on panel>omnipotent is stupid, marvel isn't the only one who introduce the idea of writer manifest character reign supreme over their stories, dc done it with morrison multiple times, other companies fictions have done it.

Enzeru

Originally posted by MrMind

like I said if you wanna go that route, TOAA=The Writer from DC

I've already debunked that idea of yours. You've simply ignored it and restated it again. Wow.

The Writer doesn't even come close to The One Above All. The Writer started off as the avatar of Grant Morrison. Not of "the writer" in general, but that one writer named Grant Morrison, who was working on the Animal Man stories.

Then the Writer became an actual character, since he had written himself into continuity. From that point on he was controlled by others. Who are these others? The same, who have created the Presence. Who has been controlling the Writer and the Presence? Outside forces, but these outside forces simply do not have a form in the DC universe - while the Marvel universe has a form for these outside forces: The One Above All. The One Above All can't be affected by writers, because he is the writers.

The Writer you're talking about... As I said, he is being controlled by others:
https://i.imgur.com/fpqll9I.jpg

The Writer can control reality, if it doesn't flow too fast. So there are clear and massive limitations to his potential omnipotence:
https://i.imgur.com/8ZoaQzS.jpg

And then the Writer ends up getting killed, because he can't write reality fast enough:
https://i.imgur.com/CLCH5mG.jpg

It's actually legit hilarious that you're putting The One Above All and the Writer on the same level. Just stop.

Originally posted by MrMind

regarding this thread, the concept of having writer avatar on panel>omnipotent is stupid, marvel isn't the only one who introduce the idea of writer manifest character reign supreme over their stories, dc done it with morrison multiple times, other companies fictions have done it.

Yeah, and Morrison ended up getting killed in the comics. His avatar doesn't even exist anymore, because it was turned into a character.

Other self-inserted writers in fiction didn't control a universe as big as the Marvel omniverse.
The One Above All is actually the most powerful fictional being in all of existence. It's the writer, who commands the entire fictional universe and that universe is so big, that only the DC universe rivals it in size. Nothing else does. Maybe if you combined all of the existing anime and manga into one omniverse and made the God of that universe the avatar of the writer. Then you would have a new number 1. But for now it's Marvel, because DC doesn't have something like The One Above All. I've already shown multiple times that the Writer from DC is simply not the same metatextual being that The One Above All is. And the Presence is also only a mere character in the DC universe. The most powerful one, but one that has been created by others. The One Above All is the others.

xJLxKing

In that same logic, Over Monitor > Writers

Zack M

DCnU has a supreme being and he takes the form of a dog. Check out Phantom Stranger's series.

Enzeru

Originally posted by xJLxKing

In that same logic, Over Monitor > Writers

No, because the Over-Monitor is the blank piece of paper. Without the writer that piece of paper remains idle.
The writer however can tell his stories verbally. Or make Youtube videos. Or do whatever in order to share his vision with others.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by MrMind
the entire arguments regarding supreme beings that has been argued over 10 years on the internet is essentially fans flexing their e-dicks trying to prove "My God is better than yours, thus my company is better than yours." nothing more
but company bias aside, here lies the question, why there has to only be one true omnipotent god? why can't there be two or three? that is actually a very deep philosophical question regarding monotheism and polytheism that I have no energy getting into.

regarding this thread, the concept of having writer avatar on panel>omnipotent is stupid, marvel isn't the only one who introduce the idea of writer manifest character reign supreme over their stories, dc done it with morrison multiple times, other companies fictions have done it. That's fine. I am well aware of that. But it doesn't help me argue that Namor can solo the entire Legion lineup in history at the same time so I don't give a shit about it. I don't like a company because their God that appears once every decade can beat up another God who appears more. He's not a ****ing character to have as a favorite

All I'm worried about is the merits of these claims. Look at your list for example. We're to believe that a very flawed being in Over Mind is vastly more powerful than the God of the company who admitted he was shaped by something else. And the Presence is equal to TOAA because they're both Gods. Prep Man then comes strolling in and goes "The not omnipotent or omniscient Overvoid is way more powerful than TOAA because The Presence is a germ."
But TOAA lacks such limitations, so why should he be beholden to the same set of rules as the Presence is? By all means if there was something infinitely bigger out there, he should be God of that too. Thanos was talking about creating realities from one nose touch and then infinite realities being created that would all fall under TOAA's jurisdiction. Whatever spreads is still within his power.

It's just that TOAA is everything we picture an all powerful God to be. And I'm not saying there can't be 2 or 3, but there simply isn't in Marvel's case. And the ones in DC are still supposedly under the Over Void. It's just too much to swallow.

That whole writer shit is a concept I don't even want to entertain though. Omnipotence is the word they're looking for.
"He's a writer"
"So... omnipotent...?"
"No he's like a real life writer that can write the comics and is above God."
"So I could get a plane ticket right now and knock out the all powerful diety of Marvel and then get arrested by human cops?"

Morrison writing himself as a God is a real douche move though. Great writer but some things are too much.

MrMind

xJLxKing

Originally posted by Enzeru
No, because the Over-Monitor is the blank piece of paper. Without the writer that piece of paper remains idle.
The writer however can tell his stories verbally. Or make Youtube videos. Or do whatever in order to share his vision with others.

You're reaching!!! You're not a writer, if you're telling a story verbally.

DC views supreme beings different. Over Monitor represents everything.
In limbo, we had a book that contained every "possible" story. The over-monitor is supreme. It doesn't need to be all knowing. It doesn't just represent a writer, it's the tool to give you a story/comic; it is supreeme. There can be multiple writers. Tomorrow a new writer can come and retcon TOAA.

It's all a reach. You just have to accept that DC looks at supreme beings differently. They don't seem to write writers into the story all that much. Outside of WF, I don't think they ever have.

Enzeru

Originally posted by MrMind

the blank paper is youtube or whatever medium you want to tell the story on
without the medium to tell the stories, writer is useless

Well, we're talking about DC comics here. And DC comics were written and drawn on a piece of paper. And since the Over-Monitor / Overvoid / whatever is the blank piece of paper, it's nothing more than a tool of the writer.
Being a tool is what kinda dismisses the idea of the Overvoid being The One Above Alls equal. The Overvoid doesn't have a say in what's being written and drawn on it. It can only roll with it, which again, puts it on a lower level, when it comes to the metatextual hierarchy.

Originally posted by xJLxKing

You're reaching!!! You're not a writer, if you're telling a story verbally.

DC views supreme beings different. Over Monitor represents everything.
In limbo, we had a book that contained every "possible" story. The over-monitor is supreme. It doesn't need to be all knowing. It doesn't just represent a writer, it's the tool to give you a story/comic; it is supreeme. There can be multiple writers. Tomorrow a new writer can come and retcon TOAA.

It's all a reach. You just have to accept that DC looks at supreme beings differently. They don't seem to write writers into the story all that much. Outside of WF, I don't think they ever have.

Well, that's just like, your opinion, man.
Thank you for sharing your opinion with me. I disagree with it, because in your mind the Overvoid seems to have a say in what's being written on it and what isn't. It doesn't. It's the canvas for the writer, who does what he or she wants - which again puts it below the writer. And which again puts The One Above All above the top dog in the DC universe. Like it or not.

xJLxKing

Originally posted by Enzeru
Well, we're talking about DC comics here. And DC comics were written and drawn on a piece of paper. And since the Over-Monitor / Overvoid / whatever is the blank piece of paper, it's nothing more than a tool of the writer.
Being a tool is what kinda dismisses the idea of the Overvoid being The One Above Alls equal. The Overvoid doesn't have a say in what's being written and drawn on it. It can only roll with it, which again, puts it on a lower level, when it comes to the metatextual hierarchy.
TOAA is a tool of a writer as well.....

Enzeru

Originally posted by xJLxKing

TOAA is a tool of a writer as well.....

The One Above All is the avatar of the writer. That's not a tool. That's self-insertion.

xJLxKing

Originally posted by Enzeru

Well, that's just like, your opinion, man.
Thank you for sharing your opinion with me. I disagree with it, because in your mind the Overvoid seems to have a say in what's being written on it and what isn't. It doesn't. It's the canvas for the writer, who does what he or she wants - which again puts it below the writer. And which again puts The One Above All above the top dog in the DC universe. Like it or not.

It's not an opinion. The Over-monitor hold all stories.

You're trying to pretend there is some limitation when you wont accept that if you apply same real life limitation to TOAA, that character is also limited. A writer has no power without the paper. That same logic applies

That's why I said you're reaching.

Yes, you can claim that OM doesn't have power over the writer. But you can inverse it and say the same thing regarding a writer. The TOAA is at the end of the day, a tool, just like a "canvas".

xJLxKing

Originally posted by Enzeru
The One Above All is the avatar of the writer. That's not a tool. That's self-insertion. An avatar is a tool....

MrMind

Originally posted by Enzeru
I've already debunked that idea of yours. You've simply ignored it and restated it again. Wow.

The Writer doesn't even come close to The One Above All. The Writer started off as the avatar of Grant Morrison. Not of "the writer" in general, but that one writer named Grant Morrison, who was working on the Animal Man stories.

Then the Writer became an actual character, since he had written himself into continuity. From that point on he was controlled by others. Who are these others? The same, who have created the Presence. Who has been controlling the Writer and the Presence? Outside forces, but these outside forces simply do not have a form in the DC universe - while the Marvel universe has a form for these outside forces: The One Above All. The One Above All can't be affected by writers, because he is the writers.

The Writer you're talking about... As I said, he is being controlled by others:
https://i.imgur.com/fpqll9I.jpg

The Writer can control reality, if it doesn't flow too fast. So there are clear and massive limitations to his potential omnipotence:
https://i.imgur.com/8ZoaQzS.jpg

And then the Writer ends up getting killed, because he can't write reality fast enough:
https://i.imgur.com/CLCH5mG.jpg

It's actually legit hilarious that you're putting The One Above All and the Writer on the same level. Just stop.

Yeah, and Morrison ended up getting killed in the comics. His avatar doesn't even exist anymore, because it was turned into a character.

Other self-inserted writers in fiction didn't control a universe as big as the Marvel omniverse.
The One Above All is actually the most powerful fictional being in all of existence. It's the writer, who commands the entire fictional universe and that universe is so big, that only the DC universe rivals it in size. Nothing else does. Maybe if you combined all of the existing anime and manga into one omniverse and made the God of that universe the avatar of the writer. Then you would have a new number 1. But for now it's Marvel, because DC doesn't have something like The One Above All. I've already shown multiple times that the Writer from DC is simply not the same metatextual being that The One Above All is. And the Presence is also only a mere character in the DC universe. The most powerful one, but one that has been created by others. The One Above All is the others.

you are like a child "my favorite company has the biggest universe! We have the most powerful god!"
lol, other companies have multiverse too. whoverse, lovecraft etc,as long as they have infinite universes they are the same in size.
you think TOAA is the most powerful being in all of existence. that's your opinion
other people have different ideas, you view being the writer avatar>all, that's how marvel works
but that's not how dc or other companies work.marvel has concept dc don't have, dc has concept marvel don't have. like over-moniter, or empty hand etc, they are all metatextual concepts.
I see dc more powerful because dc has multiple omnipotent beings, marvel only has one. that's my opinion
you want to prove your opinion is right and mine is wrong? you can't
when you discuss omnipotent battles it simply came down to opinion, it's not straight facts like flash is faster than quicksilver, hulk is stronger than bane.
but seriously you think Presence=Fulcrum, c'mon man

MrMind

Originally posted by One Big Mob
That's fine. I am well aware of that. But it doesn't help me argue that Namor can solo the entire Legion lineup in history at the same time so I don't give a shit about it. I don't like a company because their God that appears once every decade can beat up another God who appears more. He's not a ****ing character to have as a favorite

All I'm worried about is the merits of these claims. Look at your list for example. We're to believe that a very flawed being in Over Mind is vastly more powerful than the God of the company who admitted he was shaped by something else. And the Presence is equal to TOAA because they're both Gods. Prep Man then comes strolling in and goes "The not omnipotent or omniscient Overvoid is way more powerful than TOAA because The Presence is a germ."
But TOAA lacks such limitations, so why should he be beholden to the same set of rules as the Presence is? By all means if there was something infinitely bigger out there, he should be God of that too. Thanos was talking about creating realities from one nose touch and then infinite realities being created that would all fall under TOAA's jurisdiction. Whatever spreads is still within his power.

It's just that TOAA is everything we picture an all powerful God to be. And I'm not saying there can't be 2 or 3, but there simply isn't in Marvel's case. And the ones in DC are still supposedly under the Over Void. It's just too much to swallow.

That whole writer shit is a concept I don't even want to entertain though. Omnipotence is the word they're looking for.
"He's a writer"
"So... omnipotent...?"
"No he's like a real life writer that can write the comics and is above God."
"So I could get a plane ticket right now and knock out the all powerful diety of Marvel and then get arrested by human cops?"

Morrison writing himself as a God is a real douche move though. Great writer but some things are too much.

I get what you are saying
if TOAA=Presence, but Over-Moniter>Presence, Over-Moniter>Toaa, no good
if TOAA=Over-Moniter, but Over-Moniter is not the supreme being, no good
if TOAA is writer avatar> in universe omnipotent like Presece, but the Writer from animal man is writer avatar too, but he is not supreme being and TOAA is, but Presence is Supreme being, but he is not writer's avatar.
See what I'm saying? it goes round and round
simply because two companies operate differently
Also Presence is limitless as far as dc multiverse/omniverse concern, over-moniter is a being outside of dc, sorta like pr beyonder outside of marvel

Enzeru

Originally posted by xJLxKing

You're trying to pretend there is some limitation when you wont accept that if you apply same real life limitation to TOAA, that character is also limited.

Yes, you can claim that OM doesn't have power over the writer. But you can inverse it and say the same thing regarding a writer.

https://i.imgur.com/JKtrQM7.jpg

The Overvoid was in shock, when it discovered the existence on itself. That should tell us how much above the Overvoid the outside forces (the writers) are. So the Overvoid was not only not in control over existence being created on it, it actually wasn't even aware of it for the longest time.
And then the Overvoids creation enters that existence, that was created by the outside forces and gets infected by it. Which again proves that the Overvoid is below the outside forces on the hierarchy. The writers do whatever they want with the Overvoid.

Originally posted by MrMind

you want to prove your opinion is right and mine is wrong? you can't

I'm not trying to prove anything on the internet. I've learned a long time ago that trying to change other peoples opinions is the equivalent of talking to a wall. I didn't enter the discussion with you in hopes I would change your mind. I knew that you had your opinion set in mind and that you were going to roll with it until the end of the day.

In human psychology that is called "the backfire effect". When a person gets confronted with an opposing opinion, their belief in their own opinion doesn't waver - instead it gets even stronger. So the more I talk against you, the more you are convinced that everything you're saying is correct... and that I'm a child, who is biased towards the Marvel universe.

All I try to do is to provide as much objective information as possible and back it up with examples, scans, hopefully insightful posts and all that good stuff. What my opposition does, is none of my concern. All I'm trying to do is to make a compelling argument for all the people, who are interested in the topic, read all the arguments and then make up their own mind. Who they side with is totally up to them of course.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by MrMind
I get what you are saying
if TOAA=Presence, but Over-Moniter>Presence, Over-Moniter>Toaa, no good
if TOAA=Over-Moniter, but Over-Moniter is not the supreme being, no good
if TOAA is writer avatar> in universe omnipotent like Presece, but the Writer from animal man is writer avatar too, but he is not supreme being and TOAA is, but Presence is Supreme being, but he is not writer's avatar.
See what I'm saying? it goes round and round
simply because two companies operate differently
Also Presence is limitless as far as dc multiverse/omniverse concern, over-moniter is a being outside of dc, sorta like pr beyonder outside of marvel If TOAA actually had limits it wouldn't be an issue. But the problem is is that we're assuming these beings with clears flaws are on par or above a being with none.

And yes, they operate differently, but still centered around "omni". TOAA has omnipotence, omniscience, and can sense everything in omni reality. Presence is powerful because he created everything in a "limited" range and is omnipotent. We later find out there are limitations and there is a being that makes his reality microbial in comparison. That being does not know things as well. They operate differently, but still perfectly understandable to us.

TOAA does not have a range he can't effect. The entire conversation with Thanos was preordained. Thanos was literally talking about realities created from a nose touch being under his jurisdiction. Now imagine every nose touch from every being in every universe happening every second. All of that is what TOAA has control over. There is no blank being infinitely beyond him because he oversees everything from a place beyond it. No walls, nothing. Everything is expanding at a rapid pace and nothing was shown beyond him.

TOAA is a true omnipotent. DC operates differently because it doesn't have that. The rules aren't different and therefore it shouldn't apply, it just lacks a truly limitless being. Which, there's nothing wrong with that. They are different, but TOAA embodies the true definition of these words. If the Presence were truly all powerful, then a being like Over Void would simply be a place where he keeps his universes with complete control over everything in it.

And Over Monitor is beyond the normal DC, but still part of it. PR Beyonder was retconned and also effected by a ton of beings. Just because he was beyond The Cosmics, does not mean he was beyond Marvel while he was in a Marvel comic getting killed by a Marvel Molecule Man. Just because there were realms beyond The Cosmic Hierarchy, doesn't mean it was beyond TOAA.

Look, you just put whatever Top Dog in DC on par with TOAA and call it a day. You can't have a shitload of them being there because we know all of them have some fairly big flaws. TOAA doesn't.

This doesn't effect either company in the slightest contrary to popular belief since it changes nothing for the germs below them. It's just that in terms of that one use of omnipotent in that one being, Marvel actually did it right. If they went ahead and created a being above God with clear flaws, then they ****ed up too. But they haven't... yet.

zopzop

Originally posted by MrMind
here lies the question, why there has to only be one true omnipotent god? why can't there be two or three? that is actually a very deep philosophical question regarding monotheism and polytheism that I have no energy getting into.

Because it's a logical fallacy. By definition there can only be ONE supreme being (assuming it exists).

Enzeru

On top of everything what One Big Mob has stated, there are also the moments in DC comics, where Presences omnipotence is in question.

In LUCIFER VOL 2 the big thing at the beginning was the search for the killer of the Presence:
https://i.imgur.com/7Fwv5sT.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dJpAhCL.jpg

There was also talk about how Gabriel was able to hide from Presences omniscience:
https://i.imgur.com/YCPByMN.jpg

Imagine The One Above All in the same position. Actually, I can't imagine it. The One Above All is above that. So to say that The One Above All = The Presence... is really quite questionable.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by Enzeru
On top of everything what One Big Mob has stated, there are also the moments in DC comics, where Presences omnipotence is in question.

In LUCIFER VOL 2 the big thing at the beginning was the search for the killer of the Presence:
https://i.imgur.com/7Fwv5sT.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dJpAhCL.jpg

There was also talk about how Gabriel was able to hide from Presences omniscience:
https://i.imgur.com/YCPByMN.jpg

Imagine The One Above All in the same position. Actually, I can't imagine it. The One Above All is above that. So to say that The One Above All = The Presence... is really quite questionable.

I still need to read Volume 2... one day. I mean, you aren't ****ing selling it in the least, but just because of how much I loved the real Lucifer. Then again, maybe that's a reason to avoid it.

Either way, yuck.

NemeBro

Originally posted by xJLxKing
DC views supreme beings different. Over Monitor represents everything. Not quite. The Overmonitor doesn't represent everything, it is the canvas everything is imposed on, by the actual supreme being in DC. The Writer.

Enzeru is also wrong in denying the Writer's credentials as a metatextual supreme being. The Grant Morrison avatar was just that, an avatar controlled by the real writer to write a story. There is essentially no difference between The One Above All and The Writer. The Writer is heavily intertwined with and inseparable from DC's cosmology as of Final Crisis. To deny it is IMHO silly.

The Presence is not TOAA's equal though. That much I'd say is true.

MrMind

Originally posted by One Big Mob
If TOAA actually had limits it wouldn't be an issue. But the problem is is that we're assuming these beings with clears flaws are on par or above a being with none.

And yes, they operate differently, but still centered around "omni". TOAA has omnipotence, omniscience, and can sense everything in omni reality. Presence is powerful because he created everything in a "limited" range and is omnipotent. We later find out there are limitations and there is a being that makes his reality microbial in comparison. That being does not know things as well. They operate differently, but still perfectly understandable to us.

TOAA does not have a range he can't effect. The entire conversation with Thanos was preordained. Thanos was literally talking about realities created from a nose touch being under his jurisdiction. Now imagine every nose touch from every being in every universe happening every second. All of that is what TOAA has control over. There is no blank being infinitely beyond him because he oversees everything from a place beyond it. No walls, nothing. Everything is expanding at a rapid pace and nothing was shown beyond him.

TOAA is a true omnipotent. DC operates differently because it doesn't have that. The rules aren't different and therefore it shouldn't apply, it just lacks a truly limitless being. Which, there's nothing wrong with that. They are different, but TOAA embodies the true definition of these words. If the Presence were truly all powerful, then a being like Over Void would simply be a place where he keeps his universes with complete control over everything in it.

And Over Monitor is beyond the normal DC, but still part of it. PR Beyonder was retconned and also effected by a ton of beings. Just because he was beyond The Cosmics, does not mean he was beyond Marvel while he was in a Marvel comic getting killed by a Marvel Molecule Man. Just because there were realms beyond The Cosmic Hierarchy, doesn't mean it was beyond TOAA.

Look, you just put whatever Top Dog in DC on par with TOAA and call it a day. You can't have a shitload of them being there because we know all of them have some fairly big flaws. TOAA doesn't.

This doesn't effect either company in the slightest contrary to popular belief since it changes nothing for the germs below them. It's just that in terms of that one use of omnipotent in that one being, Marvel actually did it right. If they went ahead and created a being above God with clear flaws, then they ****ed up too. But they haven't... yet.

jesus christ wall of text again, Im in a hurry so I'll respond as much as I can
your argument is that TOAA is truly omnipotent and Presence is not, Presence is less omnipotent than TOAA
well it's false, Over monitor is the metaphor for blank page, dc as it's entirety is story. Over Monitor is not the God who created the DC omniverse.
the God of DC Universe is Presence (yahweh), is by all definition omnipotent, unless you prove it otherwise
he said he was shaped by outside being (the fukin writer), doesn't make him less omnipotent, Presence simply acknowledged that he is a fictional character created by real human beings. just like TOAA is created by marvel writers. I really hope Enzeru realize TOAA is still drawn by actual human being, that TOAA isn't real lol.
Presence is the true Supreme Being to DC, Just like TOAA is to marvel if that answer your question
I agree having more than one truly omnipotent being in one company is stupid as hell, but that's how comic works. well dc has more than one being claiming omnipotent on panel, just like marvel has PR Beyonder on panel stated to be omnipotent. whether if they are truly omnipotent is debatable. what I acknowledge is Presence=TOAA represent both companies true omnipotent. let's be honest here, neither need feats to prove that, (at least I hope I don't have to post both of their appearance in scans here), regardless either one of them appear only couple issues throughout decades of history anyway.
DC cosmic is not stupid by any means, there are two sides of it
Vertigo hierarchy
Presence
Lucifer, Michael, Elaine, GEB
The Endless, Night, Time
this represent the Magic/religion side of DC, Explain DC in a
monotheistic christianity way

Morrison Monitor hierarchy
Over-Monitor
Mandrakk/Though Robot/Empty Hand
Gentry/Ultra Comics/Captain Adam
this represent the science side of DC, with metafiction metaphor

They both expand different concept, which is exactly what make things interesting, you like cosmic universe order to be simple (marvel), I like it to be complex (dc).

MrMind

Originally posted by Enzeru

I'm not trying to prove anything on the internet. I've learned a long time ago that trying to change other peoples opinions is the equivalent of talking to a wall. I didn't enter the discussion with you in hopes I would change your mind. I knew that you had your opinion set in mind and that you were going to roll with it until the end of the day.

In human psychology that is called "the backfire effect". When a person gets confronted with an opposing opinion, their belief in their own opinion doesn't waver - instead it gets even stronger. So the more I talk against you, the more you are convinced that everything you're saying is correct... and that I'm a child, who is biased towards the Marvel universe.

All I try to do is to provide as much objective information as possible and back it up with examples, scans, hopefully insightful posts and all that good stuff. What my opposition does, is none of my concern. All I'm trying to do is to make a compelling argument for all the people, who are interested in the topic, read all the arguments and then make up their own mind. Who they side with is totally up to them of course.

Bro so far you claimed Presence=Fulcrum=Dreaming Celestials, TOAA created Presence, even thought they are not even in the same fukin company, and TOAA is the most powerful being across ALL FICTION bar none, and you claim yourself not biased? let's be honest here just once.

MrMind

Originally posted by zopzop
Because it's a logical fallacy. By definition there can only be ONE supreme being (assuming it exists).

yes I get that, there could only be one omnipotent (though it's actually difficult trying to prove it either way).

I'm just trying to entertain the idea what if there are more than one, a brainstorm. since back in the day people worship polytheism.

Enzeru

Originally posted by NemeBro

Enzeru is also wrong in denying the Writer's credentials as a metatextual supreme being. The Grant Morrison avatar was just that, an avatar controlled by the real writer to write a story. There is essentially no difference between The One Above All and The Writer. The Writer is heavily intertwined with and inseparable from DC's cosmology as of Final Crisis. To deny it is IMHO silly.

I'm not denying it. I'm just not living in the past. The Writer had evolved. Actually devolved, because he went from being the avatar of the writer for Animal Man comics to a mere reality warping character, who ended up getting killed, because he couldn't warp reality fast enough. We always go with the most recent version of a character and the most recent version of the Writer is buried six feet below the ground.

Enzeru

Originally posted by MrMind

Bro so far you claimed Presence=Fulcrum=Dreaming Celestials, TOAA created Presence, even thought they are not even in the same fukin company, and TOAA is the most powerful being across ALL FICTION bar none, and you claim yourself not biased? let's be honest here just once.

The Presence has shown more limits than Fulcrum. I'm being generous to the Presence here, when I put them on the same level.

Not even gonna bother with the TOAA > Presence part. It should be fairly obvious what I had in mind. You're just being deliberately ignorant.

The One Above All is the omnipotentest of the omnipotents in the arguably largest fictional universe period. How am I wrong?
I'm wrong in your opinion, because in your opinion the Doctor Who universe is comparable to the Marvel universe in scale. And that idea alone is so ridiculous, that it completely kills my interest in a further debate.

Zack M

What limits did current Presence have?

xJLxKing

Originally posted by Zack M
What limits did current Presence have?
I think the biggest thing was that he said, he was shaped by things outside his control

I took that as the writer.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by MrMind
jesus christ wall of text again, Im in a hurry so I'll respond as much as I can
your argument is that TOAA is truly omnipotent and Presence is not, Presence is less omnipotent than TOAA
well it's false, Over monitor is the metaphor for blank page, dc as it's entirety is story. Over Monitor is not the God who created the DC omniverse.
the God of DC Universe is Presence (yahweh), is by all definition omnipotent, unless you prove it otherwise
he said he was shaped by outside being (the fukin writer), doesn't make him less omnipotent, Presence simply acknowledged that he is a fictional character created by real human beings. just like TOAA is created by marvel writers. I really hope Enzeru realize TOAA is still drawn by actual human being, that TOAA isn't real lol.
Presence is the true Supreme Being to DC, Just like TOAA is to marvel if that answer your question
I agree having more than one truly omnipotent being in one company is stupid as hell, but that's how comic works. well dc has more than one being claiming omnipotent on panel, just like marvel has PR Beyonder on panel stated to be omnipotent. whether if they are truly omnipotent is debatable. what I acknowledge is Presence=TOAA represent both companies true omnipotent. let's be honest here, neither need feats to prove that, (at least I hope I don't have to post both of their appearance in scans here), regardless either one of them appear only couple issues throughout decades of history anyway.
DC cosmic is not stupid by any means, there are two sides of it
Vertigo hierarchy
Presence
Lucifer, Michael, Elaine, GEB
The Endless, Night, Time
this represent the Magic/religion side of DC, Explain DC in a
monotheistic christianity way

Morrison Monitor hierarchy
Over-Monitor
Mandrakk/Though Robot/Empty Hand
Gentry/Ultra Comics/Captain Adam
this represent the science side of DC, with metafiction metaphor

They both expand different concept, which is exactly what make things interesting, you like cosmic universe order to be simple (marvel), I like it to be complex (dc).

He's not though. He has no power over that massive blank page and the apparently even bigger dark blank page. Everything he's done amounts to a germ to something else within DC. He was created by something else. How is that true omnipotence on the level of TOAA? His omnipotence has never been questioned like that. He's never lost his manhood like that. In talks of impossible things like infinite universes created by a nose touch, he's like "Yup". Everything that can possibly happen is under his power. He's never been anything but Supreme. He's never been a creation in a comic book, he's just been the very best.

They are both creations in comics, I'm not denying that. I would never say they are anything but comic creations. The difference is that nothing created TOAA, while Presence was created by something else, things have gone beyond his scope both in Vertigo and DC (Anti Monitor fight), and the being that makes him and everything he's ever done look like a germ.

It doesn't have to be a feat off when things exist that by definition limit Presence's scope and power it's really not hard to see what Supreme Being got a cap put on their Omnipotence.

I never said I liked anything a certain way. But I like true omnipotence to be portrayed as true omnipotence. Not concepts with gaping flaws just because it's interesting. It's not a different way to portray similar concepts, it's just not true omnipotence is what it is.

Let's say you get hit by a bus today and you go to Heaven, and you meet God and you're like "Hey G-Dog, what's the meaning of life my good man?"
And God's like, "Fukked if I know buddy, we're all just ink on some paper you know. All I do is make shit. Some giant paper guy made me by accident and I started writing stories and fanfics. If you want answers, you gotta go into the Beyond Canvas. Wouldn't recommend it though. J-Eezy went in there once and came out smoking heroin and talking about bottling flaws and shit."

You'd probably question how all powerful he was. You wouldn't be like "Boy howdy is that totally legit and different way to be omnipotent." You'd be like "Fuk"

I'm not saying DC isn't interesting or more interesting at the top. I mean, Morrison has almost sole control afterall. I'm saying the concept of supreme being has been shredded by the people we can liken that title to. Things meant to up the ante have only diluted the meaning of pre existing words and titles. Again, Snyder took Grant's concept and flipped the page (literally) and it was absolutely retarded and amounted to nothing. But what it did do, is furthur downplay just how all powerful the Presence is. It's diluting the term, when true omnipotence should also extend to this giant blank slate instead of being bottled and a part of something bigger.

If you're the strongest guy because you can lift all the weight in your gym, you'd feel pretty inadequate when Carver9 picks up your gym at throws it at the DC head offices.

NemeBro

Originally posted by Enzeru
I'm not denying it. I'm just not living in the past. The Writer had evolved. Actually devolved, because he went from being the avatar of the writer for Animal Man comics to a mere reality warping character, who ended up getting killed, because he couldn't warp reality fast enough. We always go with the most recent version of a character and the most recent version of the Writer is buried six feet below the ground. If you were going by the most recent version of the character, you'd be going with the version that spawned all of DC and its assorted properties on the canvas that is the Overmonitor, which is as far as I remember the latest example of the Writer being shown or alluded to in DC.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by NemeBro
If you were going by the most recent version of the character, you'd be going with the version that spawned all of DC and its assorted properties on the canvas that is the Overmonitor, which is as far as I remember the latest example of the Writer being shown or alluded to in DC. Scan me up baby

NemeBro

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Scan me up baby I'm not going to front on you and claim I have a scan that directly states the Writer is the God of DC the same way one would state The One Above All (Marvel's representation of the writer) is that of Marvel. As far as I can recall, no such scan really exists, and so if people don't want to think of the Writer as of the same status I do I perfectly understand. thumb up

Any indication that such a scan did exist was poor wording on my part.

My claims are merely logical extrapolations based on a few things, like the Overmonitor being the blank canvas stained by the ink of DC, written by the writer.

Something that slipped my mind is that Enzeru's downplaying of the DC Writer is a little odd when, per Grant Morrison's (the character, not the actual writer) words, now that he has written himself in the story, he is now under the control of something else. I don't see this as a refutation of the assertion that the Writer is the equivalent of TOAA, I simply see the on-panel Grant Morrison as being a character created and used by the actual Writer as their representation, whilst still being wholly under the actual Writer's sway. The acknowledgement that he is controlled by them distances himself from them, and at the very least indicates the existence of a metatextual entity beyond the confines of the comic itself.

One Big Mob

Ah, I thought it was actually confirmed. Fat chance with Snyder getting so much power now.

NemeBro

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Ah, I thought it was actually confirmed. Fat chance with Snyder getting so much power now. What is Snyder doing? Not too caught up on modern DC beyond what's posted here atm.

One Big Mob

Being Grant Morrison but edgier and lacks the writing ability to make a coherent story.

It'd be like Rob Liefeld having to draw a foot fetish comic.

NemeBro

Originally posted by One Big Mob
It'd be like Rob Liefeld having to draw a foot fetish comic. Hahah, gross.

abhilegend

TOAA who was sorta manipulated by Thanos and was distinctly a comic book character whose only weapon is love?

http://i.imgur.com/2LApDYE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0WA3sKD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/BqW4IwJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XhPVbFa.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/gPw89wR.jpg

https://imgur.com/a/4V6FF

Writers, eh?

MrMind

Originally posted by One Big Mob
He's not though. He has no power over that massive blank page and the apparently even bigger dark blank page. Everything he's done amounts to a germ to something else within DC. He was created by something else. How is that true omnipotence on the level of TOAA? His omnipotence has never been questioned like that. He's never lost his manhood like that. In talks of impossible things like infinite universes created by a nose touch, he's like "Yup". Everything that can possibly happen is under his power. He's never been anything but Supreme. He's never been a creation in a comic book, he's just been the very best.

I said it multiple times Over Monitor the blank page. Grant Morrison was using metaphor, that dc as entirety is a fukin story. How...does...overmonitor being outside dc omniverse make ****in Presence any less omnipotent. That was exactly how PR Beyonder was introduced in secret wars 2, you don't see any dc fans jump up and down claiming that makes TOAA less omnipotent. (yes I get that it was retconed)Omnipotent is omnipotent, there are no degree of it. so far the only evidence marvel side have to "discredit" Presence was in the end of Lucifer 1, the scan posted by Enzeru on the first page. which was out of context not getting the metaphor to say at least. He was referring to the writer shaping him. The whole conversation and idea at the end of Lucifer was regarding free will.
regarding Enzeru posting pic of lucifer v2 to discredit Presence was lulzy as hell, Presence did not actually died, if he actually read the story to the end he would know what was going on.

TOAA is creation of comic but not created by something else? did you just contradict yourself lol.
but it's nice to know at least you wont indulge me on the TOAA being the writer's avatar crap.

no it haven't. please post scans.

so? unless you can prove marvel omniverse> dc omniverse in size, Overmonitor makes everything TOAA ever done look like a germ too.

so far your stance Presence is nigh-omnipotent only because the existence of over-monitor is shaky as hell. did the overmonitor directly say presence is a germ compare to him? no he only refer to the SIZE of dcu, nothing more nothing less.

you think Presence has gaping flaw is well...just your opinion, not backed by on panel evidence.

what are you talking about? if you think the dark multiverse is outside presence control, you are simply mistaken. in what universe did dark knights metal downplayed Presence powerfulness, prey tell.

at one point you are making fun of prep for using this thread as oppurtunity to take jabs on marvel, yet you are doing the same to dc, hypocrite much?

how does this imagination scenerio has even come up lol. I can't even come up with this shit if I smoke dmt and salvia at the same time wtf. I will give credit when credit is due you are one funny dude one big rob.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I don't really care about this stupid "my omnipotent is better than yours" sort of fanwank, but why would they need it?

Dude you told me you don't care about the my god is better than yours, but for the last 3 pages you subtlely trying to prove TOAA is superior, let's not kid ourselves I get what you trying to do here.

since there's no evidence marvel creation is bigger than dc's
overmonitor makes marvel look like germ. see what I did here?

MrMind

Originally posted by abhilegend
TOAA who was sorta manipulated by Thanos and was distinctly a comic book character whose only weapon is love?

http://i.imgur.com/2LApDYE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0WA3sKD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/BqW4IwJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XhPVbFa.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/gPw89wR.jpg

https://imgur.com/a/4V6FF

Writers, eh?

thumb up

nice find abhi, next time marvel fans trying to low ball dc with their my god is bigger than yours bullshit

I will literally show them this, "my only power is love" wtf

MrMind

btw, TOAA most recent appearance in Thanos miniseries, turned Adam Warlock into the Living Tribunal. He isn't the author, since his stated purpose to to watch things unfold and see what happens. TOAA being writer argument can be ended by now.

Originally posted by Enzeru
On top of everything what One Big Mob has stated, there are also the moments in DC comics, where Presences omnipotence is in question.

In LUCIFER VOL 2 the big thing at the beginning was the search for the killer of the Presence:
https://i.imgur.com/7Fwv5sT.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dJpAhCL.jpg

There was also talk about how Gabriel was able to hide from Presences omniscience:
https://i.imgur.com/YCPByMN.jpg

maybe you should at least read the whole story arc and find out what actually went on. you would know if you read it since this shit was all explained

Enzeru

Originally posted by abhilegend

TOAA who was sorta manipulated by Thanos and was distinctly a comic book character whose only weapon is love?

https://imgur.com/a/4V6FF

That is exactly the type of metatextual stuff we're talking about here :-7 The entire scene, including TOAAs description of himself were pretty much directed towards the readers.
The conversation between Thanos / Adam Warlock and The One Above All didn't need to exist, because the outcome was already predetermined. We're being told that during the conversation itself.

The difference is that Marvel doesn't treat The One Above All as a character. They treat their own characters as characters, who they talk to. Otherwise we wouldn't have gotten the conversation between The One Above All and Peter Parker.

Originally posted by MrMind

regarding Enzeru posting pic of lucifer v2 to discredit Presence was lulzy as hell, Presence did not actually died, if he actually read the story to the end he would know what was going on.

Can you point out, where I said that the Presence died? All I stated was that the death of the Presence was a big plot point in LUCIFER VOL 2. No matter if the Presence died, or got severely wounded or just took an Odin-sleep-nap, he was wounded - which goes against any truly omnipotent being. The Presence couldn't see Gabriel, which goes against any truly omniscience being.

Originally posted by MrMind

nice find abhi

"Look at me. I haven't read any comics with The One Above All in them. I just saw those scans and even though they're going over my head, I'll still pretend it's all the proof I need to beat those pesky, pesky Marvel fans!"

Originally posted by MrMind

I will literally show them this, "my only power is love" wtf

Yeah, go ahead and show it and see how that will play out for you.

Originally posted by MrMind

btw, TOAA most recent appearance in Thanos miniseries, turned Adam Warlock into the Living Tribunal. He isn't the author, since his stated purpose to to watch things unfold and see what happens. TOAA being writer argument can be ended by now.

No, that's the purpose of the Watcher :-7

The comic clearly states that all the conversations and decisions are already predestined. Literally the first few sentences explain that every decision in existence happens by The One Above Alls decree. That goes above free will.

The One Above All has never been affected by outside forces. He is the outside force. The Presence however has been hurt, questioned, outplayed and rendered an insignificant speck in the actuality of creation.

Originally posted by MrMind

maybe you should at least read the whole story arc and find out what actually went on. you would know if you read it since this shit was all explained

I know what happened.

But why don't you go ahead and tell me what happened in your own words. You've been trying to enforced your legless, yet clearly biased opinion since the beginning of this discussion. I'm curious to see how you'll try to twist the narrative in order to make an argument for the Presence.

MrMind

TOAA is not the only writer avatar who can erase characters, dc has multiple characters who has done the same thing, yellow alien for example
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/80518/6515298-a55705d3d539b600cf2441e5e050352ac75cb710.jpg

MrMind

I will respond to the rest wall of text later when I have time but just noticed this, this shit is gold

I think DC Supreme Being=Marvel Supreme Being and I'm the ****ing biased one? You think TOAA is the most powerful fictional character bar none and you are calling me bias? you think dreaming celestial=presence is you being generous and you calling me bias? for god sake you think TOAA created the supreme being of DC. You apply your marvel set of rules to a company that operate on different hierarchy and rules. that is the defination of bias, hello!!! gimme a fukin break. congradulations your mental illness has surpassed sentry.
TOAA is the fictional representation of the real world writer, not the actual real world writer you ****in get it? He is a ****ing character drawn by marvel looked like jack kirby or whatever that she-male talkin to thanos, case closed.

abhilegend

Originally posted by Enzeru
That is exactly the type of metatextual stuff we're talking about here :-7 The entire scene, including TOAAs description of himself were pretty much directed towards the readers.
The conversation between Thanos / Adam Warlock and The One Above All didn't need to exist, because the outcome was already predetermined. We're being told that during the conversation itself.

The difference is that Marvel doesn't treat The One Above All as a character. They treat their own characters as characters, who they talk to. Otherwise we wouldn't have gotten the conversation between The One Above All and Peter Parker.

That's not metatextual in the least. Being predetermined does not mean it's metatextual.

Thanos literally browbeat TOAA in recreating 616 universe. Also TOAA wasn't able to correct the flaw in the universe where there were resurrection hence gave a portion of the power to Thanos who was himself unable to correct the flaw.

TOAA can't even cure the flaw of his own creation.

Enzeru

Originally posted by MrMind

I think DC Supreme Being=Marvel Supreme Being and I'm the ****ing biased one?

That's the whole problem with your argument. You think that just because The One Above All and the Presence are the most powerful beings in their respective universes, it automatically means that they're equals in terms of power. That however is simply not the case for multiple reasons.

One reason being is that the Presence has shown clear limitations. He has been hurt, he couldn't see things and he got overshadowed by another entitity in the Overvoid, who is a metatextual entity - but is still ranked below the metatextual entity in the writer... or in our case The One Above All, the one true God in the arguably biggest fictional universe to ever exist. The One Above All has never shown any signs of weakness.

And you still roll with the wish of The One Above All and the Presence being equals. So yes, you are the biased one.

Originally posted by MrMind

You think TOAA is the most powerful fictional character bar none and you are calling me bias?

As I said, The One Above All is the embodiment of the writer in the one of the - if not the - biggest fictional universes. That concept, that entity, that whatever has complete omnipotence and the complete control over the entire Marvel universe. How is he not the most powerful fictional character in existence?
That has nothing to do with bias. It's plain logic.

Originally posted by MrMind

you think dreaming celestial=presence is you being generous and you calling me bias?

Truth be told is that Fulcrum and Tiamut have shown less limitations than the Presence has. Fulcrum and Tiamut had become equals in terms of power and Fulcrum had been portrayed as pretty much the top dog in the Marvel universe besides The One Above All. Fulcrum is more of a character than The One Above All is, so with The One Above All being out of the discussion, only Fulcrum remains. And with Fulcrum showing less limitations, I do think it's safe to say that he is at least on par with the Presence.

Originally posted by MrMind

for god sake you think TOAA created the supreme being of DC.

I am in utter shock, that you're still riding on that. It should be clear as day that I clearly didn't mean THE The One Above All, but rather the idea of the outside force that The One Above All is meant to represent.
The Presence stated that he has been created by outside forces = the writers. The Presence was created by what The One Above All is meant to be. So yes, The One Above All created the Presence.

Originally posted by MrMind

You apply your marvel set of rules to a company that operate on different hierarchy and rules. that is the defination of bias, hello!!!

This is basically the same story as with Doctor Manhattan in Alan Moores Watchmen comics. Comic readers have been putting Doctor Manhattan against all kinds of powerful characters, where Doctor Manhattan himself had pretty much only been a tank buster at that point.

I don't care about DCs hierarchy and rules. It's not my fault, that Marvel has established a concept that ranks above something in DC. Marvel has still the upper hand in that regard.
At the same time I'm more than happy to admit, that DC has established hierarchies and rules when it comes to speed - speed with which Marvel can't keep up with. I would never argue that the Sentry is as fast as Superman, because he simply isn't. That's not how Marvel comics use speed. Does that now make me biased towards DC? Come on.

Originally posted by MrMind

gimme a fukin break. congradulations your mental illness has surpassed sentry.

Ah, the good old "I'm losing an argument, so I'll fall back to edgy curse words and even personal insults". Great argument. You've clearly dismissed everything I've stated by calling me out on my mental illness.

I have no comeback for that, so I guess I'll just have to concede and grant you the victory: The Presence is The One Above Alls equal in terms of power, influence, importance and all the other relevant stuff.

panthergod

Prove this laughable claim that the MCU is in any way "bigger" than the DCU.

panthergod

Oh, and there's goes that Enzeru>>>RW. Sentry fans are certifiable. That explains why they identify with the character.

h1a8

Originally posted by Enzeru
That is unnecessary.

The One Above All created the Presence.

https://i.imgur.com/zyBhbJ1.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/zyBhbJ1.jpg

I never said that the Presence isn't omnipotent. In his respective universe he is omnipotent. I just said, that The One Above All has the massive advantage of being a metatextual entity. The One Above All is the avatar of the writer. The Presence is a character, created by the writer.

Your Grant Morrison example doesn't hold up at all. Grant Morrison was kinda mainly there for the Animal Man story, where The One Above All reigns supreme over the entire Marvel omniverse. Grant Morrison also kinda died in the comics, if I'm not all too wrong. The One Above All on the other hand is still alive and kicking.

TOAA =/= actual writer

TOAA= a fictional writer of a fictional universe

A fictional writer = omnipotent being (such as the Presence).

MrMind

enzeru it's tiresome when you type this kind of shit, like how can anybody take you seriously

these are all your own words, look at what you are saying
you claim me dont know shit about TOAA, I have all his appeared issues in computer right now, where did it state TOAA is the actual writer? Because that's literally what you said so many times your quote "The One Above All is actually the most powerful fictional being in all of existence. It's the writer". show me on panel proof where did TOAA said "I'm the writer". you fuking can't

at best he was implied to be the fictional representation of the writer. he is a fictional character, how stupid of you to compare him to an actual real life person JK Rowling, and claim TOAA to be more powerful is just well...beyond me.

I'm currently the only who posted scans of both TOAA as Jack Kirby and The Writer as Grant Morrison and compared their showing, and you are calling me baseless?

So far you have shown squat regarding TOAA the most powerful fictional being of existence. just the daily lip service by marvel fanboys ive seen on this board for the past 7 years. no scans no issue number no context, if you want to make such big claim you better have some proof to back it up other than your personal opinion

you make fun of me bringing up whoverse or lovecraft, or dc or other company, like fukin marvel is the biggest in size? gimme a fukin break, there are other companies that have infinite universes, by definition infinite cannot>infinite

lies lies lies and more lies

I literally showed you scans of yellow aliens and the writer on panel being the representation of the writer. so again, how is TOAA special in this regard?how is marvel the only one established this concept? if anything dc established the concept above marvel, dc has writer avatar too, that aint even the supreme being, back in the 90s!

this shit is the same level of retardation as RW claiming sentry is omniversal.

abhilegend

TOAA has limits too.

https://s15.postimg.cc/rdmi1k7xz/RCO003.jpg https://s15.postimg.cc/c4wknslzb/RCO004.jpg https://s15.postimg.cc/apuzz2slz/RCO007.jpg https://s15.postimg.cc/ht2vep5rb/RCO008.jpg https://s15.postimg.cc/bfdsbg8l3/RCO011.jpg https://s15.postimg.cc/apuzz3frb/RCO016.jpg

Thanos had gained full power of TOAA (later retconned) but he was unable to fix a flaw in universe.

While Juggernaut and Melter hospitalized TOAA.

https://s15.postimg.cc/e0jcykd9z/image.jpg

This is fun.

abhilegend

In fact when I consider it now, save for FF 511 and Eternals series, writer avatars in marvel have very shitty showings. Magneto has casually overpowered Stan Lee, Xavier entered his mind without any issue, random aliens who silver surfer defeated mindraped Stan Lee etc.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by MrMind
I said it multiple times Over Monitor the blank page. Grant Morrison was using metaphor, that dc as entirety is a fukin story. How...does...overmonitor being outside dc omniverse make ****in Presence any less omnipotent. That was exactly how PR Beyonder was introduced in secret wars 2, you don't see any dc fans jump up and down claiming that makes TOAA less omnipotent. (yes I get that it was retconed)Omnipotent is omnipotent, there are no degree of it. so far the only evidence marvel side have to "discredit" Presence was in the end of Lucifer 1, the scan posted by Enzeru on the first page. which was out of context not getting the metaphor to say at least. He was referring to the writer shaping him. The whole conversation and idea at the end of Lucifer was regarding free will.
regarding Enzeru posting pic of lucifer v2 to discredit Presence was lulzy as hell, Presence did not actually died, if he actually read the story to the end he would know what was going on. I realize. That still doesn't bode well though. Just because it's complex doesn't mean it still follows the actual rules of omnipotence. You can have the most meta story in the world, but if the end result is slapping us in the face with bending the rules of omnipotence, then I'm probably going to look at that.

If a character is omnipotent for example. All powerful. Yet She-Hulk comes around and rips the page he's on and kills him, was he really omnipotent?

Like you said though, Beyonder was retconned. And that also has no bearing on TOAA directly. Him also being a comic character in a Marvel comic doesn't bode well for him not being created by TOAA either. Just a separate creation from the rest of it. Beyonder didn't look upon the place TOAA was residing in and call everything a corn in his poop. He just said everything was shit. And then it was retconned. And creations of TOAA even before the retcon were able to stand against him. That same thing didn't happen to Overmind. Overmind didn't look upon Superman and go "Mien Gott, his power be infinite homey!" like Beyonder did to Hulk, nor did Dr Light steal all his power and then rape him up the butt.

Originally posted by MrMind
TOAA is creation of comic but not created by something else? did you just contradict yourself lol.
but it's nice to know at least you wont indulge me on the TOAA being the writer's avatar crap. You know exactly what I meant, I didn't think I needed to say "in comic". But to clear it up, TOAA was created by writers in Marvel. But in the comics, TOAA has no creator, Presence does.

I know the whole 4th wall "Writer" shit. But that doesn't fly. Of course Mike Carey was referring to the writers, but as an in comic standpoint, it was something else. What we have to look at is him and his entire creation growing inside another being. Something we can liken to a creator or shaper of him.

TOAA lacks that. He just is. He's like Carver, he's always been there, and he always will be. He has no creator in forums. In real life, sure his mom birthed him 3 months early and his dad went to buy cigarettes, but on the forum he has no beginning and no end. The concept behind his creation does not actually enter his canon.

Originally posted by MrMind
no it haven't. please post scans.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111223216/4777048-spectre3.png

I'd look for scope stuff but Enzoomafoo posted that scan where Gabriel was outside his scope, so I don't want to look for more.

The more important thing is, is that it adds up. I don't think it would matter much but that Overmind retcon kind of throws a wrench in the thing.

Originally posted by MrMind
so? unless you can prove marvel omniverse> dc omniverse in size, Overmonitor makes everything TOAA ever done look like a germ too. I don't need to prove any size. It's just about the actual concept of omnipotence.

It's in the thing that you laughed at and called me rob. If you were all powerful with the ability to create infinite universes, and then you found a place that was even bigger than "infinite", why wouldn't you be able to create infinite universes there too? Why would you not have direct control over that zone as well?

And we know TOAA had control over an ever expanding omniverse where universes can be created simply by one being touching their nose.

Originally posted by MrMind
so far your stance Presence is nigh-omnipotent only because the existence of over-monitor is shaky as hell. did the overmonitor directly say presence is a germ compare to him? no he only refer to the SIZE of dcu, nothing more nothing less. He bottled his creation, and pretty much every DC fan is of the opinion that the Over Mind is more powerful than Presence. Because everything he's done is a germ to him. That is where my stance is based off of.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-aGEo9-4GK6w/UDZo-w1yw6I/AAAAAAAAAFM/xv4U3N42Xfg/s1600/monitor.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111128252/4730577-7316135157-Final.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111128252/4730581-5312259924-XiMoJ.jpg

If the Presence is actually greater than the Overmind, then that's great. You have no idea how much I would like that. But that doesn't seem to be the case is all.

You seem to think I don't want DC to have some uber God. But call me old fashioned and Christian, but I like the idea of one actual omnipotent ruling over all. Just something to be greater than everything else. Hell, I'll take the Dr Manhattan retcon if that ****ing thing ever gets resolved. I'd prefer the Christian God of course, but ****, a little order is nice.

Originally posted by MrMind
you think Presence has gaping flaw is well...just your opinion, not backed by on panel evidence. Not having power over everything in your company is a pretty big flaw in omnipotence.

Originally posted by MrMind
what are you talking about? if you think the dark multiverse is outside presence control, you are simply mistaken. in what universe did dark knights metal downplayed Presence powerfulness, prey tell. No, you're probably right. I was going off memory. What I remember is the page being flipped and that meaning the Overmind as opposed to the Multiverse. If not, that's fine.

Though with what DC is doing now, it would help to have Presence appear and talk about what he has power over.. Things being beyond the multiverse and all that sort of stuff. Meh.

Originally posted by MrMind
at one point you are making fun of prep for using this thread as oppurtunity to take jabs on marvel, yet you are doing the same to dc, hypocrite much? How is that a jab?

Actually read what I wrote there. I said Carver lifted a gym and threw it at DC head offices. Bro. Come on.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by MrMind
how does this imagination scenerio has even come up lol. I can't even come up with this shit if I smoke dmt and salvia at the same time wtf. I will give credit when credit is due you are one funny dude one big rob. Because it's pretty much what DC is now. That's not a knock mind you. I ****ing love it (or more specifically, only love what Morrison is doing) because Morrison has or had full reigns on the thing before hand, and his ideas about Multiversity were great. Morrison's concepts are amazing. The problem is, is that Morrison's concepts don't lend well to the concept of omnipotence as his idea of power is very much in line with 4th wall breaking ideas. Look at some of his uber characters for example. Ultra Comics is controlled by the readers, while his amped form is The Empty Hand who is basically amped by bad human ideas that break down things in the human world. The Overmind is a being who's a blank piece of paper where the comics are printed on. Etc.

Great concepts. Powerful concepts. Different concepts. But not omnipotent concepts, yet these are the top beings in DC. Morrison is basically asserting that human concepts and the way we understand comics supersedes comic all powerful-ness. But true omnipotence should be above that no matter how great the concept is.

Originally posted by MrMind
Dude you told me you don't care about the my god is better than yours, but for the last 3 pages you subtlely trying to prove TOAA is superior, let's not kid ourselves I get what you trying to do here. I don't. What I care about is you not listening. I care about the actual meaning of the word and how it applies to comics.

There's nothing subtle about what I'm doing though. You think I'm trying to prove Marvel > DC. I get that. It sounds bad saying one God is better than the other.
The issue is that where does that lead me to? They have one actual omnipotent God... then what? How does this help me in actual normal debates on the forum? Am I going to say the second in command in LT beats up Presence because TOAA is great? Am I going to go "Yeah, his head got blown off, but they were also omnipotent too so it's cool!" Is that going to help me prove Wolverine can kill Cosmic Armor Superman?

I'm not leading to anything. I just like my omnipotents actually omnipotent. I like words to have meaning. You have absolutely no idea how much I hate that "levels of omnipotent" Celestial scan being presented as a real argument. I don't like when comic writers fuk with the actual meaning of things or concepts just so they can continue using these words and concepts.

If you must know though, here's my opinion on the matter. I believe classic LT was equal to Lucifer Morningstar./Micheal. Scale that off of the beings equal or greater than Lucifer in DC and see exactly how well that turns out for Marvel. It's not about the company, current Marvel can burn for all I care as long as Thanos, Namor, Iron Fist, Cosmic Ghost Rider, and Surfer (with Galactus cameos) are saved. It's about the word, not the company. I don't need to defend random ass characters just to make the company look better. TOAA is just one of the few things Marvel hasn't tried to ruin yet.

Unlike other people, I don't get ass raped by my company and have a vehement need to defend them. I'm not a truck fan (my tranny blew for the fifth time, but look how good the brand is!), a sports fan, a console fan. I'm a fan of individual aspects within those things. I ****ing hate Sony for example, but I still like the games. Marvel is trash, but I still like the characters. I don't need to prove one company is better than the other because Marvel is fukking awful right now, and has been for a while. I just like how they're doing their God correct, or letting writers write his omnipotence correctly.

I understand this is not the normal way, and why you would be leery of what I'm saying. You switch my words to come from Carver's all powerful avatar and you know exactly where he's going. The problem is, I personally don't give a shit about what company is more powerful.

I'll do another example on Omnipotent that I like, or remember liking. Man of Miracles. I might be off on this one since I haven't read Spawn for a long time, but MoM is portrayed perfectly omnipotent. The issue is, while in comics, he/she is omnipotent, Imageverse is comparably small compared to DC/Marvel, which brings into question of how "omnipotent" it is on the forum. Relating this back to Presence, I believe DC can still easily save this, it's just that it hasn't yet. There are things inside the company that haven't fallen under the thrall of The Presence, which are easily fixed. But until that gets fixed, his actual omnipotence is called into question. Even with the "shaped by outside forces", he could have still been all powerful, but once Overvoid came into existence and you start adding things up, it just... why?

Originally posted by MrMind
since there's no evidence marvel creation is bigger than dc's
overmonitor makes marvel look like germ. see what I did here? OK, the problem is this hasn't happened, and if it did and it reflected back on TOAA, I'd have no problem questioning his omnipotence.

There's more I could add, and probably should add, but I gave up.

Originally posted by MrMind
thumb up

nice find abhi, next time marvel fans trying to low ball dc with their my god is bigger than yours bullshit

I will literally show them this, "my only power is love" wtf

That really doesn't diminish anything though. The Thanos scene was already set in stone, as pretty much said. And his only weapon being love might sound stupid (it was Ewing afterall in that mess comic), but it's not exactly wrong.

TOAA's most recent appearance was telling Deadpool how full of love he should be and love shit like that. Even in the only malice appearance of TOAA's appearances, he sent a bunch of angels to smite the Hand out of love Ghost Rider (though the existence of Ghost Rider kind of goes against that... meh). He's a loving God. That's not a limit especially when it's prefaced by him being all powerful.

He's not throwing Care Bear Stares at people. He just loves his creations, but sometimes his love for others takes precedence over that and people have to pay. Way of the world.

Enzeru

Originally posted by h1a8

TOAA =/= actual writer
TOAA= a fictional writer of a fictional universe
A fictional writer = omnipotent being (such as the Presence).

No.

Originally posted by MrMind

enzeru it's tiresome when you type this kind of shit, like how can anybody take you seriously

Irony much?

Originally posted by MrMind

at best he was implied to be the fictional representation of the writer.

Congratulations. After 4 pages you've now finally understood what I've been trying to tell you this entire time. That fictional representation is pretty much that outside force I keep talking about. That metatextual entity.

(I'll straight up ignore some of your "points", where you question things I say. That's clearly on you and I highly doubt that other people will have the same difficulty understanding my points.)

Originally posted by MrMind

I'm currently the only who posted scans of both TOAA as Jack Kirby and The Writer as Grant Morrison and compared their showing, and you are calling me baseless?

No, you're currently the only one, who is ignoring context and character development.
Grant Morrison as the Writer had become a character later on. He wasn't a fictional representation anymore. They changed that concept entirely and then ended up killing him off. I've posted scans to that. The One Above All remained the fictional representation.

Originally posted by MrMind

you make fun of me bringing up whoverse or lovecraft, or dc or other company, like fukin marvel is the biggest in size? gimme a fukin break, there are other companies that have infinite universes, by definition infinite cannot>infinite

Why don't you go ahead and show me these infinite universes from the Doctor Who universe or the HP Lovecraft universe? Oh, there isn't anything to show? It's just the statement that there are infinite universes? Well, that's too bad.
This is about what has been shown and established. Every single What If story in Marvel comics or whatever has been an alternate reality in Marvel comics. And over decades of stories and alternate realities the entire Marvel universe grew in scale. What about all those Doctor Who stories? Which omniverse has more documented universes? Marvel or Doctor Who? You know the answer to that. Hence Marvel universe > Doctor Who universe.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Thanos had gained full power of TOAA (later retconned) but he was unable to fix a flaw in universe.

I see you're back at it with your usual big time ignoring of the context.

1. Why don't you tell me about how canon THE END actually was? :-) It wasn't. Editors have stated, that it wasn't canon and handbooks have stated that the story took place in another reality.

2. Even if we go with the hints of parts of the story being canon, or at least something similar happening in the actual Marvel universe, Thanos only had a fraction of The One Above Alls powers, just like that's already stated.

Originally posted by abhilegend

In fact when I consider it now, save for FF 511 and Eternals series, writer avatars in marvel have very shitty showings. Magneto has casually overpowered Stan Lee, Xavier entered his mind without any issue, random aliens who silver surfer defeated mindraped Stan Lee etc.

And Paul Jenkins fainted, when the Sentry teleported away.

Don't confuse with the Marvel staff with the actual The One Above All.
Comic book writers, editors and artists live in the regular 616 universe. The Marvel omniverse even has an alternate Earth, which is supposed to be our very own Earth.

The One Above All is still the one, who does as he pleases, while the Presence does as the writer pleases it.

krisblaze

So what you're saying is that you don't care about Thor anymore.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by krisblaze
thumb up

So what you're saying is that you don't care about Thor anymore. I like Thor. I don't like current Thor. Aaron needs to stop.

Actually that might not be correct. Without Jane, he writes - or more accurately, wrote - Thor a lot better, so we'll see if he goes back to his old ways or not. Probably not. Ribic might have also been covering for Aaron's shit writing as well.

His Odin is straight garbage though. Again, maybe just Jane, but probably not.

But right now, no, don't care for Thor in comics.

krisblaze

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I like Thor. I don't like current Thor. Aaron needs to stop.

Actually that might not be correct. Without Jane, he writes - or more accurately, wrote - Thor a lot better, so we'll see if he goes back to his old ways or not. Probably not. Ribic might have also been covering for Aaron's shit writing as well.

His Odin is straight garbage though. Again, maybe just Jane, but probably not.

But right now, no, don't care for Thor in comics.

I'm starting to think this is the reason why I enjoyed godbomb so much.

I haven't been that big a fan of Thor since Ragnarok tbh, though JMS had some good stuff and he's had three solid minis in glory, astonishing thor and deviants saga.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by krisblaze
I'm starting to think this is the reason why I enjoyed godbomb so much.

I haven't been that big a fan of Thor since Ragnarok tbh, though JMS had some good stuff and he's had three solid minis in glory, astonishing thor and deviants saga. I didn't mind the stories after, but that was during the time, and I haven't read them since. I did read Original Sin though and that was up there with a Bendis event. Now that I think about it, it was really only made so Aaron could make Jane Thor. Crafty

Fraction was fun. It was in no ways good but it was a lot more digestible than what Aaron has been churning out. Gillen was good though. I wouldn't mind him or JMS having Aaron level control over Thor, but...

krisblaze

Gillen's making nazi comics now, good bless him.

One Big Mob

I laughed in real life reading that

abhilegend

Originally posted by Enzeru

I see you're back at it with your usual big time ignoring of the context.

1. Why don't you tell me about how canon THE END actually was? :-) It wasn't. Editors have stated, that it wasn't canon and handbooks have stated that the story took place in another reality.

Do they now?

Marvel The End is definitely canon.

From Thanos' 2003 mini:
http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t/19713011_Thanos_2003-2004_001-007.jpg http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t/19713013_Thanos_2003-2004_001-008.jpg

From Thanos' 2006 OHOTMU bio:
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11562176_t1.jpg

From Eternity's 2006 OHOTMU bio:
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11562181_t3.jpg

From Living Tribunal's 2006 OHOTMU bio:
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11562184_t4.jpg

From Inifnity's 2006 OHOTMU bio:
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11562187_t5.jpg

From Master Order & Lord Chaos' 2007 OHOTMU bio:
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11562179_t2.jpg

From the 2010 Thanos Sourcebook:
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11562190_t6.jpg

And even if they happen in another reality, its again TOAA's power unable to fix the flaw of a single universe.

Or are you stating there is another TOAA in an alternate universe?

It was enough that Thanos thought himself supreme and was above LT. Yet, it was barely enough to fix a single universe.

So does DC universe. But these were writer avatars, not an alternate reality marvel writers on a different earth.

Except he isn't. He is just another character in comic as explicitly shown.