Prime Darth Tyranus vs 3 BBY Darth Vader

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Azronger
Both Legends and Canon feats and accolades are available, with Legends taking priority if contradictions arise.

1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All-out

Who wins?

Emperordmb
Darth Vader.

Azronger
All-out?

Emperordmb
Yes.

Azronger
I'm genuinely curious as to why.

Emperordmb
In both continuities, Vader is more powerful in the Force than Dooku as of this time via his feats, and stated improvement in the Force in Canon.

In canon, Vader actually improved after his injuries, so Canon Vader would likely be the better duelist as well.

In Legends, Vader post ROTS has cybernetics backing his strength for use in Djem So, his physical augmentation as of 18 BBY had already measured up enough for him to be noticeably faster than a slightly post-ROTS Obi-Wan Kenobi (and he's had more time to catch up to his former glory since then), and he's had more time to adjust his fighting style to his new suited figure than he originally had to develop it pre-suit to begin with, not to mention some of the skills he had before are transferable. So even as a duelist he would've been built back up at least close to his former glory at this point, and at least on Dooku's level if not better.

So in both continuities Vader's a better Force user, in Canon he's most likely a better duelist as well, and in Legends I'd argue he's at least on par as a duelist if not better.

Vader's edge in the Force is further compounded by his physical durability, meaning that in a Force duel, not only could Vader erect superior barriers and levy superior offensives, but he can take more direct damage as well.

As far as a duel goes, that's a bit more hazy, but to compound more favor for Vader against Dooku in this area is the fact that he stacks up rather well against Dooku. He now has cybernetics backing his physical strength to wield against Dooku to overwhelm him, he has the armoring and physical durability to completely shrug off less kinetic blows (as is the nature of Dooku's fighting style), Vader now has studied Makashi as well so he can better meet the precision advantage of Dooku's fighting style while still retaining the strength advantage of his own fighting style, and Vader is completely familiar with Dooku's fighting style whereas Vader's style is different from what Dooku has faced before.

So Vader has a definite Force edge, and I'd argue a sabers edge as well, though even if he doesn't possess a sabers edge he'd put up enough of a fight in that category to sway the all-out with his Force advantage.

MythLord
Composite? Backing Dooku for sabers, Vader for Force, and all-out is either way, prolly.

Azronger
I appreciate the detailed answer.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
In both continuities, Vader is more powerful in the Force than Dooku as of this time via his feats, and stated improvement in the Force in Canon.

In canon, Vader actually improved after his injuries, so Canon Vader would likely be the better duelist as well.

Legends takes priority over Canon as per the OP's stipulations. These statements will not be taken into consideration. Legends Vader never reached his former self's level, which is on par Yoda and Palpatine.



Source for him being faster than Kenobi? Anyway, Dooku is faster than even prime Kenobi, so that's not an advantage Vader has over Dooku.



-The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader
_____

The logic used to argue he's on Dooku's level as a duelist is flawed. One's aptitude for dueling is derived from the Force, to which Vader has a considerably lesser connection to than Anakin did. He had to built an entirely new method of fighting; only the technical knowledge he had as Anakin can be attributed to Vader, but nothing else.

Feats would also disagree with you here. While Anakin was hindered down to Obi-Wan's level as a Force user (as indicated by their telekinetic stalemate), Obi-Wan conceded inferiority to him as a duelist:



-Revenge of the Sith junior novel

Contrasted with Vader's performance against a "shadow" of the same Kenobi, it becomes apparent he isn't on par Anakin at all:



-Death Star



-Fightsaber



-Death Star



-Insider

And he's certainly not better than Dooku, who was handling both prime Kenobi and Anakin at once, one-shotting the former with a kick in the comic, managing to control the path of Obi-Wan's blade against his will, and while ultimately challenged, beating Obi-Wan in the novel as well. All while dealing with Anakin. There's no way Vader comes out on top.



Agreed, but durability does not win fights by itself. It only prolongs the inevitable, unless the opponent tires quickly. And while Dooku does, he can fix that with a snap of his fingers:



-Revenge of the Sith novel



What strength showings does Vader have that would allow him to overwhelm Dooku? The latter was casually blocking the strikes of Grievous, who is a powerhouse in his own right. Also, even if Vader is stronger, it wouldn't be a big issue for Dooku since his style is based around redirecting strength rather than meeting it head-on.

Also, his armor wouldn't withstand a cho mai (severing of a hand) or a hit to the chest. It only fully protects him from certain places. And again, Vader's durability can only prolong the fight, not make him win it.

What advantage does Vader's style have over Dooku's? Djem So certainly has a weakness Dooku could exploit:



-Revenge of the Sith novel

Also, I find arguing form advantages kind of redundant, since in my opinion, unless we're dealing with realitively inexperienced duelists, it is about the user, not the form. Additionally, Dooku is familiar with all the forms of lightsaber combat and has sparred with Grievous many times. I doubt Vader would present anything the Count hasn't dealt with in the past.

Overall, I don't find any of the points you've raised to be enough to negate Dooku's skill advantage, and his overall performance against superior duelists. I don't see any reason as to why Vader would defeat Dooku in a dueling contest.



You haven't elaborated on the Force advantage at all. What is this based on?

DarthAnt66
Do you have a job / school or do you just shit out posts all day lol

DarthAnt66
Vader wins if TFU. Otherwise Dooku.

Azronger
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Do you have a job / school or do you just shit out posts all day lol

Those two are not mutually exclusive. I can post and still be in school.

DarthAnt66
Your shit posting responses that big while at school?

Azronger
Sometimes, yeah.

Beniboybling
Vader. Dominating Starkiller in sabers and the Force > losing to Quinlan Vos. And was the greatest of Palpatine's apprentices. thumb up

Azronger
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Vader. Dominating Starkiller in sabers and the Force > losing to Quinlan Vos.

Stop trolling and answer seriously.



Was he already considered that as of 3 BBY?

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Azronger
Stop trolling and answer seriously.I was answering seriously, Dark Disciple happened, and Dooku takes the L here. smile

Sidious regards him as the greatest Jedi killer of all time looking back during DE, but I imagine the bulk of the Jedi he killed was pre-3BBY, as early as Tarkin refers to his powers as unparalleled, at some point before his initial death calls him his minor masterpiece, and the Dark Empire handbook describes him as the strongest of Palpatine's disciples. There is some wiggle room, but not much.

Geistalt
Originally posted by MythLord
Composite? Backing Dooku for sabers, Vader for Force, and all-out is either way, prolly.

Kurk
Dooku in all except maybe force which is close

playa1258
Vader takes all.

Azronger
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I was answering seriously, Dark Disciple happened, and Dooku takes the L here. smile

This 3 BBY Vader. TFU feats - especially TFU II feats - don't count.

Now, how exactly does Quin's one-off performance against Dooku refute any of the points I've raised so far about Dooku's skill in comparison to Vader?



Vader being the greatest Jedi killer of all time may have been in reference to the amount of Jedi he killed, not that he was the most powerful or skilled.

Quote from Tarkin?

The rest isn't referring to 3 BBY Vader.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Azronger
This 3 BBY Vader. TFU feats - especially TFU II feats - don't count.I don't see why not, those events occur between 3BBY and 1BBY, and there is little reason to believe Vader experienced notable gains during this period.

Well for one it demonstrates that Dooku being more classically skilled than his opponent isn't any guarantee of a victory, especially if said opponent can exploit and capitalise on his weaknesses. Vader is more than technically adroit enough to contend with the Count and in that respect will smash him with superior strength, speed and stamina. And the fact that Dooku was succumbing to Anakin's strength as earlier as mid-TCW, doesn't paint a favourable picture of him doing any better here.

Others such as Malgus and Tulak Hord have killed far more Jedi than Vader, its an obvious reference to his effectiveness. In which respect he's apparently better than Dooku.

"You are a true Sith, Lord Vader. Your dedication is unerring and your powers unparalleled. Perhaps, however, you are under the misimpression that only Sith and Jedi have trials to pass."

That's an arbitrary statement, feel free to back it up with anything.

SunRazer
Vader's faster now?

Also, with Legends taking priority, this is still Vader before ANH, at which time he was only a pale shadow of his former self and around Ben Kenobi's level, with Ben being a pale shadow of his RotS self, who in turn is lesser than Dooku.

Where does Dooku succumb to Anakin's strength in mid-TCW? Is this the Naboo one where he was getting angry? We see otherwise in his fights against Anakin in S6, Dark Disciple, the RotS film, the RotS junior novel, etc.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by SunRazer
Also, with Legends taking priority, this is still Vader before ANH, at which time he was only a pale shadow of his former self and around Ben Kenobi's level, with Ben being a pale shadow of his RotS self, who in turn is lesser than Dooku.

Retconned by TFU, phag.

Petrus
No contest.

SunRazer
What does TFU retcon? It's long been retconned that Vader fought other Jedi, sure, but I'm not seeing where TFU changes that either he or Ben Kenobi were pale shadows of their former selves. Ben is noted in 2002, 2007 and 2010 (post-TFU/TFU II) respectively to be past his prime.

If you're talking about TFU claiming that Vader's unparalleled, he can be better than Obi-Wan and still on the same level, as he clearly is. erm

SunRazer
That being said, TFU Vader is decidedly more powerful than Dooku in the Force, and indeed boasts (generally) superior physicals. The Count's only saving grace here is skill and agility; possibly speed also.

cs_zoltan
Someone who can ragdoll frigate busters and outduel a near perfect Juyo duelist is not a shadow his former self lmao.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by SunRazer
What does TFU retcon? It's long been retconned that Vader fought other Jedi, sure, but I'm not seeing where TFU changes that either he or Ben Kenobi were pale shadows of their former selves. Ben is noted in 2002, 2007 and 2010 (post-TFU/TFU II) respectively to be past his prime.

If you're talking about TFU claiming that Vader's unparalleled, he can be better than Obi-Wan and still on the same level, as he clearly is. erm

Frankly though the whole shadow of his former self thing shouldn't really do much to be a negative. The fact that Vader was able to do all he did while supposedly in that state and then just growing after is still impressive. Ben ergo with him being able to duel Vader like that then is also good.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by SunRazer
Vader's faster now?Sure. Ferus Olin describes 18BBY Vader as faster than he's seen anyone move bar Yoda which could well put him above Jedi Dooku & Mace, in 14BBY he's moving almost as one with Sidious, who, while holding back, has trashed Maul and blitzed Savage under similar circumstances, and in 1BBY is disinterestedly intercepting Marek's attacks and stonewalling him with an impenetrable defense.

Ben isn't on Vader's level in Force augmentation, and frankly neither is RotS Kenobi, so I'm not sure what your point is here.

In both their Naboo fights yeah. And I never argued Anakin was consistently able to accomplish this, only that Dooku is clearly susceptible. And he's up against a much stronger opponent now, and perhaps even more skilled.

SunRazer
@Beni -

1. Yeah; the Obi-Wan that Ferus saw was being repeatedly tagged by teenage Boba. Has Ferus seen Dooku or Mace in action? ANH Vader's speed was relatively matched by ANH Obi-Wan, who's factually slower than RotS Obi-Wan.

In 14BBY he was moving almost as one with the Emperor before it was revealed that his master had shown "so little of his true power".

In 1BBY, that would be the clone. What are his speed feats? I don't recall anything overwhelming. In 2BBY, the original Galen Marek is expressly stated to be faster than Vader in the novel, and this is 3BBY Vader.

2. I'm talking primarily about skill here; Vader doesn't outclass Ben in that. I already said Vader has better physicals than Dooku - what I'm debating here is whether or not the Count's skill edge could make up for his deficits in power and strength/durability, something I haven't reached a judgement on myself.

3. Yeah, 'cuz he was getting angry on Naboo. The fact that he failed to do anything of the sort in all of his later fights against Dooku says something.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Someone who can ragdoll frigate busters and outduel a near perfect Juyo duelist is not a shadow his former self lmao. Tbh still a shadow of Anakin. But Anakin is Yoda tier so that means nothing. smile

SunRazer
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Someone who can ragdoll frigate busters and outduel a near perfect Juyo duelist is not a shadow his former self lmao.

Near-perfect Juyo duelist is a Kas'im-level accolade, although the clone doesn't actually have that accolade unless you think his skills are actually on par with Galen's. If so, the stark difference in Vader's performance against the two suggests that he grew substantially in that one year. But seeing as this is 3BBY Vader, he doesn't get that feat to begin with.

As for ragdolling frigate busters, that's power, not skill, and the accolade refers to lightsabers skill only (because, you know, it's from Fightsaber, which is an article on saber skill).

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Frankly though the whole shadow of his former self thing shouldn't really do much to be a negative. The fact that Vader was able to do all he did while supposedly in that state and then just growing after is still impressive. Ben ergo with him being able to duel Vader like that then is also good.

I'm using that to say Dooku > RotS Kenobi >> ANH Kenobi in skill, with ANH Obi-Wan being ~ ANH Vader in skill. And this is Vader 3 years before that.

The rest of your post is a given but irrelevant here.

DarthAnt66
Vader can't ragdoll the same Starkiller than busted that frigate anyway.

Starkiller was in an entirely different situation - and his power is highly situational.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by SunRazer
Near-perfect Juyo duelist is a Kas'im-level accolade, although the clone doesn't actually have that accolade unless you think his skills are actually on par with Galen's.

Yeah except Kas'im's is a character opinion (iirc), while Galen's is not. And Kas'im lost to a traine while Galen contended with one of the premier lightsaber duelist of the prime of the jedi.

And yeah the clone still has that accolade:

http://i.imgur.com/f4OdMDs.png

Let the irony sink in.



The stark differnece is because of circumstances not because Vader grew vastly erm

SunRazer
1. The part about Kas'im being the best ever was an opinion. The part about him training his whole life to perfect every form isn't, if I recall correctly. There's people like Kavar who are skilled masters of Juyo anyway.

Regardless, this accolade about Galen being "near-perfect" obviously isn't literal given that Galen is nowhere near perfect (level 10, and he's only a level 8 at best with there being an enormous difference between each level per Gillard). Heck, he gets this accolade at the start of the game, IIRC, by which time he's definitely not an 8. He immediately goes on to get outpaced by Kazdan Paratus and get swiftly put on the back foot by Shaak Ti, as well as "needing all of his skill to survive" against a simulacrum of Darth Desolous that every Padawan beats in order to become a Jedi Knight. Not to mention that an improved Galen goes on to struggle with Maris Brood and Shadow Guards. laughing out loud

Compare that to Anakin, who, whilst hindered, effortlessly cleaved through a master of all forms (and more combat styles than most people would know) and a factually nigh-unparalleled swordsman in Cin Drallig. Not to mention being Palpatine-tier. Yeah, Vader beating Galen doesn't mean he isn't a former shadow of Anakin.

And yeah, I was referring to that quote when I said "unless you think his skills are on par with Galen's", so there's no irony whatsoever. The reason I had reservations before was because none of the clones are perfect, although Starkiller's problem was just emotional, right? If so, fair enough.

2. What circumstances? If there was such a disparity between Vader and SK, the Dark Lord could've beaten Galen during the pre-Dun Moch stage of the duel, but he didn't. Also, Galen's expressly stated to be faster than Vader in the novel, IIRC, whereas SK doesn't appear to be faster than Vader. So it does seem like Vader's improved.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Yeah; the Obi-Wan that Ferus saw was being repeatedly tagged by teenage Boba. as Ferus seen Dooku or Mace in action?Both Mace (I believe) and particularly Dooku were some of the Order's most premier lightsaber instructors, Dooku's duelling instruction videos were mandatory viewing among Padawans, or in other words they are prolific and therefore very high profile duellists. Given that it seems far more unlikely that Ferus hasn't seen a demonstration of either of their talents than that he had.

Acknowledged and addressed.

Inheriting Marek's power and skill for starters, and in regards to Marek being faster that's not really stated. Only that in comparison to Vader being "strong and relentless" Marek was "fast and sly", but that could be more a reference to fighting style than anything, or Marek's greater mobility. More to the point there is little evidence to suggest Vader increased over those years, certainly when the Marek clone faces him again, his only observations were that he was more cautious and his armour had got an upgrade.

Well I've already addressed that in my response to Az. That said, can you prove that Dooku is a superior swordsman to Kenobi?

Irrelevant tbh considering Vader > TCW Anakin even when enraged, though to humour your point he wasn't particularly angry in these instances:

https://i.imgflip.com/1etsng.gif https://i.imgflip.com/1etsof.gif https://i.imgflip.com/1ltxe8.gif
It does namely that your not reading them properly. On Obao-Diah Dooku exploits the shortcomings of Skywalker & Kenobi's synergy and overpowers Anakin through effective use of leverage. In Dark Disciple little detail is given regarding the fight besides the fact that it went back and forth, which if anything implies at some stages Anakin had the upper hand, in RotS fight, the adult novelisation brings into doubt the reliability of the junior and in the movie he only gains an upper hand in strength through again, leverage.

The examples provided here on the other hand are much more conclusive, and with fewer strings attached.

cs_zoltan

Azronger
Starkiller busted a frigate when he was in Oneness. He cannot bring that power to bear in a fight and Vader ragdolling him (which only happened in the Wii version btw) doesn't mean he can bust a frigate himself.

cs_zoltan
Lmao

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Azronger
Starkiller busted a frigate when he was in Oneness. He cannot bring that power to bear in a fight and Vader ragdolling him (which only happened in the Wii version btw) doesn't mean he can bust a frigate himself. Stuff and nonsense. laughing out loud

It's weird though that people argue that Marek could have only done this because of his intense love for Juno who was facing death should he fail, when in the fight in which Marek was ragdolled by Vader, Marek was fighting out of intense love for Juno who facing death (if not being already dead) should he fail. eek!

And btw, the Wii version is no less canon than the rest. Sad times. smile

darthbane77
Vader, all.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And btw, the Wii version is no less canon than the rest. Sad times. smile

Hardly matters since Galen was ragdolled in the PC version too.

RIP in peace Az's argument.

Beniboybling
And confirmed by the Prima Guide.

RIP Az. smile

Azronger
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/galen-marek-and-starkiller-clone-vs-dooku-and-maul-1864262/#js-message-50

I've made the case here.

Also, he's stated to have been tossed like a ragdoll by Vader, not that he actually was in an inescapable Force grip, which remains unsupported save for the Wii version. And to my knowledge, the PS3/Xbox versions overwrite the others in terms of continuity. Feel free to correct me on that, though.

Beniboybling
confused

A ragdoll is a children's toy, obviously any comparison between Marek and one is going to be presented as a metaphorical. On the other hand, Vader was able to man handle Marek like a children's toy, and in the Wii version (of which their is no grounds for what you claim) fails to break his grip until the final moment. That seems like a sufficient feat of domination to me.

As for your point on CV, the obvious discrepancies between the two events are sufficient to debunk it tbh. I'm sure you can spot them.

Ursumeles
Dooku in 'sabers, Vader in Force (?) and not sure about All-Out.

SunRazer
So I can quote Beni's post but not Zoltan's (this is a recurring theme with ol' Zolt - I'm beginning to wonder if it's something he does).



I felt the need to mention Shaak again because it's part of a string of examples of Galen being nowhere near perfect. He did struggle with Maris, since he staggered backwards and delayed the fight with Soresu before switching to Juyo, which Brood was unfamiliar with, to overwhelm her. That being said, they were fighting on a DS nexus and he was apparently somewhat weakened from his battle with the Bull Rancor, but that's still hardly a positive mark in his favour.

As for Darth Desolous, I got it from the PS2/Wii/PSP versions of the game, where Kento Marek's Force Ghost (which can obviously see the future) gives Galen a warning that he'll need all his skills to survive; yet this is a mere simulacrum of Desolous that padawans beat as part of their trials. You also didn't mention the Shadow Guards, probably because you know he did in fact struggle with them.

So instead of cherry-picking my examples and trying to disprove individual points meaninglessly for the sake of it, take a look at the bigger picture and realize my point; that the quote is hyperbole and that Galen is in no way near-perfect, especially as of the start of the game.



There's no dismissal; I'm putting it in its place - it's obviously hyperbole. Being "skilled" doesn't mean shit at this level, lmao. And again, Vader beating him doesn't in any way put him up there with prime Anakin as you're implying. Anakin, probably more easily than Vader beat SK, beat an arguably superior swordsman than Galen in Cin Drallig, despite being hindered and using one hand because he was choking somebody else at the same time.



I know that. As with you and Shaak Ti, I referenced it beforehand. It's not like I forgot the quote; I just had reservations about its application. But I already said I can get on board with you on the point.



Where? I only know the quote about Vader fighting recklessly. Either way, again, beating Galen is probably inferior to beating Drallig, never mind the fact that Anakin was doing it with greater ease whilst hindered.

So in no way does this put Vader on Anakin's level, as you implied.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Both Mace (I believe) and particularly Dooku were some of the Order's most premier lightsaber instructors, Dooku's duelling instruction videos were mandatory viewing among Padawans, or in other words they are prolific and therefore very high profile duellists. Given that it seems far more unlikely that Ferus hasn't seen a demonstration of either of their talents than that he had.

Interesting. Do you have evidence to back up the first two claims of yours? Also, unless I'm mistaken, more recent sources have Jedi musing that Vader around this time to be slow.



This rests on the assumption that the extent to which Sidious was holding back in Lords of the Sith and in The Lawless is identical, which is up to you to prove.

If the suggestion is that Vader is noticeably faster than Maul or Savage, that seems unlikely given that his movements are stated to be restricted by a 2010 source and according to Lucas, he's a "crippled half-robot" which certainly doesn't sound like he's faster than Maul at all.



Even if it did refer to fighting styles, that's not mutually exclusive from it listing advantages as well. As for Vader increasing over the years, my evidence lies on the disparity of his performance between Galen and SK, although the circumstances may balance it out as my discussion with Zoltan is bringing up.



On that topic, Vader's Jedi killer quote is a Legends accolade, and I'm not seeing why Dooku would fall under its jurisdiction. To memory, the only Jedi that Dooku's personally killed is Tiplee, which happens in a canon-only comic. Sifo-Dyas he arranges to get killed and doesn't execute personally; and I can't think of any other kills off the top of my head - certainly not any notable ones. With a record of zero Jedi kills in Legends, I think it's fair game to exclude Dooku from that accolade since he isn't really a personal Jedi killer to begin with.



He has better skill feats and accolades. The RotS junior novel claims that Anakin and Dooku are dead even and even in the RotS novel, Anakin's advantages come down to physicals rather than skill. We know Anakin as of the start of RotS eclipses Obi-Wan.

Apart from that, contending with Yoda, being equal with Mace as of Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, easily beating Grievous on repeated occasions, trashing S6 Obi-Wan and holding his own comfortably against Obi-Wan and Anakin in RotS (the RotS novel's an outlier) should put him above Obi-Wan.



Well, these come down to saberlocks rather than a theme of Dooku succumbing to Anakin's strength throughout the fight. In the first one, I agree he was outright overpowered, but it wasn't that big of a deal since he was able to respond to Anakin's follow-up moves just fine. We have examples of Yoda doing something similar to Sidious. In the second one, it looks like Dooku is briefly having some sort of mental realization about how good Anakin is; he manages to halt Anakin's blade eventually and use telekinesis at the same time. Later in the same fight, Anakin and Dooku briefly lock blades again and Anakin's clearly not pushing Dooku's blade back in that one.

It's arguable that the first two instances with Anakin pushing the Count's saber back come down to Dooku underestimating Anakin (IIRC, this is their first fight since the TCW movie so he probably didn't expect Anakin to grow so much), since in the second one he eventually manages to stop Anakin from pushing with his blade anymore, and in the bladelock after that, again, Anakin fails to push Dooku's blade back at all.

In the last one, Dooku overpowers Anakin, so I have no idea what you're talking about. People may be pushed back slightly in bladelocks as they gather power to overpower their opponent; I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. Also, Anakin just came off a bloodlusted attack on Dooku and later has a visibly angry face as Dooku escapes, so I'd say he was fairly pissed.



I didn't say Dooku was stronger than Anakin, just that Anakin failed to replicate such things in later fights. Also regarding leverage, it's funny that one of your earlier examples was from Crisis on Naboo, because in that one when Anakin leaps onto the ramp, Dooku uses only one hand to block a two-handed avalanche strike from behind him, which is a terrible situation as far as leverage goes. Yet, Dooku doesn't succumb to Anakin's strength there at all.

Also, no, the RotS novel is an outlier when it comes to the duel on the Invisible Hand; it depicts Dooku floundering against the duo and the duo changing fighting styles which no other source does. The film doesn't show Dooku struggling until the end, and the junior novel, which is much more closely aligned with the film, depicts Dooku appearing at ease even when defending against the both of them; he's also only driven back slowly. Not to mention both the SW website and TCSWE claim that Dooku proved a formidable opponent to the duo. The script has Dooku driving the duo back at least once, with him and Obi-Wan tiring at the same rate whilst Anakin grows in strength over the course of the fight as a result of "getting angry".

As I mentioned earlier, the RotS junior novel depicts Anakin as being unable to gain any kind of advantage over Dooku at all until he draws upon his rage. That would include strength. smile

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Azronger
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/galen-marek-and-starkiller-clone-vs-dooku-and-maul-1864262/#js-message-50

I've made the case here.

Also, he's stated to have been tossed like a ragdoll by Vader, not that he actually was in an inescapable Force grip, which remains unsupported save for the Wii version. And to my knowledge, the PS3/Xbox versions overwrite the others in terms of continuity. Feel free to correct me on that, though.
Its too bad nether the ps3 or xbox verison have starkille rbreaking out of vader's force grip but rather vader willingly throwing him up into the air after choking him. So they don't actually contradict the wii version. And "being thrown like a ragdoll" is literally ragdolling

Rockydonovang
also what marek can do to tfu 1 vader has no bearing on tfu 2 vader which features another, very obviously more powerful version of vader

cs_zoltan
@Nova I never said Vader is >= Anakin, just that he is not a shadow of him. Which implies a huge difference.

SunRazer
Any reason to suspect that Vader can compare to Sidious at this point as a swordsman?

Also, Anakin beating Drallig > Vader beating Galen, then factor in how Anakin was hindered, using only one hand as he choked Bene simultaneously, and still beat Drallig with greater ease than Vader did Galen. Pretty big difference from where I'm standing.

And there's the fact that nothing explicitly retcons Fightsaber's remark about ANH Vader's dueling ability in comparison to Anakin's. Lucas would seem to support that, actually.

cs_zoltan
Lmao, beating Drallig isn't better than beating Galen.

And Vader not only compares, but is better than Sidious smile

Darth Vader is the embodiment of all evil. Under the guidance of Emperor Palpatine-aka Darth Sidious- Lord Vader controls the Galactic Empire with an iron fist. He's an unparalleled lightsaber combatant and an even more capable Force wielder.
-- Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide

SunRazer
1. Drallig > TFU 1 Galen, tbh. His accolades are better and none of Galen's feats are out of Cin's paygrade.

2. One of the shititest quotes ever. smile

cs_zoltan
1. Drallig is not even better than the B-Team, while one can easily argue TFU Ti is so nah.

2. Let me know when your word is canon, until then choke on a dick smile

SunRazer
1. Drallig came to Dooku's mind before the B-team as a premier swordsman of the Order, so that's at least a possibility. Is it factually confirmed that the B-team are better? Otherwise, he could well be better than Saesee at least. Also, Galen was losing to TFU Shaak.

2. It's always been canon. For I am: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GuEYrRN5SE

cs_zoltan
Give me a reason why would Mace not pick Drallig if he was better than the B-Team and also available. Shaak was charged with the defense of the Temple, so you can't even bring that up as an excuse.

And yeah Galen was losing to her...before his prime, duh.

SunRazer
1. Who said Shaak was the only defender? Drallig was the head of the Temple Guard, head of the Temple Security Force, and the Battlemaster; it seems to me that he was also there to defend the Temple and protect/teach the padawans. Mace mentions bringing "three of the best", not "the three best".

So anyway, there's your reason. And now it's time for you to prove that the B-team is definitively above Drallig. What proof is there? Dooku mentioning Drallig instead of the B-team alongside Obi-Wan puts him in rather high esteem and implies that he's a level 8. His accolades about being unparalleled or nearly unparalleled don't hurt either, and they're better than anything the B-team have.

2. What proof is there that he surpassed her? You said his fight against Vader doesn't count; that leaves us with him struggling with Maris Brood and Shadow Guards. erm

SunRazer
Drallig also lasted somewhat better against level 9 Vader than the B-team did against Palpatine, although Anakin was hindered.

cs_zoltan
1. Yet Shaak was explicitly in charge of the Temple not Drallig, RIP.

2. Dooku's opinion doesn't matter for shit considering he left the Order over a decade ago. He didn't even meet the padawan of his padawan until AotC laughing out loud

3. Lmao reiterating the same retarded points won't make it true. He still stomped Maris (and I don't recall the shadow gaurd atm so quote?). Besides he flat out states his skills improved since Nar Shaadda, as well as growing more powerful with each mission.

4. He did not lel. Drallig had help, Drallig was prepared, and he was still stomped. Never mind that Sidious > Anakin anyway.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Lmao, beating Drallig isn't better than beating Galen.

And Vader not only compares, but is better than Sidious smile

Darth Vader is the embodiment of all evil. Under the guidance of Emperor Palpatine-aka Darth Sidious- Lord Vader controls the Galactic Empire with an iron fist. He's an unparalleled lightsaber combatant and an even more capable Force wielder.
-- Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide


Vader was also ranked as a better Red Saber wielder in SW:AEYNTK eek!

Azronger
Originally posted by Beniboybling
confused

A ragdoll is a children's toy, obviously any comparison between Marek and one is going to be presented as a metaphorical. On the other hand, Vader was able to man handle Marek like a children's toy, and in the Wii version (of which their is no grounds for what you claim) fails to break his grip until the final moment. That seems like a sufficient feat of domination to me.

Fair enough, I guess.



No, I can't. Help me.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by SunRazer
There's no dismissal; I'm putting it in its place - it's obviously hyperbole. Being "skilled" doesn't mean shit at this level, lmao. And again, Vader beating him doesn't in any way put him up there with prime Anakin as you're implying. Anakin, probably more easily than Vader beat SK, beat an arguably superior swordsman than Galen in Cin Drallig, despite being hindered and using one hand because he was choking somebody else at the same time.
I agree with you that the people really thinking Vader beating someone with a sub-Kas'im level accolade puts him close to Anakin level is wrong... but come on. Drallig>Galen is ridiculous.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by SunRazer
Interesting. Do you have evidence to back up the first two claims of yours? Also, unless I'm mistaken, more recent sources have Jedi musing that Vader around this time to be slow.Dooku's described in LoE as the Order's most "agile" instructor, I assume that means he's one of the best. Not sure about Windu, but I recall him sparring with Kenobi. And Dooku had lessons on lightsaber combat in the Great Holocron I believe, but I'll have to look into that. Olin's remarks being from a 2007 book, which is fairly recent. Dark Lord (2005) has him being described as "lightning-fast".

I never said anything about them being identical. In fact I'd argue Sidious was faster in LotS seeing as well as growing more powerful the Lylek Queen & her horde were a greater threat. Moreover as far from "never wavering from his position of superiority" the Queen had Palpy quite literally on his back, and certainly he didn't toy with his opponents.

Vader's suit restricting his mobility and Lucas describing him as a crippled half robot is to state the obvious, but rather redundant in proving Vader to be slower than Maul, Dooku or anyone else. Fact remains he is still preternaturally fast, and through superior augmentation, could be faster than any of them.

It proves nothing concrete and Vader's superior speed is demonstrated in TFU II. And Zoltan is correct in pointing out it to be circumstantial. Marek used Dun Moch to undermine his concentration and his resolve, giving him the victory, before that Vader managed to land two glancing hits. TFU II further indicating that Vader underestimated him in that duel. And once again if Vader had notably improved, Starkiller would have noted it.

Fair enough, though that's one of several.

Well first we have to account for Dooku's greater Force augmentation, which plays a significant part in the majority of which you've referred. We are assessing the sheer skill by which he was able to compete with Vader, in which respect Mace regarded Kenobi as his peer and was indeed outperformed by him against Grievous. I'd say that puts him in his league, as does the Count shitting his pants over his Soresu reveal. And as far as RotS being an outlier is concerned, I'll address that later.

In regards to how they compare to Anakin, amazingly the junior novelisation is wrong, Gillard puts Anakin at a 9, so he's surpassed the Count too, whereas with his immense power stifled on Mustafar, Anakin & Kenobi were indeed described as evenly matched.

Beniboybling
The point isn't that Dooku succumbs to Anakin's strength consistently, only repeatedly, in which respect Vader being much stronger means Dooku will be succumbing much more often, and to much greater effect, or rather he's in for a butt-blasting. thumb up

Again it might not have been so much a big deal then, it will be against a far stronger opponent.

But no I wouldn't say that at all. And I'm not sure how you fathomed that from his expression of strain, not surprise (which makes no sense given he just overpowered him), before resorting to creating distraction to escape, while (maybe) holding back his blade for a meaningless split-second. Later Dooku uses his Magnaguards to force Anakin to break off, before he can push any meaningful advantage. So that's not a very fair example. Regardless your wrong:

https://i.imgflip.com/1lviy3.gif

We see Anakin leaning forward and his blade getting larger with proximity. Guy can't even hold him back for 1 second. Sad. smile

And naturally this excuse loses all weight when it came to their second engagement in which Anakin overpowers him, again.
These added contexts don't hold water at all I'm afraid, if Dooku underestimated Anakin he wouldn't have brought four elite Magnaguards as backup. He's already noted how Anakin's skills had grown significantly between AotC and the TCW movie, despite only a few months having passed, Anakin having in AotC already demonstrated surprising power and skill. We are two years into the war now, and Anakin possessed the immense potential of the Chosen One, common sense dictates he's advanced dramatically, and Dooku has a least a bit of this. Moreover Anakin's reputation would precede him, and with Dooku being privy to the intimate details of Anakin's private life this reputation would certainly have reached his ears. He has little excuse to underestimate Anakin, and from his approach it is clear to me that he did not.

Nah he threw him off with telekinesis, I realise this wasn't clear from the gif. And like I said, Vader > Enraged Anakin. That should be quite obvious given in rage mode he couldn't fully overpower Barriss whereas Vader almost disarmed Marek with his opening salvo. Though I'll overlook the fact that from Anakin looking all mean you've determined he was bloodlusted. laughing out loud

And while we're on the topic I should also add:

https://i.imgflip.com/1lvjkj.gif

Had that been Vader he'd have lost his nose. smile

Really? I thought having the high ground was a good thing. hmm

And my point is that those examples you've raised don't prove the others to be outliers. Though it also makes sense that with frequent encounters Dooku would get better at predicting and handling him, that's certainly the approach they took with Obi and Maul.

The RotS novel is both the primary novelisation and the novelisation line-edited by Lucas himself. It's absolutely the more reliable source. You argue that the junior novel more closely aligns with the film and yet the scene in which Anakin and Dooku fought "down the long length of the room" doesn't occur anywhere in the film, instead we get Anakin driving Dooku up the staircase and at one point blowing threw Dooku's guard, a few seconds of inconclusive fighting and then an extended period of Anakin shoving his lightsaber up Dooku's nethers. It doesn't hold water.

Finally while the primary novelisations depiction of Anakin in this fight closely aligns with Gillard's description of Anakin as "unbeatable" and the most powerful Jedi ever. The junior novelisation's depiction of Anakin as only Dooku's equal, does not.

The adult novelisation depicts a scenario in which Anakin and Kenobi off-balance Dooku under which circumstances he gets ploughed. In the movie Dooku's composure goes unshaken (and thanks to TCW is experienced fighting them) and is able to seemingly hold his own. I say seemingly because in the end its all just a flashy lightshow, from the movies alone you might infer that Dooku and Yoda were fighting evenly, and yet secondary sources are unanimous in describing the Count as outclassed. The other points you've raised are either present in the novelisation or not present in the film.

Regardless by the stipulation of the OP, Legends takes precedence anyway. eek!

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Azronger
No, I can't. Help me. https://img.fireden.net/tg/image/1447/12/1447127090876.jpg

Well for starters Starkiller was not lit up like a fairy lamp as before, which is also customarily how major Oneness states are depicted in Legends. And though one could argue it was simply not mentioned already the comparison is circumspect. Secondly Starkiller did not die, whereas releasing "all the power of the Force" in TFU killed him.

Now to address the similarities you've drawn, first that dying brings out the best in him, yes it's a reference to the aforementioned feat, but that's all it is, a reference, Starkiller no means of knowing whether or not he's about to phase into Oneness, he's merely reassuring himself that death is not something to be scared of - the fact that again he did not die, but instead emerged relatively unscathed, only serving to highlight how this instance things ended up different.

Finally the fact that he unleashed "all the power of the Force within him" only proves it was a feat of maximum effort, whether or not it was a state of Oneness only determines how much Force energy that would have been.

cs_zoltan
Starkiller's frigate busting wasn't any more Oneness than Dooku tossing a table laughing out loud

Kurk
There are plenty of instances in TCW where Dooku over-powers Anakin in saberlocks. Look at Oba Diah and the end of the Naboo fight(s).

Also you can't say Dooku brought 4 magnaguards with him because he was scared; the goal was to capture Anakin from the start, not kill him.

Beniboybling
Nah Dooku's a pussy. smile

Azronger
Originally posted by Beniboybling
https://img.fireden.net/tg/image/1447/12/1447127090876.jpg

Well for starters Starkiller was not lit up like a fairy lamp as before, which is also customarily how major Oneness states are depicted in Legends. And though one could argue it was simply not mentioned already the comparison is circumspect. Secondly Starkiller did not die, whereas releasing "all the power of the Force" in TFU killed him.

He died because Palpatine killed him. It's stated in the novel he didn't feel his own attack, yet still saw it. If he didn't feel it, then it obviously couldn't have hit him, and if he saw it, then he was obviously alive as the blast went off.



-The Force Unleashed

It also lists people who were engulfed in the explosion, and there is no mention of Galen. The only explanation that remains is that the Emperor killed him with lightning. Thus, this cannot be used as evidence against my case.

And yeah, simply because he wasn't mentioned as glowing doesn't mean it didn't happen. Also, not every Oneness feat is described as the user glowing, so again, that can't be used to dismiss my case. For example:



-Jedi Trial



If you want to dismiss it on the basis that it is not explicitly stated, then I guess you have a point, but I'd disagree. Personally, I'd say the implications are strong enough to count it as a state of Oneness. Sure, you can say Starkiller didn't know it was going to happen, but he didn't know it was going to happen the first time either. He simply embraced the Force as fully as he could and as a result entered Oneness. Here Starkiller is embracing the Force just as fully and has the exact same mindset and drive to save his loved one, so why wouldn't he enter Oneness here?

SunRazer
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
1. Yet Shaak was explicitly in charge of the Temple not Drallig, RIP.

2. Dooku's opinion doesn't matter for shit considering he left the Order over a decade ago. He didn't even meet the padawan of his padawan until AotC laughing out loud

3. Lmao reiterating the same retarded points won't make it true. He still stomped Maris (and I don't recall the shadow gaurd atm so quote?). Besides he flat out states his skills improved since Nar Shaadda, as well as growing more powerful with each mission.

4. He did not lel. Drallig had help, Drallig was prepared, and he was still stomped. Never mind that Sidious > Anakin anyway.

1. So what if she was in charge of the Temple defense? In what way does that stop Drallig from being part of it all the same? The fact that he's head of all those Temple security forces may make him obliged to remain in the Temple as he was throughout the War. Alternatively, as I said, he might've just been staying to train the padawans, which he was doing throughout the War despite being one of the Order's top swordsmen as per Insider #87.

2. Actually, that attests to Cin's skill as of TPM alone, since the B-team were already big game by then, IIRC, and Cin has some time to grow as well (albeit probably less than the B-team). And obviously Dooku not meeting Anakin until AotC/disliking him personally is the reason for him excluding Anakin. All the same, his citation of Drallig's skill remains impressive; we know that by TPM alone he belongs in the upper echelons of duelists and would pose a reasonable threat to Grievous at least. It doesn't definitively put Drallig above them but it helps.

3. He was put on the backfoot immediately against Maris, then stalled with Soresu before switching to Juyo to overwhelm her (she was unfamiliar with Juyo and thus couldn't counter it). There's no stomp there. For the Shadow Guards, there's one where Galen nearly gets knocked flat by one of their strikes, but here's them fighting back and forth which suggests that Galen couldn't beat the Guard easily:



And at the end of the day, the degree to which he improved is entirely arbitrary. We just know he did. In what way does that put him above Shaak? He was floundering against her, IIRC.

4. lol Saesee fell after watching Agen die, and both failed to block a single strike; Kit himself blocked one or two before Mace saved him from another blow (he would've died then) and then he fell in another one or two strikes. Cin at least parried two or three blows straight. The B-team's performance was worse except possibly Kit's.

Palpatine's only better because Anakin was hindered vs Drallig. Otherwise, per Gillard, the difference between level 9's comes down the specific circumstances of the fight alone. At this point, per Gillard, Anakin is unbeatable (so is Palpatine). They're even; Anakin was just hindered at this point.

Drallig wasn't prepared for shit. He was fighting clones until Anakin came; it's not like he set up a specific trap for Vader or anything. If anything, the fact that Drallig was fighting clones immediately before Skywalker would've allowed Anakin to start the fight on his terms, which if anything puts Drallig at more of a disadvantage, but I won't press the point.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Dooku's described in LoE as the Order's most "agile" instructor, I assume that means he's one of the best. Not sure about Windu, but I recall him sparring with Kenobi. And Dooku had lessons on lightsaber combat in the Great Holocron I believe, but I'll have to look into that. Olin's remarks being from a 2007 book, which is fairly recent. Dark Lord (2005) has him being described as "lightning-fast".

When were Kai Huddora's comments?



Well, naturally, he was threatened because he was holding back so much. The novel's ending implies that he was never in any real danger.



Augmentation you've yet to prove. He may be faster than Jedi Dooku, but so is Sith Dooku per Labyrinth of Evil. He may be faster than Obi-Wan but so is Dooku per The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader.

And even if he was faster than Dooku, is there any reason to believe that it'd be anything more than a minuscule difference and thus an irrelevant edge?



It seems as if the disparity being depicted between them in TFU II would suggest that Vader could've beaten Galen in TFU before the Dun Moch, especially since he caught Galen off guard with that opening move that nearly broke his defence entirely.

Vader underestimating Starkiller for a second time in a row? lmao



Right. So again, what establishes Vader as being a match for Dooku or more skilled than Dooku as of 3BBY? Three years later, he's still only marginally more skilled than Ben Kenobi, who's a pale shadow of his RotS self. So there's no comparison with Tyranus there.



That's wrong. Gillard says he's a 9 only after joining the dark side; prior to that, he's still an 8, just better than Obi-Wan.

And obviously Obi-Wan is in Dooku's league in that they're both level 8's, but that doesn't mean there can't be a disparity. Dooku shat his pants because he was taken off-guard as much as it was because of how good they were, and again, that's from the RotS novel which doesn't happen anywhere else. Equally outlier sources have Dooku one-shotting Obi-Wan without even looking at him. laughing out loud

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The point isn't that Dooku succumbs to Anakin's strength consistently, only repeatedly, in which respect Vader being much stronger means Dooku will be succumbing much more often, and to much greater effect, or rather he's in for a butt-blasting. thumb up

Again it might not have been so much a big deal then, it will be against a far stronger opponent.

Perhaps. Most of the people who duel Vader are actually weaker than Dooku, so it won't be that big of a problem. Recall that the Count successfully lasted against Yoda, who brings to bear greater speed, strength and skill than Vader - all by noticeable margins. I do expect that he'll strain against Vader, but now we have to decide whether that'll be enough to counter the Count's edge in skill.



He seems to be staring at his blade in a brief moment of disbelief before steeling himself, at which point Anakin's blade is halted.



Hmm.. fair. Didn't notice that. Although Anakin's clearly angry then and has good reason to be after the Magnaguards reveal themselves. smile



I don't see how any of this changes the fact that Dooku could've been overconfident. As a Sith, he rates himself highly and it's entirely plausible that he didn't believe that Anakin could catch up to him so quickly.



The Barriss thing I blame on TCW smile

And no, I determined that he was still angry on the back of the fact that he had just come off a full-bloodlust assault on Dooku.



That's irrelevant when they're leaping on top of you with a two-handed strike and you're blocking behind your head with one hand. erm



Perhaps.

SunRazer
Just because there are a few discrepancies between the junior novel and the film (as there'd be between any two renditions of the fight) doesn't change the fact that it aligns with the film far moreso than the adult novel. That aside, even if you interpret the RotS novel as a more reliable source, the fact of the matter is that it portrays Anakin better than in anything else - he's faster and stronger than Yoda for gods' sake; that's well beyond Vader also.

Secondly, no, Gillard says that Anakin's a 9 and the best etc. as a Sith Lord. He says that prior to tapping into the dark side (as he does in the final portion of the duel with Dooku), Anakin's an 8, so that only gives us more reason to believe that he was only a match for the Count.

If Legends takes precedence that would mean that there's no specific depiction of the fight that's outright superior in value.

Also, where does Anakin blow through Dooku's guard in the film? It seems to me that Dooku is depicted as the strongest of the three until Anakin gets enraged.



Both the film and junior novel show Dooku being composed and appearing at ease in deflecting all of their strikes; this is supported by SW.com and TCSWE claiming that Dooku proved a formidable opponent to them. The RotS novel sits alone with its Anakin raping Dooku solo and the Count shitting himself at the sight of their Soresu/Djem So.

Secondary sources aren't unanimous in describing Tyranus as outclassed against Yoda at all. laughing out loud

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Azronger
He died because Palpatine killed him. It's stated in the novel he didn't feel his own attack, yet still saw it. If he didn't feel it, then it obviously couldn't have hit him, and if he saw it, then he was obviously alive as the blast went off.

It also lists people who were engulfed in the explosion, and there is no mention of Galen. The only explanation that remains is that the Emperor killed him with lightning. Thus, this cannot be used as evidence against my case."The apprentice felt himself leaving his body again. Or was his body leaving him this time? He felt ripped apart by the energy that had flowed through him. Every cell was in shock; every fiber shook. The fire on his face possessed no heat at all. His limbs felt as distant as the farthest arms of the galaxy. He was amazed there was enough left of him to think at all."

hmm

FYI: Palpatine wasn't trying to kill him.

A fair point. But they were written by the same author, so it strains common sense that he would choose to describe it differently. Moreover, Galen did glow when he entered Oneness, so it that respect, it doesn't appear to be at all an identical state.

I dismiss it on the basis that Starkiller survived, and because likeness does not mean sameness.

And my point their wasn't that because Galen didn't know it was going to happen, it wasn't going to happen, but because he didn't know what was going to happen, he couldn't have known was that going to happen.

Because his body wasn't being pushed to its physical limits perhaps? And because Oneness is not handed out like candies?

SunRazer
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I agree with you that the people really thinking Vader beating someone with a sub-Kas'im level accolade puts him close to Anakin level is wrong... but come on. Drallig>Galen is ridiculous.

Well, I rank Drallig pretty highly and still said it was arguable; they're around the same level, at least, and Anakin beat Drallig far more casually than Vader did Galen despite being mentally conflicted as per the RotS junior novel.

Also, doesn't Galen get that shitty accolade as of his fight with Kota? If so, his subsequent performance against Darth Desolous' simalucrum debunks it entirely. laughing out loud

Azronger
Originally posted by Beniboybling
"The apprentice felt himself leaving his body again. Or was his body leaving him this time? He felt ripped apart by the energy that had flowed through him. Every cell was in shock; every fiber shook. The fire on his face possessed no heat at all. His limbs felt as distant as the farthest arms of the galaxy. He was amazed there was enough left of him to think at all."

hmm

FYI: Palpatine wasn't trying to kill him.

A fair point. But they were written by the same author, so it strains common sense that he would choose to describe it differently. Moreover, Galen did glow when he entered Oneness, so it that respect, it doesn't appear to be at all an identical state.

I dismiss it on the basis that Starkiller survived, and because likeness does not mean sameness.

And my point their wasn't that because Galen didn't know it was going to happen, it wasn't going to happen, but because he didn't know what was going to happen, he couldn't have known was that going to happen.

Because his body wasn't being pushed to its physical limits perhaps? And because Oneness is not handed out like candies?

Fair enough, then.

Rebel95
Vader wins in a good fight

Beniboybling
Originally posted by SunRazer
When were Kai Huddora's comments?Don't know 'im.

Sure but under what circumstances could Maul or Savage accomplish a similar feat? Maybe if Sheev tied his hands behind his back and hopped on one leg? I think it should be obvious that the Lylek horde were the bigger threat. A handful were a threat to a fortified city, the brothers would be eaten alive.

In which respect, why would Palpatine try harder against a lesser opponent?

I have proven it friend, you just haven't fully accepted the truth yet. smile

And sure but if we assume for a moment that he is, this is 18BBY Vader, he's got almost 20 years of growth on Dooku's 13 - as well as significantly greater potential - in which he essentially rebuilt himself as a combatant and a Force wielder. I'd say that would afford a notable edge, as would rivalling the speed of Savage blitzing Maul toying Sidious, and no selling Starkiller with an impenetrable defense.

And all this just feeds into the TCW Anakin comparison, who's inferior speed to Dooku often gave a way of circumventing Anakin's strength, with that option eliminated the path to victory for the Count narrows further, while his disadvantages steadily accrue. sad

Correct. thumb up

And he only underestimated him once, lel.

In skill? Well being more skilled than Ben puts him close to Dooku already imo. "Pale shadow of his former self" is a holistic appraisal that refers to the mean of his weaknesses, most of which I'd argue were physical, and the source supports such a reading. Whereas as a duelist he remained "formidable" and the manner in which he decimated Maul only highlights that. Personally, I don't see Dooku outfencing Obi-Wan at all easily.

Besides that he handedly held off a new and improved version of Grievous in Karbin; is a better duelist than Galen Marek who before his prime matched an amped Shaak Ti, one of the Jedi Order's finest swords beings; and has retooled his style to be an unpredictable combination of all forms of combat, and in that respect is arguably more technically adroit than he was as an Anakin, if lacking in as much power, speed and mobility, who was at least as talented as Dooku. Like I said, he's more than capable of contending with a duelist of Dooku's caliber, and especially if Quinlan Vos was able to accomplish such a feat.

Can you clarify on that? Gillard says that Anakin is in Episode III a 9, and that's he gone up 3, 4 levels since Episode II, he doesn't specify when, and goes on to say the key to that is the dark side. Anakin is already heavily flirting with the dark side at the beginning of the movie, and before that. Not that it matters much, as a comparison that accounts for Force augmentation is unfairly stacked against Kenobi from the beginning.

And sure he was, that's the only reason I'm not arguing Kenobi is better. The only outlier here being your understanding. eek!

And Dooku one-shotting him with a kick is because he was faster and stronger (and Kenobi aggression is his weakness). Like I said Force augmentation has to be taken into account here, yet you don't seem to be doing that at all... So is that all the prove there is that Dooku is more skilled than Kenobi? If so I remain unconvinced.

Beniboybling
I'm not sure what your point is there. Vader is not the sum of the people he's duelled? And Dooku held out against Yoda for a total of 30 seconds, which is great, but it doesn't prove Dooku will be handling his strength, only that it will take Vader a bit longer to beat him. thumb up

I would maintain that Vader's advantages are much broader here, strength, speed, stamina and Force abilities, and the Count's weaknesses more clear. Granted, Vader has never fought someone whose actually a better duelist than him bar perhaps Luke, so we don't have much of a measure in that respect, but Dooku has lost to duelists who are worse than him. Moreover I'd argue the disparity in skill is marginal, not profound, and their is a greater precedent for skill being the lesser of the factors in engagements like this. In short Dooku may be a brilliant duelist, but Vader will power through.

Disbelief? Or concern? Like I said, Anakin's just proven exactly how strong he is, on the other hand Anakin's blade appears to be getting awfully close to cleaving off the Count's shoulder. Hence why he resorts to telekinesis, and looks rather worried while doing it.

Another body part that would have been lost to Darth. smile

https://68.media.tumblr.com/0a093c51ce16f1466030cae0d6873bee/tumblr_on8hpqUSFd1w6jsdfo1_400.gif

Vader will be angrier. smile

Perhaps but being overconfident can't really be conflated with taking your opponent lightly. Dooku was overconfident against Yoda, are we therefore to argue he was holding back? Dooku can go all in and think he'll be winning, and still be overconfident for thinking that. And even then he'd quickly realise exactly what he's dealing with, and kick in to second gear.

Well I hate to say Nova but...

https://i.imgflip.com/1ewjma.gif

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/3919133-7319964808-21391.jpg

TCW has you by the balls. smile

And I was referring to his "blood-lusted assault" on Dooku when I made that comment.

On top from... below? Perhaps not, he only gets a few inches on him at best. On the other hand yes, Anakin being on an incline when Dooku pushes him back is absolutely important. Though I guess Dooku gets some props for blocking a strike from a marginal height in the first place.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Just because there are a few discrepancies between the junior novel and the film (as there'd be between any two renditions of the fight) doesn't change the fact that it aligns with the film far moreso than the adult novel. That aside, even if you interpret the RotS novel as a more reliable source, the fact of the matter is that it portrays Anakin better than in anything else - he's faster and stronger than Yoda for gods' sake; that's well beyond Vader also.

Secondly, no, Gillard says that Anakin's a 9 and the best etc. as a Sith Lord. He says that prior to tapping into the dark side (as he does in the final portion of the duel with Dooku), Anakin's an 8, so that only gives us more reason to believe that he was only a match for the Count.I don't disagree, that's why I don't dismiss the adult novel. thumb up But your argument is that because it's in the film it's superior to that novelisation, yet the part you reference isn't in the film, so that doesn't really work as evidence. It doesn't align with the adult novelisation either, and it doesn't align with TCW. So it's either an outlier in itself, or it's simply incorrect. And I never attempted to use RotS Anakin as proof of anything other than the invalidity of the junior text.

As far as Gillard is concerned, Dooku notes in the novelisation that Anakin's already "half-Sith" and himself states that there are disparities within the tiers, and Gillard describes him as "unbeatable" in general terms, so no, besides this one source I wouldn't really say we have any reason to believe Anakin and Dooku are equals.

The primary novelisation line-edited by Lucas would take precedence yeah. thumb up

Here (the third strike):

https://i.imgflip.com/1lwmo2.gif

He only really appears stronger then he plays Anakin and Kenobi off one another, or otherwise uses leverage. In that respect, coming off only the better fencer imo.

Composed? Sure. At ease? Nah. The script itself notes he was tiring. And Dooku was a formidable opponent in the novelisation as well, folding Anakin in half and KO'ing Yoda would imply that. As would almost winning through Dun Moch before Palpatine's intervention. Nor does being formidable remotely imply he was handling them with ease.

And those are tertiary sources you dolt. I'm referring to the novel, the young adult novel, the comic and the script.

samappo
If Vader is a 9 (pre-suit) and he already is the best swordsman in the Jedi Order as an 8, that means he could beat Yoda. But although at the time Sidious was still unbeatable (as per Gillard) he definitely could fight Sidious head on and if he did beat Kenobi he probably would be able to kill Sidious.

This speaks volumes about his force potential.

1. Kenobi during the duel on Mustafar knows that Vader will kill him, unless he ****s up, which he did. That's immensely impressive considering Kenobi was the reigning master of Soresu and a true master of Soresu could not have his/her defenses penetrated except maybe by Juyo. That's insane for Vader, since he was a Form V Djem So specialist.

2. Gillard calls Sidious a master of every form and every weapon, and surpassed Yoda as a duelist. The fact that Vader could match and surpass Sidious demonstrates an insane force potential that amplifies his abilities so much that he goes from an 8 to a 9 that surpasses the greatest duelist in the movies according to Gillard.

Kurk
Originally posted by Beniboybling


Here (the third strike):

https://i.imgflip.com/1lwmo2.gif

He only really appears stronger then he plays Anakin and Kenobi off one another, or otherwise uses leverage. In that respect, coming off only the better fencer imo.



He's not blowing through Dooku's defenses. Makashi redirects an attack; not block it. Skywalker starts the third strike as an downward attack and ends with his saber going to his left.

TheIndyJedi
V-man

Darth Thor
Anakin > Dooku by ROTS obviously. Theres no debate to be had there.

They were more on par during TCW due to Dookus superior control of the Force.

Still ROTS Dooku was capable of some serious power punches as he showed twice - once against each opponent. Opponents being like the 2nd (3rd at worst) and 4th most powerful Jedi.

DarthPlaguis12
In the novels Dooku is too old to keep up with vos and Anakin so I give it to Vader

darthbane77
Vader, closely.

The Merchant
Dooku mid dif.

victreebelvictr
Barely vader, barely. He can tank through lightning at lleast for a little bit.

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