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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ6Ta-Ovx4c&t=8m48s

Killing two Jedi in one swing. Pretty solid, tbh. Goes in line with the following:

"The clone troopers are methodical, but Skywalker is merciless. He wields his lightsaber like a scythe, cutting down anyone foolish enough to get in his way. Even experienced Jedi Masters fall, for their expertise in the Force is nothing before the raw power Anakin can unleash."

Damn, I miss batlefront 2

This isn't surprising.

1. Anakin was a practitioner of both variants of Form V; the Shien and Djem So variants. Masters of Djem So were theoretically able to contend with masters of all 7 forms due to how well rounded the form was in both offense and defense, thence allowing him to take on Cin Drallig quite easily. Granted, Drallig was more an instructor than proficient duelist in my opinion.

2. Imagine Grandmaster Luke at his most powerful, double that force potential and that's Anakin's force potential.

Anakin's potential was stated to be double of Palpatine's, not Luke's.

Also, no, Drallig is described as having nearly unparalleled skills with a blade and was mentioned alongside the best by Dooku in LoE as someone that Grievous couldn't use power blows against. He's not only a master duelist but one of the very best; it's just that Anakin at this point is Palpatine-tier and can mow through master swordsmen like fodder.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Anakin's potential was stated to be double of Palpatine's, not Luke's.

My bad, that's what I meant.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Also, no, Drallig is described as having nearly unparalleled skills with a blade and was mentioned alongside the best by Dooku in LoE as someone that Grievous couldn't use power blows against. He's not only a master duelist but one of the very best; it's just that Anakin at this point is Palpatine-tier and can mow through master swordsmen like fodder.

Fair enough, haven't read LoE. Wasn't aware that he was considered unparalleled, though this is obviously an exaggeration. He might be close to Dooku, Mace and Yoda, but not on that level. Slightly below probably.

What does Palpatine-tier mean?

I said the quote claimed that he was "nearly unparalleled", not unparalleled, which is not an exaggeration. In either case, it's clear that he's a master duelist.

No, he's no on Yoda or Mace's level, but the point is that he's incredibly skilled. And indeed, any practitioner of Juyo is automatically one of the most skilled of Force wielders (Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords) and a high-level master of at least two other forms (Insider #62: Fightsaber).

And Anakin's a level 9 per Nick Gillard, which puts him on the same level as Yoda and Sidious as swordsmen. Maul, Dooku, Obi-Wan and even Mace Windu are all 8's (Mace borders on 9, possibly Dooku also), and there's supposed to be a huge disparity between each level.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I said the quote claimed that he was "nearly unparalleled", not unparalleled, which is not an exaggeration. In either case, it's clear that he's a master duelist.

Sorry, misread. He is a master duelist, and my statement that a master of Form V can contend with masters of all seven forms due to its versatility still holds. I can't remember the source though.

Originally posted by SunRazer No, he's no on Yoda or Mace's level, but the point is that he's incredibly skilled. And indeed, any practitioner of Juyo is automatically one of the most skilled of Force wielders (Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords) and a high-level master of at least two other forms (Insider #62: Fightsaber).

I'll agree to that.

Originally posted by SunRazer And Anakin's a level 9 per Nick Gillard, which puts him on the same level as Yoda and Sidious as swordsmen. Maul, Dooku, Obi-Wan and even Mace Windu are all 8's (Mace borders on 9, possibly Dooku also), and there's supposed to be a huge disparity between each level.

So I keep hearing about Gillard's ratings, what are they, do they pertain to lightsaber skills only? Is there a list of all of his ratings?

Also I'm assuming Grandmaster Luke is the only 10?

There's no official ranking for Luke, but I'd put him at 9 too.

10 means perfection, in which Luke isn't.

Yeah, Luke is a 9. The best of them all, but still "only" a nine.

Is there a list somewhere compiling all of the characters he has mentioned in regards to their power levels?

And is the rating exclusive to lightsaber combat?

I don't think there's a thread with the list, but I can type them for you:

TIER NINE:
- Anakin Skywalker (DS ROTS)
- Darth Sidious (ROTS)
- Yoda (ROTS)
- Mace Windu (ROTS)

TIER EIGHT:
- Mace Windu (ROTS)
- Anakin Skywalker (LS ROTS)
- Dooku (ROTS)
- Obi-Wan Kenobi (ROTS)
- Darth Maul (TPM)

TIER SEVEN:
- Kit Fisto (ROTS)
- Obi-Wan Kenobi (DS TPM)

TIER SIX:
- Obi-Wan Kenobi (LS TPM)

...

TIER ONE:
- Jedi Youngling

These are the only ones we know for sure. The rest are up for debate.

Thank you mate.

Quick question though, Mace is both in Tiers 8 and 9, I'm assuming that he's bordering in between?

Also, is this force powers and lightsaber skills, or one or the other?

And I wish he mentioned Qui Gon's tier.

something that should be pointed out, there is a massive difference within the tiers, with higher tiers, being larger than smaller ones

Qui-Gon would definitely be a 7 or an 8. It's never clarified whether these ratings are sabers-only or all-out. And yes, the gap between 8 and 9 is much larger than the gap between 7 and 8, which is much larger than the 6/7 gap, so on so forth.

Thanks for the info.

Personally I'd put Jinn as low 8, slightly below Maul. The novelisation of TPM clearly shows that Jinn was a match for Maul. In fact the Sith barely escaped being cut down by Jinn's onslaught at one point near the end of the duel of fates.

Originally posted by samappo
Thanks for the info.

Personally I'd put Jinn as low 8, slightly below Maul. The novelisation of TPM clearly shows that Jinn was a match for Maul. In fact the Sith barely escaped being cut down by Jinn's onslaught at one point near the end of the duel of fates.
to be fair, that was from kenobi's perspective, so its subjective

I mean how subjective could it be. Maul jumped in the last millisecond while cornered by Jinn. Anyway, after that happened, Jinn had pretty much used everything.

Imo a Jinn 5-10 years younger fighting Maul on neutral ground would win.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Qui-Gon would definitely be a 7 or an 8.
I'd say a 7.

I'd say so too, but sometimes (especially in canon) he seems much more important/relevant than he does at other times, so I leave it open tbh.

If he's a 7, he's the highest 7 on the list. He could match TPM Windu as a swordsman according to the novelisation. Granted, there is a major gap between TPM and Windu's height in RoTS as Tier 8/9.

I'd say that during TPM Mace and Jinn were either both high 7's or low 8's. And Mace in RoTS became a high 8/low 9.

Thoughts?

Originally posted by samappo
He could match TPM Windu as a swordsman according to the novelisation.
Another YouTube lie. No where is this stated (trust me, we looked). The myth likely was derived from:

"During his tenure at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, he spars with superior lightsaber duelists such as Qui-Gon Jinn and Mace Windu."

The quote doesn't establish any connection between Jinn and Mace besides that they're superior to Bondara.

Someone on Wookieepedia likely misinterpreted incorrectly, wrote it in the article, and it spread ever since.

TPM Windu, by the way, is stated to be, alongside Yoda and TPM Dooku, more skilled with a blade than any Jedi before them.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Another YouTube lie. No where is this stated (trust me, we looked). The myth likely was derived from:

"During his tenure at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, he spars with superior lightsaber duelists such as Qui-Gon Jinn and Mace Windu."

The quote doesn't establish any connection between Jinn and Mace besides that they're superior to Bondara.

Someone on Wookieepedia likely misinterpreted incorrectly, wrote it in the article, and it spread ever since.

Ah, my bad.

Still, there's his fight with Maul to examine. Maul is an 8. Jinn matched him blow to blow. It's heavily implied, at least from what I can remember when I read the novel, that Jinn's main disadvantage during that fight was his fatigue and age. He was around 60 I think.

If he was younger I think he could have taken TPM Maul. Maybe 5-10 years younger? I guess this places Jinn around a high 7 at least, or a low 8, since he could duel Darth Maul who was a definitive 8 for 15-20 minutes before being cornered into an area that proved to be the main weakness of his style. Even then Jinn's performance was impressive, since even though he was restricted in the generator room, he almost killed Maul, according to Kenobi anyway.

Thoughts?

Lolno.

Force-users get stronger with age.

He even had time to use Serenity.

I find the Jinn vs Maul depictions varying. I don't recall which specifically says which, but I do know several sources (since there is a comic, a novel, a junior novel, numerous from Maul's perspective, etc.) depicting Maul as dominating Jinn, whereas others suggest, like you're saying here, that it was relatively close. The Essential Guide to Characters further supporters your case, anyhow, by specifically emphasizing that it was Jinn's age, not his skill, that led to his defeat versus Maul. However, his performances versus Xantos never impressed me much, which is all I have to gauge Jinn off otherwise, so I'd still favor Maul even in Jinn's prime. Maul's skills have been deemed perfect by Palpatine, has seemingly more raw power than Mother Talzin, was trained in the most brutal and extreme martial arts and lightsaber styles, etc. It's hard to get someone better than that.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Lolno.

Force-users get stronger with age.

He even had time to use Serenity.
Jinn's connection to the Force might have increased, but that doesn't mean his combat skills did as well.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Jinn's connection to the Force might have increased, but that doesn't mean his combat skills did as well.

^

As Jinn got older, I'd say the last 5-10 years, he had to change how he used Ataru to compensate his age, phasing out acrobatics and relying more on power blows etc.

Originally posted by samappo

Quick question though, Mace is both in Tiers 8 and 9, I'm assuming that he's bordering in between?
Darkside! Mace is a 9, Lightside! Mace a 8 bordering on 9.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Darkside! Mace is a 9, Lightside! Mace a 8 bordering on 9.

Thanks for the clarification.

Originally posted by samappo
Also, is this force powers and lightsaber skills, or one or the other?

It refers to lightsaber combat, but with augmentation.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I find the Jinn vs Maul depictions varying. I don't recall which specifically says which, but I do know several sources (since there is a comic, a novel, a junior novel, numerous from Maul's perspective, etc.) depicting Maul as dominating Jinn, whereas others suggest, like you're saying here, that it was relatively close. The Essential Guide to Characters further supporters your case, anyhow, by specifically emphasizing that it was Jinn's age, not his skill, that led to his defeat versus Maul. However, his performances versus Xantos never impressed me much, which is all I have to gauge Jinn off otherwise, so I'd still favor Maul even in Jinn's prime. Maul's skills have been deemed perfect by Palpatine, has seemingly more raw power than Mother Talzin, was trained in the most brutal and extreme martial arts and lightsaber styles, etc. It's hard to get someone better than that.

Earlier depictions had Maul dominating, but the most recent one in End Game by James Luceno had them as equals until Qui-Gon tired (on Tatooine, anyway).

TCSWE also claims that Qui-Gon couldn't "physically compete", which suggests that his skill is up there with Maul's.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
It refers to lightsaber combat, but with augmentation.

Cool thanks

Originally posted by SunRazer
Earlier depictions had Maul dominating, but the most recent one in End Game by James Luceno had them as equals until Qui-Gon tired (on Tatooine, anyway).

TCSWE also claims that Qui-Gon couldn't "physically compete", which suggests that his skill is up there with Maul's.

What makes it even more impressive is that Jinn didn't really go beyond Form IV, whereas Maul was a confirmed specialist in Juyo, Niman and at least one other form.

Is it possible to prove the ratings were approved of by lucas? If not, can they be ignored?

What do you mean, "approved"? Lucas is the one who made them up.

I find that unlikely. mmm

Originally posted by NewGuy01
What do you mean, "approved"? Lucas is the one who made them up.

When this rating system is brought up, it is always described as Gillard's system. Not Lucas's. Why do we pay attention to a system not created by Lucas?

Why do we pay attention to anything not made by Lucas then?

Gillard came up with them after extensive talks with Lucas.

Besides a detailed ranking of Saber fighting skills given to us in "The Making of ROTS" is probably pretty useful when discussing... you know... Star Wars saber fights.

The writer of a novel or someone who worked on the movie=/=as Lucas when making comments on their works (Considering Lucas made the universe to begin with). should we take statements about IIRC and GI being Ventress level seriously?

What is actually stated in a source book/Novel is in writing and official to the universe. If a writer came out tomorrow and said Shaak>Sidious. Would you take that seriously?

My point is this, if you are merely making off the cuff comments and you are not lucas, I don't care. If you put that into a official source its different, but until then, forget it.

Well, you know, that's just your opinion man.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Well, you know, that's just your opinion man.

10/10 best counter ever. I see now why people consider you to be such a marvelous debater

Originally posted by TheMuser
When this rating system is brought up, it is always described as Gillard's system. Not Lucas's. Why do we pay attention to a system not created by Lucas?

Probably because Lucas has to green-light everything in the films and because he himself appears to support a number of Gillard's rankings (Anakin and Sidious, especially).

Originally posted by SunRazer
Probably because Lucas has to green-light everything in the films and because he himself appears to support a number of Gillard's rankings (Anakin and Sidious, especially).

Unless you can prove Lucas knew about this rating system before Gillard brought it up, I don't think you can use this as evidence, also how does Lucas seem to support the system?

Gillard invented the rating system, but obviously he didn't make it up personally.

Gillard worked directly with Lucas during all of this. Gillard doesn't have the power to just decide which characters are better than others. All of this came from Lucas, obviously.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Gillard invented the rating system, but obviously he didn't make it up personally.

Gillard worked directly with Lucas during all of this. Gillard doesn't have the power to just decide which characters are better than others. All of this came from Lucas, obviously.

On what basis did Gillard not have the power to say who>who? wasn't this all in a random behind the scenes thing that was just talking about stuff? would he have had time to prepare? how do we know he isn't just talking crap?

What's with the retarded questions? The tier system was flaunted on official Star Wars websites and whatnot. It was Gillard's main thing, not some sidenote. You don't think he consulted with Lucas when he was making the lists while they were standing and talking to each other about how to work on the fights for months on end? Do you think Gillard went in his closet one day, wrote a list that Lucas didn't approve of despite consulting with Lucas constantly, and then somehow leaked it out to the official Star Wars website and documentaries hoping no one would notice? I also doubt it's a coincidence that Lucas established tiers for the Original Trilogy, and then tiers for the Prequel Trilogy popped up as well. Like, god damn. What's your issue with it anyway? Everything established in it is pretty damn obvious.

Originally posted by TheMuser
10/10 best counter ever. I see now why people consider you to be such a marvelous debater

Your shit arbitrary canon policy doesn't warrant a better reply. You have no basis to dismiss Gillard's ranking so that's that.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What's with the retarded questions? The tier system was flaunted on official Star Wars websites and whatnot. It was Gillard's main thing, not some sidenote. You don't think he consulted with Lucas when he was making the lists while they were standing and talking to each other about how to work on the fights for months on end? Do you think Gillard went in his closet one day, wrote a list that Lucas didn't approve of despite consulting with Lucas constantly, and then somehow leaked it out to the official Star Wars website and documentaries hoping no one would notice? I also doubt it's a coincidence that Lucas established tiers for the Original Trilogy, and then tiers for the Prequel Trilogy popped up as well. Like, god damn. What's your issue with it anyway? Everything established in it is pretty damn obvious.

Excellent, finally what I was asking for.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Your shit arbitrary canon policy doesn't warrant a better reply. You have no basis to dismiss Gillard's ranking so that's that.

I dismissed nothing. I asked for why this is such a accepted notion. You gave no details whatsoever and I am not going to accept something like this without cause.

I wish we also got rankings for Vader, Luke, and old Ben.

Gillard wrote the fights, so treating his system as baseless would mean dismissing all of the fights in the Prequel Trilogy. And there's some quotes floating around about Lucas not allowing anything in the films unless he personally accepted them, which I or someone else will try to find later.

And Lucas claims that Anakin's on Sidious' level and personally edited the RotS novel line-for-line, which has Anakin being the fastest and strongest Jedi even before his descent into the dark side. He also mentions in an interview that you can never get the better of Sidious in lightsaber combat. So there's definite support for Gillard's system there.