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Confrontation takes place on the bridge of the Ravager. I think we can all safely agree that Darth Revan is stronger than Darth Traya. But is he capable of beating Nihilus? Nihilus may be more powerful, but could Revan's greater ability in combat afford him the win? Is Nihilus' Drain going to work? Discuss.

Revan can resist his drain, probably. I'm not sure what happens after that.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I think we can all safely agree that Darth Revan is stronger than Darth Traya.

Ehhhhhh

I explained my case (briefly) in the ranking Darth Revan thread. I'm of course open to arguments that Traya's stronger, but as of yet I see Revan as the more powerful of the two.

Darth Revan's far more powerful than Kreia, yeah.

Not sure about far more powerful, just more powerful. I mean, if you hold that Revan was already far more powerful than her during the Mandalorian Wars, that might work.

Nihilus ain't getting subdued by Bastila.

Even if the Ravager is irreparably damaged at the hands of Darth Malak.

What? Revan was subdued by turbolaser fire on his ship when he least expected it, not Bastila.

Nihilus: "Nom, nom, nom"

/the end.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I explained my case (briefly) in the ranking Darth Revan thread. I'm of course open to arguments that Traya's stronger, but as of yet I see Revan as the more powerful of the two.

Well, it's pretty easy to remove Traya and Nihilus from the quote about Mandalorian Wars Revan, and once you do it becomes pretty impossible to compare them.

I guess it stems from me still having immense difficulty ranking Traya, and probably seeing Darth Revan lower than most. I mean, if you look at Traya's only quantifiable feats (IE: not really involving the need to scale from other characters) she has arguably one of the greatest set of Sense feats in the entire mythos. She has control feats that eclipse a vast majority of force users that we rank highly.

She lacks alter, simply because of the game engine. There wasn't really any way of destroying the environment on a large scale, so all we see is her dominating other people, which is much easier to lowball...

So really it's difficult to find a definitive placement for her, if I had to rank her in a place I'd always condition it by saying she has a standard deviation. I just think the upper ends of where you could feasibly argue her to be are above Revan.

Originally posted by Selenial
Well, it's pretty easy to remove Traya and Nihilus from the quote about Mandalorian Wars Revan, and once you do it becomes pretty impossible to compare them.

I guess it stems from me still having immense difficulty ranking Traya, and probably seeing Darth Revan lower than most. I mean, if you look at Traya's only quantifiable feats (IE: not really involving the need to scale from other characters) she has arguably one of the greatest set of Sense feats in the entire mythos. She has control feats that eclipse a vast majority of force users that we rank highly.

She lacks alter, simply because of the game engine. There wasn't really any way of destroying the environment on a large scale, so all we see is her dominating other people, which is much easier to lowball...

So really it's difficult to find a definitive placement for her, if I had to rank her in a place I'd always condition it by saying she has a standard deviation. I just think the upper ends of where you could feasibly argue her to be are above Revan.
Revan was the strongest Jedi in the galaxy (before) he became Darth Revan. He was above Jedi Master Kriea during the time of Mandalorian Wars.

Assuming that Darth Traya is above Jedi Master Kriea as well, Revan's growth in power did not stop either. He explored Malachor V and is confirmed to have learned Sith powers (before) confonting Vitiate, and he would have grown further as Darth Revan.

So Darth Traya's superiority over Darth Revan at any point is unlikely.

Nihilus wins the Hunger Games and thus eats Revan.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan can resist his drain, probably. I'm not sure what happens after that. ^
Can't hold his own ship together with TK, though.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan was the strongest Jedi in the galaxy (before) he became Darth Revan. He was above Jedi Master Kriea during the time of Mandalorian Wars.

Assuming that Darth Traya is above Jedi Master Kriea as well, Revan's growth in power did not stop either. He explored Malachor V and is confirmed to have learned Sith powers (before) confonting Vitiate, and he would have grown further as Darth Revan.

So Darth Traya's superiority over Darth Revan at any point is unlikely. He was the Jedi Order's most powerful champion, Kreia never championed the Jedi Order in any respect.

Regardless, I think Revan is more powerful yeah. And Kreia was after all in awe of him.

Peak Traya could reasonably have caught up to him after regaining her powers and draining the Masters.

Traya before the betrayal was surely lower than he or Malak tho imo.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Regardless, I think Revan is more powerful yeah. And Kreia was after all in awe of him.

In awe of him before she drained the masters. Don't forget, she was likely in awe of his incredible natural affinity for the force. She cared little for Nihilus' strength because it relied on hunger, that doesn't mean her being in awe of Revan means he's stronger than Nihilus. Drain lends an unnatural strength that she simply didn't respect, doesn't mean her power growth didn't eclipse Darth Revan's.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Peak Traya could reasonably have caught up to him after regaining her powers and draining the Masters.

Traya before the betrayal was surely lower than he or Malak tho imo.

Agreed, she seems to tear into her own after draining the masters, to be honest. She has some insane feats before that, but afterwards she literally gives zero ****s about anyone.

I'm not sure she'd be weaker than Darth Malak before the betrayal, it's hard to tell. She evidently cared little for power among the Sith at that point, and made no attempt to dominate the galaxy and take the Star Forge for herself in the DS alternate-continuity. Weaker than Revan for sure, but it's impossible to tell her standing compared to Malak.

Regardless, I don't really think Traya is stronger than Darth Revan. I think there's a pretty strong parity between them.

Yes, I'd put them at about equal as well. It seems like the most sensible placement given their relationship and the fact that she has insane feats while he has like, 2 good ones.

I would argue though that if she felt she could have killed Malak for "killing" Revan I think she probably would have.

Draining the Jedi Masters was intended to make her more powerful? Since when? And Traya isn't Nihilus, so I fail to see your point there.

She grew more powerful by draining them, obviously. Thats how it works.

That's how it worked for Meetra and Nihilus, yeah. Traya is not the same as them.

Moreover, Mando Revan was more powerful than anyone Meetra had ever met. So I guess that's case closed.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's how it worked for Meetra and Nihilus, yeah. Traya is not the same as them.

Moreover, Mando Revan was more powerful than anyone Meetra had ever met. So I guess that's case closed.

No, it's how it worked for everyone who used that draining technique. Traya and the Council both claimed as much. The only difference is Traya resisted the hunger, Nihilus did not, and the Exile was unaware of what she was doing.

That's a fallacious argument and you know it. Firstly, it refers to "command of the Force", even if you believe that means power, the wording is still intentional. The Exile and other characters remarked several times that Nihilus was subservient to his hunger, Traya held the opinion that he was nothing without it. Evidently he would not fall under the category of "command of the force". There's no reason to suggest a Traya who had increased her own power via similar methods would be either. It likely, again, refers to his natural affinity for the force, which is evidently greater than that of Nihilus, Sion, and the Exile.

I was given the impression that it worked in that manner only in tandem with being a wound in the Force.

Bullshit lol. Traya is never described, depicted or regarded in remotely the same vein as Nihilus by Meetra or anyone else. (And frankly, barely knew anything about her.) Or did Meetra not see herself has having a command of the Force either?

And command over the Force certainly does not refer to natural affinity, but command of the Force, that couldn't be anymore clear.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I was given the impressive that it worked in that manner only in tandem with being a wound in the Force.

Bullshit lol. Traya is never described, depicted or regarded in remotely the same vein as Nihilus by Meetra or anyone else. (And frankly, barely knew anything about her.) Or did she not see herself has having a command of the Force either?

Whatever "impressive" you were given is wrong, lmao. Every Sith touched by Malachor has the exact same ability, Nihilus is simply the highest level. Traya remarks that others will reach that level, in time.

Because Traya is never described, depicted or regarded after she had drained three (four, really) of the strongest Jedi masters in the galaxy. One must extrapolate Traya's quotes regarding the Drain technique to herself, once she uses it.

Edit:

Obviously, but someone who becomes subservient to the Force in the pursuit of power is evidently not in "command" of the force, are they? Revan and Nihilus could be equal, but Revan would still have a far greater "command" of the force.

Originally posted by Selenial
Whatever "impressive" you were given is wrong, lmao. Every Sith touched by Malachor has the exact same ability, Nihilus is simply the highest level. Traya remarks that others will reach that level, in time.Ability yes, that doesn't mean it affected the same outcome. Being a wound in the Force meant Meetra was able to drain effortlessly and instinctively, Traya on the other hand, would presumably have had to expend a considerable amount of power just to drain the Masters in the first place.

Yeah because 1. Meetra knows very little about her 2. Traya is not like Nihilus at all. Post draining the Masters neither of those factors changed, some I'm going to need more substantial proof that Meetra didn't see Traya has having a command over the Force. Which honestly, is a ludicrous claim.

Nihilus is not Traya, so again its irrelevant to bring him up. Beyond that? Abstract nonsense I'm afraid, that could be used to describe every Sith ever, or Jedi, depending on your point of view.

On the other hand no, Traya was able to command the Force to do shit, which she accomplished because she was a masterful Force-user, not because she was abomination like Nihilus.

Never thought I'd ever be on Beni's side in a Beni vs Sel debate mmm

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ability yes, that doesn't mean it affected the same outcome. Being a wound in the Force meant Meetra was able to drain effortlessly and instinctively, Traya on the other hand, would presumably have had to expend a considerable amount of power just to drain the Masters in the first place.

Quote? Or is this baseless conjecture? Because the council claim Meetra's wound is the only thing allowing this version of drain to exist, so if it's effortless for her it's effortless for them.



More baseless nonsense. Traya is exactly like Nihilus, as soon as she drains the council. The fact she hates drain doesn't make her different, she calls herself an old woman wielding a poison she despises after all.

In a Jedi sense, of course she thinks Traya doesn't have a conventional command of the force. The Jedi council told her she herself had no "command of the force", that her power was not her own, that she was a cipher and nothing more. The light side path has you subjecting to their will and teachings, so of course Meetra would hold that opinion of the Sith, since it's exactly what the Jedi preach? She is not an infallible source, her opinions do matter.



Yes, it's almost as if you need to consider Meetra's "point of view" to understand the quote.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Never thought I'd ever be on Beni's side in a Beni vs Sel debate mmm

I'm not surprised, you've been slipping lately

Blasphemy.

Originally posted by Selenial
Quote? Or is this baseless conjecture? Because the council claim Meetra's wound is the only thing allowing this version of drain to exist, so if it's effortless for her it's effortless for them.The game yeah the Jedi Masters state that Meetra naturally siphons off of those around here, and if you kill one of them, she instinctively drains them, becoming more powerful.

When did I say anything about hating drain? She's not like Nihilus because she's not a abomination, which should be rather self-evident.

And she took that all to heart did she? I seem to remember several dialogue options in which you could tell them to f*ck off. mmm Nonetheless I don't remember the Jedi Masters saying she didn't have a command of the Force, that seems awfully convenient so I'd appreciate the full passage.

And I'm sure I'll find it in one of your fanfics.

Question, was Kreia a part of the Jedi order during this time? IIRC she left (some sources say was exiled) and if that happens before the Revan "champion of the Jedi" quote is stated, then Kreia would be excluded naturally.

Though I do remember Traya/Kreia has the nifty descriptor "vast telekinetic power" that I don't think I've seen elsewhere:



I wonder if that counts for anything.

But really, all this argument about the command of the Force quote. Its really silly because its based around Drew wanking the protag of his work, the original character the games were based off of. Which I can understand, but really its silly.

Nihilus has FAR, FAR greater accolades and feats than Revan. Even Chris who fell in line and unofficially wanked Revan above his own characters (for KOTOR 3 promotion purposes) set up the official accolades and feats for Nihilus to make him the greatest force in the galaxy.

We all know his accolades, and Chris wrote him in game to be even greater than those accolades which the player is given by in game characters:



So what was the player led to believe up to that point?







I seriously doubt Revan has that kind of power. So when it comes to control/power, it obviously isn't in reference to amount of *power*, but *control* over that power. As Selenial effectively argues, Nihilus was not truly in control of any part of his power, it had the power over him.

The Exile explictly describes Nihilus power as beyond belief in the game, so yeah, Nihilus is more powerful. No reason to assume Traya is though.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The Exile explictly describes Nihilus power as beyond belief in the game, so yeah, Nihilus is more powerful. No reason to assume Traya is though.

Well what we *can* factually state, is that Traya is greater than Meetra at the time of their duel.

What can be argued is...

1.) Revan was Kreia's disciple.
2.) Revan returned after his return to the light.
3.) Kreia saw his progression up to when he left for the Unknown Regions.
4.) At the end of the game, Kreia states Meetra is her greatest disciple (as echoed by a third party source).
5.) Meetra was not her greatest disciple because she followed Kreia's advice and specialized teaching, so it had to be something else.

From what I saw in KOTOR 2, Meetra is greater than Revan up until he leaves known space. I can understand Drew wanting to keep Revan on top, and Chris wanting to hype Revan up fro KOTOR 3, but what's there is there in my opinion.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The Exile explictly describes Nihilus power as beyond belief in the game, so yeah, Nihilus is more powerful. No reason to assume Traya is though.

Wait, so before I reply to the rest... You think the quote somehow doesn't apply to Nihilus but at the same time applies to Traya, right? You don't think it applies to both?

No... because... Traya & Nihilus are... diffurunt.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No... because... Traya & Nihilus are... diffurunt.

Now quickly explain for me how

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
Question, was Kreia a part of the Jedi order during this time? IIRC she left (some sources say was exiled) and if that happens before the Revan "champion of the Jedi" quote is stated, then Kreia would be excluded naturally.

Though I do remember Traya/Kreia has the nifty descriptor "vast telekinetic power" that I don't think I've seen elsewhere:



I wonder if that counts for anything.
She didn't leave during the Mandalorian Wars.

Revan's standing not just comprises that accolade but also Meetra Surik's assessment that his command of the Force was superior to that of any individual whom she met (throughout her life). So when pieced together, Revan is firmly established as the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy and perhaps beyond that. Their is no way to circumvent this holistic assessment.

So? Revan is relatively more powerful and capable Force-user.

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
But really, all this argument about the command of the Force quote. Its really silly because its based around Drew wanking the protag of his work, the original character the games were based off of. Which I can understand, but really its silly.

Nihilus has FAR, FAR greater accolades and feats than Revan. Even Chris who fell in line and unofficially wanked Revan above his own characters (for KOTOR 3 promotion purposes) set up the official accolades and feats for Nihilus to make him the greatest force in the galaxy.

We all know his accolades, and Chris wrote him in game to be even greater than those accolades which the player is given by in game characters:



So what was the player led to believe up to that point?







I seriously doubt Revan has that kind of power. So when it comes to control/power, it obviously isn't in reference to amount of *power*, but *control* over that power. As Selenial effectively argues, Nihilus was not truly in control of any part of his power, it had the power over him.
Darth Nihilus was unstable and would have self-destruct. That is lack of strength on his part. His showings, while grand, are based on borrowed powers. He embodied Nihilism.

Revan, on the other hand, embodied strength and power in true sense of the word. His understanding of the Force is vast and his ability to wield it and raw power, second to none. However, Revan embraced the path of Light.

Originally posted by Selenial
Well, it's pretty easy to remove Traya and Nihilus from the quote about Mandalorian Wars Revan, and once you do it becomes pretty impossible to compare them.

I guess it stems from me still having immense difficulty ranking Traya, and probably seeing Darth Revan lower than most. I mean, if you look at Traya's only quantifiable feats (IE: not really involving the need to scale from other characters) she has arguably one of the greatest set of Sense feats in the entire mythos. She has control feats that eclipse a vast majority of force users that we rank highly.

She lacks alter, simply because of the game engine. There wasn't really any way of destroying the environment on a large scale, so all we see is her dominating other people, which is much easier to lowball...

So really it's difficult to find a definitive placement for her, if I had to rank her in a place I'd always condition it by saying she has a standard deviation. I just think the upper ends of where you could feasibly argue her to be are above Revan.

My stance has nothing to do with the quote from the novel, because as you know, I find it hard to take anything Drew writers about KotOR II seriously.

However, KotOR II itself establishes Revan as having not only having more raw power than anyone else, but also learning everything the Jedi had to offer by the start of the Mandalorian Wars. That puts him above Arren Kae by that time already.

After that, Revan gains enormous dark side powers, and he still hasn't become Darth Revan yet. So that establishes a huge disparity between him and Kreia; even if we take her word that she grew as Darth Traya and interpret that after returning from exile she became even more powerful, it's entirely questionable as to whether she's even rivaled Revan at the end of the Mandalorian Wars. Given that Revan improved yet again upon becoming a Sith Lord, I'm not seeing much of a chance for Traya to match him.